Michelle on Josie's Progress

[Chibi Author]

Michelle in regards to Josie's issues just makes me angry. I'd like to think that they tried alternatives to yogurt, and she just didn't like them, but I seriously doubt it.

And there is no way she's writing these on her own. Maybe I'm alone in this, but Michelle strikes me as way too savvy to purposely let herself be perceived as neglectful of her children in any way, especially in regards to the spelling of a child's name.

Sorry to continue the threadjack, I just find these cultural questions around food and hospitality really fascinating. Just another quick thing on hosting/being a guest. My partner and I LOVE cooking and having guests for dinner. When I invite folks over, I always ask them if they have any allergies, sensitivities, or just things that they don't like. ESPECIALLY if there are kids coming too! And then once I plan my menu I might check again: "You like cabbage right? Can your kids have chocolate?" Maybe a little obsessive on my part, but that way I never have an issue with a guest feeling left out or not getting enough to eat or whatever, and the guests don't have to worry about seeming rude if they don't try something.

In my experience though, some hostesses not only would never do anything like this, but also consider it rude if you don't eat something even if you do have a valid reason. Obviously that's a whole other etiquette issue - I don't understand it at all. I have been told it's rude not to eat meat when you're a guest even if you're a vegetarian! I also remember a few years ago, there was an email that went viral which had been sent to a young woman by her future MIL after a visit in which, among other things, the future MIL accused the young woman of rudeness for turning down something that she couldn't have due to her DIABETES.

THIS, so many times! You sound like an amazing hostess.

My family and most of my social group is chock full of food allergies - all the way from minor to practically needing hospitalization, dealing with dairy, gluten, eggs, soy, onions, high fructose corn syrup, etc - and working around allergies is a necessity. (Personally, I also like labeling things. Ingredient lists make me happy.)

I think I remember that letter! Ugh, that poor woman. I hope she's surviving her in-laws.

(Seriously OT, but my grandmother added eggs to all the dishes at Thanksgiving one year, because she was convinced that my brother's severe allergy was "all in his head". Needless to say, he completely refuses to go over to her house for a meal anymore.)

I have a question since we're still talking food etiquette. If two vegans have a wedding, should they feel obliged to offer a meat option at the reception? Should the fact that the groom's father will talk about this for years make a difference? He might be a jerk about it at the reception also.

No ideas to offer, but I hope that your friends are able to do what they want to without offending anyone. :( That's a terrible situation.

[OkToBeTakei]

I don't like this vegans serving meat false equivalency. Meat-eaters can eat both meat and non-meat, so having only non-meat options doesn't affect them in any way. Vegans can't eat meat at all, so having only meat options means they just don't eat. Why is it so hard for people to see the difference? Is it really so hard to just not eat meat for one meal of your life?

It would not bother me in the least to eat vegan food for a wedding. One meal of your life argument etc.

I had vegan guests who stayed for a week, I was totally prepared to cater for them in every way possible I could, they were my guests. They in return expected me, my partner and my then 2 year old to also eat vegan for the week. I did it. Oh also my elderly parents who I had invited to join us for dinner one night. But there is one false part of your statement. 'Vegans can't eat meat at all.' No they CHOOSE to not eat meat. It is a lifestyle choice not a life threatening allergy to meat in the majority of cases. It was most certainly choice for ethical reasons in my guests. Just as I would be heartily sick of somebody trying to stuff their religion down my throat in my own home, I was by the end of the week extremely happy to see the back of the food fundies who did nothing but look down on us poor meat eaters.

So whilst this is the extreme of the spectrum whilst most vegans/vegetarians I know are lovely some just like everything in life are twats with no manners (manners again :lol: )

[User123456]

I have a question since we're still talking food etiquette. If two vegans have a wedding, should they feel obliged to offer a meat option at the reception? Should the fact that the groom's father will talk about this for years make a difference? He might be a jerk about it at the reception also.

I would hope that if they are having a huge formal dinner and the hours long reception, then they do offer a non-vegan option. Speaking as a fragile diabetic surrounded by militant vegan family members, I've had several lifetimes of arguments over the fact that for me a meat-based meal with veggies is far safer that a whole grain based meal... But I've very special diet needs.

If the wedding is about making their guests feel completely comfortable, then they need to have a non-vegan option. If the wedding is about making a political statement, then by all means "tofu and seaweed" for everyone (I am being extremely cheeky here!). If they would like to remain true to their diet choice, perhaps a "nibbles and dessert" reception would be easier than a formal meal.

(By the way....they do not need to do a "prime rib/kill the pig" non-vegan option. A simply prepared fish or chicken dish is completely fine.)

[OkToBeTakei]

The problem comes when you have people who say they will cater for you but don't. Sometimes it's deliberate or because they just don't care enough to find out what dairy free/gluten free/vegan/whatever actually is but usually because the restrictions are much more complex than avoiding one simple thing and that an innocuous looking ingredient isn't as innocent as all that. When you've been burnt a few times, you tend to be wary.

I understand and if I was not sure and it was a special need diet in regards to health such as the intolerances you mention, my inclination is to be led by the individual. For instance ,I would love to cook for you, tell me your favourite dish and how you like it made.' etc.

The vegetarian in question totally threw me as she knew we were meat eaters, she chose to not have a bean burger or halloumi burger and stick with all the sides and buffet as my grill had in fact been used to cook meat prior to it's extreme clean. But as my partner pointed out, so was the plate she ate off and the cutlery she used. :think:

[MrMattyMatt]

My take..

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

My take..

Fair enough! :lol:

Some few years ago I went to a 4th of July barbecue at the home of a longtime friend and her now-husband. When I go to a BBQ I always bring veggie burgers with me because a lot of folks forget vegetarians exist when planning to grill. :D I don't do it in order to make a BFD out of being a veg. It actually saves the host grief too, because I'll never forget how distraught one hostess became at a BBQ because there were only meat burgers and dogs and I was the only one just eating sides. Anyway, at this BBQ the now-husband made such a fuss about my veggie burgers. He kept poking them, looking at them weirdly, talking about how he didn't know what to do with them or how to grill them (dude, a minute or two on each side and they can't be RAW, so it's actually easier), and generally making me feel incredibly awkward. Finally he asked me WHY I didn't eat meat, and when I explained (health, factory farms, etc.) I was suddenly accused by EVERYONE at the party of judging the carnivores. :angry-banghead:

[SPHASH]

Because having alternatives just for Josie will make her an individual, which is EVIL!! Everyone knows that Michelle and Jimbob are the only ones allowed to be people in their house, the rest are just props for their lives who must all be the same.

Its almost as bad as the one that doesnt like pickles. That was the one Michelle had exorcised.

I forget which one doesn't like pickles?

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I forget which one doesn't like pickles?

I thought it was just Jim-Bob who didn't like them? I remember a tiny Josiah in the first special citing that as proof that not everyone in his family was the same.

If it is one of the kids, I hope he or she gets a substitute in their weird Christmas gift bag.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I dont know, in one episode it was mentioned that they were all different, and used someone not liking pickles as an example. I have no idea which one, but I imagine it really sucks to be that one, because they get pickles for pretty much every special occaision.

My guess is Jana. Her life sucks anyway, so this would just add to it.

[OkToBeTakei]

Fair enough! :lol:

Some few years ago I went to a 4th of July barbecue at the home of a longtime friend and her now-husband. When I go to a BBQ I always bring veggie burgers with me because a lot of folks forget vegetarians exist when planning to grill. :D I don't do it in order to make a BFD out of being a veg. It actually saves the host grief too, because I'll never forget how distraught one hostess became at a BBQ because there were only meat burgers and dogs and I was the only one just eating sides. Anyway, at this BBQ the now-husband made such a fuss about my veggie burgers. He kept poking them, looking at them weirdly, talking about how he didn't know what to do with them or how to grill them (dude, a minute or two on each side and they can't be RAW, so it's actually easier), and generally making me feel incredibly awkward. Finally he asked me WHY I didn't eat meat, and when I explained (health, factory farms, etc.) I was suddenly accused by EVERYONE at the party of judging the carnivores. :angry-banghead:

I'm impressed you put them on the grill :lol:

I think the moment you appear to comment even inadvertently on other's choices of lifestyle you wander into that situation. Sure, you are just explaining that in your view it is better for your health, that animals are treated abysmally etc. etc. But if everybody else there is busy eating said cruelly treated, unhealthy meat, why on earth would you think they would not be offended?

My friend for that reason in company she does not know really well, just says she does not like meat. She saves the lectures for her besties, like me :lol: Makes for a better social evening.

[MrMattyMatt]

Jim Bob isn't fond of pickles and Jackson stated in one of the Japan episodes that he didn't like them anymore.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I'm impressed you put them on the grill :lol:

I think the moment you appear to comment even inadvertently on other's choices of lifestyle you wander into that situation. Sure, you are just explaining that in your view it is better for your health, that animals are treated abysmally etc. etc. But if everybody else there is busy eating said cruelly treated, unhealthy meat, why on earth would you think they would not be offended?

My friend for that reason in company she does not know really well, just says she does not like meat. She saves the lectures for her besties, like me :lol: Makes for a better social evening.

Literally, all I said was, "I feel better when I don't eat meat, and I have ethical issues with factory farms." Also everyone there was a friend I'd known since middle school except the husband. Like I said, I don't proselytize, but if you ask me, especially after endless prodding, I'm not going to give you an answer that makes you feel better.

[OkToBeTakei]

Literally, all I said was, "I feel better when I don't eat meat, and I have ethical issues with factory farms." Also everyone there was a friend I'd known since middle school except the husband. Like I said, I don't proselytize, but if you ask me, especially after endless prodding, I'm not going to give you an answer that makes you feel better.

Obviously :lol:

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Obviously :lol:

:lol: I'm very polite up to point. Then I fall right off the cliff. :lol:

[Handmaiden of Dog]

I don't like this vegans serving meat false equivalency. Meat-eaters can eat both meat and non-meat, so having only non-meat options doesn't affect them in any way. Vegans can't eat meat at all, so having only meat options means they just don't eat. Why is it so hard for people to see the difference? Is it really so hard to just not eat meat for one meal of your life?

A Vegan wedding would be a bit more extreme than just "no meat." There would also be no gelatin, no dairy and no eggs-- making edible vegan cake is pretty difficult. As a guest who eats only very low carb I would probably eat only raw crudites-- most vegan dishes are loaded with starch. But as a guest I would never complain or expect anything other than what I was served-- I would just hope that I would be notified in advance so that I could eat before the wedding.

Still I agree that a couple who are vegans for ethical reasons should not be forced to pay for animal products just because they are getting married. On the other hand if the father of the bride is footing the bill, then I would hope they would compromise.

[formergothardite]

I've had some really good vegan cupcakes. They weren't healthy at all, but they were yummy.

[gezykah]

Some of this discussion is starting to remind me of a vacation I took last year with a couple of friends. One is vegetarian and the other has a ton of food allergies and can't eat gluten. At one point we were at a restaurant and they both said I must feel bad going out to eat with them. I just laughed and said I made out great because I could eat off of their plates but they couldn't touch mine. Nobody lectured anybody about their eating habits and we all had a great time. Maybe I'm spoiled but I live in an area with a ton of good vegan/vegetarian/gluten free options. Now that I think about it I might be passing a place today that makes a great ginger peach bellini vegan cupcake and I'm fairly certain they're open...Perhaps it wouldn't be the best idea for a vegan couple to serve nothing but tofu and seitan at a wedding but I don't think they should be under any obligation to serve meat. Would it kill their guests to have eggplant parm instead of chicken parm? Nobody exclusively eats meat but some people don't eat it at all so there should be a way for reasonable people with different dietary restrictions to find a common ground.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I've had some really good vegan cupcakes. They weren't healthy at all, but they were yummy.

Vegan desserts, IMO, work best when lots of chocolate is involved. You can make a good, rich chocolate batter without using eggs and butter. I find that other flavors are a little more difficult, and harder to keep from falling apart. I also once had an amazing - if you can believe it - RAW VEGAN cake. It was made with layers of bananas, coconut, dates, carob, and something that I swear tasted and had a texture like cream. Soooo good, and no butter, eggs, sugar, or even baking required! Probably not to everyone's taste though. Sometimes, I really do just want a good basic slice of vanilla birthday cake.

[Coconut Flan]

First thanks everyone for input on the possibly vegan wedding reception. I've passed some ideas along to the happy couple. Oh and the couple is paying for the wedding except for maybe some gifts from the parents.

A cocktail reception is out as the groom doesn't want to serve a ton of alcohol. Ethics again I guess. Not wanting to send a bunch of sloshed people out driving. Champagne for toasting is still OK I think.

It will be a small to very small wedding. No more than 50 at the maximum and possibly as few as 15 to 20 guests. It will not be a long drawn out huge formal reception. I've suggested a brunch or luncheon option as less of a feeling of a needs meat meal for the groom's father. As far as anyone knows there are no guests with diabetes. There are some family guests from the groom's side who are on the B list who might not get it about no meat so that may help determine the size of the wedding. The cake or cupcakes have been solved by an excellent vegan bakery. I've had their products and wouldn't have known they were vegan. They're probably also gluten free. I haven't asked what entrees they are considering but I probably should. I know seitan will not be featured. :)

[alysee]

A Vegan wedding would be a bit more extreme than just "no meat." There would also be no gelatin, no dairy and no eggs-- making edible vegan cake is pretty difficult. As a guest who eats only very low carb I would probably eat only raw crudites-- most vegan dishes are loaded with starch. But as a guest I would never complain or expect anything other than what I was served-- I would just hope that I would be notified in advance so that I could eat before the wedding.

Still I agree that a couple who are vegans for ethical reasons should not be forced to pay for animal products just because they are getting married. On the other hand if the father of the bride is footing the bill, then I would hope they would compromise.

I am vegan and my husband is vegetarian. I also have friends and one other family member who are vegetarian. For our wedding we had lots of options for meat eaters, for vegetarians and vegans. It wasn't a big deal. Yes the wedding cake was vegan but we also had about 8 other desserts that weren't vegan. It only becomes a big deal when people make it a big deal. If your family and friends love and know you they won't expect you to change your views on something that is that important to you.

I'll admit my parents paid for our wedding but I would have put meat dishes anyways. I know I am not a super special snowflake and it isn't just about me.

[graefin]

There would also be no gelatin, no dairy and no eggs-- making edible vegan cake is pretty difficult.

Making a vegan cake is actually not hard at all. I've had tons of vegan cakes and they were all delicious and indistinguishable from nonvegan cakes. See http://vegantreats.com/ and http://www.cinnamonsnail.com/ for examples.

[Flossie]

So it seems that Michelle and Boob needs to learn the difference between a food intolerance and an actual allergy. That's going to be hard because I haven't noticed either of them to use their brain very much when it comes to their kids. They'd need to cut out dairy products for a few days and gradually introduce them one food at a time to really find out what sets off Josie's intolerance and what doesn't. They'd have to pay attention and keep notes. They'd have to stop letting the other kids moniter Josie and do it themselves. And they'd have to go through the whole process every year or so with the foods that cause problems to see if Josie is handling the problem foods better or not. The whole time they'd have to keep talking to Josie about what's happening and why, because if Josie can't understand a lot right now, she can at least learn that too much of some foods cause her trouble. Over time Josie would understand more, but only if she had it explained to her in a way that she could understand.

This would require Michelle and Boob to learn and the people they'd have to learn from are doctors and probably a nutritionist. Never mind, just scream "Oh no! Milk" when you notice Josie eating a dairy product and ignore it the rest of the time.

Or they could just pray it away. I'm surprised they haven't looked to see what Josie's sin was that caused this 'allergy', according to Gothard so many health problems are caused by sin.

On the other hand, maybe Michelle had some vague recollection of Josie not tolerating mild products before and used it to make herself look like Mother of the Year even if Josie has already outgrown the intolerance.

[lizziesmom]

Jim Bob and Michelle's ignorance on healthy food choices is right up there with their ignorance on most subjects outside of Jesus.

[Flossie]

Jim Bob and Michelle's ignorance on healthy food choices is right up there with their ignorance on most subjects outside of Jesus.

I don't think they even really understand the teachings of Jesus, they only know what Gothard has taught them, and even then they seem to pick and choose which rules to follow.

[Sobeknofret]

I have a question since we're still talking food etiquette. If two vegans have a wedding, should they feel obliged to offer a meat option at the reception? Should the fact that the groom's father will talk about this for years make a difference? He might be a jerk about it at the reception also.

No. They have the right to offer whatever meal they feel like. Besides, it's one meal out of millions that they will consume throughout their lifetimes. If they don't like it, they can stop off for fast food on the way home. Plus, as a carnivore myself, I've had some damn delicious vegan meals!