Steve Maxwell speaks out against fun

[sparkles]

I'm about 1/3 of the way though the interview and like others, I'm surprised at how warm and friendly Steve sounds. Just like your average guy, not at all the rigid, humorless religious zealot one would expect. And that, I guess, it part of what makes the lifestyle he describes so seductive to those with a similar religious mindset (and in some respects--specifically the debt-free living and slower pace--to even the most non-religious among us). I do think, however, that even the most devoted fans find they can't embrace what Steve advocates 100%; it's just too restrictive.

Here's one thing that's really got me thinking though. Clearly, based on what we've gleaned from their blog posts, endless happy photos, and overall philosophy, as well as what Steve indicates in the interview, they are NOT hurting financially and in fact appear to be fairly well-off so it would make sense that they'd have a rather tidy nest egg built up. So what happens to it? They don't appear to tithe, unless they tithe to themselves since they basically home church. They've given no indication in any of their writings (at least that I remember) that they give money to causes or charities they approve of. They live debt-free in an area of the country with a reasonable cost of living (unlike suburban NY where we have some of the highest property taxes in the nation and young people are leaving in droves because even two-income families can't afford to live here). They do live simply but quite well--Vitamixes, the bread mixer, Apple computers, iPhones, professional level Canon camera equipment and so on--this stuff doesn't come cheap but they're all long-lasting items. Steve doesn't strike me as the type to leave his kids an inheritance. That would be an entitlement in his mind and opposed to his work ethic. Nor do I think he'd provide the girls with a dowry, unless he gets desperate to marry them off. I would like to think he'd provide for Teri in some way in the event he predeceases her but you never know.

So climb on board the Idle Speculation Bus, FJers. Where do you think the money goes?

[WonderingInWA]

I'm about 1/3 of the way though the interview and like others, I'm surprised at how warm and friendly Steve sounds. Just like your average guy, not at all the rigid, humorless religious zealot one would expect. And that, I guess, it part of what makes the lifestyle he describes so seductive to those with a similar religious mindset (and in some respects--specifically the debt-free living and slower pace--to even the most non-religious among us). I do think, however, that even the most devoted fans find they can't embrace what Steve advocates 100%; it's just too restrictive.

Here's one thing that's really got me thinking though. Clearly, based on what we've gleaned from their blog posts, endless happy photos, and overall philosophy, as well as what Steve indicates in the interview, they are NOT hurting financially and in fact appear to be fairly well-off so it would make sense that they'd have a rather tidy nest egg built up. So what happens to it? They don't appear to tithe, unless they tithe to themselves since they basically home church. They've given no indication in any of their writings (at least that I remember) that they give money to causes or charities they approve of. They live debt-free in an area of the country with a reasonable cost of living (unlike suburban NY where we have some of the highest property taxes in the nation and young people are leaving in droves because even two-income families can't afford to live here). They do live simply but quite well--Vitamixes, the bread mixer, Apple computers, iPhones, professional level Canon camera equipment and so on--this stuff doesn't come cheap but they're all long-lasting items. Steve doesn't strike me as the type to leave his kids an inheritance. That would be an entitlement in his mind and opposed to his work ethic. Nor do I think he'd provide the girls with a dowry, unless he gets desperate to marry them off. I would like to think he'd provide for Teri in some way in the event he predeceases her but you never know.

So climb on board the Idle Speculation Bus, FJers. Where do you think the money goes?

Good question. I wouldn't think Stevie is the type to make investments involving the stock market, right? That would be ebil gambling. But he must be stashing his money somewhere and making some kind of return on it. I guess he knows enough about running a business that he can pour his earnings into the capital of his businesses and then sort-of launder it that way, right? I'm not very creative with understanding how it works when you own your own business, but I'm sure if there are loopholes to sheltering his income through his businesses, that's exactly what he's doing. I wonder if he pays Poor Sarah a salary?

[kpmom]

Re. Tithing; they've mentioned they support some ministers in poor countries. I forget what these charities are called, but he mentioned them in a Corner, and one of the Moody books mentioned it too.

He's also mentioned that Sarah has a nice nest egg, so apparently the sisters are given at least some of their earnings.

I'm wondering if they split the earnings as a %. A certain per centage goes to the family coffers, and another percentage goes to each "child". I think they all work under the family's Communication Concepts business.

[LucySnowe]

Some of it could be going towards the purchasing of houses for the sons? Or is it that the sons must, each themselves, have enough money to buy with cash upfront? If not, then it's possible Steve subsidises it, maybe in a 'I'm giving you a chunk of your inheritance now so you can bring home a bride' kind of way.

[danvillebelle]

"I'm about 1/3 of the way though the interview and like others, I'm surprised at how warm and friendly Steve sounds. Just like your average guy, not at all the rigid, humorless religious zealot one would expect. And that, I guess, it part of what makes the lifestyle he describes so seductive to those with a similar religious mindset (and in some respects--specifically the debt-free living and slower pace--to even the most non-religious among us). I do think, however, that even the most devoted fans find they can't embrace what Steve advocates 100%; it's just too restrictive. " - bolded emphasis mine

That is what happened with me. I first came across MOTH at a homeschool convention when I had four kids under 8 and I was homeschooling them. It is so enticing to a slightly disorganized mom...if I jut get all those little neon squares of paper in order, our lives will go smoothly! If the kids rotate their toys and play this for 30 minutes then that for 30 minutes, they'll be happy and well-behaved! I bought, tried and then subsequently chucked into the trash not one copy of MOTH, but two. I cannot function that way, and neither could my children.

Some of Teri's corners were helpful for me. I had suffered from depression in the past (and was suffering from it at the time, but was in denial) and could relate to a lot of what she said. I bought their audio CD series and it's true that they sound much friendlier and kinder than one would expect. My daughters liked the first few Moody books when they were younger (though the writing makes me cringe, it's so stilted and fake).

They lost me with Keeping Our Children's Hearts. Even for someone like me, a total homebody with pretty homebody kids, the level of isolation they call for was just bizarre to me. Also, not being involved with an established church but starting their own is a huge red flag. Steve is not an ordained minister or trained teacher, and simply reading the Bible every day for 40 years does not a qualified pastor make.

I think they started out with good intentions but now things have gone horribly wrong. Steve is drunk on the amount of power he has over his family and there is no way he'll give it up, so they have just turned more and more inward. Honestly, it surprises me that they lower themselves to mingle with common church folk, except the only way for them to make a living now according to their own philosophies is shilling their products.

[Dru]

I have always thought that controlling his family is fun to Steve. I am sure enjoys the fact that he can control even his married adult children.

I don't really understand not being allowed to have fun. How can you ever be happy then? If they enjoy spending time together as a family or with like-minded individuals, isn't that a type of fun? If the women had a good time making cookings or something, isn't that just another form of fun? Or is fun when you do something you enjoy without your family? Maybe Steve equates individuality with fun and, of course, that is not acceptable.

Steve seems to be anti having fun for the sake of having fun. So, riding a roller coaster = bad, talking to family while cooking = good. You know, as long as you are discussing Steve approved topics and have Steve approved opinions.

Re. Tithing; they've mentioned they support some ministers in poor countries. I forget what these charities are called, but he mentioned them in a Corner, and one of the Moody books mentioned it too.

He's also mentioned that Sarah has a nice nest egg, so apparently the sisters are given at least some of their earnings.

I'm wondering if they split the earnings as a %. A certain per centage goes to the family coffers, and another percentage goes to each "child". I think they all work under the family's Communication Concepts business.

I wonder how much of the money the kids get as well. He touches on how much the company bills for programming but not how much the boy(s) actually earn.

I also wonder if the unmarried children are allowed their own bank accounts or if Steve keeps the money in his own so that the kids can't access it without his blessing. I can't decide between him being such a control freak that he has to keep the money or if his smug self-satisfaction has convinced him that the kids would never spend any money without his prior approval.

Danvillebelle- Did you ever meet the Maxwells? I've been following the Maxwells for coming up on 10 years (wow!) and there is part of me that would like to see them in real life.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

They lost me with Keeping Our Children's Hearts. Even for someone like me, a total homebody with pretty homebody kids, the level of isolation they call for was just bizarre to me.

Oh hell yeah.

I'm just some random heathen person on the internet who out of pure curiosity bought "Hearts" on eBay so I can see exactly what he says (since their online stuff always refers to it) and wow, it is extreme. If someone wants to know just how extreme the Maxwells are on isolationism I will highly recommend that book.

The basic gist is:

• Not sinning is not enough, you must ACTIVELY be serving Jesus 24/7 (that's what their family "goals" are, basically)
  
• Don't blacklist individual activities - ban it ALL, and then whitelist only things that help your children fulfill their "goals"
  
• "Appetites" for various things are dangerous, they will cause your kids to pursue various distracting activities that then get in the way of them pursuing their "goals"
  
• Children don't need friends, and they don't need to associate with extended family either if it will be a bad influence

Fun or recreation is a distraction, it takes up time and brainspace you could be using to serve Jesus. If you enjoy some activity you're doing to serve Jesus, then that's okay. If they associate with other families it's always as a family (and always in such a way that the Maxwells are in the majority setting the agenda for the activities) and when possible Steve-O has the other family over so he can use the time to proselytize to them. He talks about preaching to his own extended family, I'm sure that went over just great.

Not in "Hearts" but elsewhere on their website they talk about how they don't want the kids to even have secular lyrics in their music instruction books - not even "Row Row Row Your Boat" - because it takes up room in their heads with fluff. Why waste a brainworm on secular lyrics, if you have something stuck in your head it should be Godly.

I'll admit that personally I like scheduling for myself and some of Teri's tips on scheduling are things that I independently found work for me too, and I'm all over the to do list and checking off little completed tasks and setting my phone timer to do some task for 30 minutes. My brain works great that way. But the rest of it? 180 degrees apart. The stuff on my schedule is just very different from theirs...

I think the Maxwells are happy to talk at churches they might feel are at a "lesser" level than them because they're preaching, they're the ones setting the agenda, they're looking to "save" people. Lots of religious (of various stripes) are happy to go out and try to raise the level (as they see it) of other people currently in institutions they'd never let their own precious children participate in in a million years.

[sparkles]

The basic gist is:

Not sinning is not enough, you must ACTIVELY be serving Jesus 24/7 (that's what their family "goals" are, basically)

Don't blacklist individual activities - ban it ALL, and then whitelist only things that help your children fulfill their "goals"

"Appetites" for various things are dangerous, they will cause your kids to pursue various distracting activities that then get in the way of them pursuing their "goals"

Children don't need friends, and they don't need to associate with extended family either if it will be a bad influence

And not to forget:

Normal human emotions are a sin and must be stamped out at all costs. This runs through almost all of their writings, particularly as it pertains to Teri. One of the earliest passages that caught my eye in "Homeschooling with a Meek and Quiet Spirit" was how she talked about feelings of being frustrated, overwhelmed, stressed out and the like as sinful. And in one corner she mentioned apologizing to the family because one day she was suffering from severe back pain and dared let it show.

[MamaJunebug]

Re. Tithing; they've mentioned they support some ministers in poor countries. I forget what these charities are called, but he mentioned them in a Corner, and one of the Moody books mentioned it too.

He's also mentioned that Sarah has a nice nest egg, so apparently the sisters are given at least some of their earnings.

I'm wondering if they split the earnings as a %. A certain per centage goes to the family coffers, and another percentage goes to each "child". I think they all work under the family's Communication Concepts business.

Yes, and I also rather imagine the fancy toys are bought as tools of the business, so they can afford the very best. (And Poor Sarah can use that Canon Fabulosito to snap photos of herself in a mirror with a lens for a head. Cry for help, anybody? No, Steve, you're reading here, I'm sure it's not! But then again, maybe it is. Maybe you need to review those blogspots before she posts, eh????)

My guess is that most families consider the Maxwells the same way devout Catholics consider the nuns and brothers who live in abject poverty among the poor or who take up an ascetic life of prayer with little food, less sleep and hard accommodations: We'll never reach thier levels of piety, the everyday Catholics and the Maxwellians think, but they sure are inspiring to us to do a little better, give a little more, pray a little more earnestly.

Which of course isn't a problem until the middle-of-the-road admirers radicalize in a way that harms those who depend on them, or until they become inattentive to where their money is really going and wind up supporting pedophile protection schemes, or a sociopathic man's abuse of his family.

PS: I'm not surprised to hear that Steve sounds calm and rational. Some people with the most extreme of extremist ideas sound educated, affable and welcoming. Not all evil leaders sound like Hitler nor like radical religio-politicos. Beware.

[YPestis]

In the interview, Steve mentiond Joseph charing upwards of $75-100/hr for his work. I knew friends who worked for large consulting firms and they charge somewhere north of $300/hr for their new college hires. Of course, that's deceptive as the company pockets most of that, some goes to salary, benefits and other overhead. OTOH, medical residents after their first year around here can get around $75-100/hr per new patient or per hour depending on hospital arrangements. Again, that is deceptive as the docs have to pay for their own malpractice. However, the money can be good for those that moonlight a lot. In many hospitals, the patient stream is steady so the money is pretty good. I wonder how much overhead Joseph has for his business and how much business he actually have? $100/hr is nice but if he has high operating cost or business is sporadic, his actual income may be quite low.

As for the Maxwell finances. We've speculated on how much money they have. My opinion is that since they have several fulltime working adults living together, each adult has extra spending money due to pooled living expenses. One does not need to make "a lot" of money in order to afford nice electronic gears if mortgage and living expenses are paid. The key here is how much overhead the Maxwell businesses actually have> I speculated that much of the electronic gears are counted as "business expenses" and is used in some income generating capacity.

Also, remember that Steve has been working for a very long time now. He must have some income saved up. Plus, his nice home was all built with his family. That will save a great deal on costs. And with his several working adult children, he is able to benefit from the pooled income from all these working Maxwells.

[Dru]

Not sure if anyone is interested in this, but I had to dig up some audio of Teri after listening to Steve. I found some mini interviews with Teri over at the HSLDA website. The content of the "interviews" themselves aren't very interesting, MOTH Q&A, but listening to Teri speak is somewhat interesting because she she sounds very stilted and almost robotic. It's like night & day compared to Steve.

hslda.org/docs/hshb/12/hshb1226.asp

hslda.org/docs/hshb/12/hshb1227.asp

hslda.org/docs/hshb/12/hshb1228.asp

hslda.org/docs/hshb/12/hshb1229.asp

"Bonus" Steve interview

hslda.org/docs/hshb/12/hshb1230.asp

Note: Quicktime plugin required.

[Letgo]

He's also mentioned that Sarah has a nice nest egg, so apparently the sisters are given at least some of their earnings.

IF Sarah has access to her own money, and that's a big IF, it is most likely because Steve knows she will never get married and will need it to support herself after he dies and the other "children" are married.

[WonderingInWA]

I still think Sarah and Bill Gothard would make a perfect match. He wouldn't want to have sex with her any more than she would him and there would really be no expectations of children due to his age and hers (well, they could probably get away with that, anyway). And he's got a ton of money (presumeably) so when he kicks off, she's taken care of. I'm surprised Stevie hasn't thought of this.

[danvillebelle]

No, I've never met them. After all I've learned and realized about them here at FJ and on my own, I don't think I want to anymore, even out of curiosity. Steve totally creeps me out, I don't want to be in the same county with him.

[gustava]

I still think Sarah and Bill Gothard would make a perfect match. He wouldn't want to have sex with her any more than she would him and there would really be no expectations of children due to his age and hers (well, they could probably get away with that, anyway). And he's got a ton of money (presumeably) so when he kicks off, she's taken care of. I'm surprised Stevie hasn't thought of this.

Oh gag!! Wash your mouth out with soap, girl!!! And, I do think Sarah would like to be a mother, not just an aun.

[JenXer]

I first came across MOTH at a homeschool convention when I had four kids under 8 and I was homeschooling them. It is so enticing to a slightly disorganized mom...if I jut get all those little neon squares of paper in order, our lives will go smoothly!

Same here! I have almost all of their books, which I started buying about ten years ago when I was an overwhelmed homeschooler. Man oh man, did I spend a lot of time with those neon squares!

They seemed like such a great family back then. Whatever they were doing was "working". They all looked happy and devoted to one another.

But I started to go "Hmm..." when I read about one of their evangelizing moments at their local grocery store. Steve asked the cashier if she was a Christian and she said yes. Then he asked her if she read her Bible every day.

I thought, "Wait a minute. You already asked her if she was a Christian (an inappropriately private question to begin with) and then you probed further to see if she was the right sort of Christian... the one who does things the way you think they ought to be done?".

The arrogance astounded me. He assumed going in that this person... and any person he meets... is going to turn out not to be the right sort of Christian. Dang, that's presumptuous.

Then as the years went by that "family togetherness" started to seem really strange. The kids never do things without all of their siblings?? They don't need friends? Not even the right sort of Christian friends?

That's how I found Free Jinger. I'm not worried about Jinger. I was trying to find out what is UP with these Maxwells?!?

[Phyllis Styne]

Not sure if anyone is interested in this, but I had to dig up some audio of Teri after listening to Steve. I found some mini interviews with Teri over at the HSLDA website. The content of the "interviews" themselves aren't very interesting, MOTH Q&A, but listening to Teri speak is somewhat interesting because she she sounds very stilted and almost robotic. It's like night & day compared to Steve.

hslda.org/docs/hshb/12/hshb1226.asp

hslda.org/docs/hshb/12/hshb1227.asp

hslda.org/docs/hshb/12/hshb1228.asp

hslda.org/docs/hshb/12/hshb1229.asp

"Bonus" Steve interview

hslda.org/docs/hshb/12/hshb1230.asp

Note: Quicktime plugin required.

Damn the bad luck, I'm not able to listen, and I'd love to. When I attended their presentation a few years ago, my biggest surprise was Teri's clear, authoritative, confident voice. Just from reading about Steve's control over the family and the way she accepts it, and how she seemed to stoop in most blog photos, I expected a high-pitched Michelle voice with little self-assurance. Got exactly the opposite. The links above are from 1999, apparently in the 14 years since, she's been groomed to come across with a lot more authority and appeal.

[Marian the Librarian]

FWIW, I listened to this and posted the below back in February, but it was buried in the NCFIC/Family Economics thread. Nothing new to add here, other than agreeing with those who get creeped out by Stevus Lordicus' voice - and who want to conduct a nighttime freedom raid on Leavenworth, KS.

Ew - I'm listening to Kevin Swanson's (AKA Ichabod Crane on crack) interview of Stevehovah. It's all about the sons, and keeping them completely separated from the "bad influences" out there in the evil world. "Sarah has been involved in our ministry" is all he has to say about his #1 hostage oldest daughter.

More jewels of wisdom from Steve-o:

Woe be unto any father who so much as mentions "looking forward to the weekend" - it's an absolute guarantee of slothful sons.

"Appetites will shipwreck the best of intentions." Entertainment, food, all bad.

"Redeeming the time:" sleeping 1 extra hour per night = bad bad bad, and will be regretted for the rest of one's life. Shoulder to the wheel, nose to the grindstone. Work work work, everyone.

Television is The Beast. Movies, even those produced by Christians, are bad. The old Maxwell family tradition of one movie per year on New Year's Eve - gone. The Lord said to Steve, "have a prayer time on New Year's Eve," and now every new year is welcomed with prayers and tears in Maxhell.

"Our children are our credentials." The children are happy, dammit. Conference attendees say it, so it must be true.

Time for some brain bleach, a Silkwood shower, and an episode or two of Nurse Jackie.

[Dru]

Damn the bad luck, I'm not able to listen, and I'd love to. When I attended their presentation a few years ago, my biggest surprise was Teri's clear, authoritative, confident voice. Just from reading about Steve's control over the family and the way she accepts it, and how she seemed to stoop in most blog photos, I expected a high-pitched Michelle voice with little self-assurance. Got exactly the opposite. The links above are from 1999, apparently in the 14 years since, she's been groomed to come across with a lot more authority and appeal.

Maybe she was just nervous about being recorded/broadcast? I did notice that it was from 1999 but good ole Steve sounds exactly the same.

Did you talk to any of the Maxwells directly? If so, what was your impression of them?

[Dru]

I forgot to mention one interesting tidbit that Teri said when answering a question:

Mike:

Teri, tell us how your schedule gives you enough hours in the day to do what you need to do.

Teri:

Well, Mike, this is what is real exciting to me about my schedule—because it gives me the time to fulfill my responsibilities that are my basic responsibilities as a wife, a mother of eight children, a homemaker and a home schooler. But in addition, there’s time for me, and for my desires of my heart.

That sounds dangerously like doing something you enjoy because you enjoy it. :naughty: Of course, this was back when Teri was allowed to drink Pepsi and Sarah had a friend.

[JenXer]

I thought that I was a pretty thorough "follower" of the Maxwells, but I must have missed the part about Pepsi. Could someone please tell me what the deal is with that?

[Dru]

titus2.com/corners/moms-corner/nothing-between.html

ETA- Not working correctly as is. Add www. to the beginning and it should go to the correct page.

[JenXer]

Thanks, Dru. And wowwwww.

Are we sure that Teri isn't using "Pepsi" as a euphemism for vodka? I mean, look at this:

"While I greatly enjoyed drinking my vodka, I was truly in bondage. I fought spiritual battles over my vodka—defending it one moment and feeling condemned the next. I would drink a vodka telling the Lord that it would be my last one, but the next day I'd find myself rationalizing it again."

But this is the part that freaks me out the most:

"I told Steve a Pepsi would be a nice pick-me-up for some extra energy. He said, "Sure. Go ahead." "

He gave her permission to have a glass of pop? And neither of them found that a bit odd?

Teri does acknowledge that there isn't anything inherently sinful about Pepsi... just that it had become a sin for her because of its place in her heart.

I think she should study up on scrupulosity... the seeing of sin where there isn't any because one has a disordered sense of what is required of us. Pepsi may have become a habit for her but it's just a glass of fizzy water with some flavoring added.

Wow.

[LucySnowe]

Yeah, it's basically a salvation-from-addiction narrative, and the addiction is Pepsi.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I think about the pepsi thing all the time. It's bizarre and depressing.