The Continuing Fall of VF and Doug Phillips is a tool-Part 4

[Buzzard]

Hero is a poorly educated woman of 30. She has no references from her 10+ years work as a nanny for the Phillips family. She has been shamed within her former community. Her father may blame her for Doug's advances. If Daddy moves them to a new Fundie 'Church" poor Hero is still tainted and shamed by accusations, even if she is still technically a virgin, and is ABSOLUTELY a victim in all of this. If her family doesn't get her to mainstream society and professional counselling soon she is still completely screwed.

I truly hope that Hero can recover and gets good and professional counselling in human terms and outside the faux-Christian-values environment that she has inhabited for so long.

Her situation just breaks my heart. And Jen and TW are making it even worse. IMO.

I simply cannot imagine being in her position.

A man who is supposed to be her role model and protector takes advantage, because of this the family must walk away from their lives.

She has no job, no real education, no way of escape. We dont know if this "scandal" has impacted her father's employment (or do we and I missed it?), or even forced them to move. How do you start over at 30? She has nowhere to run, likely no ability to trust those who claim authority, and no way to support herself. Its not like she can get on a bus and set down roots where no one knows her... I really hope she's getting some real SECULAR counseling and that her family is being supportive. Whether she claims she was ok with it or not, the power dynamic negates too much.

[RosyDaisy]

I don't believe anything Eston says without corroboration from a reliable source. :snooty:

I don't believe a single word on Jen's Gems, including what went down with her excommunication from BCA. She and T.W. have not provided any sources or documentation for their info. They are gossipers who have been pulling theories out of their asses ever since the story broke. I'm not even sure Hero is a victim in all of this. She very well could have entered into a relationship with Doug the Crazy Ass Tool willingly and not coerced. No proof has been presented to prove either. And people with an ax to grind aren't reliable sources of info.

[apple1]

... She very well could have entered into a relationship with Doug the Crazy Ass Tool willingly and not coerced...

You forget that there is more to consent than lack of physical coercion.

Like age difference (hence, the definition of "statutory rape"), power differential, spiritual abuse, socioeconomic differential, subservience of girls in the culture... this list could go on and on.

It doesn't take Jen or TW to see these things.

[nelliebelle1197]

You forget that there is more to consent than lack of physical coercion.

Like age difference (hence, the definition of "statutory rape"), power differential, spiritual abuse, socioeconomic differential, subservience of girls in the culture... this list could go on and on.

It doesn't take Jen or TW to see these things.

My issue with making the nanny a victim is a worry that we are degrading her even more by denying her agency. Are we doing the same thing to her that VF and dominionism do to women by asserting that a woman in her twenties isn't capable of choice and decision? She had elevated status at church and at VFM through her connection (not necessarily affair) with the Phillips. She might have enjoyed the perks of that status and wanted more. She may have genuinely loved Tool. I don't know. I don't think she is a villain at all and may well be a victim. I just am uncomfortable with the idea that we are taking the power away from this woman with our assumptions that she was not able to consent in her twenties. That seems paternalistic as well.

Regardless, she is a victim of the religion her father gave her no choice but to practice. And isn't that falling like a house of cards.

[MamaJunebug]

TOTAL change of direction here (we Junebugs are a distractable lot): Would someone please refresh my memory as to the blog that includes info from the Phillips' neighbor? And the neighbor's handle, as well. I'm purposing to read up on the family's (mis)behavior on the old home sod.

Many TIA.

Now to Hero: Victim or .... Hero.

We know next to nothing about any of these people, past their government names. And even those can be "reputed." A person (male or female) who was subsumed into the Belly Of The VF Borg as a mid-adolescent, doubtlessly saw the angry side of the Leader many times. And saw it years before poor Petey Bradrick was treated to it. Such a person also saw (prepare the brain bleach) Doug in his day-old BVDs, fat Doug without any stiff costume bodice to camouflage the creeping pounds. Such a person will develop a far different view of things than will someone of the same age who only attended BCA and was home-trained along its traditions. That person will certainly develop a different life outlook than will someone of the same age whose parents educated [sic] and trained them VF-style in Nowhere, ND, or similar.

Moreover, significant birthdays stand out across cultures; if for no other reason than that one has to write a different numeral at the beginning of her/his age. Turning 30 has significance that can't be denied for human females: things start to change slightly but decidedly wrt procreation. No judgment or moral, just fact.

Does a female in Hero's suspected situation notice that she's 30, unwed and childless? Oh, yeah. Does such a suspected person have a full experience of the cult leader - waaaay beyond the glib, snappy historic dresser? You bet. Such a person has seen the (once-)esteemed leader in his day-old BVDS. Has seen the spreading middle when there's no boned historic jacket to camouflage it.

Such a person may slowly develop from starry-eyed pawn to clear-eyed player. So: victim or hero? Yes.

Where has the family of origin landed at this point, spiritually? That's what I'd like to know. Has it been a frying-pan-to-fire move to another patriarchal scumbag's home church? Or have friends/family on the outside provided support that has led them to a respected denomination with clergy accountability? Or have they even swerved toward some degree of humanism? I'm talking anything from a formal, organized ethical society in the Adler tradition to a convivial, informal semi-regular gathering of folks who talk about life, but without any nod to (or need for) religion, as such. Or have they left any type of religion/ethical system in their steps to regroup and rebuild?

Just what I wonder, these days. :shifty:

ETA: Also, will they pursue legal options, if any are open to them?

[starfish]

Jem doesn't just want to be back in the cult, she wants to sit on Doug the tool's right hand side as his high priestess. Her secret dream is to hand out

punishments to those who are not ahering to Doug's law closely enough. She'd be excomminicating folks right and left for not turning in their

homemaking notebooks, vaccinating their children, having kids act up in church, etc. THAT's what she wants.

[Talitha Cumi]

TOTAL change of direction here (we Junebugs are a distractable lot): Would someone please refresh my memory as to the blog that includes info from the Phillips' neighbor? And the neighbor's handle, as well. I'm purposing to read up on the family's (mis)behavior on the old home sod.

Many TIA.

It's .spiritualsoundingboard.com (breaking link because I don't know if it's okay to link it), and the commenter is WomanForFreedom.

[Cleopatra7]

When you type in Hero's real name into Google, you get options like "Hero affair," "Hero affair with doug phillips," "Hero vision forum." Her name is linked with this situation, whether she likes it or not. I hope she can find some way to move forward. :cry:

I know that Hero is chronically 30, but I think her emotional age must be much lower. Even if she has seen the truth behind the tool's corsets, I don't think it will make that much of a difference. Doug Phillips is a tool was the closest thing to an idol in her world, even if he physically pales in comparison to a Brad Pitt type character. If he could hide his true intentions with god talk, empty promises, and Bible verses, Hero could be convinced to go along with anything. I'm not denying her autonomy, but this system is built to keep women in a state where they never get an opportunity to be autonomous in the first place. She is supposed to always be under the authority of a man, whether a brother, a father, or a husband, who will make all the decisions for her. She has no say in when or with whom she has sex or how many children she will have. Women are told that they are illogical, easily deceived, and not capable of making informed decisions. Given this, Hero probably thought that Doug Phillips is a tool, as the ultimate headship, was protecting her and helping her, even while he was exploiting her.

[MamaJunebug]

Talitha Cumi, thank you!

Cleo, I take your point but I'm optimistic (another trait/failing of the Junebug genus). ALL family members have lost their employ(unrecompensed servitude) in the Phillips Estate. What are the chances that father and brother have found another cult leader to employ them in the big bad world? In this economy, I'd say the chances are less than the guys finding work for a secular employer. (How is the SA economy? Guessing that pops is bilingual, that has to be something of a leg up in his search for a job.)

Hero herself may wind up employable; even if she doesn't have a letter of reference from Be-all or End-all, she has a good appearance, seems to present herself well, is at this point not overly awed at working in a manse - and should be able to compete for decent nanny positions. (I speak from some second-hand experience.)

Point I'm getting to: yeah, she may still be into the SAHD mishigas but she may well have adopted a much more realistic and pragmatic view of how she's going to have to be, to keep a roof over her and her family's head and food on the table.

But again, hopeful, that's me. (PS: Doesn't Be-all and End-all have a whole new meaning, nowadays? Ha. haha.)

[Queen Of Hearts]

I know this opinion will get me flamed by some here, but I just have to say it. I just don't see "Hero" as quite the innocent victim that so many do. Yes, The Tool surely used some of his power to get what he wanted. And yes, she was younger when the affair began and likely a little impressionable (though why anyone would be impressed by a little troll-looking creature like The Tool is beyond me). However, Hero was also raised in a very religious environment and clearly knew adultery was wrong in their culture. In addition, she worked closely with Beall and the kids - she knew the very people her relationship would be hurting. She faced the true victims (Beall and the kids) likely every day and kept on engaging in the immoral behavior. In addition, the affair went on for 12 years. Even if she made some bad mistakes as a young adult at 17 or 18, she had many years to realize what was happening was wrong and stop the behavior in any way possible. She didn't. She happily tagged along with the Tool on trips and smiled for the camera on cue. Do I feel sorry for her? Absolutely! Do I think she was raised in a shitty culture. Yepper! But do I think she is a victim. Not entirely.

As for Jen and Eston. I think Jen is bitter. Very bitter. And I think both she and Eston love the attention they are getting. Does anyone besides me question if Jen and Eston might even be the same person? That said, I am loving their tabloid journalism in this situation because the info they are publishing will ensure The Tool is never again trusted in a religious roll. Some good will come from that, if nothing else. Normally I do not advocate such generic attacks in journalism, but with The Tool I support it! And if a few of The Tool's cronies get brought down a few pegs in the process, so be it.

[Talitha Cumi]

Talitha Cumi, thank you!

Cleo, I take your point but I'm optimistic (another trait/failing of the Junebug genus). ALL family members have lost their employ(unrecompensed servitude) in the Phillips Estate. What are the chances that father and brother have found another cult leader to employ them in the big bad world? In this economy, I'd say the chances are less than the guys finding work for a secular employer. (How is the SA economy? Guessing that pops is bilingual, that has to be something of a leg up in his search for a job.)

Hero herself may wind up employable; even if she doesn't have a letter of reference from Be-all or End-all, she has a good appearance, seems to present herself well, is at this point not overly awed at working in a manse - and should be able to compete for decent nanny positions. (I speak from some second-hand experience.)

Point I'm getting to: yeah, she may still be into the SAHD mishigas but she may well have adopted a much more realistic and pragmatic view of how she's going to have to be, to keep a roof over her and her family's head and food on the table.

But again, hopeful, that's me. (PS: Doesn't Be-all and End-all have a whole new meaning, nowadays? Ha. haha.)

You're quite welcome!

One thing that kills me is Hero's appearance at the end of the VF "Thank You Michelle" video. She talks about women who "really, really want" children. After spending her youth raising the Tool's kids, she has very little opportunity to have her own. Of course women over 30 can and do have children, but how likely is she to meet someone and get married at this point? Poor Hero.

[tropaka]

One thing that kills me is Hero's appearance at the end of the VF "Thank You Michelle" video. She talks about women who "really, really want" children. After spending her youth raising the Tool's kids, she has very little opportunity to have her own. Of course women over 30 can and do have children, but how likely is she to meet someone and get married at this point? Poor Hero.

Um, the woman is quite good looking and if she's out of the cult, then I'd say her chances are quite good. In the real world, 30 is young.

[EmmieJ]

Um, the woman is quite good looking and if she's out of the cult, then I'd say her chances are quite good. In the real world, 30 is young.

Just echoing this sentiment. I had my first at age 36. A friend had her first at age 45. A young 30-year old woman, if she is in good health, has a good number of child-bearing years left.

[Closed Womb]

Um, the woman is quite good looking and if she's out of the cult, then I'd say her chances are quite good. In the real world, 30 is young.

Agreed. In mainstream Christianity and Fundie Light churches (not to mention "the world") 30 is plenty young enough to get married and have a child; no one would raise an eyebrow at being unmarried at her age.

FWIW, the one time my heart really, really broke for "Hero" is when her voice breaks a little in this video. I really believe she truly thinks that all women really, really want children and I think she is/was probably wondering why God has forsaken her in this department.

[Talitha Cumi]

Um, the woman is quite good looking and if she's out of the cult, then I'd say her chances are quite good. In the real world, 30 is young.

I'm just talking about in terms of getting her life back on track, and whether she stays in fundie Christianity or not. If she goes fundie-light I could see it, as long as her future husband doesn't hold this over her head a la Mark Driscoll.

If she goes secular, though, she'll have no trouble whatsoever. Come to the light side, Hero! We have cookies and acceptance and love!

[WonderingInWA]

I'm just talking about in terms of getting her life back on track, and whether she stays in fundie Christianity or not. If she goes fundie-light I could see it, as long as her future husband doesn't hold this over her head a la Mark Driscoll.

If she goes secular, though, she'll have no trouble whatsoever. Come to the light side, Hero! We have cookies and acceptance and love!

And wine. Sometimes we have wine.

[Closed Womb]

I know this opinion will get me flamed by some here, but I just have to say it. I just don't see "Hero" as quite the innocent victim that so many do. Yes, The Tool surely used some of his power to get what he wanted. And yes, she was younger when the affair began and likely a little impressionable (though why anyone would be impressed by a little troll-looking creature like The Tool is beyond me). However, Hero was also raised in a very religious environment and clearly knew adultery was wrong in their culture. In addition, she worked closely with Beall and the kids - she knew the very people her relationship would be hurting. She faced the true victims (Beall and the kids) likely every day and kept on engaging in the immoral behavior. In addition, the affair went on for 12 years. Even if she made some bad mistakes as a young adult at 17 or 18, she had many years to realize what was happening was wrong and stop the behavior in any way possible. She didn't. She happily tagged along with the Tool on trips and smiled for the camera on cue. Do I feel sorry for her? Absolutely! Do I think she was raised in a shitty culture. Yepper! But do I think she is a victim. Not entirely.

As for Jen and Eston. I think Jen is bitter. Very bitter. And I think both she and Eston love the attention they are getting. Does anyone besides me question if Jen and Eston might even be the same person? That said, I am loving their tabloid journalism in this situation because the info they are publishing will ensure The Tool is never again trusted in a religious roll. Some good will come from that, if nothing else. Normally I do not advocate such generic attacks in journalism, but with The Tool I support it! And if a few of The Tool's cronies get brought down a few pegs in the process, so be it.

Your opinion won't get flamed by the likes of me; I appreciate you saying it. I was involved in some Fundie light type churches in my day (and one Bible Baptist Church [what a nightmare]. Although I never belonged to the Crazy Ass, Woman Hatin' Baptist one, I attended and watched the theater of the living, if you will.) In all of them, single women, young and "old", dreamed of being the "First Lady" of the church (or a church.) If they really toe the line, it is the one place where they can get power/recognition. I'm not saying all of the women wanted that, but many (I'd even say most) did.

IF "Hero" really is the woman (or a woman) in question here, I think there is a good chance she was a willing participant. And as a former 18 year old true believer, Fundie Light church member, I have a huge issue with the assumption that she knew not her own mind and/or had not her own will at that age in her circumstance(s).

I think it's entirely possible that Doug is an abuser and it went down the way that some here have suggested. I also think it's entirely possible that she was a knowing, willing participant in the entire affair. IF she was even involved with Doug Phillips at all. I mean, her family could have left the church because they found out what Sippy Cup found out and they were not comfortable with "Hero" being around such a tool.

I also take the unpopular stance of appreciating the info from Jen. I'd love info from other people, of course, but I mostly want Doug's to not easily be able to come back from this (ie, return to fleecing folks.) That said, she pissed me off in one way: if Jen could not explain why The Cougar (sorry, forgot what her pseudonym became) was important to the story, naming and shaming was first class asshattery.

I don't know if "Hero" is the woman in question. I don't know if she was a victim or a beneficiary. I don't know if Jen is on the up and up. All I know for sure is that Doug Phillips is a Tool.

[Cleopatra7]

I think for me, the issue is trying to figure out how the rhetoric about submissive VF women plays out in the real world. Many of the big name VF women appear to have made independent careers out of telling other women how to be submissive. Michelle Duggar certainly comes to mind here, but I think that she simply took her pre-conversion queen bee cheerleader persona and uses it in a different forum. I'm less sure about how the mental processes of a young woman who has been entirely raised in patriarchy would work. To me, raising a girl in such extreme patriarchy is like making a bonsai tree, where you stunt the tree's growth to make something pretty, but susceptible to the elements or outside invasions. I don't think Hero or Doug Phillips is a tool is going to come out with some tell all that would provide more details to the story, so we may never know the truth.

[Anise]

I don't think anyone here is saying she had no agency, but please let's be realistic about her choices. First of all, this is a community where women's word does not account for as much as men's word. And second of all, any failings of men are blamed for women. If she spoke up, she would face either denial or being told she is the problem.

[nelliebelle1197]

I don't think anyone here is saying she had no agency, but please let's be realistic about her choices. First of all, this is a community where women's word does not account for as much as men's word. And second of all, any failings of men are blamed for women. If she spoke up, she would face either denial or being told she is the problem.

I just find the automatic labeling of victimhood not that different than what Douggie and his friends do. Just because her choices seem limited to us in that world (as best we know; it seems the "elites" had a very different set of rules) does not mean she did not develop a mind of her own. Somehow, she may have actually, gulp, found the tool attractive.... :ew:

[hoipolloi]

Oh my goodness, it's time to feed the bots:

Doug Phillips Is A Tool

Doug Phillips Is A Tool

Doug Phillips Is A Tool

Doug Phillips Is A Tool

Doug Phillips Is A Tool

And to finish up:

Doug Phillips Is A Tool James Leninger Vision Forum Forbes

[Mary C Doates]

Oh my goodness, it's time to feed the bots:

Doug Phillips Is A Tool

Doug Phillips Is A Tool

Doug Phillips Is A Tool

Doug Phillips Is A Tool

Doug Phillips Is A Tool

And to finish up:

Doug Phillips Is A Tool James Leninger Vision Forum Forbes

75% off on whatever dreck remains at Vision Forum (coupon code 75OFF if you really, really want some souvenir of the Doug Phillips--who is a tool--era). I'm waiting for them to offer to pay me to take some stuff off their hands. It doesn't look as though VF Inc is going to survive past this coming weekend.

Oh, and I would be remiss if I failed to mention yet again that Doug Phillips is a tool.

[julie paradox]

Will you all shun me if I confess I find the Tool quite attractive?

If I'd just seen a bunch of pictures - though possibly not including ones where a whole load of men stand at the front of church, or wave confederate flags - I'd have really liked the look of him.

[marmalade]

Well, they are firing all of their employees as of 12/31, so there will be no warehouse staff to clear what's left of the inventory. I imagine they will have to stop shipping and start cleaning after Christmas, so we have maybe one week left to see how low they will go.

I'm with you, Mary. I'm waiting for them to pay me before I "buy" anything from VF. Better yet, look for stuff from disgruntled VF members on Amazon or Ebay.

[Mary C Doates]

Well, they are firing all of their employees as of 12/31, so there will be no warehouse staff to clear what's left of the inventory. I imagine they will have to stop shipping and start cleaning after Christmas, so we have maybe one week left to see how low they will go.

I'm with you, Mary. I'm waiting for them to pay me before I "buy" anything from VF. Better yet, look for stuff from disgruntled VF members on Amazon or Ebay.

The emails from VF make it sound as though they're toast as of 12/20. A pity for the employees who are being let go (you know they were paid bupkis in the first place), but no pity whatsoever for Doug Phillips, who is a tool.

ETA: There is pretty much nothing left in the catalogue--only 36 items listed (including Doug Phillips who is a tool and Beall talking about family matters. Hope the paucity of merchandise is because vendors withdrew their products, and not because VF loyalists actually bought all the items listed in the original catalogue.

Doug Phillips is a tool.