Michelle on Josie's Progress

[Miggy]

Just let my husband read this thread. His comment "She home schools, doesn't she? Why don't they just make yoghurt, cheese and ice cream so that Josie sees that milk goes into them. They are easy enough to make and would be much easier than trying to explain to a three year old." My husband is far too logical to be a fundy.

[OkToBeTakei]

Yeah, I can see that situation is quite different to my family. We had substitutes for everything and it was never about the timing of meals or not getting treats. For example; ice cream was out but we've always had sorbet instead, commercial yoghurt was out but we made our own soy yoghurt, no sauce but our kids learnt about mayo and mustard young, etc. You can't punish kids for being sick but you shouldn't punish kids for having sick siblings either.

I truly wish she had your attitude. I used to feel so sorry for younger child. Older child too. The whole situation was just awkward when they stayed. My mannerly hostess side kept quiet. My inner for fuck sake self was screamimg!!

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

You live in a strange world.

Here, our fridge is filled with good and bad things. The two children who lives at home (not mine, they are at my roomate) don't use themselves in the fridge because they rarely take the fruits. Oh, and I find it sad that a child or adult nibbles throughout the day, even a balanced thing. This may be because I did not have a family life, but eating is not just something for food, it is also a social rite. Sit at the table, learning to sit still, talk with dad / mom, etc ... You must read Bourdieu (Does Bourdieu exist here ?)

I always find it sad that treating children 3 to 6 years as mini-adults.

Um, really? I think this is more of a cultural thing. First of all, I find it a little creepy, honestly, when kids (above the age of really tiny ones who can't get stuff without breaking something) have to ask for permission before eating anything. My stepson has had free access to fruit, vegetables, yogurt and other healthy stuff since he was 5. He's always known to ask permission for anything else, and usually his dad will tell him if it's an hour before dinner and then he's not supposed to have anything. He's not a genius kid or outstandingly well-behaved, but he seemed to grasp the idea pretty easily. My partner bought special glasses and plates that wouldn't break so easily that he could use, and taught him his way around the kitchen. We really value independence in this house. :) Why is it so bad to teach kids to regulate their own appetites? Secondly, on that note, not everyone is satisfied or optimally nourished with three sit-down meals a day. People's appetites don't work on a schedule any more than internal clocks. Just like some people will always be early birds or night owls, some will just never be hungry for breakfast or be able to get through the day without an occasional handful of nuts. I guess it's the lax American in me, but I fail to see how it's "sad" to nibble throughout the day for anyone of any age. Personally, I have stomach issues, so I can't eat three meals a day. I have to snack in small amounts or I'll feel sick. Other people who exercise frequently may eat 5 small meals instead. Having a "dinner time" with family and being able to eat when you're hungry are not mutually exclusive. Often I can't eat at dinner but I'll sit down with my partner and stepson and just have a yogurt and some tea and I don't think I'm destroying the kid's future manners by doing so.

[OkToBeTakei]

Um, really? I think this is more of a cultural thing. First of all, I find it a little creepy, honestly, when kids (above the age of really tiny ones who can't get stuff without breaking something) have to ask for permission before eating anything. My stepson has had free access to fruit, vegetables, yogurt and other healthy stuff since he was 5. He's always known to ask permission for anything else, and usually his dad will tell him if it's an hour before dinner and then he's not supposed to have anything. He's not a genius kid or outstandingly well-behaved, but he seemed to grasp the idea pretty easily. My partner bought special glasses and plates that wouldn't break so easily that he could use, and taught him his way around the kitchen. We really value independence in this house. :) Why is it so bad to teach kids to regulate their own appetites? Secondly, on that note, not everyone is satisfied or optimally nourished with three sit-down meals a day. People's appetites don't work on a schedule any more than internal clocks. Just like some people will always be early birds or night owls, some will just never be hungry for breakfast or be able to get through the day without an occasional handful of nuts. I guess it's the lax American in me, but I fail to see how it's "sad" to nibble throughout the day for anyone of any age. Personally, I have stomach issues, so I can't eat three meals a day. I have to snack in small amounts or I'll feel sick. Other people who exercise frequently may eat 5 small meals instead. Having a "dinner time" with family and being able to eat when you're hungry are not mutually exclusive. Often I can't eat at dinner but I'll sit down with my partner and stepson and just have a yogurt and some tea and I don't think I'm destroying the kid's future manners by doing so.

Maybe it is cultural. I don't snack. Our lives are geared toward three meals a day. I don't encourage my child to snack and it would certainly not be possible whilst she was at school to do so when she felt like it. That being said growing kids need extra boosts and certainly with the amount of sport mine does.

The asking thing is also a firm rule in my house. Couple of reasons. Manners. It goes both ways, when my child bakes I'll ask her 'Can I have one of your scones?' The other more important issue is I like to know what is going, so I can replace as required. Even my 50 yr old tells me when he has taken the last 'whatever.' Dinner is totally protected time in my house. Some days it is the only time we are all together. It's an event. We take our time and can be there at the table a good couple of hours every night.

[France Nolan]

You live in a strange world.

Here, our fridge is filled with good and bad things. The two children who lives at home (not mine, they are at my roomate) don't use themselves in the fridge because they rarely take the fruits. Oh, and I find it sad that a child or adult nibbles throughout the day, even a balanced thing. This may be because I did not have a family life, but eating is not just something for food, it is also a social rite. Sit at the table, learning to sit still, talk with dad / mom, etc ... You must read Bourdieu (Does Bourdieu exist here ?)

I always find it sad that treating children 3 to 6 years as mini-adults.

My two year old has a "snack boxes". One is kept in the refrigerator and holds things like yogurt, carrot sticks, and cheese sticks. The other is kept on a shelf she can reach and holds things like fruit, Cheerios, and graham crackers. She knows they are her snacks, and she loves having boxes dedicated solely to her use. She pretty much has free access to them unless I'm about to serve a meal.

I want her to learn to recognize when she's hungry and to make healthy food choices. If she wants to help herself to some carrot sticks, then that's fine.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

My two year old has a "snack boxes". One is kept in the refrigerator and holds things like yogurt, carrot sticks, and cheese sticks. The other is kept on a shelf she can reach and holds things like fruit, Cheerios, and graham crackers. She knows they are her snacks, and she loves having boxes dedicated solely to her use. She pretty much has free access to them unless I'm about to serve a meal.

I want her to learn to recognize when she's hungry and to make healthy food choices. If she wants to help herself to some carrot sticks, then that's fine.

This, exactly.

We have the exact opposite of the "asking" rule in our house. The idea is that there is no "my food" or "your food" in the house (though, practically speaking, the guys usually don't want to eat most of my healthy vegetarian stuff anyway ;) ) - everything is shared unless it's being specifically put aside for a recipe, or guests, or whatever. I mean, we're a (blended, unofficial) family, not a group of roommates. Oh well, whatever works. From past discussions that we've had on the board regarding this issue, it appears that snacking is really not an accepted thing in parts of Europe? I'm from Russia, but I'm also Jewish, so FOOD ALL THE TIME won in my family, I guess. :lol:

[Marianne]

Children who live with me and my roommates are rarely at home. Almost never. They are at school until 8 pm. The weekend they are with the grandparents. The little time they spend at home, it really is impossible to teach them these things. When they are hungry, they always rush to what they like, and they hate vegetables and fruits (excluding fruit juice). If the mother does not force them to eat they never eat. I really admire so parents who happen to have children who eat balanced themselves. This is not ironic, it's true: I don't see how to do this with ours :? I regret it.

[AuntCloud]

We have the exact opposite of the "asking" rule in our house. The idea is that there is no "my food" or "your food" in the house (though, practically speaking, the guys usually don't want to eat most of my healthy vegetarian stuff anyway ) - everything is shared unless it's being specifically put aside for a recipe, or guests, or whatever. I mean, we're a (blended, unofficial) family, not a group of roommates. Oh well, whatever works. From past discussions that we've had on the board regarding this issue, it appears that snacking is really not an accepted thing in parts of Europe? I'm from Russia, but I'm also Jewish, so FOOD ALL THE TIME won in my family, I guess.

If I dared ask my grandma if I could have a certain food, she'd answer "why do you think I made it - for sale?".

I'm from your neck of the woods. Children and adults are fed constantly, like it or not, and you most certainly never refuse a hungry child. I know exactly where this attitude stems from - times where you were not concerned about dinner time but more about simply keeping your children alive. I realize it's not as refined as the European approach to food, but it's my culture and my family, where food = love and caring, both given anytime in unlimited quantities.

[Coconut Flan]

We've had that culture war already. I don't think either side is superior. There is some merit to be found in either system as long as rigidity isn't the prime consideration in my view.

[clicker dies]

Re: grandmas - Whenever I would go to my paternal grandparents' house as a child, my grandma would immediately offer to make me a sandwich or some other kind of food. They're Italian. Food is a recognized expression of love.

Of course my cousins and I were incapable of making healthy food choices and would wolf down whatever she would give us, which has led us all to have struggles with weight (not shaming any body type, believe me, just stating what I and my cousins experienced). I eat better now, for sure. That includes snacking throughout the day and smaller meals. With health food. It's cultural, nobody's side is better or worse.

My grandma still tries to feed me a thousand things when I visit her :lol:

[AuntCloud]

I don't have the energy for another culture war - I truly realize each culture and family are unique, and also realize the way we do it is far from perfect, but it's *our* way.

Attitudes towards food and eating are complex and visceral (ha). I will still allow my kids to grab a yogurt at 10 am or a bowl of cereal at 4 pm while being looked down on since we don't stick to regular meal times, not because we're spoiled Americans who can't go hungry for more than 3 seconds or eat take-out in the car 100% of the time because they can't be bothered to set the table and too lazy to cook, but because of deeper reasons strongly attached to our culture and family.

Some people keep a pantry stocked for a nuclear war. Is it wise? is it safe? Is it frugal? No, no and no. But if they do it for their own sense of security then who am I to tell them not to?

[freealljs]

I recall an episode where Johannah put a yogurt in front of Josie to snack on and I bet this was way after they found out about her dairy issues.

I call BS on this latest parentable.

[dairyfreelife]

My late grandfather was severely lactose intolerant. He couldn't eat ice cream without taking lactaid pills first, same with yogurt... Somehow I think that Duggars are too cheap to buy Josie lactaid pills or lactose free/dairy free yogurt (which is easily 3x more expensive than the cheap stuff).

Personally, those supplements did jackshit for me. They work for some people, but not everyone. It's just easier to avoid all dairy and save myself both the aggravation and the misery. Soy yogurt is more expensive and same with coconut, rice or soy milk ice cream, but it's not horrible in price. I buy mine at Kroger's and some Wal-Marts stock them as well. Health Food stores like Whole Foods Market stock them, but I think they are more expensive. Can't say for certain as there's not a WFM anyone in my state.

[OkToBeTakei]

I don't have the energy for another culture war - I truly realize each culture and family are unique, and also realize the way we do it is far from perfect, but it's *our* way.

Attitudes towards food and eating are complex and visceral (ha). I will still allow my kids to grab a yogurt at 10 am or a bowl of cereal at 4 pm while being looked down on since we don't stick to regular meal times, not because we're spoiled Americans who can't go hungry for more than 3 seconds or eat take-out in the car 100% of the time because they can't be bothered to set the table and too lazy to cook, but because of deeper reasons strongly attached to our culture and family.

Some people keep a pantry stocked for a nuclear war. Is it wise? is it safe? Is it frugal? No, no and no. But if they do it for their own sense of security then who am I to tell them not to?

Why on earth would it need to be a war and why on earth would you think people look down on the way you feed your family? Weird.

Every culture has traditions and even within that culture people differ as do families. I could never eat my main meal at lunchtime as many here do, that makes it neither right or wrong, just different. Time constraints, life work all dictate patterns for every family I imagine.

The snack thing is just totally unnecessary to me and works fine for my child, the only time she expresses hunger tends to be before mealtimes. Possibly because that is the way she was brought up, or her make-up and that meal pattern suits her. Not the case for all kids. You adapt to your kids, my nephew has sensory issues and detests a lot of food on his plate so mealtimes are suited to him. When he stays with me he may have 6 small meals a day, though he loves to sit with us, he also loves you to sit with him and chat when he eats at other times.

Snacks I suppose for me are treats, the good things in life. Cereal is for breakfast and yoghurt is for after dinner :lol: I think it really is down to possibly the way you are brought up and personal preference. Attitude as well, I live to eat. Not eat to live. Food is a total pleasure and I know how lucky that makes me when you take into consideration how some struggle to stay alive.

I've had kids come to play who help themselves out of the fridge or take a biscuit. Fair enough they are allowed to do that at home. Mine is not and I would not like her to do it in anybody else's house. Some things are just rude.

[mockingbird]

I think part of the snacking thing is cultural. Most preschools, kindergartens and even some elementary schools have "snack time" around here. It's also not unusual to have a snack in the afternoon at work, or something similar. Also, my family always has a snack a few hours after dinner but I guess you could count that as dessert. I remember all us kids having snacks together in the summer, and my mom was involved, so I don't remember if we had to ask... I think mainly with junk food type snacks, but I also think more often when we were younger my mom would just pull out one type of snack and offer that to everyone so it was less work.

For me I have a really hard time eating enough with just three meals to last me until the next one, so my doctor actually told me it was better for me to snack healthily/eat 5-6 small meals. I've gotten better at picking meals with more protein for times when I know I won't be able to snack between meals, but it's still better if I can have a snack. This doesn't mean I can't/don't eat with other people (like family dinner), it's not mutually exclusive, but for some people it does suit them better to eat smaller amounts less often. I had special permission to eat snacks during class in high school, lol.

[Arete]

OMTS, Aunt Cloud and I may go to different houses of prayer, but we worship the same food God. ;) My family is from Europe and insisted on keeping many of our food rituals intact. I also go to Europe every other year. There is no one European food culture. In Greece, when kids get home from school, they are practically COMMANDED to snack. Children do not ask permission to get into the fruit baskets, grab some yogurt, or sandwich some cheese into bread. In fact, there is a piece of "folkwisdom" that says if kids don't get something to eat after school, they will not be able to study properly. The only time they are going to get denied is right before a meal. A sit down meal with everybody once a day is a big deal, a ritual where there is no TV and no one is reading their newspaper.

Not trying to start a war, I realize there are different strokes for different folks, but I just can't let the impression being made that "Americans snack" and "Europeans don't" stand.

[France Nolan]

I don't care how other people/cultures serve food or make it available to their kids. I was bothered that Marianne said that those of us who let our kids graze and have free access to healthy foods live in a "strange world" and found it "sad". The way I raise my kid isn't sad. Different from how you might choose to, but certainly not sad or strange.

[ADoyle90815]

My daughter had the same prematurity related intolerance to dairy. Thankfully she's grown out of it now and as long as she doesn't over do it, like eat a lb of cheese in one sitting, she's fine. Josie *should* be able to tolerate small amounts of dairy by now, most preemies can cope with tiny amounts by 3.5 yes. I suspect Michelle doesn't understand it and thinks Josie must avoid all dairy, forever. Prematurity related intolerance to dairy is rarely lifelong.

This. I've mentioned before that my youngest cousin on my dad's side was born the same gestational age as Josie, and since that was 27 years ago, he nearly died and still has significant developmental delays as a result of his birth. He did have that intolerance to dairy, but eventually, he grew out of it by the time he was 3.5. As an adult, he's still able to tolerate dairy, but he doesn't over do it at all.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Why on earth would it need to be a war and why on earth would you think people look down on the way you feed your family? Weird.

Every culture has traditions and even within that culture people differ as do families. I could never eat my main meal at lunchtime as many here do, that makes it neither right or wrong, just different. Time constraints, life work all dictate patterns for every family I imagine.

The snack thing is just totally unnecessary to me and works fine for my child, the only time she expresses hunger tends to be before mealtimes. Possibly because that is the way she was brought up, or her make-up and that meal pattern suits her. Not the case for all kids. You adapt to your kids, my nephew has sensory issues and detests a lot of food on his plate so mealtimes are suited to him. When he stays with me he may have 6 small meals a day, though he loves to sit with us, he also loves you to sit with him and chat when he eats at other times.

Snacks I suppose for me are treats, the good things in life. Cereal is for breakfast and yoghurt is for after dinner :lol: I think it really is down to possibly the way you are brought up and personal preference. Attitude as well, I live to eat. Not eat to live. Food is a total pleasure and I know how lucky that makes me when you take into consideration how some struggle to stay alive.

I've had kids come to play who help themselves out of the fridge or take a biscuit. Fair enough they are allowed to do that at home. Mine is not and I would not like her to do it in anybody else's house. Some things are just rude.

Now that, I agree, is totally rude. Both my mom and I were horrified the first time that a friend of mine came over (I think I was maybe 13?) and, declaring she was hungry, proceeded to open the fridge and make herself a sandwich. :pink-shock: I guess not everyone tells their kids that the way you behave at home is not always the way you behave when you're someone's guest...

[OkToBeTakei]

I don't care how other people/cultures serve food or make it available to their kids. I was bothered that Marianne said that those of us who let our kids graze and have free access to healthy foods live in a "strange world" and found it "sad". The way I raise my kid isn't sad. Different from how you might choose to, but certainly not sad or strange.

Ah right. I see. Language difference maybe?

I am fascinated how other people live in general, why, how it came about etc. Neither to me is right or wrong unless it is harmful in any way, other than that, as I said what works for the individual and individual taste.

That's interesting about snack time in kindergarten etc. It's playtime here. Snack is optional, some Mum's practically pack a mini meal, others nothing and everything in between. The school has a no crisps and no sweet rule though.

I think another interesting fact is actually WHAT people who eat say three meals or six actually eat. I suppose most people roughly try to stick to a healthy yardstick of RDA's I do (roughly, very roughly some days.) Most days with added fruit for as you say grazing, I could probably not physically WANT anything further.

Generally say if the child and I for a treat after school go for say a coffee (hot chocolate) and a scone or cake. I generally will make a lighter dinner or it goes to waste. Same if we are planning as we are tonight a pretend cinema night. Light dinner (curried carrot soup, ciabatta. Rhubarb fool.) We will totally enjoy some nachos or popcorn and sweets later.

I was thinking about the asking thing. Habit maybe and quite perfunctory really. 'Mum I'm getting an apple, ok? Mum I'm going to make my sandwich for lunch, ok? Mum, can I take 5 ice-lollies to the park for my pals?' Not particularly formal. Just the way it is.

I stay with my sister a lot and very often my BIL and I spend lovely evenings drinking a good red. I always love some cheeky wee cheese and biscuits. Even though I know they absolutely would not mind I would never dream of not asking. I'll say to BIL. 'Alright if I get some biscuits.' He will reply 'Only if you make me some.' So maybe just one of those daft things people do like apologising to the person you bumped into :lol:

[OkToBeTakei]

Now that, I agree, is totally rude. Both my mom and I were horrified the first time that a friend of mine came over (I think I was maybe 13?) and, declaring she was hungry, proceeded to open the fridge and make herself a sandwich. :pink-shock: I guess not everyone tells their kids that the way you behave at home is not always the way you behave when you're someone's guest...

Holy shit :lol: I bet like me, you and your Mum just stood and watched. Manners are so funny. It is a rude thing to do but even ruder to stop a guest per se :lol:

I mean it's not like when you have kids or guests over you are not going to offer them something anyway.

Saying that there is a joke in Scotland about the stereotypical meanness. When you arrive at somebodies house they will say 'You'll have had yer dinner! (lunch,breakfast) :lol:

[Hane]

Re the practicing "Others may have it, but I may not": I think that in Duggarland this is being made into an obedience issue rather than a health one. "Others may have it, but I may not" sounds submissive; "I'm allergic to milk products" sounds assertive.

As a small child, I had many allergies (most of which I've outgrown), but, even in the '50s, with a decidedly NOT lenient mother, I remember telling a friend's mother I was allergic to tomatoes, and she made me a dish of pasta without them.

Re what OKtobeTakei said above: When I was dating my future second husband, he and his kids were at my apartment one day. His four-year-old came running to tell me that my four-year-old had "snookted strawberries" out of the fridge. I quickly told him, "This is her house, and she has the right to have a snack if she's hungry. Would you like some, too?" I guess his mother had very different rules. I also kept a bowl of fruit like apples, pears, and bananas on the kitchen table for anyone who wanted any.

[Marianne]

I don't care how other people/cultures serve food or make it available to their kids. I was bothered that Marianne said that those of us who let our kids graze and have free access to healthy foods live in a "strange world" and found it "sad". The way I raise my kid isn't sad. Different from how you might choose to, but certainly not sad or strange.

I'm really sorry if you have understand my post like this. It's difficult to express his thoughts in another language. But when I read things on the fridge "free access" it makes me think of all our childhood and adolesence (my roommate and I) where our host families (family who welcomes children of the social services of state. No adoptive families. Many family - not all - do it for the monney) did not meal "for us," the children of the state. Just "you use in the fridge, eat what you want.". Oh, for me it was the best, because I have a health problem that I can't eat too much at once, I have to make 6 or 8 mini-meals a day, but it was really sad. But I understand that you are felt insulted. I'm really sorry.

[Hane]

I must give Marianne a pass here: Unlike most of us here, she grew up in a succession of state foster homes in France.

[Smoochie]

As someone who is severely lactose intolerant too, there are so many options available.

Pills don't always work for me, so I determine when it's 'safe' to take them and eat dairy in the off chance they don't work. They also have the drops you can use in milk to breakdown the sugar that causes the pain, discomfort and diarrhea.

However, pretty much all dairy foods now come in lactose free versions. Especially in the U.S. I was amazed at the variety and selection there was, much more than in Canada. Are they a little bit more expensive, yes, but it allows you to have some of what everyone else is having. Plus, lets face it, they all have the latest iPhone's and Josie works for TLC too, so there is no excuse for not having product she can eat!