The Continuing Fall of VF and Doug Phillips is a tool-Part 4

[Cleopatra7]

On the latest Jen's Gem's, someone mentions that polygamy is being advocated on the DL in some patriarchy circles, and one prominent SAHD has become a sister wife. Does anyone know anything about this or who they could be referring to?

[thekate]

On the latest Jen's Gem's, someone mentions that polygamy is being advocated on the DL in some patriarchy circles, and one prominent SAHD has become a sister wife. Does anyone know anything about this or who they could be referring to?

So there's hope for Sarah Maxwell yet!

I'll be in the prayer closet. :embarrassed:

[gustava]

I need Cliff's Notes. Yall, I'm never going to catch up. I've been trying to curb my natural fundie snark, but I saw a thread about the Arndts and I'm all in again. I can't quit & there is no 12 step, hell even if there was I wouldn't be able to do it. :shrug:

No 12 Steps but maybe the 10 Commandments :D :D :D

[mrs]

So there's hope for Sarah Maxwell yet!

I'll be in the prayer closet. :embarrassed:

I have speculated in the past that I believe(IMHO) the QF/CP movement would progress to polygamy. I am curious about about the comment. I wonder who is advocating for it? :?

[debrand]

More wondering on Jen's blog if Doug was Jewish

and I still question his “christianityâ€â€¦â€¦..No Jesus, No love………No Christianity. All I see is Old Testament, judgement, condemnation and more deeply rooted in JEWISH roots than Jesus, the NEW covenant and Christ and the cross……….so SO sad :(

Jen Says:

December 12, 2013 at 12:09 am

You know, watchfuleyes, this really does boil down to “No Jesus,†doesn’t it?

P. Fury Says:

December 12, 2013 at 12:57 am

I know some have scoffed at me wondering if DP is really Jewish in his beliefs, and not really saved. But preaching exclusively from the OT just validates my point. I’m not trying to be anti-Semitic, or racist in suggesting this, just trying to prove his brand of Christianity doesn’t line up with the historical Christianity as the church father’s preached.

If he really never preached from the NT, this is a serious problem. I can understand a balance of OT and NT, but only the OT. What about preaching about our risen Lord?

Just more proof he’s a cult leader.

Ironically, Doug is not reading the Old Testament in a Jewish manner but the way a Christian fundamentalist would.

Tw responds

T.W. Eston Says:

December 12, 2013 at 8:33 am

P. Fury, I concur that it’s not “anti-Semitic, or racist†to point out that Doug Phillips, in many respects, thinks and acts more like a Jew than a Christian. In his behavior he’s certainly gives no indication that he’s a Christian. At the very least he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

As Jen and others have noted, Doug’s preaching at BCA is almost exclusively from the Old Testament. Now I love the OT as much as any Christian could, and some of the greatest heros of the Bible are OT characters (Joseph and Daniel being two of my favorites). But there is something most peculiar about any Christian preacher who never preaches from the NT. To do so is in stark contrast of Paul’s testimony to “declare the whole counsel of God.â€

That’s troubling enough as it is, but even in Doug’s expositing of the OT, he often does so through what seems to be a Talmudic filter.

[Cleopatra7]

Since the Old Testament patriarchs were all polygamists, and these Christian patriarchs model themselves on these characters, it's not surprising that some of them would find the idea of plural wives interesting. A dislike of democracy and egalitarianism runs through Christian patriarchy (I suspect this is another reason they like the Old South), and polygamist societies are un-democratic by their very nature. Also, it becomes much easier to achieve multigenerational faithfulness if there are several women having babies at the same time. Unless a woman is super-fertile like Michelle Duggar or Kelly Bates, she probably won't have a double digit number of kids, and if she does it will take at least 20 years to happen. With polygamy, a would-be patriarch can have a baseball team's worth of kids in less than a decade, depending on how many wives he has. An overworked homeschooling mom may well enjoy having the childbearing duties spread around and possibly the companionship of a sister mom. When you think about it, it's easy to see how polygamy could take root in this subculture. All this being said, I don't think that there will be too many patriarchs announcing their embrace of polygamy at a local homeschooling conference. It probably happens within the stifling confines of a FIC, where people don't ask too many questions about the internal workings of other people's families.

[Palimpsest]

Jen is scrubbing her blog of the J. Grady story? That seems to be one commenter's concern, over there. I'll be offline today so I can't find out any more for the near future. Carry on!!

Nope. The commenter, Catherine, on JensGems says that Mrs. R is being scrubbed from the VF blog.

And why are all things G**** being scrubbed from his VF blog, but “Cassandra†is still there? This whole thing keeps getting more and more bizzare.

Look, I know I'm a cynic, and questioning the accuracy of the accusations over at JensGems annoys some people -- but T.W. Eston and Jen are contradicting themselves right, left and center. First they know something for a fact, then they don't. Example, is Hero still with Doug? They previously said categorically that she had broken off the relationship and had left BCA with her family in January. Now, according to T.W., she is holding hands with Doug in February. And according to Jen she is hearing reports that they are still in a relationship.:roll:

Also, T.W. makes an accusation and then Jen says, "Oh we are not accusing DP of that!" Even some commenters are beginning to balk and question them in this latest post.

Look at the hearsay and heavy innuendo here: T.W. Eston writes:

Why would Doug Phillips make promise after promise, year after year, of marriage and children to another woman when, by his own doctrinal standards, he could have no lawful means of getting out of his current marriage? His only out is if Beall were to die.

Several people, knowing Doug’s extreme views on divorce and remarriage, have emailed Jen and I expressing their deep concerns for Beall’s safety. It would be hard to miss the implications of where Doug Phillips’ extremist views might ultimately lead, and for those who have been following my articles you already know my take on Doug Phillips’ mental condition. Those already familiar with such personality disorders know what a narcissistic sociopath is capable of.

So isn't he implying that Beall is at risk of being murdered? But ...

Jen Says:

December 11, 2013 at 11:33 pm

Notaprincess, we are not accusing Doug of planning to murder his wife, but we are trying to figure out what all the options could be. There seem to be very few options here, and if I were the wife, I would at least want to know the options.

OK. :roll:

Way back on page 15 Taylormaid asked me:

I wonder if perhaps where you and I differ is on the quality of evidence. I want Doug to go down, but don't much care as to whether it is in a court of law, or the court of public opinion. And between the two, the standards of evidence are very different. Skepticism is healthy, but where should it end? If it's the anonymity that gets you, do you have any ideas on how that could be resolved while still keeping victims safe? I was part of a harassment case, and couldn't be upfront because they couldn't guarantee protection. It took a large volume of anonymous claims to bring the harasser down, but it did eventually happen.

Sorry, I didn't respond to this before, TaylorMaid.

Here's the thing, we are not talking about an HR-type harassment matter here where victims and witnesses need to be kept safe from repercussions anymore (Doug is out and defanged) so protection against whom and whose anonimity did you mean?

"Outing" and shaming the victim in the way T.W. has Hero/Cassandra in this latest post stinks. Likewise, Mrs. Robinson. Keeping his "sources" confidential sounds fine -- if he does indeed have sources and isn't just making stuff up and telling people what they want to hear. Again, keeping his sources safe from what and whom? T.W. himself says that the threat from Doug and his minions is over.

T.W. and his "sources" should be talking to the DA's Office, not posting all this stuff on the internet. That would help to keep them safe from Doug and Co. and ensure that facts are properly assessed and collected. And prosecuted if necessary.

Some of the accusations T.W. is making go well beyond harassment when it comes to criminal offenses. Clergy abuse (a crime in Texas) and having sex with a 17 year old member of his church in states where the age for consent is 18, rather than 17. Also, he has accused Doug of embezzlement, tax evasion and general financial mismanagement.

I don't doubt that Doug Phillips could be guilty of all these things that T.W. alleges, but they need to be investigated properly and tried in a court of law. T.W., with his increasingly wild accusations and trial in the court of public opinion is muddying the waters of an official investigation, IMO. And neither T.W. nor Jen say that they have reported their "evidence" to the authorities. I agree with T.W. that there are definite cult-like aspects to BCA and VFI and Doug's leadership, but it is really hard to prosecute someone for being a cult leader exercising undue influence. It is better to go after them for criminal offenses.

Speaking of anonymity, T.W. Eston, is still anonymous. He claims to be a survivor of another "cult" church run by a pastor heavily influenced by Doug Phillips. Why doesn't he expose that Church and that abusive pastor too?

If you notice, the wilder T.W.'s claims get, the more suspicious and critical his readers are becoming. If he is proved wrong on one small aspect of all of this, people will probably want to toss real issues that he has brought up aside.

Final thought, wow the blatant anti-semitism of some commenters over at JensGems . . . :pink-shock:

[GodHatesFigs]

More wondering on Jen's blog if Doug was Jewish

Ironically, Doug is not reading the Old Testament in a Jewish manner but the way a Christian fundamentalist would.

Tw responds

These folks are blithely comparing DP's views/behavior to a boogie-man version of Islam and implying that he never converted from Judaism. In one sense, they have a point in that more hierarchical, literal, and restrictive a religion becomes, the more it becomes similar in dynamics to other hierarchical, literal, and restrictive groups, regardless of the group's stated values. In another way, it prevents them from having to look inward because clearly "no true Christian" would ever create an institutional or family culture like DP's.

[Flossie]

I have speculated in the past that I believe(IMHO) the QF/CP movement would progress to polygamy.

Can you just imagine Michelle Duggar's head exploding if Jim Bob brought home another wife? Where would the new wife sleep? How would Michelle react when the new wife became pregnant? If there weren't children involved, I'd pay to see that!

[Cleopatra7]

Nope. The commenter, Catherine, on JensGems says that Mrs. R is being scrubbed from the VF blog.

Look, I know I'm a cynic, and questioning the accuracy of the accusations over at JensGems annoys some people -- but T.W. Eston and Jen are contradicting themselves right, left and center. First they know something for a fact, then they don't. Example, is Hero still with Doug? They previously said categorically that she had broken off the relationship and had left BCA with her family in January. Now, according to T.W., she is holding hands with Doug in February. :roll:

Also, T.W. makes an accusation and then Jen says, "Oh we are not accusing DP of that!" Even some commenters are beginning to balk and question them in this latest post.

Look at the hearsay and heavy innuendo here: T.W. Eston writes:

So isn't he implying that Beall is at risk of being murdered? But ...

OK. :roll:

Way back on page 15 Taylormaid asked me:

Sorry, I didn't respond to this before, TaylorMaid.

Here's the thing, we are not talking about an HR-type harassment matter here where victims and witnesses need to be kept safe from repercussions anymore (Doug is out and defanged) so protection against whom and whose anonimity did you mean?

"Outing" and shaming the victim in the way T.W. has Hero/Cassandra in this latest post stinks. Likewise, Mrs. Robinson. Keeping his "sources" confidential sounds fine -- if he does indeed have sources and isn't just making stuff up and telling people what they want to hear. Again, keeping his sources safe from what and whom? T.W. himself says that the threat from Doug and his minions is over.

T.W. and his "sources" should be talking to the DA's Office, not posting all this stuff on the internet. That would help to keep them safe from Doug and Co. and ensure that facts are properly assessed and collected. And prosecuted if necessary.

Some of the accusations T.W. is making go well beyond harassment when it comes to criminal offenses. Clergy abuse (a crime in Texas) and having sex with a 17 year old member of his church in states where the age for consent is 18, rather than 17. Also, he has accused Doug of embezzlement, tax evasion and general financial mismanagement.

I don't doubt that Doug Phillips could be guilty of all these things that T.W. alleges, but they need to be investigated properly and tried in a court of law. T.W., with his increasingly wild accusations and trial in the court of public opinion is muddying the waters of an official investigation, IMO. And neither T.W. nor Jen say that they have reported their "evidence" to the authorities. I agree with T.W. that there are definite cult-like aspects to BCA and VFI and Doug's leadership, but it is really hard to prosecute someone for being a cult leader exercising undue influence. It is better to go after them for criminal offenses.

Speaking of anonymity, T.W. Eston, is still anonymous. He claims to be a survivor of another "cult" church run by a pastor heavily influenced by Doug Phillips. Why doesn't he expose that Church and that abusive pastor too?

If you notice, the wilder T.W.'s claims get, the more suspicious and critical his readers are becoming. If he is proved wrong on one small aspect of all of this, people will probably want to toss real issues that he has brought up aside.

Final thought, wow the blatant anti-semitism of some commenters over at JensGems . . . :pink-shock:

I think one of the posters (don't remember who) said that the authorities are looking into the situation. Obviously, I have no way of knowing if this is true or not, but let's hope that it is. It seems that the only ones who really read Jen's Gems are people who were directly involved in BCA or some other aspect of VF and us. I think its real purpose is as a place for the former to vent and gossip, so it shouldn't be surprising when a drama llama stampede occurs.

It's odd that they would mention Doug's "Talmudic thinking" because even the most charedi Jews would never dream of practicing polygamy. I've only heard of one super-fringe group in Israel that did polygamy, and even that was more of a David Koresh harem situation. From what I'm hearing, it seems like Christian patriarchal polygamists may be hiding in plain sight.

ETA: I found a Christian polygamist who states, point blank, that Doug Philips is a tool should have made Hero his second wife and we're all just heathen, godless haters for not letting such a godly man take on a young woman who shares his "vision":

christian-polygamy.com/content/doug-phillips-and-his-sin#comments

[debrand]

I think that TW is probably reporting any negative gossip from angry people as long as it is anti Doug and not verifying anything. Some of what he writes is probably true but I think that there is also a measure of speculation that is probably false.

All this information needs to be taken to the authorities and I hope that he and Jen are reporting it to them.

[mrs]

Can you just imagine Michelle Duggar's head exploding if Jim Bob brought home another wife? Where would the new wife sleep? How would Michelle react when the new wife became pregnant? If there weren't children involved, I'd pay to see that!

IIRC some families entered the QF movement because the wife had pushed their husband and family into the movement. Perhaps there are some wives in QF/CP pushing for their the family to become polygamous?

[Palimpsest]

I think one of the posters (don't remember who) said that the authorities are looking into the situation. Obviously, I have no way of knowing if this is true or not, but let's hope that it is. It seems that the only ones who really read Jen's Gems are people who were directly involved in BCA or some other aspect of VF and us. I think its real purpose is as a place for the former to vent and gossip, so it shouldn't be surprising when a drama llama stampede occurs.

It's odd that they would mention Doug's "Talmudic thinking" because even the most charedi Jews would never dream of practicing polygamy. I've only heard of one super-fringe group in Israel that did polygamy, and even that was more of a David Koresh harem situation. From what I'm hearing, it seems like Christian patriarchal polygamists may be hiding in plain sight.

ETA: I found a Christian polygamist who states, point blank, that Doug Philips is a tool should have made Hero his second wife and we're all just heathen, godless haters for not letting such a godly man take on a young woman who shares his "vision":

christian-polygamy.com/content/doug-phillips-and-his-sin#comments

To the bolded, that was not one of the posters it was Jen herself responding to our very own Marian the Librarian. T.W. and Jen keep dodging the question about reporting the allegations they are making. :)

Jen Says:

December 11, 2013 at 11:55 pm

Marian, it is Mr. Eston.

I believe that something is being done about this situation legally by those who are involved. We shall wait and see for now.

It is unclear to me how may people from BCA and elsewhere are reading JensGems. Certainly WomanforFreedom who is sounding off at Spiritual Sounding Board is reading. She doesn't agree with Eston over Beall. I find her inside knowledge quite suspicious too.

Perhaps Doug will take a few years off to lick his wounds and then officially start promoting polygamy! Vision Forum Sister Wives version. The Christian Polygamists will accept him. :P

[WonderingInWA]

If The Book of Mormon is such a successful Broadway musical, certainly there's a successful one waiting to be written about the Tool's downfall. Dougie should write it himself (in all the spare time he will have now). He's got the knowledge, theatrics, costuming, and musical enthusiasm.

Any thoughts on what he should call it? Perhaps nothing more than "The Tool".

[Marian the Librarian]

Nope. The commenter, Catherine, on JensGems says that Mrs. R is being scrubbed from the VF blog.

Look, I know I'm a cynic, and questioning the accuracy of the accusations over at JensGems annoys some people -- but T.W. Eston and Jen are contradicting themselves right, left and center. First they know something for a fact, then they don't. Example, is Hero still with Doug? They previously said categorically that she had broken off the relationship and had left BCA with her family in January. Now, according to T.W., she is holding hands with Doug in February. And according to Jen she is hearing reports that they are still in a relationship.:roll:

Also, T.W. makes an accusation and then Jen says, "Oh we are not accusing DP of that!" Even some commenters are beginning to balk and question them in this latest post.

Look at the hearsay and heavy innuendo here: T.W. Eston writes:

So isn't he implying that Beall is at risk of being murdered? But ...

OK. :roll:

Way back on page 15 Taylormaid asked me:

Sorry, I didn't respond to this before, TaylorMaid.

Here's the thing, we are not talking about an HR-type harassment matter here where victims and witnesses need to be kept safe from repercussions anymore (Doug is out and defanged) so protection against whom and whose anonimity did you mean?

"Outing" and shaming the victim in the way T.W. has Hero/Cassandra in this latest post stinks. Likewise, Mrs. Robinson. Keeping his "sources" confidential sounds fine -- if he does indeed have sources and isn't just making stuff up and telling people what they want to hear. Again, keeping his sources safe from what and whom? T.W. himself says that the threat from Doug and his minions is over.

T.W. and his "sources" should be talking to the DA's Office, not posting all this stuff on the internet. That would help to keep them safe from Doug and Co. and ensure that facts are properly assessed and collected. And prosecuted if necessary.

Some of the accusations T.W. is making go well beyond harassment when it comes to criminal offenses. Clergy abuse (a crime in Texas) and having sex with a 17 year old member of his church in states where the age for consent is 18, rather than 17. Also, he has accused Doug of embezzlement, tax evasion and general financial mismanagement.

I don't doubt that Doug Phillips could be guilty of all these things that T.W. alleges, but they need to be investigated properly and tried in a court of law. T.W., with his increasingly wild accusations and trial in the court of public opinion is muddying the waters of an official investigation, IMO. And neither T.W. nor Jen say that they have reported their "evidence" to the authorities. I agree with T.W. that there are definite cult-like aspects to BCA and VFI and Doug's leadership, but it is really hard to prosecute someone for being a cult leader exercising undue influence. It is better to go after them for criminal offenses.

Speaking of anonymity, T.W. Eston, is still anonymous. He claims to be a survivor of another "cult" church run by a pastor heavily influenced by Doug Phillips. Why doesn't he expose that Church and that abusive pastor too?

If you notice, the wilder T.W.'s claims get, the more suspicious and critical his readers are becoming. If he is proved wrong on one small aspect of all of this, people will probably want to toss real issues that he has brought up aside.

Final thought, wow the blatant anti-semitism of some commenters over at JensGems . . . :pink-shock:

Palimpsest, THANK you - especially to the bolded. This is the point I've been trying to hammer home over on Jen's Gems. Enough with the drama - bring in the law.

[thoughtful]

If The Book of Mormon is such a successful Broadway musical, certainly there's a successful one waiting to be written about the Tool's downfall. Dougie should write it himself (in all the spare time he will have now). He's got the knowledge, theatrics, costuming, and musical enthusiasm.

Any thoughts on what he should call it? Perhaps nothing more than "The Tool".

Just TOOL!

Y'know, like Oliver! and Mame and Hair.

Or perhaps, TOOL! The Musical.

[debrand]

Just TOOL!

Y'know, like Oliver! and Mame and Hair.

Or perhaps, TOOL! The Musical.

I can't wait for the duet between Peter Bradrick and Doug Phillips.

We have to work anaconda in there somewhere.

[WonderingInWA]

I can't wait for the duet between Peter Bradrick and Doug Phillips.

We have to work anaconda in there somewhere.

And multiple crescendos. CRESCENDO!!!!!!!!eleventy!!!!!

[mrs]

Any opinions if the ring Hero is wearing in the picture at JensGems(ensgems.wordpress.com/2013/12/11/doug-phillips-affair-or-criminal-clergy-sexual-abuse/#comments) is actually an engagement ring?

[hoipolloi]

Also, over at Jen's Gems, it's apparently it's OK to mention Jim Zes by name but not Jim Leininger.

Here's Eston today, commenting on Jim Zes:

T.W. Eston Says:

December 12, 2013 at 10:19 am

Jennifer Grady has been an A-lister for a number of years. She made it on the list even prior to moving to San Antonio, as a member of Jim Zes’ church [reformationchristian.com/] in Saint Louis. Jim Zes has been a long time Vision Forum Ministries board member [visionforumministries.org/home/about/the_board_of_vision_forum_mini.aspx]. Jennifer Grady is very well connected, but other than Jim Zes I may not be dropping any other names of her connections. At this point they’re all probably running for cover.

Here's Eston a few days ago, admonishing a commenter about using Leininger's name:

T.W. Eston Says:

December 3, 2013 at 6:37 pm

FEAST is Family Educators Alliance of South Texas.

Jim L. is a permissible name here. His last name is blocked in our comment filter because we won’t permit it to appear here out of respect for him, just as the name of the young lady that Doug Phillips sexually abused won’t be permitted here out of respect for her. I would request that you don’t speculate about Jim L. here or elsewhere. He, as many others, are now suffering the embarrassment of their prior affiliation with Doug Phillips. Some may deserve to get called out for it, perhaps a few former interns, for example. However, most do not, and Jim L. is one of those who do not.

[Brigit Branwyn]

I read somewhere that DP is 5'4" tall. Maybe his controlling behavior is related to that? I have heard that shorter men sometimes have self image issues.

[Artemis]

The more I hear from Jen and T. W. Eston, the less I a) believe them and b) appreciate their self righteousness.

Doug is a tool, but those two are pure poison. Especially Eston, who doesn't even have the guts to use his real name.

[artschooldropout]

And multiple crescendos. CRESCENDO!!!!!!!!eleventy!!!!!

Yes!

[ILoveJellybeans]

I read somewhere that DP is 5'4" tall. Maybe his controlling behavior is related to that? I have heard that shorter men sometimes have self image issues.

Wow, he is really tiny. I am short, but nearly as tall as Doug.

[debrand]

Wow, he is really tiny. I am short, but nearly as tall as Doug.[/quote

You'll have to play him in the musical Jelly Bean.