We're Always Learning New Things with Ken Alexander: Part 2

[polecat]

She was not mentally ill. It appeared as mental illness. Not the same thing. She wouldn't control herself.

I don't remember using the word punish, but if I did it was a poor choice of words. Discipline yes. A husband disciplining his wife is probably one of the things we will never agree on. Feel free to input the words, installed boundaries.

You can choose to believe me or not. My own wife has said the same thing. I've given enough defense of myself.

I'm sorry, I know I said last post...but I thought SunnyAndrsn asked the key question so I answered it.

PPMD *IS* mental illness.

Also: The Yellow Wallpaper.

[formergothardite]

Did he leave already? That is what I get for having a life outside of the internet.

It perhaps would have been wise to mention that all of your actions were under the guidance of several doctors and therapists. CM, you brought up none of that in your original posts. You cannot fault us for not knowing what you did not say. If you had made it clear that all of your actions were done under the supervision of doctors people would not have assumed you just did this on your own.

No one hates you for your fundamental Christian beliefs. This is especially laughable since we have tons of Christians here. Some of them conservative, fundamental Christians who believe in wifely submission.

No one is going to not believe your words just because you are a man. We have male members here and most of us are very pro-man and show a lot of respect towards men. Respect does not mean, how ever, thinking that men are not capable of earning a position of leadership so it must be handed to them immediately because they have a penis. I actually believe it is very disrespectful to men to treat them like they are so delicate that they can't handle a woman standing up to them and giving them her opinion. If a man can only be nice to a woman if she does whatever he says, submits to whatever he wants, and never puts her foot down to stand up for herself then he isn't much of a man or a human, he is a selfish asshole.

on purpose, I heard there was some debate on some of the quotes I copied and pasted on Lori't blog earlier in the week. And if someone can prove there is a false one amongst them I will apolagize for misrepresenting someone).

The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.†— Sharon Stone

This was a joke on a David Letterman Late Night show. It doesn't represent how she actually feels. If you have watched the show you will know that guest say crazy outrageous things joking about.

To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.†-– Valerie Solanas

She said this, but you must realize that she was severely mentally ill. So these are not the words of a sane woman. Would you like it if I picked a mentally ill person who also claimed to be Christian and attributed their words to all Christians?

I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.†— Andrea Dworkin

This was spoken by a character in a fiction book. It would be like finding a horrible quote from a character in the Left Behind series(which I'm sure I could do) and attributing it as being said by the authors.

In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent.†— Catherine MacKinnon

This one is completely made up. She didn't say it in the least tiny bit.

All men are rapists and that’s all they are†— Marilyn French

Another line from a fiction book attributed as being said by the author instead of a character in a book.

“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.†– Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

She said this but she is a radical feminists. She is like the Westboro Baptist of feminists. How would you like it if I posted a WB quote and acted like it was mainstream Christianity?

The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.†— Sally Miller Gearhart

This is from a science fiction novel.

“Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.†– Catherine Comins

This needs to be read in the whole context. It was a Times article about defining rape and how men can walk away from an experience not feeling like they raped a woman and a woman can walk away feeling raped and what men can learn about treating women from hearing that they made a woman feel like she was raped.

Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release.†— Germaine Greer.

She is also a radical feminists and this is from a book where she says women should taste their menstrual blood. I could easily find a list of crazy Christians who said offensive things to start spreading around to "prove" how hateful Christians are, but that would be dishonest, wouldn't it?

[Cabinetman]

Okay, forgive me I'm not a computer guy and don't know how to copy and paste all your different names and questions you had so when I address the issues forgive me for not addressing it to you correctly.

Do we have our own blog? No at this time. My wife once told her story at Warrior Wives, very briefly, very sanitized under a psuedo-name. That is the best I can do.

Every single thing I mentioned in my post is mentioned originally, from being under a doctor and counselor's care to the car keys but you have to read not just the two or three posts but somewhere north of 500 or comments to get all the information. It was poorly communicated as I have said a few times.

I am not here to "change" you or tell you you are wrong. It's your life. I and my wife post in a few places. We will say what we think the Bible teaches on a subject and what we think is best but I'm not here to change your mind, except on this, I am not an abuser and my wife is not miserable. We are half hermits, so take this for what it is because we don't interact with too many people, but of the dozen couples we see regularly we have the most joy, trust and love shown in our marriage than any other marriage we have witnessed growing up, in our churches, or in the many people we meet for business or socially. I am not "bragging" but stating as a fact that how we are charachterized on FJ is completely inaccurate. That is all my post was about. I'm not here to turn you into me or my wife.

As to the feminist quotes, I see you were able to discredit about (totallly off the top of my head, yes I know this is truly a made up percentage because I did not count how many I pasted or how many you discredited...just ballparking) 10-20% of them. I will study what you said, but I am going to take you at your word and admit that those quotes were indeed mischarachterizations and for that I apolagize. They were printed widely in many places and I was gullible enough to fall for it.

[jerkit]

Cabinetman - Many posters asked Ken this numerous times but he would never answer? How exactly are you being mischaracterized via the direct quotes provided here? What is being said or implied that is not correct?

[Cabinetman]

There are no direct quotes of me, it's all "synopsis". Just in the last two days on two different subjects no one quoted me except Koala, and her point was I was not agreeing with Lori. Of the other four people, they did not even come close to communicating what the essence of what I was trying to say. In fact you have two different people, one saying I agree with Lori and another saying I don't...on the same subject. There were no direct quotes on that.

On our story, the only direct quotes used since I have been here since last night was one that was not about my wife, but the ailments many women experience but was credited as me talking about my wife and the other I have gone over several times and it in no way charachterized the whole of how "disciplined" by wife. You guys did the same thing to me that I did to those feminist quotes. It was not even close to the whole message, but a very small part. It's a complex story, with lots of timeline and you can quote one sentence or one paragraph but without the context it is not true/reliable.

Also, one thing I think it was Pam brought up, I have spoke dozens of times on how husbands can "be in rebellion". I know many men that are in the exact state.

[Mice]

No wonder you and Ken get along so well. Both of you have no clue how the Internet or forums work, use the word mischaracterization, and type way too many words and actually say jack shit at the end of it all.

And they make up crap all the time. Don't forget that.

[latraviata]

Okay, forgive me I'm not a computer guy and don't know how to copy and paste all your different names and questions you had so when I address the issues forgive me for not addressing it to you correctly.

Do we have our own blog? No at this time. My wife once told her story at Warrior Wives, very briefly, very sanitized under a psuedo-name. That is the best I can do.

Every single thing I mentioned in my post is mentioned originally, from being under a doctor and counselor's care to the car keys but you have to read not just the two or three posts but somewhere north of 500 or comments to get all the information. It was poorly communicated as I have said a few times.

I am not here to "change" you or tell you you are wrong. It's your life. I and my wife post in a few places. We will say what we think the Bible teaches on a subject and what we think is best but I'm not here to change your mind, except on this, I am not an abuser and my wife is not miserable. We are half hermits, so take this for what it is because we don't interact with too many people, but of the dozen couples we see regularly we have the most joy, trust and love shown in our marriage than any other marriage we have witnessed growing up, in our churches, or in the many people we meet for business or socially. I am not "bragging" but stating as a fact that how we are charachterized on FJ is completely inaccurate. That is all my post was about. I'm not here to turn you into me or my wife.

As to the feminist quotes, I see you were able to discredit about (totallly off the top of my head, yes I know this is truly a made up percentage because I did not count how many I pasted or how many you discredited...just ballparking) 10-20% of them. I will study what you said, but I am going to take you at your word and admit that those quotes were indeed mischarachterizations and for that I apolagize. They were printed widely in many places and I was gullible enough to fall for it.

Apparantly you are gullible to many things inter alia the bible. Just come up with some autonomous thoughts and ideas. Very refreshing, but then again you have to think for yourself :think: and that is not something your lot (fundies) is familiar with.

[salex]

She was not mentally ill. It appeared as mental illness. Not the same thing. She wouldn't control herself.

I don't remember using the word punish, but if I did it was a poor choice of words. Discipline yes. A husband disciplining his wife is probably one of the things we will never agree on. Feel free to input the words, installed boundaries.

You can choose to believe me or not. My own wife has said the same thing. I've given enough defense of myself.

I'm sorry, I know I said last post...but I thought SunnyAndrsn asked the key question so I answered it.

What is the difference between punishment, disciplining and installing boundaries?

What is the difference in what would trigger punishment, disciplining and installing boundaries?

Why would boundaries for how each partner would act be set after the marriage, as opposed to agreed upon before marriage?

"Installing boundaries" brings to mind the invisible fences that people use to keep their dog in a yard... step over a line and get a shock, which seems very much to define power in the situation... one person is controlling the other.

Do you believe that husbands/men must always discipline/control wives/women, or is your solution specific to your situation? Do you believe women can ever be autonomous?

[formergothardite]

Okay, forgive me I'm not a computer guy and don't know how to copy and paste all your different names and questions you had so when I address the issues forgive me for not addressing it to you correctly.

Do we have our own blog? No at this time. My wife once told her story at Warrior Wives, very briefly, very sanitized under a psuedo-name. That is the best I can do.

Every single thing I mentioned in my post is mentioned originally, from being under a doctor and counselor's care to the car keys but you have to read not just the two or three posts but somewhere north of 500 or comments to get all the information. It was poorly communicated as I have said a few times.

I am not here to "change" you or tell you you are wrong. It's your life. I and my wife post in a few places. We will say what we think the Bible teaches on a subject and what we think is best but I'm not here to change your mind, except on this, I am not an abuser and my wife is not miserable. We are half hermits, so take this for what it is because we don't interact with too many people, but of the dozen couples we see regularly we have the most joy, trust and love shown in our marriage than any other marriage we have witnessed growing up, in our churches, or in the many people we meet for business or socially. I am not "bragging" but stating as a fact that how we are charachterized on FJ is completely inaccurate. That is all my post was about. I'm not here to turn you into me or my wife.

As to the feminist quotes, I see you were able to discredit about (totallly off the top of my head, yes I know this is truly a made up percentage because I did not count how many I pasted or how many you discredited...just ballparking) 10-20% of them. I will study what you said, but I am going to take you at your word and admit that those quotes were indeed mischarachterizations and for that I apolagize. They were printed widely in many places and I was gullible enough to fall for it.

Thank you for apologizing for that. Ken refused to do so. It takes a little bit of digging to find out where the quotes really came from, because so often anti-women blogs just quote them over and over again as the truth so that is what comes up first.

I got my information on you from Lori's post about you which says this:

There have been times where I have disciplined her by not allowing her to go out with the gals, not spending money on items except necessary food and clothing for the family, not attending women's bible study {believe it or not...unless you have the right church anymore some can push women further way from their husbands than closer to them}, there was even a few times she had to sleep on the couch, a couple times I made her sleep in the cabin on our property when she was downright in complete anarchy against our marriage, family and God's Word. She's had to clean the house as a punishment

So yes, it appears that you cut her off from friends, money, going to church and secluded her in a cabin in the woods. What does complete anarchy against your marriage mean? To me it means she wanted out and you MADE her go to a cabin in the woods against her will. You punished her as if she was a small child by forcing her to clean the house. That is bizarre.

But still to this day I structure her life and keep it low key. She doesn't do a lot outside the home. She homeschools and bakes from scratch and takes care of the home. I don't do this because I'm mean. I do this because very quickly she will become overwhelmed, depressed and exhausted and she knows it now

I want you to realize that I have seen many, many abusers say almost exactly the same thing as you are saying here. You did not say that you were doing this under the guidance of doctors and therapists here and since I don't read all the comments I could only go on what you wrote here.

For years I was accused of being an abuser and got sideways looks even from family and those in church.

This says to me tha your friends and family thought you were abusing. You never clarified that they later they changed their minds.

My point is this ladies, at the moment of discipline, you can have the most wonderful loving parent, God or husband in the world but in that moment, it's going to seem awful. My wife thought I was. It didn't matter how many times I told her I loved her, how tender I was, how wonderful of a father I was, how hard I worked...nothing worked because I would not let her go her own way {a way I knew was not right and was rebellion}.

This is the classic, "I only hurt you because I love you" line that abuser use to manipulate the abused into enduring more abuse. If you didn't mean it this way then you should have written it better because that is the impression you gave.

And YES, while I may not enjoy it, I do think discipline is essential. When I screw up something, I need to be called out. If it's minor, a conversation will take care of it. If it's big, then there needs to be a consequence. Do I like it? No, but that's because it's my own PRIDE and selfishness. No one wants to be told they messed up, but if we aren't ever corrected, we don't grow. We don't learn from our mistakes. It has nothing to do with it being against God, it's pride that says 'you can't discipline m

This is from your wife. Does she get to discipline you? Is it not pride that is keeping you from wanting your wife to discipline you? If you aren't corrected, can't you not grow? Isn't it true that you can't learn from your mistakes so it is pride that says "you can't discipline me"? Or is it just women that are so ignorant and childish that this applies only to them?

[Curious]

Okay, forgive me I'm not a computer guy and don't know how to copy and paste all your different names and questions you had so when I address the issues forgive me for not addressing it to you correctly.

Just a helpful hint. The easiest way is this: In the upper right of each post, you should see several options, one of which is quote. If you click on that for the post you want to respond to, it will open a new post for you with all the text from that post already in the text box for you.

You can then cut out any parts you don't wish to respond to, add bold to something you want to highlight or whatever. Just make sure that you have the opening

[quote] at the beginning and closing [/quote]

at the end and it will be in a nice little quote box for you.

Just type your new text a couple spaces down after the and you will be good to go. You can hit the preview button to make sure everything looks right before submitting.

Congrats on becoming a Tater Tot (it's better than telling everyone they are going to hell, yes?) ;)

Edit: had to put my example in code tags because it thought I was trying to quote something :doh:

[Cabinetman]

Yes, I let my wife correct and rebuke me. For example, for years I struggled with occassional porn use and I asked her to keep me accountable and to password me in and out of our computer. Men are in need of correction also. I do believe you go about it different because we are different, but again this is an area where you and I will not agree on because we have a different belief system.

I WILL NOT give details on what triggered boundaries/discipline. It was not her wanting to leave, it was her destroying me and herself. I have told you it was approved by professionals and her loved ones. If that is not enough for you that is all you are going to get. I have given you 75% of the story, and that is enough. The last 25% is to protect my wife.

I find it remarkable that you can't find consequences for certain actions not only justifible, but also healthy and loving.

That is a cornerstone of about every relationship, whether family, friend, business, societal or otherwise. I know for a fact you would believe that if a man did it. If a man hit a woman. Spent his money on hookers. Never came home. Gambled away the mortgage money. Spoke horrible things to you day after day.

I know for a fact you believe consequences/boundaries/discipline would be in store then.

The problem that exsists between us is you can't seem to imagine women who are just as rebellious/sinful/damaging.

You still are not reading everything I wrote. I encouraged her to go out with certain friends. I was not isolating her from people who were healthy for her to be around.

Sir holding the camera, I did not come here and degrade you for your atheists beliefs. I have spoken respectfully, even when disagreeing with you. You are welcome to your beliefs and I won't insult your intelligence for holding them. I am an intelligent person and a loving person. I can live side by side with you and respect the way you want to live, can you please do the same for me?

[latraviata]

and you will be good to go. You can hit the preview button to make sure everything looks right before submitting.

Congrats on becoming a Tater Tot (it's better than telling everyone they are going to hell, yes?) ;)

Edit: had to put my example in code tags because it thought I was trying to quote something :doh:

[salex]

I find it remarkable that you can't find consequences for certain actions not only justifible, but also healthy and loving.

That is a cornerstone of about every relationship, whether family, friend, business, societal or otherwise. I know for a fact you would believe that if a man did it. If a man hit a woman. Spent his money on hookers. Never came home. Gambled away the mortgage money. Spoke horrible things to you day after day.

I agree that boundaries are critical. The examples you use would be "deal breakers", whether it was the woman doing it or the man. There would not be a big bunch of disciplining going on, because these are boundaries set up in advance (at least in my house) and these would be game enders. I wondered why you stayed in an abusive situation... love, embarassment, hope, cultural shame... the same sorts of things that keep women in abusive situations. But changing the control from her abuse to your discipline sounds, to this outsider, like a tit for tat game.

Have you heard of Stockholm Syndrome? Do you see how one or both of you may have fallen into that type of situation in what you describe as an abusive sitution where she is the abuser and then a controlling/disciplining one where you are establishing boundaries?

Do you believe that there are relationships where boundaries are mutually agreed upon and the partners do not have to monitor or discipline one another?

[latraviata]

Yes, I let my wife correct and rebuke me. For example, for years I struggled with occassional porn use and I asked her to keep me accountable and to password me in and out of our computer. Men are in need of correction also. I do believe you go about it different because we are different, but again this is an area where you and I will not agree on because we have a different belief system.

I WILL NOT give details on what triggered boundaries/discipline. It was not her wanting to leave, it was her destroying me and herself. I have told you it was approved by professionals and her loved ones. If that is not enough for you that is all you are going to get. I have given you 75% of the story, and that is enough. The last 25% is to protect my wife.

I find it remarkable that you can't find consequences for certain actions not only justifible, but also healthy and loving.

That is a cornerstone of about every relationship, whether family, friend, business, societal or otherwise. I know for a fact you would believe that if a man did it. If a man hit a woman. Spent his money on hookers. Never came home. Gambled away the mortgage money. Spoke horrible things to you day after day.

I know for a fact you believe consequences/boundaries/discipline would be in store then.

The problem that exsists between us is you can't seem to imagine women who are just as rebellious/sinful/damaging.

You still are not reading everything I wrote. I encouraged her to go out with certain friends. I was not isolating her from people who were healthy for her to be around.

Sir holding the camera, I did not come here and degrade you for your atheists beliefs. I have spoken respectfully, even when disagreeing with you. You are welcome to your beliefs and I won't insult your intelligence for holding them. I am an intelligent person and a loving person. I can live side by side with you and respect the way you want to live, can you please do the same for me?

The man with the camera is 'Germont' the late husband of La Traviata http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_traviata, he isn't holding a camera but a glass of red wine.....

I exercise my right to express my opinion as much as you do.

Personally and as a professional, I find your attitude to marriage (women) and child rearing quite offensive.

Porn? Typical.......why doesn't this surprise me, however I don't see much harm in watching porn.

You were not isolating her from people who were healthy for her to be around. Does that mean you decide wether somebody is healthy for her to be around??

No sir, considering all you write and post here, you do not give me the impression of being intelligent and loving.

[usmcmom]

Looking back it was cobbled together from my comments on her blog about many different issues and not told well. We get the blame because we approved it the night before not realizing what a shitstorm it would cause. We honestly did not want all the information to come out so we told little by little and that made it even worse, so we have a large part in the fault of the story not being told well for people to understand. That said, I told the story today and folks still don't believe me. I found PMDD listed in under five minutes, but I was called a liar tonight about that and it was suggested I was in coercian to erase/change blog posts. At some point people are just going to believe what they believe. To them, me taking the car keys when my wife was not capable of driving without crashing is an act of control and not an act of love and protecting my wife. I don't know how to respond to that kind of bias.

I have outright said how many different people from many different backgrounds ok'd everything and I'm just called a liar and worse.

Cabinet Man, it seems to me you'd want to have a conversation with Lori and Ken about how your story was cobbled together and presented poorly. THEY are the ones that have misrepresented you.

I have many questions for you and Ken, but will start with this one: why have each of you been willing to tell, in great detail, the stories of how rebellious your wife was? It's like you want us to believe that in all your years of marriage you were never unloving or unkind. You have mentioned that you struggled with porn, and I appreciate that you gave that humanizing detail; but I refuse to believe that the wife is the only one who had character flaws in your marriage.

And because the issue of Christian members has been mentioned a couple of times: I am a Christian and did not feel intimidated to join FJ; they all appear to be a very reasonable and tolerant group of people. I am not ashamed to profess my faith here. I am ashamed, however, to let men like you and Ken represent my faith.

[Cabinetman]

They were not game enders for me because I promised for better or worse. If they are deal breakers on your end, that is for you to decide.

If my discipline sounds tit for tat, I don't know what to say. Instead of leaving her penniless, without the children (I could of had custody, both by law and by her consent), in deep depression which were all options legally and even offered to me by my wife OR as her doctor said have her locked up, I chose to stick by my wife and love her through it & stick it out. Yes, tough love was involved in the sticking it out process.

Many of you don't share my belief system, but by my belief system I am called to be Christlike and Christ's love is often tough love even when it is given freely and when we don't deserve it. I tried, to the best of my ability to live that out for/to my wife as I promised her I would when I married her. I'm sure I made a thousand mistakes along the way, but it's easy to play armchair quaterback when you don't have 11 guys trying to rip your head off in the heat of the moment.

My wife does not have Stockholm Syndrome. Again, folks we had a counselor and doctors involved.

You do not agree with our faith/belief system, which was agreed upon before marriage, reaffirmed throughout and to this day is what we agree upon.

My wife nor I no longer discipline each other. We have a healthy relationship full of love.

[polecat]

I find it remarkable that you can't find consequences for certain actions not only justifible, but also healthy and loving.

That is a cornerstone of about every relationship, whether family, friend, business, societal or otherwise. I know for a fact you would believe that if a man did it. If a man hit a woman. Spent his money on hookers. Never came home. Gambled away the mortgage money. Spoke horrible things to you day after day.

Most of those I would consider deal breakers, and those boundaries were set before either of us ever said, "I will."

ETA because I think it's important: If my husband suddenly began behaving out of character, I'd strongly encourage medical care/evaluation before kicking him out or locking him away in a cabin in an attempt to punish him/discipline him. If he refused medical care (totally his right), then he'd also need to find another place to live until he had gotten whatever it was figured out. I grew up with an untreated mentally ill mother, and I will never subject my kids to that if there is anything I can do to prevent it.

[polecat]

If my discipline sounds tit for tat, I don't know what to say. Instead of leaving her penniless, without the children (I could of had custody, both by law and by her consent), in deep depression which were all options legally and even offered to me by my wife OR as her doctor said have her locked up, I chose to stick by my wife and love her through it & stick it out.

The doctor told you to lock her up? One would think the doctor would recommend hospitalization if the illness was that severe.

And I'm just going to leave this here:

Under federal and state law, kidnapping is commonly defined as the taking of a person from one place to another against his or her will, or the confining of a person to a controlled space.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-ch ... pping.html

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, neither do I play one online.

[usmcmom]

I won't speak for everybody here but where I have concerns with your story, Cabinet Man, is in your use of words like "discipline," "training" "boundaries." Maybe they are just words but they come across as very harsh to me. They all indicate a very uneven relationship where one party is superior to the other. They leave, in my mind, the impression that you consider your wife to be less than you - lowly. Your heart may be quite tender toward her, but we don't get that message from the words you've chosen. I believe Lori wanted to present you in a very harsh light, but if these are your words, you might want to consider how you are coming across as you tell your story. More importantly, you might want to be more careful in how you allow others to present you on their personal blogs.

[Hane]

That's just our post count title. We have the initial one "you are going to hell" because so many of our "fundie" visitors would pop in and tell us we were all going to hell and leave that it became sort of an inside joke. I think it changes at 5 posts (maybe it's 10. I can't recall off the top of my head).

Also, no one expects that you only have to post 1 time. You are free to post as much or as little as you would like. Just like every other member.

Welcome to FJ

Curious, honey, you're either WAYYYYYYYYY nicer than I am or you're feeding the troll. *cringes*

[Cabinetman]

Alright folks, this will be my last post. This tires me out too much and stresses me and you have enough information to make a decision on.

You said you wouldn't judge me for my christian beliefs, except that is exactly what has happened by some of you. Some of you not, and thank you for it. You said I would be treated fairly, regardless of my gender, but am told that I must be a bad guy. If a man hits a woman, does she have to be a bad guy with "charachter flaws" also then by your reasoning? That is not being treated fairly.

Some of you want to believe something about me and there is nothing I can say or do that would change that. I am a flawed man, with many faults, which WE ALL HAVE, which I have freely admitted to many times in my brief posts here and yet you have to continue to bring up that I must be flawed. It makes no sense...I admitted that! I am not here saying I am perfect. I had, what even the professionals called, an impossible situation. I stuck it out. I loved. I forgave. I lead the best way I knew how, following the Bible, the help I could get and the advice offered. You have not been there and yet you judge me. I don't share my story with Lori's audience because I think I'm great. The whole point was this, no matter whether you are a husband, wife or child when tough love (discipline/boundaries/etc) is used, and there are often times in life when it is called for, in the moment it is hard to see what the other person is doing as good/loving/beneficial. I thought my dad was the biggest SOB in the world when I was a teenager, but looking back, he just really loved me. A lot. He had my best interest at heart. I couldn't see it at the time because of the circumstances and my maturity level.

And if there is one thing that is not accepted in this world right now it's tough love towards women. Men, sure, with open arms. Kids, yep, just don't spank. But not women and especially not by their husbands. They have no problem with the reverse and neither do I but don't you dare talk about tough love towards a women. Well, that is the same attitude I have found here and that is why I shared our story. That's it folks. I see way too many marriages around where the wifes attitude is off limits, not the husbands, just the wifes. Is our example extreme, you bet. But if it's true in the extreme how much more so in the the normal.

We have fundamental disagreement about everything, from how the world was made to the purpose of life. I have spoke respectfully, been truthful and have answered your questions. I ask that you give my wife and I peace. Just leave us alone. We are not out to harm you or women. I will not try to harm, cause harm to your name or reputation or just plain be mean to you. I just ask for the same. That is called tolerance. That is called respecting your neighbor. I may say things that go against your teaching, but I won't attack YOU. Can I ask the same?

[Pam]

...

Also, one thing I think it was Pam brought up, I have spoke dozens of times on how husbands can "be in rebellion". I know many men that are in the exact state.

Spoken in writing or just verbally? Reason I ask that is because if written somewhere where I could view it, I would really like to see it......not that I don't believe you, but that I'd find it rather refreshing to see a man speak of how husband can be "in rebellion" against their wives. It's often said that husbands can be "in rebellion" against God (never that husbands can be in rebellion against their wives) whereas wives can be "in rebellion" against both their husbands and against God, as if the husband is some kind of authority over her rather than an equal partner with her.

[usmcmom]

Alright folks, this will be my last post. This tires me out too much and stresses me and you have enough information to make a decision on.

You said you wouldn't judge me for my christian beliefs, except that is exactly what has happened by some of you. Some of you not, and thank you for it. You said I would be treated fairly, regardless of my gender, but am told that I must be a bad guy. If a man hits a woman, does she have to be a bad guy with "charachter flaws" also then by your reasoning? That is not being treated fairly.

Some of you want to believe something about me and there is nothing I can say or do that would change that. I am a flawed man, with many faults, which WE ALL HAVE, which I have freely admitted to many times in my brief posts here and yet you have to continue to bring up that I must be flawed. It makes no sense...I admitted that! I am not here saying I am perfect. I had, what even the professionals called, an impossible situation. I stuck it out. I loved. I forgave. I lead the best way I knew how, following the Bible, the help I could get and the advice offered. You have not been there and yet you judge me. I don't share my story with Lori's audience because I think I'm great. The whole point was this, no matter whether you are a husband, wife or child when tough love (discipline/boundaries/etc) is used, and there are often times in life when it is called for, in the moment it is hard to see what the other person is doing as good/loving/beneficial. I thought my dad was the biggest SOB in the world when I was a teenager, but looking back, he just really loved me. A lot. He had my best interest at heart. I couldn't see it at the time because of the circumstances and my maturity level.

And if there is one thing that is not accepted in this world right now it's tough love towards women. Men, sure, with open arms. Kids, yep, just don't spank. But not women and especially not by their husbands. They have no problem with the reverse and neither do I but don't you dare talk about tough love towards a women. Well, that is the same attitude I have found here and that is why I shared our story. That's it folks. I see way too many marriages around where the wifes attitude is off limits, not the husbands, just the wifes. Is our example extreme, you bet. But if it's true in the extreme how much more so in the the normal.

We have fundamental disagreement about everything, from how the world was made to the purpose of life. I have spoke respectfully, been truthful and have answered your questions. I ask that you give my wife and I peace. Just leave us alone. We are not out to harm you or women. I will not try to harm, cause harm to your name or reputation or just plain be mean to you. I just ask for the same. That is called tolerance. That is called respecting your neighbor. I may say things that go against your teaching, but I won't attack YOU. Can I ask the same?

Well, shoot! I was just going to comment that Cabinet Man seemed a little more reasonable than Ken and now this! This, with the hyperbole and passive aggressive comments.

[2xx1xy1JD]

She was not mentally ill. It appeared as mental illness. Not the same thing. She wouldn't control herself.

I don't remember using the word punish, but if I did it was a poor choice of words. Discipline yes. A husband disciplining his wife is probably one of the things we will never agree on. Feel free to input the words, installed boundaries.

You can choose to believe me or not. My own wife has said the same thing. I've given enough defense of myself.

I'm sorry, I know I said last post...but I thought SunnyAndrsn asked the key question so I answered it.

You said it was PMDD, and you also mentioned possible depression at some point.

Here's a basic summary of what PMDD is: http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-cond ... q-20058315

In short, it's a disorder where hormonal changes either cause or worsen symptoms of a mood disorder.

If that was the genuine diagnosis, it's not that the wife WOULDN'T control herself. It's that she had an underlying medical condition which meant that she COULDN'T control her mood. I don't see anything under recommended treatment that involves discipline or isolation or submission.

In one of her comments, Cabinetman's Wife wrote:

I had planned to divorce him. I had planned to actually commit suicide. Yes, seriously, had plans.

To me, that's not being "difficult" or "rebellious". That's not the same as Ken complaining that Lori bitched about him playing too much basketball and spent too much on vitamins and veggies. That's a dangerous, call 911 crisis.

For the past 20 years, I've worked with family cases, many of which involved either domestic violence or mental illness. My sister does in-patient, out-patient and community-based programming in the mental health field. Extreme isolation is a huge red flag to both of us. It goes against pretty much every therapeutic recommendation.

Yes, I know you say that you went to several doctors. That happens sometimes. It doesn't mean that you should avoid professionals - it means you make that much more effort to get answers and find the right professional.

I've had a number of cases where a controlling husband alleged that a wife was mentally ill, despite the fact that there was no independent professional evidence of any mental illness other than some situational depression. Without knowing Cabinetman or his wife or seeing the medical records, we have no way of knowing what the actual diagnosis was, whether there was any underlying mental illness, or whether the home situation caused or contributed to the problem.

At the point of a crisis, you also do more than just book an appointment with a doctor. If someone is violent or suicidal, most jurisdictions will have a process for involuntary admission to hospital. Again, where were the children during these times? When did the home schooling start? Exposing children to domestic violence by either parent or leaving them in the care of someone who is clearly suicidal is abusive and dangerous. Yes, I can believe that women can be dangerous. I've had cases where we had documented proof that women caused serious, sometimes life-threatening, injuries to their husbands, often with the children around. There was also a murder-suicide involving the wife and children in my extended family. So, when your wife says herself that she had a plan in place to kill herself, that she wanted to leave and that she didn't even care about the kids, that's a huge danger sign to me.

Finally - I respect that you have more of a sense of boundaries and privacy online than Ken and Lori do, but you can't expect to have pieces of your story posted together by your friend Lori to highlight the most controlling aspects while leaving out most of the crucial details that would provide context, and not expect people to react. Reading over the posts and comments again, it's almost like the readers are being trolled. You're very quick to claim that feminists have ruined society and you were called abusive and the law is all against men, but you and Lori and Ken set up the discussion in a way that you were purposely painted as controlling and abusive. It wasn't presented as a discussion about how to deal with a spouse who is experiencing symptoms of a mood disorder. It wasn't presented as a discussion of how people react in a crisis situation, and how we need to look at all the facts before drawing conclusions.

Please point out where ANYONE here, or in any mainstream counseling, has said that no action can be taken when a women's actions threaten her spouse or children? Women can be arrested for assault. Women can be charged with harassment or stalking. Women can be involuntarily committed if they are a serious danger to themselves or others due to suspected mental illness. Women can lose custody of children if they have addictions or violent behavior or uncontrolled mental illness that poses a threat. You are making a straw man argument.

[polecat]

And if there is one thing that is not accepted in this world right now it's tough love towards women. Men, sure, with open arms. Kids, yep, just don't spank. But not women and especially not by their husbands. They have no problem with the reverse and neither do I but don't you dare talk about tough love towards a women. Well, that is the same attitude I have found here and that is why I shared our story. That's it folks. I see way too many marriages around where the wifes attitude is off limits, not the husbands, just the wifes. Is our example extreme, you bet. But if it's true in the extreme how much more so in the the normal.

Can you define "tough love"? I can guarantee my husband's response towards abuse from me would be pretty much the same as mine would be to abuse from him. Same with a sudden change in character or behavior: While he may not toss me right out on my ear over a sudden, dramatic and negative character change (nor would I), he'd absolutely insist on a medical/psych eval and treatment, if necessary. And if I was unwilling? He'd do what was necessary to protect himself and our children. That's not punishment or correction, though -- just common sense.

I'm not sure what went down with you and your wife, but I will say that locking a spouse inside a cabin and limiting his/her contact with family members really, really rubs me the wrong way. I can understand taking the keys away from someone who is unable to drive safely, but I cannot justify locking someone up against his/her will or isolating him/her from family members.