Michelle on Josie's Progress

[desertvixen]

No. They have the right to offer whatever meal they feel like. Besides, it's one meal out of millions that they will consume throughout their lifetimes. If they don't like it, they can stop off for fast food on the way home. Plus, as a carnivore myself, I've had some damn delicious vegan meals!

This. I'd rather be offered vegan or vegetarian food than what happened at a wedding I went to last summer where they had god-awful (and cheap, I presume) "chicken marsala", only it was more like a nightmare chicken cordon bleu with ham and cheese inside, no yummy wine sauce anywhere, for the guests - while the pesce-vegetarian bride had her own plate of salmon and salad.

[ljohnson2006]

Gothard is their God. Whether or not they're going to ever publicly admit it, they follow his teachings.

[DifferentGurl]

So it seems that Michelle and Boob needs to learn the difference between a food intolerance and an actual allergy.

They need to learn a lot of things as well...

[bananacat]

It would not bother me in the least to eat vegan food for a wedding. One meal of your life argument etc.

I had vegan guests who stayed for a week, I was totally prepared to cater for them in every way possible I could, they were my guests. They in return expected me, my partner and my then 2 year old to also eat vegan for the week. I did it. Oh also my elderly parents who I had invited to join us for dinner one night. But there is one false part of your statement. 'Vegans can't eat meat at all.' No they CHOOSE to not eat meat. It is a lifestyle choice not a life threatening allergy to meat in the majority of cases. It was most certainly choice for ethical reasons in my guests. Just as I would be heartily sick of somebody trying to stuff their religion down my throat in my own home, I was by the end of the week extremely happy to see the back of the food fundies who did nothing but look down on us poor meat eaters.

So whilst this is the extreme of the spectrum whilst most vegans/vegetarians I know are lovely some just like everything in life are twats with no manners (manners again :lol: )

Oh god, this is frankly ridiculous. Like their choice is just some silly whim and they could just give it all up and eat a burger. You might as well just say that someone keeping Kosher could eat bacon, they just choose not to. No, a choice like this is life-long and really serious and you'll find very few who would just give up on their lifestyle because they're too hungry to skip a meal. It's far more serious than you think it is.

Honestly, you could say the same thing about picky eaters who have sensory issues. Sure, most of them could choke down certain things and their body wouldn't physically react, but that still doesn't mean they're just choosing to make their lives more difficult.

So when you don't have a suitable option for someone, whether it's a choice or a "real" reason, the end result is that they eat nothing.

[bananacat]

I would hope that if they are having a huge formal dinner and the hours long reception, then they do offer a non-vegan option. Speaking as a fragile diabetic surrounded by militant vegan family members, I've had several lifetimes of arguments over the fact that for me a meat-based meal with veggies is far safer that a whole grain based meal... But I've very special diet needs.

If the wedding is about making their guests feel completely comfortable, then they need to have a non-vegan option. If the wedding is about making a political statement, then by all means "tofu and seaweed" for everyone (I am being extremely cheeky here!). If they would like to remain true to their diet choice, perhaps a "nibbles and dessert" reception would be easier than a formal meal.

(By the way....they do not need to do a "prime rib/kill the pig" non-vegan option. A simply prepared fish or chicken dish is completely fine.)

Oh geez, let me just roll my eyes here with your false equivalence. Your health issues aside because they don't apply to most meat-eaters, "forcing" a meat-eater to suck it up and eat a meal of pasta with tomato sauce is quite different than forcing a vegan to choose between eating meat or going without. I'm not even vegetarian and yet I am sick of this cultural idea that meat is a staple and every single freaking meal must revolve around meat. A meal without meat is not a tragedy and shouldn't even be remarkable, even for meat-eaters. Honestly, insisting on having meat is the bigger political statement here. And if you really can't imagine a single good meal without having meat in it, maybe you should take a closer look at your dietary trends because that is not normal in any way.

In your case, if you have special dietary needs because of your health, you should consider letting the hosts know ahead of time so they can accommodate you. The solution here isn't just to serve meat to everyone.

[Trynn]

I haven't had meat in 14 years. Back when it was only 7, I accidentally ate a piece of chicken. I got SO sick. I almost didn't get to take My driving test the next day.

A lot of people I've talked to will say the same thing. If one abstains for a long period of time, sometimes one can get sick when one eats it. Meat and cheese and milk will do that to me. It therefore isn't an issue of "I will eat it because there is nothing else," it's an issue of "I can suffer hunger (and low blood sugar) now or I can be really sick later."

Whoever it was uothread that had guests who insisted the hosts eat vegan while they were there, that is RUDE. It is not my business what others around me eat (unless it's particularly smelly, like my dad's salmon patties that stink up the whole house).

I actually had someone ask me of id be offended If they ate meat in front of me. I responded by giving them a puzzled look and going, "huh?" because it just never occurred to me to think that way.

[Mama Mia]

Oh geez, let me just roll my eyes here with your false equivalence. Your health issues aside because they don't apply to most meat-eaters, "forcing" a meat-eater to suck it up and eat a meal of pasta with tomato sauce is quite different than forcing a vegan to choose between eating meat or going without. I'm not even vegetarian and yet I am sick of this cultural idea that meat is a staple and every single freaking meal must revolve around meat. A meal without meat is not a tragedy and shouldn't even be remarkable, even for meat-eaters. Honestly, insisting on having meat is the bigger political statement here. And if you really can't imagine a single good meal without having meat in it, maybe you should take a closer look at your dietary trends because that is not normal in any way.

In your case, if you have special dietary needs because of your health, you should consider letting the hosts know ahead of time so they can accommodate you. The solution here isn't just to serve meat to everyone.

I'm not a vegetarian either and I completely agree. There are tons of dishes that don't require meat, if the hosts are vegan they can certainly give their guests a filling meal without using meat. And I'm sorry, but even being diabetic or having other special health needs, your typical wedding meal should provide options you can eat...vegan or not. And seriously, the same goes for vegetarians who get irritated because there are no meat free options. Or those who are gluten free. Have a salad. Eat the side dishes. Unless you have some really rare and specific food requirements you can probably get through an evening just fine with what is offered. And if you do have those specific requirements, bring a snack. I can't eat a lot of foods without choking.....so no steak, no salads etc......but I wouldn't dream of telling a host of a celebration that they needed to make me something special. I would eat the mashed potatoes, or rolls, or cake or whatever they had and deal with it.

[dawbs]

I think some of the stereotype of 'vegan dishes are scary/not good tasting to carnivores' is in the wording (as was actually discussed somewhere else I hang out online recently :)

I mean, you tell me that the main course is stuffed butternut squash or pesto pasta with fried spinach" nd I'll think "OK, sounds interesting".

You tell me the main course is "Vegan butternut squash or meatless pesto and spinach" and I think "oh dear"

I'll completely admit that that's not fair of me. But, IME, something that happens to be a food that people eat that is vegan friendly is likely to be tasty. A food that is "pretending" to be a full-meat-food with some other food substituted in for the meat is less likely to be. And the moment people specify 'vegan/vegetarian/meatless', it usually means that they've done this sort of substitution.

So, mac & cheese is a great dish for a vegetarian to put in front of me...but if it's described as "vegetarian mac and cheese" I"m going to eyeball it with suspicion--because the moment people put 'vegetarian' in front of something, I suspect that they're trying to sneak weird things in and say "oh, you'll never notice that I removed all of the pasta and replaced it with spaghetti squash" or "but mashed cauliflower tastes *exactly* like mashed potatoes!" or "Tofurkey is *just* like turkey, but without the pain and suffering".

Serve me Mac & cheese or Pesto & beans or whatever the vegan dish is...I'll eat it. Just don't try to take a meat-heavy dish and take the meat out--that always results in both groups being grumpy about dinner.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Guys, I just have to say I'm feeling a lot of warm fuzzies over the vegetarian/vegan-positive statements. Seriously, it's a welcome change (from overall life, not just this board).

Oh, and User123456, your comment about "tofu and seaweed" is what I was talking about upthread when I said that people can be DICKS about veganism.

[hapamama]

I baked egg and milk free baked goods for many years due to allergies. Most were pretty good, although there are definitely things that don't translate well to being vegan...

[OkToBeTakei]

Oh god, this is frankly ridiculous. Like their choice is just some silly whim and they could just give it all up and eat a burger. You might as well just say that someone keeping Kosher could eat bacon, they just choose not to. No, a choice like this is life-long and really serious and you'll find very few who would just give up on their lifestyle because they're too hungry to skip a meal. It's far more serious than you think it is.

Honestly, you could say the same thing about picky eaters who have sensory issues. Sure, most of them could choke down certain things and their body wouldn't physically react, but that still doesn't mean they're just choosing to make their lives more difficult.

So when you don't have a suitable option for someone, whether it's a choice or a "real" reason, the end result is that they eat nothing.

No you have totally missed the point. At what point did I say I did not respect their choice, or any vegan. Which point did I not accommodate said choice? I enjoyed a meat free week, the food part bothers me not. The attitude did. I would not expect them to eat meat if I stayed with them for a week. They totally expected us not to. Basically their ethical choice supersedes all.

Sensory issues are not a choice. Allergies are not a choice. NOT liking something is not a choice. Kosher is for religious reasons and to some extent is a choice. Vegan is a lifestyle be it ethical or health is a choice. I would not force any of the above to eat anything they are not happy or healthy to eat.

I merely pointed out it is a choice. If starvation happened to be around the corner for some far fetched reason my imagination this early in the morning come up with then a Vegan would not die if meat was the only thing available. If they chose not to eat it then they would.

[OkToBeTakei]

Oh geez, let me just roll my eyes here with your false equivalence. Your health issues aside because they don't apply to most meat-eaters, "forcing" a meat-eater to suck it up and eat a meal of pasta with tomato sauce is quite different than forcing a vegan to choose between eating meat or going without. I'm not even vegetarian and yet I am sick of this cultural idea that meat is a staple and every single freaking meal must revolve around meat. A meal without meat is not a tragedy and shouldn't even be remarkable, even for meat-eaters. Honestly, insisting on having meat is the bigger political statement here. And if you really can't imagine a single good meal without having meat in it, maybe you should take a closer look at your dietary trends because that is not normal in any way.

In your case, if you have special dietary needs because of your health, you should consider letting the hosts know ahead of time so they can accommodate you. The solution here isn't just to serve meat to everyone.

:lol: I will be sure to tell my 81 year old Irish Father he is not normal.

[OkToBeTakei]

I haven't had meat in 14 years. Back when it was only 7, I accidentally ate a piece of chicken. I got SO sick. I almost didn't get to take My driving test the next day.

A lot of people I've talked to will say the same thing. If one abstains for a long period of time, sometimes one can get sick when one eats it. Meat and cheese and milk will do that to me. It therefore isn't an issue of "I will eat it because there is nothing else," it's an issue of "I can suffer hunger (and low blood sugar) now or I can be really sick later."

Whoever it was uothread that had guests who insisted the hosts eat vegan while they were there, that is RUDE. It is not my business what others around me eat (unless it's particularly smelly, like my dad's salmon patties that stink up the whole house).

I actually had someone ask me of id be offended If they ate meat in front of me. I responded by giving them a puzzled look and going, "huh?" because it just never occurred to me to think that way.

Same thing happened to my friend with chicken. No idea why she decided to try it again, like you she had not eaten meat for nearly 20 years. She quickly decided not to try that again :lol:

Totally agree with all the above, anything marketed as vegan or vegetarian totally gets the side-eye from most of my friends. One funny story I heard. A friend (vegetarian) was offered chicken at a dinner party as it had been organically grain fed.....therefore was a vegetarian chicken :lol: :lol: Seriously can't make this shit up.

[Lillybee]

I am going to go back on topic. My issue is that Ma and Pa Duggar expect the lost girls and the howlers to feed themselves during the day on what is in the snack fridge instead of providing them a fairly healthy breakfast and lunch.

It seems that the J'slaves (Jill and Jana) may be busy elsewhere and no one is in charge of what they are eating. I do not expect three and four year olds to make healthy choices. I remember poor Jordyn eatig an empty ice cream cone for lunch.

[lilith]

I didn't eat any meat until I was 23, and had periods of veganism as well.

I started eating meat during my first pregnancy, for the health of myself and my baby (and no tirades about the possibility of healthy vegetarian pregnancies please, it was my informed choice and one I didn't take lightly).

I started eating small amounts of chicken and fish, and it never made me sick at all, protein was one of the easier things to eat in the early morning sickness months. I gradually moved on to minced beef in strongly flavoured sauces (like curries or spaghetti bolognaise), then to small pieces of meat in sauces/stews. I now eat everything but pork products - they still make me queasy, and I'm not keen on lamb, although I will eat it if served it.

I never had issues reintroducing dairy after periods of veganism either, one of which was 18 months starting when I was six (my parents suspected dairy was contributing to my asthma), another almost two years in my late teens.

I know my experience isn't universal, but reintroduction of animal products doesn't always cause problems.

I'm still not a huge meat eater and cook vegetarian at least a few nights a week and am likely to order vegetarian when out. I too find it surprising when people can't imagine a meal without meat, but I recognise that's very much a result if my culture and upbringing.

[OkToBeTakei]

I didn't eat any meat until I was 23, and had periods of veganism as well.

I started eating meat during my first pregnancy, for the health of myself and my baby (and no tirades about the possibility of healthy vegetarian pregnancies please, it was my informed choice and one I didn't take lightly).

I started eating small amounts of chicken and fish, and it never made me sick at all, protein was one of the easier things to eat in the early morning sickness months. I gradually moved on to minced beef in strongly flavoured sauces (like curries or spaghetti bolognaise), then to small pieces of meat in sauces/stews. I now eat everything but pork products - they still make me queasy, and I'm not keen on lamb, although I will eat it if served it.

I never had issues reintroducing dairy after periods of veganism either, one of which was 18 months starting when I was six (my parents suspected dairy was contributing to my asthma), another almost two years in my late teens.

I know my experience isn't universal, but reintroduction of animal products doesn't always cause problems.

I'm still not a huge meat eater and cook vegetarian at least a few nights a week and am likely to order vegetarian when out. I too find it surprising when people can't imagine a meal without meat, but I recognise that's very much a result if my culture and upbringing.

Meat and two veg I think was a cultural diet. Obviously there are exceptions but the majority of the older generation of my Irish family whilst totally enjoying a meat free dinner I may make, are still secretly thinking it was not really a 'dinner.' In fact it's not really a dinner if there are no potatoes :lol: I tend to eat meat up to three times per week. By meat meaning flesh or bits of an animal or fish to be clear. My parents would eat a scabby horse if put in front of them and I make them many experimental dishes to which they always say bless them 'Sure love, that was just gorgeous' but when it really comes down to the nitty gritty and I want my Dad to feel really special, the way to his heart is always meat and two veg. I wonder what a default parental meal would be in say Japan or China or really any other culture?

Lamb is the one meat I just cannot eat. It makes me violently sick. I always just assumed because it was quite a rich meat. Probably because of my own experience I would have thought that was more difficult to acclimatise to. Pork is probably my favourite meat, but I think it is still not as popular as some others. Mr OK's Mother never cooked it at all when he was growing up. No big reason she just did not know what to do with it.

I should imagine a vegan/meat thread is not the place to bring up offal :lol:

[Miggy]

I am going to go back on topic. My issue is that Ma and Pa Duggar expect the lost girls and the howlers to feed themselves during the day on what is in the snack fridge instead of providing them a fairly healthy breakfast and lunch.

It seems that the J'slaves (Jill and Jana) may be busy elsewhere and no one is in charge of what they are eating. I do not expect three and four year olds to make healthy choices. I remember poor Jordyn eatig an empty ice cream cone for lunch.

They use to show then having lunch on 19KaC fairly regularly. I have several podcasts of different "lunch with the Duggars" except that by different they mean, well, one of two choices. Option 1 : Tinned vegetable soup + cheese on toast. Option 2 : Ramen Noodles, cooked or raw depending on who is making them. Funny that this seems to have stopped the moment Jill & Jana got jobs, isn't it? Actually, funny is a bad choice of words.

Edited to add: Forget beef, lamb, chicken & pork. Come to Australia and try roo. It is very low in fat and has a very rich flavour. So yummy!

[ILoveJellybeans]

According to those articles Michelle writes, which are probably 99% bullshit, Jessa and Jinger are the ones who do all the cooking at the moment.

Im guessing they cook one meal a day, and for the rest of the day, the kids just take what they want, whether theyre teenagers cooking simple meals for themselves or toddlers eating candy for breakfast and empty ice cream cones for lunch.

I bet Michelle has one of her older kids cook meals for her though, to be delivered to her in bed while shes having sex with Jimbob.

"Stop shaking the spoon so much Jessa, you nearly poked me in the eye. If you throw up on the floor you had better clean it up, and I am not paying for you to have therapy because of this! Ohhhhhhhhhhhh Jimbob, get me pregnant with baby 20"

[lizziesmom]

In all seriousness, their lives have to have changed drastically since their tv show started and they began making all these appearances. I used to be very active in an organization and did a lot of travelling. There were some weeks I was gone more than I was at home. I can't imagine trying to juggle the schedule for 21 people at TTH, homeschool, and keep up with other daily chores. Even though no one goes anywhere without a buddy, I suspect the time all of them are actually in one place together for a meal is much less than it used to be.

[graefin]

Sorry to go back "off topic" again, but there seem to be a lot of misperceptions about veganism (I'm sure in no small part because of the way veganism is portrayed in the media) on this thread that I would like to weigh in on because so many people seem to be interested in this topic.

Veganism isn't simply a matter of diet or choice for those of us who are vegan because we take morality seriously--it's about the refusal to participate in the exploitation of sentient beings for any purpose, whether that be for food, clothing, entertainment, etc. In fact, veganism isn't about us at all--it's about other animals and our obligations to them.

To the original poster who asked whether the (vegan) bride and groom had an obligation to serve animal products at their wedding, I would respond that if they are vegan for moral reasons, the answer should be clear. If I believe slavery is wrong, I wouldn't serve products of slavery at a special occasion for others to consume regardless of whether I myself were consuming any. The guests at the wedding will survive being served a vegan meal. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said about the animals who would otherwise be tortured and killed for no other reason than to satisfy palate pleasure.

Anyway, I don't want to veer too far off topic, but again, since so many seem interested, there are lots of great blogs on veganism out there. I'd suggest the following to start:

my-face-is-on-fire.blogspot.com

brockwayhall.blogspot.com

candidhominid.com

uvearchives.wordpress.com

abolitionistapproach.com

[mrs]

Sorry to go back "off topic" again, but there seem to be a lot of misperceptions about veganism (I'm sure in no small part because of the way veganism is portrayed in the media) on this thread that I would like to weigh in on because so many people seem to be interested in this topic.

Veganism isn't simply a matter of diet or choice for those of us who are vegan because we take morality seriously--it's about the refusal to participate in the exploitation of sentient beings for any purpose, whether that be for food, clothing, entertainment, etc. In fact, veganism isn't about us at all--it's about other animals and our obligations to them.

To the original poster who asked whether the (vegan) bride and groom had an obligation to serve animal products at their wedding, I would respond that if they are vegan for moral reasons, the answer should be clear. If I believe slavery is wrong, I wouldn't serve products of slavery at a special occasion for others to consume regardless of whether I myself were consuming any. The guests at the wedding will survive being served a vegan meal. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said about the animals who would otherwise be tortured and killed for no other reason than to satisfy palate pleasure.

Anyway, I don't want to veer too far off topic, but again, since so many seem interested, there are lots of great blogs on veganism out there. I'd suggest the following to start:

my-face-is-on-fire.blogspot.com

brockwayhall.blogspot.com

candidhominid.com

uvearchives.wordpress.com

abolitionistapproach.com

I agree with you.

I have family members that are "vegans" because they want to lose weight...seriously. SMH :snooty:

[alchemy]

Sorry to continue off topic..

I can't tell you how many people I've come across who don't think vegan or vegetarian parents should raise their children on the same diet as the parents. Or who say things like, "I hate it when Sally [vegan] says that her little Johnny is a vegan. Kids aren't anything until they grow up and make their own choices." (curiously, the same person who said that has no problem proclaiming her own young children are Catholic.

What I don't understand is why some people think being a carnivore needs to be the default diet for everyone born, and converting to vegan/vegetarian/pescatarian/whatever is a choice you make when you reach a certain age.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Sorry to continue off topic..

I can't tell you how many people I've come across who don't think vegan or vegetarian parents should raise their children on the same diet as the parents. Or who say things like, "I hate it when Sally [vegan] says that her little Johnny is a vegan. Kids aren't anything until they grow up and make their own choices." (curiously, the same person who said that has no problem proclaiming her own young children are Catholic.

What I don't understand is why some people think being a carnivore needs to be the default diet for everyone born, and converting to vegan/vegetarian/pescatarian/whatever is a choice you make when you reach a certain age.

I'm really struggling with the fact that my future child will be eating meat. It's just not something my Partner will budge on.

ETA to remove stray smiley.

[August]

Graefin, I would argue that an animal is better off having a good, well treated fulfilling life and dying a quick and painless death so I can eat it or its products than not having any life at all. Take the chickens and bees whose eggs and honey I eat. Yes, they are enslaved, but they don't have the mental capacity for that to be a burden on them.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Graefin, I would argue that an animal is better off having a good, well treated fulfilling life and dying a quick and painless death so I can eat it or its products than not having any life at all. Take the chickens and bees whose eggs and honey I eat. Yes, they are enslaved, but they don't have the mental capacity for that to be a burden on them.

So you only consume animal products that you know for a fact come from a farm on which the animals are well-treated? And you only eat vegan in cases where you can't know for sure?