Michelle on Josie's Progress

[OkToBeTakei]

Sorry to continue off topic..

I can't tell you how many people I've come across who don't think vegan or vegetarian parents should raise their children on the same diet as the parents. Or who say things like, "I hate it when Sally [vegan] says that her little Johnny is a vegan. Kids aren't anything until they grow up and make their own choices." (curiously, the same person who said that has no problem proclaiming her own young children are Catholic.

What I don't understand is why some people think being a carnivore needs to be the default diet for everyone born, and converting to vegan/vegetarian/pescatarian/whatever is a choice you make when you reach a certain age.

So very, very true. Which is why I have no problem with what my child in the future will eat or believe. Just as my wish for fundie parents is to love their kids should they decide to become atheist I also hope that if say a vegan child decides to eat a plate full of Beef Carpaccio, their parents will feel the same.

[OkToBeTakei]

Sorry to go back "off topic" again, but there seem to be a lot of misperceptions about veganism (I'm sure in no small part because of the way veganism is portrayed in the media) on this thread that I would like to weigh in on because so many people seem to be interested in this topic.

Veganism isn't simply a matter of diet or choice for those of us who are vegan because we take morality seriously--it's about the refusal to participate in the exploitation of sentient beings for any purpose, whether that be for food, clothing, entertainment, etc. In fact, veganism isn't about us at all--it's about other animals and our obligations to them.

To the original poster who asked whether the (vegan) bride and groom had an obligation to serve animal products at their wedding, I would respond that if they are vegan for moral reasons, the answer should be clear. If I believe slavery is wrong, I wouldn't serve products of slavery at a special occasion for others to consume regardless of whether I myself were consuming any. The guests at the wedding will survive being served a vegan meal. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said about the animals who would otherwise be tortured and killed for no other reason than to satisfy palate pleasure.

Anyway, I don't want to veer too far off topic, but again, since so many seem interested, there are lots of great blogs on veganism out there. I'd suggest the following to start:

my-face-is-on-fire.blogspot.com

brockwayhall.blogspot.com

candidhominid.com

uvearchives.wordpress.com

abolitionistapproach.com

I like your explanation, it reminds me of a dear friend.

The bolded though is not always the case. It is statements like that which just turn your way of life and belief into a them and us, which really serves no purpose.

[Flossie]

I have family members that are "vegans" because they want to lose weight...seriously. SMH

What is wrong with that? When my sister married her husband was obese, had type 2 diabetes and was developing heart problems. He'd been a bachelor until his 50's and had lived on fast food and such all that time. My sis runs 10K runs and is very fit, so she thought that her influence would help him get healthier.

My sister did her best by trying to teach her hubby better eating habits, and they cooked meals together whenever possible, but it turned out that he was cheating whenever possible (diet-wise). A scary health issue with hubby happened a couple of years into the marriage and things changed big-time.

My sister is very good about researching things and consulting people who have more knowledge than her, and suddenly our fat-laden, sugar loving, meat-eating family was informed that she and her husband were both eating vegan. They no longer showed up to family events where food was being offered and didn't go out to eat. It was like they became hermits, but hermits who would happily talk on the phone, or would show up for a few minutes to just chat. This lasted for a year and then they started showing up again, but only at occasions where food wasn't a big part of the celebration.

Now after a couple of years they happily show up to family celebrations and eat whatever is available. It's obvious that they still don't eat a lot of meat and dairy, stick mostly to salads without dressing, but they have a few bites of the more 'naughty' foods.

My BIL is much thinner now and is no longer diabetic. Don't know about the heart issue. He also doesn't find a chair and sit in it when he visits, he moves around and is engaged. He hates running, but he and my sister go on hikes.

They still eat vegan at home, and the switch saved my BIL's life. So what if they adjust a bit when they are out in public?

[graefin]

Graefin, I would argue that an animal is better off having a good, well treated fulfilling life and dying a quick and painless death so I can eat it or its products than not having any life at all. Take the chickens and bees whose eggs and honey I eat. Yes, they are enslaved, but they don't have the mental capacity for that to be a burden on them.

I think this kind of debate may not be in the scope of this forum, but I have a two-part response to this. One, animals exploited for food *do not* have a "good, well-treated, fulfilling life" and definitely do not die a "quick and painless death." Anyone who believes so is simply living in a fantasy world. Two, even if what you are saying were true, it's not about treatment; it's about use. Would you think it was OK to murder a human who had previously led a good, fulfilling life as long as the murder was carried out quickly and painlessly? It doesn't matter what their cognitive abilities are; it only matters that other animals, just like us, are sentient--they possess subjective awareness and care what happens to them. As I said earlier, if we take morality seriously, if we care at all (and there are plenty of people, my own family included, who do not), then we owe it to them to not exploit them--which means being vegan.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I definitely wouldn't have an issue with my kid growing up and choosing to eat meat. I just wish I could start them off in life by teaching them what I believe about the topic and making it clear that I think it's an ethical issue. Just like I will be teaching them my views on religion and politics even though I will accept them if they become religious and conservative. My issue is that there is no way to do that without either my partner agreeing to eat vegetarian, which he won't, nor would I try to convert him, OR having to treat his meat eating as akin to cigarette smoking ("This is just Daddy's bad habit") which I would also never do. Being able to share traditional German food with his kids is important to him, and I don't want to begrudge him that. So...the most I can do is ask that he buys local small farm meat and maybe just not have it quite as often.

I realize that vegetarian and vegan ethical objections to the consumption of meat and/or other animal products can sound tiresomely silly to others. All I can say is that this makes me sad because it indicates that at the core, the pain and suffering of animals is so insignificant in most people's minds that someone who objects to it is expected to suck it up based on the situation, as if it's just not as important an ethical issue as anything else and should be discarded for the sake of convenience, getting along, pleasing others, or whatever.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I like your explanation, it reminds me of a dear friend.

The bolded though is not always the case. It is statements like that which just turn your way of life and belief into a them and us, which really serves no purpose.

Yet the bolded is 100% true. Animals ARE killed and ARE tortured for no reason other than the fact that people want to eat meat. It's just a fact, whatever you think about the rights of animals or the merits of carnivorism.

[OkToBeTakei]

Yet the bolded is 100% true. Animals ARE killed and ARE tortured for no reason other than the fact that people want to eat meat. It's just a fact, whatever you think about the rights of animals or the merits of carnivorism.

One of the good things about being a higher functioning part of this world is that humans can end suffering in animals humanely. Just as humans can end suffering in other humans. Palliative care.

If your argument is that ALL animals are tortured cruelly and killed JUST so that humans can eat well that as I said previously is just so much rubbish. With out doubt factory bred animals, animals bred for human consumption, by products or flesh. Then I would agree with you. But for you to not see that some choose to eat meat ethically is not correct. Is it the norm? No. Is it happening more? Yes, I think it is. Killed yes. Tortured? Not a blanket truth.

[cjsmom]

I'm really struggling with the fact that my future child will be eating meat. It's just not something my Partner will budge on.

ETA to remove stray smiley.

I'm vegetarian, husband is not. My son has never eaten meat, even when it was offered to him as a very young child. If I made chili for the hubs and gave my son some, he'd pick out the beans and vegetables to eat, and leave the meat. At around 2, I stopped serving meat because it wasn't getting eaten, and I hate food waste. Vegetarianism was not brought up in conversation, but all foods were offered to him. At five, unprompted, he asked me why we kill animals just for their meat, because it was such a waste. You never know, your future child may take after mine.

[OkToBeTakei]

I definitely wouldn't have an issue with my kid growing up and choosing to eat meat. I just wish I could start them off in life by teaching them what I believe about the topic and making it clear that I think it's an ethical issue. Just like I will be teaching them my views on religion and politics even though I will accept them if they become religious and conservative. My issue is that there is no way to do that without either my partner agreeing to eat vegetarian, which he won't, nor would I try to convert him, OR having to treat his meat eating as akin to cigarette smoking ("This is just Daddy's bad habit") which I would also never do. Being able to share traditional German food with his kids is important to him, and I don't want to begrudge him that. So...the most I can do is ask that he buys local small farm meat and maybe just not have it quite as often.

I realize that vegetarian and vegan ethical objections to the consumption of meat and/or other animal products can sound tiresomely silly to others. All I can say is that this makes me sad because it indicates that at the core, the pain and suffering of animals is so insignificant in most people's minds that someone who objects to it is expected to suck it up based on the situation, as if it's just not as important an ethical issue as anything else and should be discarded for the sake of convenience, getting along, pleasing others, or whatever.

I just want my child to be able to make these decisions for herself without some burden of expectation moulded by MY beliefs. Tough one though.

I do not think your beliefs are tiresome OR silly. They are yours and they are important. We all have them.

[EmmieJ]

It would not bother me in the least to eat vegan food for a wedding. One meal of your life argument etc.

I had vegan guests who stayed for a week, I was totally prepared to cater for them in every way possible I could, they were my guests. They in return expected me, my partner and my then 2 year old to also eat vegan for the week. I did it. Oh also my elderly parents who I had invited to join us for dinner one night. But there is one false part of your statement. 'Vegans can't eat meat at all.' No they CHOOSE to not eat meat. It is a lifestyle choice not a life threatening allergy to meat in the majority of cases. It was most certainly choice for ethical reasons in my guests. Just as I would be heartily sick of somebody trying to stuff their religion down my throat in my own home, I was by the end of the week extremely happy to see the back of the food fundies who did nothing but look down on us poor meat eaters.

So whilst this is the extreme of the spectrum whilst most vegans/vegetarians I know are lovely some just like everything in life are twats with no manners (manners again :lol: )

My sister's daughter is autistic and has special dietary needs. On the few occasions when she braved the long flight out with her daughter, she would mail ahead a couple boxes of food items. I know this isn't possible for everyone, but if I had certain dietary restrictions, I would plan ahead as best I could for any travel arrangements, and I certainly would not expect my host to change their dietary habits to fit mine. (A host that would do so, is extremely gracious.)

As to Boob and J'Chelle - they cannot be bothered with "catering" to any of their children's individual needs. So I guess Josie just has to do without. They are the epitomy of selfish idiots.

[SpeakNow]

I think this kind of debate may not be in the scope of this forum, but I have a two-part response to this. One, animals exploited for food *do not* have a "good, well-treated, fulfilling life" and definitely do not die a "quick and painless death." Anyone who believes so is simply living in a fantasy world. Two, even if what you are saying were true, it's not about treatment; it's about use. Would you think it was OK to murder a human who had previously led a good, fulfilling life as long as the murder was carried out quickly and painlessly? It doesn't matter what their cognitive abilities are; it only matters that other animals, just like us, are sentient--they possess subjective awareness and care what happens to them. As I said earlier, if we take morality seriously, if we care at all (and there are plenty of people, my own family included, who do not), then we owe it to them to not exploit them--which means being vegan.

But here's the thing. In nature plenty of animals kill other animals for food. Ultimately eating meat is a natural part of the diet of certain species. I am opposed to murder (obviously) and hunting/fishing for sport. I am opposed to factory farming and mistreating animals.

I would not expect my two cats to start eating a vegetarian/vegan diet. Thus, even if I don't eat meat, I still purchase meat products for my pets. I try to provide them organic cat food with free range meat, but that is not always feasible (it's very expensive).

I think that being vegan is just one way to help the plight of animals. Personally, I see eating meat as a natural part of life. I do try to eat only meat (and dairy etc) that comes from ethical sources where the animals are well treated. I don't eat veal, and I don't eat lobster since I think that bing boiled alive sounds like a terrible way to go. That being said, I am intensely committed to making life better for animals. I rescue stray cats and donate to my local no kill shelter. I purchase ethically raised meat. I don't see being vegan as the only ethical way to improve the plight of other sentient beings. I think the big issue some "carnivores" have with veganism is the attitude of some vegans. I have met many nice vegans, but I also know 2 who think they are morally superior for their choice. The attitude that "we're more moral/ethical/better than you because we don't eat animal products" really turns people off.

I think it works best if people live and let live. I have a friend who is vegan. When she comes to visit I serve vegan food. She doesn't try to "convert" me to veganism (though if asked she will explain why she is a vegan), and I don't try to make her eat meat. We ought certainly to expose the plight of other creatures, but we must respect that different people have different approaches to ending the mistreatment of animals.

Sorry for the insanely long post.

[graefin]

But here's the thing. In nature plenty of animals kill other animals for food. Ultimately eating meat is a natural part of the diet of certain species. I am opposed to murder (obviously) and hunting/fishing for sport. I am opposed to factory farming and mistreating animals.

What other animals do is irrelevant to the moral choices we make ourselves. In nature, some animals rape other animals. Does that make it OK for us to engage in that behavior?

I would not expect my two cats to start eating a vegetarian/vegan diet. Thus, even if I don't eat meat, I still purchase meat products for my pets. I try to provide them organic cat food with free range meat, but that is not always feasible (it's very expensive).

I have cats, and I do not expect them to eat a vegan diet either (although I know many vegans who do feed their companion animals a vegan diet). But again, what cats, who are obligate carnivores, should eat, is not relevant to what I should.

I think that being vegan is just one way to help the plight of animals. Personally, I see eating meat as a natural part of life. I do try to eat only meat (and dairy etc) that comes from ethical sources where the animals are well treated. I don't eat veal, and I don't eat lobster since I think that bing boiled alive sounds like a terrible way to go. That being said, I am intensely committed to making life better for animals. I rescue stray cats and donate to my local no kill shelter. I purchase ethically raised meat. I don't see being vegan as the only ethical way to improve the plight of other sentient beings. I think the big issue some "carnivores" have with veganism is the attitude of some vegans. I have met many nice vegans, but I also know 2 who think they are morally superior for their choice. The attitude that "we're more moral/ethical/better than you because we don't eat animal products" really turns people off.

I know a great many vegans, and none of them (including myself) have a "we're better than you are" attitude. That would be silly, since most people (myself included) were not born vegan. When I talk about veganism, it's for the purposes of educating people about concepts they might not have thought about before. They, of course, are free to do whatever they wish with that info. The only reason I posted about this topic to begin with in this thread is because people were talking about it, and as I said, there were a number of perceptions about veganism that were, in my view, inaccurate.

That said, I want to say that "ethically raised meat" is an oxymoron. There is no "ethical" way to slaughter a sentient being who wants to live. It's great that you rescue cats and donate to your local shelter--that's all very important work that no vegan I know would ever dispute. But the point I'm making is that the line many people draw is completely arbitrary--veal and lobster are no worse than any other use of animals (in fact, it can easily be argued that animals used for eggs and milk suffer *more* than animals killed for meat).

I think it works best if people live and let live. I have a friend who is vegan. When she comes to visit I serve vegan food. She doesn't try to "convert" me to veganism (though if asked she will explain why she is a vegan), and I don't try to make her eat meat. We ought certainly to expose the plight of other creatures, but we must respect that different people have different approaches to ending the mistreatment of animals.

What anyone does is obviously up to them. Unfortunately, the animals whom we exploit don't have any choice in the matter. As I said earlier, being vegan isn't about *us*; it's about *them*. You know, I'm not the one being tortured and then murdered (and neither are you). Are there people who aren't interested in hearing about veganism? Sure. But there are many who are, and as I already said more than once, my posts were directed at those people.

[OkToBeTakei]

What other animals do is irrelevant to the moral choices we make ourselves. In nature, some animals rape other animals. Does that make it OK for us to engage in that behavior?

I have cats, and I do not expect them to eat a vegan diet either (although I know many vegans who do feed their companion animals a vegan diet). But again, what cats, who are obligate carnivores, should eat, is not relevant to what I should.

I know a great many vegans, and none of them (including myself) have a "we're better than you are" attitude. That would be silly, since most people (myself included) were not born vegan. When I talk about veganism, it's for the purposes of educating people about concepts they might not have thought about before. They, of course, are free to do whatever they wish with that info. The only reason I posted about this topic to begin with in this thread is because people were talking about it, and as I said, there were a number of perceptions about veganism that were, in my view, inaccurate.

That said, I want to say that "ethically raised meat" is an oxymoron. There is no "ethical" way to slaughter a sentient being who wants to live. It's great that you rescue cats and donate to your local shelter--that's all very important work that no vegan I know would ever dispute. But the point I'm making is that the line many people draw is completely arbitrary--veal and lobster are no worse than any other use of animals (in fact, it can easily be argued that animals used for eggs and milk suffer *more* than animals killed for meat).

What anyone does is obviously up to them. Unfortunately, the animals whom we exploit don't have any choice in the matter. As I said earlier, being vegan isn't about *us*; it's about *them*. You know, I'm not the one being tortured and then murdered (and neither are you). Are there people who aren't interested in hearing about veganism? Sure. But there are many who are, and as I already said more than once, my posts were directed at those people.

I think you think that.

I know a great many vegans, and none of them (including myself) have a "we're better than you are" attitude. That would be silly, since most people (myself included) were not born vegan.

I was not born a many things. I decided them as my brain developed. It was informed as is most peoples by their environment.

But where you totally contradict yourself is here.

What anyone does is obviously up to them. Unfortunately, the animals whom we exploit don't have any choice in the matter. As I said earlier, being vegan isn't about *us*; it's about *them*. You know, I'm not the one being tortured and then murdered (and neither are you).

Yes I'm feeling your judginess you don't have right there.

Is it a Vegan manifesto that all animals have there toenails ripped out and fleeced alive before being slowly stabbed in slow agonisingly painful ays before having their throats cut slowly with a blunt knife?

Or are some killed in a relatively less gory way? Not like it's ok to see the grey in all things. Just pick the bits that suit you. If you do not like animals being killed for human consumption fair enough. No need to add the tortured for effect. That is the point where I see your reason and argument as emotive rather than intelligent.

[lizziesmom]

So is this thread now a battle over whether or not to eat meat?

[OkToBeTakei]

So is this thread now a battle over whether or not to eat meat?

I suppose if you want it to be it is. I actually thought it was interesting.

I never understand your type of statement. I think it is black and white views, sometimes never the twain shall meet, but it certainly makes me think. Wether I appear to agree or not, by having the discussion it can open my mind to others views. It makes me think after the fact for maybe a future discussion.

Or did you mean it was derailed? Cos' I certainly prefer the derail to Michelle's progress on Josie's progress :lol:

[August]

So you only consume animal products that you know for a fact come from a farm on which the animals are well-treated? And you only eat vegan in cases where you can't know for sure?

Yes. With the exceptions of leather, gelatin and similar by products.

Greafin, it's not a fantasy world to know that there are ehically raised and slaughtered animals out there. You may not have access to them, but I do. I found pork recently!!! Yay! It's so hard to find a place that doesn't use nose rings.

Most animals are not sentient. And if you ascribe your level of mental functioning to them, then answer me this: you must choose one of either never existing at all or being born, living a nice life and one day being insantly killed in a head on car collision with no warning. Because all those animals would never be born unless we bred them for food.

And on environmental grounds, how would you justify starving all the people who rely on animals to graze marginal land and concentrate the resources for human calories?

[graefin]

Or are some killed in a relatively less gory way? Not like it's ok to see the grey in all things.

If you are asking me this question, you are missing my entire point. I said earlier that it's *not* about treatment; it's about use. It's completely irrelevant to me whether some animals are killed in a "relatively less gory way." The point is that I do not believe it is morally right to use them at all, just like I do not believe it is OK to murder humans if you do it "in a relatively less gory way," and just like I do not believe it's OK to rape someone as long as you do so "humanely."

If you are sincerely interested in the issue, then take a look at the blogs I posted earlier, because I'm sure they will shed light on some of the issues you raise. If not, then leave it.

[graefin]

Most animals are not sentient.

If you truly believe this (and I honestly am astounded that anyone would argue that other animals do not have the ability to feel), then nothing I say will ever get through to you.

And with that, I bow out of this "debate." If anyone has any interest in any of the links I posted earlier, feel free to PM me.

[FJismyheadship]

If you truly believe this (and I honestly am astounded that anyone would argue that other animals do not have the ability to feel), then nothing I say will ever get through to you.

e.

Amy Duggar said that once when she went hunting with her ex Reed.

[OkToBeTakei]

If you are asking me this question, you are missing my entire point. I said earlier that it's *not* about treatment; it's about use. It's completely irrelevant to me whether some animals are killed in a "relatively less gory way." The point is that I do not believe it is morally right to use them at all, just like I do not believe it is OK to murder humans if you do it "in a relatively less gory way," and just like I do not believe it's OK to rape someone as long as you do so "humanely."

If you are sincerely interested in the issue, then take a look at the blogs I posted earlier, because I'm sure they will shed light on some of the issues you raise. If not, then leave it.

No. Blogs are just people who agree with you. The issue is that I love and live with all types of people who can debate it better than that. You have not even adrdessed half the issues brought up in some other comments.

Whilst I respect your choice. I do not respect your ability to see that others may not agree with you but are willing to respect your choice whilst you are not theirs.

The fact we are having this discussion at all is a first world type of issue. Food ..pun intended. Is food for thought. I am very glad we can. It shows how far humanity has come in many ways.

[OkToBeTakei]

If you truly believe this (and I honestly am astounded that anyone would argue that other animals do not have the ability to feel), then nothing I say will ever get through to you.

And with that, I bow out of this "debate." If anyone has any interest in any of the links I posted earlier, feel free to PM me.

Your choice. Debate requires longevity. Also nobody has to be right.

[lizziesmom]

I suppose if you want it to be it is. I actually thought it was interesting.

I never understand your type of statement. I think it is black and white views, sometimes never the twain shall meet, but it certainly makes me think. Wether I appear to agree or not, by having the discussion it can open my mind to others views. It makes me think after the fact for maybe a future discussion.

Or did you mean it was derailed? Cos' I certainly prefer the derail to Michelle's progress on Josie's progress :lol:

What is "my type of statement?" I was referring to the fact that the thread seems to be derailed into a debate between those who choose to eat meat and those who don't. Personally I could care less what people eat but I thought the thread was about Josie Duggar.

[OkToBeTakei]

What is "my type of statement?" I was referring to the fact that the thread seems to be derailed into a debate between those who choose to eat meat and those who don't. Personally I could care less what people eat but I thought the thread was about Josie Duggar.

Derails are part of FJ. Sometimes the best bit. What seriously can you say about Michelles's take on anything. Certainly not as intelligent or interesting as this.

I assumed your statement was inflammatory. Those I never see the point of. So my apologies lizziesmom.

[lizziesmom]

OkTBeTaki: No worries. Just noticed that except for your and my posts the latest ones were all about who eats what and why

[FiddleDD]

Here's what I've never understood about vegans (I say this not to snark, but because I'm genuinely curious), if everyone stopped eating meat and using animal products, what do they think is going to happen to all those animals? Where are they going to live? What are they going to eat? Would they have a problem with people using animal manure for gardening? Because the research I've done had led me to believe there is no sustainable gardening possible without the use of animal manure, at the very least.