The Continuing Fall of VF and Doug Phillips is a tool-Part 4

[ThisOlGirl]

Will you all shun me if I confess I find the Tool quite attractive?

If I'd just seen a bunch of pictures - though possibly not including ones where a whole load of men stand at the front of church, or wave confederate flags - I'd have really liked the look of him.

I won't shun you, I'll just pass you this bottle of tequila so we can attempt to drink away our attraction to Dougie (and the shame that goes with that) together.

Looks wise, Dougie is right up my alley, but what I know about him kills that. Even if he weren't a total tool, he would've lost me at that whole"MOAR CELLOS!!!" thing.

[Hane]

I am *so* tempted to buy one of the dolls and make her over as Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, Ti-Grace Atkinson, Angela Davis, or Gloria Steinem.

[gustava]

I'm confused...as usual. When did it seem to become apparent that the affair between Doug is a Tool and Hero lasted 12 years? I though it was 6.

Obviously, I'm 6 years behind.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I just want to add, one more time.

Doug Phillips is a tool.

Doug Phillips is a tool.

[twin2]

Popping in to do my share:

Doug Phillips is a Tool!

[shrewlu]

I won't shun you, I'll just pass you this bottle of tequila so we can attempt to drink away our attraction to Dougie (and the shame that goes with that) together.

Looks wise, Dougie is right up my alley, but what I know about him kills that. Even if he weren't a total tool, he would've lost me at that whole"MOAR CELLOS!!!" thing.

Pass the tequila this way because I find him oddly attractive as well. Physically, he hits several of my ticky buttons and almost every time I see a pic of him, there is a brief moment of "heyyyyyyy." Then I remember who he is and what he believes and the attraction is gone.

[WonderingInWA]

Could somebody please pass the brain bleach? Dougie had the potential of being cute to me at one time in my life, but after seeing him with that wide stance at one of the Brown weddings (was it David's or Blaire's, I can't remember), it was all over.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Doug Phillips, who is a tool, has an attractive face. I am quite certain that this was one of the reasons he was able to attain such a high level of toolishness before he fell from grace. (Pun intended).

Let's face facts, when one's goal is stand in front of a large group of people and sway them to your will, being easy to look at is a huge tool. Like Doug Phillips, who is in fact, a tool.

[Dysfundamental]

Patriarchy Ken doll good looks---plastic and hollow.

[Anise]

Attraction has nothing to do with agency, and I am sure Doug, like most cult leaders, can be quite charismatic and charming.

I think it can cross the line into rape culture-y: "she was asking for it- she was attracted, interested, flirting." No, he probably didn't use physical force, but emotional and spiritual abuse? Almost certainly.

[nausicaa]

I'm confused...as usual. When did it seem to become apparent that the affair between Doug is a Tool and Hero lasted 12 years? I though it was 6.

Obviously, I'm 6 years behind.

I've been confused about the numbers in relation to everything too. I'm trying to follow the threads as best I can, but I may have missed something along the way.

Here's what I have:

The article waxing rhapsodic about Hero's "graduation" from home school is dated 2003. So presumably she was 17-18 then. Making her 27-28 now, not thirty.

Also, the original duration of what I can best term for now Doug's "inappropriate activities" was thought to be one to two years. Then it was corrected to six. That would mean Hero was 21 at the youngest at the beginning of Dougie's shenanigans.

While I realize that patriarchal culture certainly complicates Hero's exact level of culpability, I'm confused when people mention contacting the authorities, or fault Jen for not doing so. A 21 year old in every state as well as Canada is a consenting adult and one can't be charged for any crime in engaging in sexual behavior with her.

ETA: Though obviously 12 years would change things, making Hero under 17 (the age of consent in Texas) at the beginning. I just don't know where the 12 year number came from. Is that the length of time she served as the nanny?

[MamaJunebug]

Had some free time so google'd Hero's name and this was the 5th or 6th hit - it's a response on a 2007 jensgems post by "Natasha," who I suppose is N. Epstein. Initially I posted this to indicate there were other nannies, when in fact I re-read it and the operative word is *were.* By the time this was written, there were only two individuals nannying for the Phillips, and we know who one of them was. (The other was her sibling.)

But I'm leaving part of N. Epstein's reply in, because while this has been discussed before, it shows again that Doug Phillips Is A Tool basically enjoyed slave labor at VFI & VFM

("Natasha" replies)

I can address the collaboration of unpaid houservants. One of them happened to be my best friend, X . And her mother, and her brother. And yes, she and her brother Y were taken on trips with Doug all the time to “pay†them for their services. Only thing was, she and Y ended up taking care of their kids throughout the entire trip as well. W, Mr. W's daughter, also use to be a nanny for the Phillips. And then there are the A ladies, and the B ladies, who all “volunteer†and “work†at Vision Forum in the wharehouse, and at the conferences, but they are still under their husbands and father’s authority because they work there too! In fact, the entire A and B families work there, yet they barely scrape by each month. Funny, you think perhaps Doug could pay the fathers just a tad more since he has the whole families working for him, but no, only the father’s and husband’s get paid for the work they do, not the rest of the family.

[debrand]

I've been confused about the numbers in relation to everything too. I'm trying to follow the threads as best I can, but I may have missed something along the way.

Here's what I have:

The article waxing rhapsodic about Hero's "graduation" from home school is dated 2003. So presumably she was 17-18 then. Making her 27-28 now, not thirty.

Also, the original duration of what I can best term for now Doug's "inappropriate activities" was thought to be one to two years. Then it was corrected to six. That would mean Hero was 21 at the youngest at the beginning of Dougie's shenanigans.

While I realize that patriarchal culture certainly complicates Hero's exact level of culpability, I'm confused when people mention contacting the authorities, or fault Jen for not doing so. A 21 year old in every state as well as Canada is a consenting adult and one can't be charged for any crime in engaging in sexual behavior with her.

ETA: Though obviously 12 years would change things, making Hero under 17 (the age of consent in Texas) at the beginning. I just don't know where the 12 year number came from. Is that the length of time she served as the nanny?

I am confused about her age when the affair happened also. Part of the distrust might come from the fact that Christian Reconstructionists believe that these type of problems can be solved by a church hierarchy and not by the legal authorities. Jen would probably catch a little less flak if she could say how old she believes that the nanny was during the affair. There seems to be some indication that Doug's problems aren't just in having an affair but involve some financial misdealings as well. I doubt that Scott Brown and the other men would have acted to remove Doug if he only had a very quiet affair with his children's nanny. I think that people are worried that Jen might not realize that some of the gossip should be passed on to authorities even if it isn't salacious and sexual in nature.

Didn't the reference to 12 years come from someone on Jen's site? We also have to keep in mind that no one knows for certain if the nanny was Doug's lover. It might well have been with a different person/people that he had an affair.

There are some little tidbits from her site that I wish that she would give a bit more detail. What is up with the covenant, for example? Were people prejudiced against Doug because his dad converted to Christianity from Judaism? Are there some financial shenanigans? Do they really teach that women should be stoned? Would the church turn Doug over to the authorities if he has done anything illegal? Why was Doug trusted after he sued other Christians?

Questions that I would like to know just to amuse me but don't really have anything to do with the affair. How did the various members of the church feel about Doug's need to dress up? Does Boerne Church teach that slavery is allowed? How were the interns chosen? Did people feel that the church put a lot of emphasis on having good looking people in their photos? How do the church members feel about their children joining the military today? What was a Sunday service like? How long did people spend attending church and church services? Are people rethinking their dedication to Christian Reconstructionism now? Did any of the pastors condemn the racist parts of Rushdoony's teachings? Was Doug aware that our site had a LOL Doug section?

[bbfreethinker]

Had some free time so google'd Hero's name and this was the 5th or 6th hit - it's a response on a 2007 jensgems post by "Natasha," who I suppose is N. Epstein. Initially I posted this to indicate there were other nannies, when in fact I re-read it and the operative word is *were.* By the time this was written, there were only two individuals nannying for the Phillips, and we know who one of them was. (The other was her sibling.)

But I'm leaving part of N. Epstein's reply in, because while this has been discussed before, it shows again that Doug Phillips Is A Tool basically enjoyed slave labor at VFI & VFM

("Natasha" replies)

I can address the collaboration of unpaid houservants. One of them happened to be my best friend, X . And her mother, and her brother. And yes, she and her brother Y were taken on trips with Doug all the time to “pay†them for their services. Only thing was, she and Y ended up taking care of their kids throughout the entire trip as well. W, Mr. W's daughter, also use to be a nanny for the Phillips. And then there are the A ladies, and the B ladies, who all “volunteer†and “work†at Vision Forum in the wharehouse, and at the conferences, but they are still under their husbands and father’s authority because they work there too! In fact, the entire A and B families work there, yet they barely scrape by each month. Funny, you think perhaps Doug could pay the fathers just a tad more since he has the whole families working for him, but no, only the father’s and husband’s get paid for the work they do, not the rest of the family.

Pret-ty clever there, Doug Phillips Is A Tool. Work the whole family, but just pay the father. And just pay him for his work. Willing slaves, that's what they are/were. This whole situation astounds me, no matter how many years I've been observing it.

According to KimC at LiaS, some of her kids are still going to work at Vision Forum with her husband. I would love to hear her take on this whole situation.

[FloraDoraDolly]

A quick note about Hero's age... It seems to be rather common for Quiverfull kids to "graduate" from homeschool early, at an age when regular high school kids are in the 10th or 11th grade. I'm not saying this is the case with Hero, but I am throwing it out there as a possibility.

[kpmom]

Had some free time so google'd Hero's name and this was the 5th or 6th hit - it's a response on a 2007 jensgems post by "Natasha," who I suppose is N. Epstein. Initially I posted this to indicate there were other nannies, when in fact I re-read it and the operative word is *were.* By the time this was written, there were only two individuals nannying for the Phillips, and we know who one of them was. (The other was her sibling.)

But I'm leaving part of N. Epstein's reply in, because while this has been discussed before, it shows again that Doug Phillips Is A Tool basically enjoyed slave labor at VFI & VFM

("Natasha" replies)

I can address the collaboration of unpaid houservants. One of them happened to be my best friend, X . And her mother, and her brother. And yes, she and her brother Y were taken on trips with Doug all the time to “pay†them for their services. Only thing was, she and Y ended up taking care of their kids throughout the entire trip as well. W, Mr. W's daughter, also use to be a nanny for the Phillips. And then there are the A ladies, and the B ladies, who all “volunteer†and “work†at Vision Forum in the wharehouse, and at the conferences, but they are still under their husbands and father’s authority because they work there too! In fact, the entire A and B families work there, yet they barely scrape by each month. Funny, you think perhaps Doug could pay the fathers just a tad more since he has the whole families working for him, but no, only the father’s and husband’s get paid for the work they do, not the rest of the family.

[debrand]

A quick note about Hero's age... It seems to be rather common for Quiverfull kids to "graduate" from homeschool early, at an age when regular high school kids are in the 10th or 11th grade. I'm not saying this is the case with Hero, but I am throwing it out there as a possibility.

Do we know how old she is now or are we guessing what her age is?

Didn't the Duggar girls graduate at 16?

[karismanic]

I was also confused about Hero's age, so I did a little research. Texas birth records are public (through 1997) on FamilySearch.org.

I found what I believe to be Hero's birth record. It shows she was born in 1984 in Bexar County, Texas.

The record contains her full name, date of birth, and her parents' full names. I do not want to post that much detail here, but I am happy to provide it to mods, if needed, to prove the date.

(Mostly a lurker, so I'm unsure if I'm shaky territory...)

[lemonhead]

A quick note about Hero's age... It seems to be rather common for Quiverfull kids to "graduate" from homeschool early, at an age when regular high school kids are in the 10th or 11th grade. I'm not saying this is the case with Hero, but I am throwing it out there as a possibility.

True--we were not QF, just super-fundie, and I "graduated" homeschool at 16. Other kids in my church finished anywhere from ages 15 to 18. It happens.

[Elinor]

I was also confused about Hero's age, so I did a little research. Texas birth records are public (through 1997) on FamilySearch.org.

I found what I believe to be Hero's birth record. It shows she was born in 1984 in Bexar County, Texas.

The record contains her full name, date of birth, and her parents' full names. I do not want to post that much detail here, but I am happy to provide it to mods, if needed, to prove the date.

(Mostly a lurker, so I'm unsure if I'm shaky territory...)

I did the same search and I am 100% positive you found the right birth record. Hero is currently 29 years old. Her brother is 26. Their parents' names are mentioned here: issacharian.com/?page=daughters (I hope it's okay to post that).

[DomWackTroll]

Re. the bolded, am I reading this right that X's brother also worked as a nanny (a manny??) for Doug and Beall? That couldn't right could it?

[Arete]

I am confused about her age when the affair happened also. Part of the distrust might come from the fact that Christian Reconstructionists believe that these type of problems can be solved by a church hierarchy and not by the legal authorities. Jen would probably catch a little less flak if she could say how old she believes that the nanny was during the affair. There seems to be some indication that Doug's problems aren't just in having an affair but involve some financial misdealings as well. I doubt that Scott Brown and the other men would have acted to remove Doug if he only had a very quiet affair with his children's nanny. I think that people are worried that Jen might not realize that some of the gossip should be passed on to authorities even if it isn't salacious and sexual in nature.

Didn't the reference to 12 years come from someone on Jen's site? We also have to keep in mind that no one knows for certain if the nanny was Doug's lover. It might well have been with a different person/people that he had an affair.

There are some little tidbits from her site that I wish that she would give a bit more detail. What is up with the covenant, for example? Were people prejudiced against Doug because his dad converted to Christianity from Judaism? Are there some financial shenanigans? Do they really teach that women should be stoned? Would the church turn Doug over to the authorities if he has done anything illegal? Why was Doug trusted after he sued other Christians?

Questions that I would like to know just to amuse me but don't really have anything to do with the affair. How did the various members of the church feel about Doug's need to dress up? Does Boerne Church teach that slavery is allowed? How were the interns chosen? Did people feel that the church put a lot of emphasis on having good looking people in their photos? How do the church members feel about their children joining the military today? What was a Sunday service like? How long did people spend attending church and church services? How long did people spend attending church and church services? Did any of the pastors condemn the racist parts of Rushdoony's teachings? Was Doug aware that our site had a LOL Doug section?

Were people prejudiced against Doug because his dad converted to Christianity from Judaism?

They weren't while he was their Fearless Leader. Now that he has fallen the anti-Semitism is coming out. They are using the No True Scotsman fallacy. If Doug is corrupt, it is because he wasn't Christian in the first place. :roll:

Does Boerne Church teach that slavery is allowed?

They most certainly support "teachers" who do, and these people have videos out to justify American slavery.

Did people feel that the church put a lot of emphasis on having good looking people in their photos?

They will deny it, but it is pretty obvious the answer is YES. You never see any overweight or disabled people in that catalog, teenagers in the "awkward" stage, or the old and decrepit.

Did any of the pastors condemn the racist parts of Rushdoony's teachings?

There doesn't seem to be any evidence of that.

How long did people spend attending church and church services?

People could spend up to 8 hours at the church on a Sunday, between the actual service, fellowship, and the "providence" meal.

[MamaJunebug]

...One thing that kills me is Hero's appearance at the end of the VF "Thank You Michelle" video. She talks about women who "really, really want" children. After spending her youth raising the Tool's kids, she has very little opportunity to have her own. Of course women over 30 can and do have children, but how likely is she to meet someone and get married at this point? Poor Hero.

Mah dawg. I well remembered the "Thank You Michelle" video being so incredibly uncreative and boring that apparently I didn't watch it through to the end, the first time. So I did, tonight - and mah. dawg. If that woman was genuinely moved by the thought of not being able to have children (because of her situation), it was incredible that she held it together so well.

Whatever the truth of her emotional state was, the facts remain: Telegenic and appealing, in incredible amounts!

Her brief comments were worthy of every emotional appeal anybody from the VF/NCFIC/etc. crowd *ever* emoted. Blown away I am, yoda. One has to think that Doug saw a bonanza of epic potential in putting that one into a spokeswoman role someday. Submissive spokeswoman, of course, but, you get my drift.

Edited for clarity and not to snark on her, since I have NO way of knowing where her emotions lay during those minutes.

[Queen Of Hearts]

From the neck up, I will agree with some of you that The Tool has a somewhat attractive face. Especially in later years when he donned the beard. But the short body and wide stance and prancy movements to and fro (sometimes even in tights!) just scream TROLL to me. Or better yet, leprechaun. f I only saw his head I could see the attractiveness, but the rest just turns me off.

[ladyamylynn]

From the neck up, I will agree with some of you that The Tool has a somewhat attractive face. Especially in later years when he donned the beard. But the short body and wide stance and prancy movements to and fro (sometimes even in tights!) just scream TROLL to me. Or better yet, leprechaun. f I only saw his head I could see the attractiveness, but the rest just turns me off.

For me, it's when he's talking, and not just because of the repulsive bullshit coming out of his mouth. It's actually something about how his chin moves when he talks that makes his face look just bizarre.

edited for clarity.