We're Always Learning New Things with Ken Alexander: Part 2

[samurai_sarah]

(snip)

Many of you don't share my belief system, but by my belief system I am called to be Christlike and Christ's love is often tough love even when it is given freely and when we don't deserve it. (snip)

Fun fact: You're not the only Christian on FJ! On the contrary. There are quite a number of Christians on FJ.

[Cabinetman]

The kids were always, always safe. I made sure of that. I also did not let them witness anything. And again, this is over half a decade ago. Our kids who are 9 & 7 have never seen what transpired before my wife was fine. If there was the slightest instance of the kids being hurt I would have taken your advice and asked her to leave for good.

I did not lock my wife in a cabin. I told her she either had to leave & get a hotel or sleep in the cabin. Big difference.

I did not isolate my wife from her friends or family. I told her I did not want her seeing a certain group of ladies, one whom was in her first year in couseling school, who were not helping but hurting my wife with their so called wisdom. They did almost as much wrong diagnosing as you all. You are not health professionals, I sought those out, in mass and yet you continue to doubt everything I say. Isolation, is precisely what women with PMDD crave. It is exactly what they need. Google PMMD blogs, read for an hour and then come back and apolagize profusely because you are honestly talking out your asses on this. You have no idea what you are talking about, none, zip...but you act as though you are the authority on it. I have spent hundreds of hours reading on PMDD. I know it in and out. You are seriously clueless and making false claims against me because of it. Your ignorance does not excuse what you are saying about me. Go read and then please apolagize. You all do not know what you are talking about.

The word many, indicates that yes indeed, I knew some people here were christians. If not I would have used the word all. I'm not sure of the point you were trying to make when it does not contridict my point/sentence in the least.

[salex]

Cabinetman"]

They were not game enders for me because I promised for better or worse. If they are deal breakers on your end, that is for you to decide.

I come from a family where divorce is not common. IN the last 4 generations from my grandparents through my aunts/uncles, cousins and cousin's kids, on my mother's side (she had 2 siblings) there have been zero divorces and on my father side (he had 5 siblings) in that same grouping of generations there have been 3 divorces. This in a span of nearly 150 years and with many many people. So I don't view divorce lightly. However, the things you describe-- verbal or physical abuse, alcoholism/addiction that is not managed, gambling that would take everyone down with one partner-- yes, these are deal breakers. That is why selection of a spouse is important. And, seperating for one's own physical, emotional or financial protection is no less valid, to me, than leaving because the person is sleeping around. There are many ways to be unfaithful in a marriage.

If my discipline sounds tit for tat, I don't know what to say. Instead of leaving her penniless, without the children (I could of had custody, both by law and by her consent), in deep depression which were all options legally and even offered to me by my wife OR as her doctor said have her locked up, I chose to stick by my wife and love her through it & stick it out. Yes, tough love was involved in the sticking it out process.Many of you don't share my belief system, but by my belief system I am called to be Christlike and Christ's love is often tough love even when it is given freely and when we don't deserve it. I tried, to the best of my ability to live that out for/to my wife as I promised her I would when I married her. I'm sure I made a thousand mistakes along the way, but it's easy to play armchair quaterback when you don't have 11 guys trying to rip your head off in the heat of the moment.

Tough love is usually defined as no longer supporting the person and letting them hit rock bottom -- locking children out of the house if they come home late or drunk, or forcing a person into treatment if they are addicted. It sounds like you chose a do it yourself version of this, even though professionals were involved. You are, in my opinion, fortunate that it worked for you, as you would have been fortunate had you followed other methods and it worked. I don't know if this was 10 or 20 years ago, but if it really was a hormonal imbalance, age may have done as much to cure it as your tactics.

My wife does not have Stockholm Syndrome. Again, folks we had a counselor and doctors involved.

You do not agree with our faith/belief system, which was agreed upon before marriage, reaffirmed throughout and to this day is what we agree upon.

My wife nor I no longer discipline each other. We have a healthy relationship full of love.

[Firiel]

Ah man! I missed Cabinetman! :(

Do y'all think he'll be back?

EDIT: He posted while I posted this, ha ha. Sometimes I forget what "last post" means in Internet speak. :P

[Tesseract]

Whatever he wants to call it, they are participating in a power exchange dynamic. That's fab if it is consensual. But let's not gloss over the idea that if it is truly consensual, it is sexual at it's core. "Punishing" your "misbehaving", "naughty" wife - please... Kinky buzzwords.

The problem I am having with this situation, is that religion is invoked and the women are told this is the biblical model of marriage. When you play on someone's deep spiritual beliefs to argue this kind of dynamic, to me, it seems manipulative, coercive, and not truly consensual. It plays on the fear of personal salvation.

On being deeply religious and kinky - I think a lot of times religion is used to "purify" what most people would label as kink. Some are ashamed or view "kink" as not right, so "kink" becomes "biblical". I've seen that in the secular realm, too, under the moniker of DD (not saying everyone who uses the term DD is struggling that way). Our culture is one heck of a mix of sexual repression and out there in your face sexuality.

Abuse can happen in any relationship, but there is a difference here. Without the "because god", you don't have that added layer of being afraid for your fate in the afterlife if you walk out the door. I see it as true for an individual couple, but it gets worse as the more institutionalized or sanctified it becomes. When taken to it's logical ends, you can see the effects in the FLDS, and in it's most extreme, the culture within Saudi Arabia. It really doesn't matter which god or prophet you invoke. I'd fight for men if it were happening in the reverse. What purpose does it serve our species to limit/waste the minds and talents of half the population?

There is so much going through my mind right now, and I'm not sure I am doing a very good job of communicating the complexity of the thoughts, and for that I apologize. My thoughts are bigger than this one couple, but connected, because the Alexander's hold them up as an example of righteous living, and they give lip service to consent while evangelizing. Gah.

On hitting kids - millions are able to raise well adjusted adults without hitting or shaming. Say millions of kids make it to adulthood well adjusted, who were hit/shamed. If it can be done without hitting, then why would anyone chose to hit/shame? I'll never understand how these people can be 'proud' of their methods. I, personally, can't wait for the day that the human race finally outlaws the assault of it's most vulnerable people.

[AllisonWndrland]

Ah man! I missed Cabinetman! :(

Do y'all think he'll be back?

He hasn't left yet. See his last post from just a few minutes ago in which he tells a forum with many female members they know nothing about PMDD.

[Rebelwife]

I fully confess I'm only up to page 11 on this thread, but I laughed when I saw that in Cabinet man's next post after complaining about "You're all going to hell" and saying he was only posting once he had already changed to "lurking since Yuku."

[Cabinetman]

All I ask is you leave us alone. My precious wife and my kids are happy, safe and loved. You don't have to share our religious convictions. You don't have to agree with me. But can you please, I ask, leave us alone? Let my family be at peace please. If you have tolerance like you say, then let that apply to us. We don't want trouble with you. We are real people, with real lives. Will you agree to that please?

[usmcmom]

The kids were always, always safe. I made sure of that. I also did not let them witness anything. And again, this is over half a decade ago. Our kids who are 9 & 7 have never seen what transpired before my wife was fine. If there was the slightest instance of the kids being hurt I would have taken your advice and asked her to leave for good.

I did not lock my wife in a cabin. I told her she either had to leave & get a hotel or sleep in the cabin. Big difference.

I did not isolate my wife from her friends or family. I told her I did not want her seeing a certain group of ladies, one whom was in her first year in couseling school, who were not helping but hurting my wife with their so called wisdom. They did almost as much wrong diagnosing as you all. You are not health professionals, I sought those out, in mass and yet you continue to doubt everything I say. Isolation, is precisely what women with PMDD crave. It is exactly what they need. Google PMMD blogs, read for an hour and then come back and apolagize profusely because you are honestly talking out your asses on this. You have no idea what you are talking about, none, zip...but you act as though you are the authority on it. I have spent hundreds of hours reading on PMDD. I know it in and out. You are seriously clueless and making false claims against me because of it. Your ignorance does not excuse what you are saying about me. Go read and then please apolagize. You all do not know what you are talking about.

The word many, indicates that yes indeed, I knew some people here were christians. If not I would have used the word all. I'm not sure of the point you were trying to make when it does not contridict my point/sentence in the least.

But on Lori's blog, these are "your" words:

"There have been times where I have disciplined her by not allowing her to go out with the gals, not spending money on items except necessary food and clothing for the family, not attending women's bible study {believe it or not...unless you have the right church anymore some can push women further way from their husbands than closer to them}, there was even a few times she had to sleep on the couch, a couple times I made her sleep in the cabin on our property when she was downright in complete anarchy against our marriage, family and God's Word. She's had to clean the house as a punishment."

"Your" words on Lori's blog indicate that she was not given a choice as to where she would sleep. I only bring this up because I really think your issue is with Lori. Have you even looked into whether SHE is the one who is misrepresenting you?

[Hisey]

Interesting. He'll share how he needed to discipline his wife, how she was rebellious, how she needed boundaries, etc. He says the things she did were so terrible that he would've gotten full custody, for sure.

But he won't even tell us one thing that she did to deserve these labels. Not even one thing. What did she do that was "out of control"? What does he mean by "rebellious"?

When a man can't give details, and just uses vague derogatory terms, I think that is very suspicious. Of course, he's doing it to "protect his wife." Yup, otherwise he'd be happy to share.

I suspect she dared to be insistent and disagree with him.

[Curious]

Please point out where ANYONE here, or in any mainstream counseling, has said that no action can be taken when a women's actions threaten her spouse or children? Women can be arrested for assault. Women can be charged with harassment or stalking. Women can be involuntarily committed if they are a serious danger to themselves or others due to suspected mental illness. Women can lose custody of children if they have addictions or violent behavior or uncontrolled mental illness that poses a threat. You are making a straw man argument.

This is not quite the same situation, but many of us here have said that if Jon Gosselin treated Kate like SHE treated him that there would have been many people saying that he was being abusive toward her.

I am one of those people. She HIT Emeril with a freaking wooden spoon (twice!). If a man did that to a woman, on tv, no less, there would have been a freaking national outcry.

She absolutely was abusive to him and there is plenty of footage that proves it.

[Tesseract]

He hasn't left yet. See his last post from just a few minutes ago in which he tells a forum with many female members they know nothing about PMDD.

Yeah, 'cause no one here would know anything about that :roll:

[polecat]

This is not quite the same situation, but many of us here have said that if Jon Gosselin treated Kate like SHE treated him that there would have been many people saying that he was being abusive toward her.

I am one of those people. She HIT Emeril with a freaking wooden spoon (twice!). If a man did that to a woman, on tv, no less, there would have been a freaking national outcry.

She absolutely was abusive to him and there is plenty of footage that proves it.

Kate was extremely abusive, imo.

[Rescinded and Mended]

Okay Cabinetman, I'll bite. I took this quote of yours from Lori's blog. It's from her March 24th post, Thinking We Are Better Than Our Husbands.

Cabinetman said:

"There is actually quite a bit of this kind of teaching out there in the christian world, maybe even the majority of it. Just last week I had the leader of christian blogs tell me exactly this, that women do indeed care more about their marriages, that they do less damage to their marriages, that they are indeed more open to spiritual things...I could go on, but you get the idea...women are superior. You see it throughout the churches and you also see it in all the messages we receive from the media. From Disney movie's as a kid, to how school is approached, to the messages you will hear in pop culture music. The world has accepted this frame of mind, it is not biblical or correct, but it does create a very toxic environment for marriage and for church. We have to go back to scripture repeatedly to renew our mind and see what God says about all things because we are in constant bombardment from the world and even from christians who have accepted the world's intrepretation of things. Our "frame" needs to be the one God lays out and not the constant shifting, subtle evil ways of the world."

In an earlier post, I proposed that you suffered from feelings of inferiority, which has perhaps influenced the manner in which you choose to treat your wife. In this post, you seem to feel that because women are elevated by the media and the church in certain situations, that because they care for their marriages and safeguard their families, this is somehow "toxic" and a threat to Biblical manhood and the idea of submission. How, exactly? I am honestly curious.

I would also like to point out that most, if not all, of the women posting here do not believe they are superior to you or any other man because they are female. The idea of feminism is to strive toward a sense of equality, the idea that we, as women, are worth just as much as men, and that we should be treated accordingly. It has nothing to do with the belief that women are superior to men.

[Curious]

Curious, honey, you're either WAYYYYYYYYY nicer than I am or you're feeding the troll. *cringes*

I try to do one good deed per day ;)

Honestly though, I really don't mind when the people we follow drop by for a chat. I have found Cabinetman to be more intelligent than Ken, so far. His posts actually address the points/questions people are asking and other than his initial post, he isn't trying to cover his non-answers by writing a wall of condescending gobbedy gook.

He also apologized for mischaracterizing the feminist quotes when FG pointed out why they were not true. Something Ken wouldn't even address.

[Pam]

Fun fact: You're not the only Christian on FJ! On the contrary. There are quite a number of Christians on FJ.

Indeed, I consider myself Christian..........but then again, it is my Christian belief that a husband does NOT have a Godly right to rule over his wife, and to discipline/train/set boundaries for her as if she were a perpetual child, so I suppose I am not a "True Christian™"

[Firiel]

Interesting. He'll share how he needed to discipline his wife, how she was rebellious, how she needed boundaries, etc. He says the things she did were so terrible that he would've gotten full custody, for sure.

But he won't even tell us one thing that she did to deserve these labels. Not even one thing. What did she do that was "out of control"? What does he mean by "rebellious"?

When a man can't give details, and just uses vague derogatory terms, I think that is very suspicious. Of course, he's doing it to "protect his wife." Yup, otherwise he'd be happy to share.

I suspect she dared to be insistent and disagree with him.

Me too. Not to mention the fact that certain "out of control" or "rebellious" behavior (which sounds like mental illness and real, dangerous suicidal impulses, to me) can be the result of crazymaking behavior, where an abusive partner acts in such a way to throw his/her partner off emotionally and mentally and make it easier to control him/her.

As Internet folk, we really don't know enough about Cabinetman to truly understand the dynamics of his relationship with his wife, that much is true. But calling his suicidal wife "rebellious" and "in complete anarchy against our marriage" instead of saying that she was ill, hurting, confused, etc. seems odd to say the least.

[salex]

All I ask is you leave us alone. My precious wife and my kids are happy, safe and loved. You don't have to share our religious convictions. You don't have to agree with me. But can you please, I ask, leave us alone? Let my family be at peace please. If you have tolerance like you say, then let that apply to us. We don't want trouble with you. We are real people, with real lives. Will you agree to that please?

What?

Who has been harrassing your wife and children, and how? Why would there be trouble with you? Do you exagerrate much, if you think that debating on a forum is not leaving your family at peace? To my knowledge, you are the only one from your family here, and you can leave at any time.

We discuss Lori's blog here, so if you are discussed on her blog, you and your situation may be discussed here. I don't know where you live, or your name, since I doubt your mother named you Cabinet, even if your last name is Mann....

What trouble from this board have you experienced, other than a write up about you on a blog being critiqued? How is discussing what Lori wrote about you, and your comments here and there causing anyone "trouble?"

[polecat]

The kids were always, always safe. I made sure of that. I also did not let them witness anything. And again, this is over half a decade ago. Our kids who are 9 & 7 have never seen what transpired before my wife was fine. If there was the slightest instance of the kids being hurt I would have taken your advice and asked her to leave for good.

I did not lock my wife in a cabin. I told her she either had to leave & get a hotel or sleep in the cabin. Big difference.

I did not isolate my wife from her friends or family. I told her I did not want her seeing a certain group of ladies, one whom was in her first year in couseling school, who were not helping but hurting my wife with their so called wisdom. They did almost as much wrong diagnosing as you all. You are not health professionals, I sought those out, in mass and yet you continue to doubt everything I say. Isolation, is precisely what women with PMDD crave. It is exactly what they need. Google PMMD blogs, read for an hour and then come back and apolagize profusely because you are honestly talking out your asses on this. You have no idea what you are talking about, none, zip...but you act as though you are the authority on it. I have spent hundreds of hours reading on PMDD. I know it in and out. You are seriously clueless and making false claims against me because of it. Your ignorance does not excuse what you are saying about me. Go read and then please apolagize. You all do not know what you are talking about.

The word many, indicates that yes indeed, I knew some people here were christians. If not I would have used the word all. I'm not sure of the point you were trying to make when it does not contridict my point/sentence in the least.

I will certainly apologize for saying that you locked your wife in a cabin -- that was my impression, and clearly it was a wrong one. I am sorry.

At the same time, I find it laughable that you claim I'm ignorant about mental illness when I just told you that my mother was severely mentally ill (and untreated) throughout my entire childhood and until she died. My sister is mentally ill. One of my aunts was mentally ill. I know full well what mental illness is and what it can do to people and their families. I know exactly what PMDD is (as well as PTSD, PPD, PPP, BPD and any number of different diseases and conditions). And I still find your "disciplinary" techniques to be bothersome. They are not what I'd have chosen for my spouse or my children. If a doctor told you to treat your wife that way, then it matters not what I think, does it?

Also, Ken claims Christians aren't allowed to cuss. So you might want to reconsider some of the language that you've used here so that you don't offend him.

[dawbs]

All I ask is you leave us alone. My precious wife and my kids are happy, safe and loved. You don't have to share our religious convictions. You don't have to agree with me. But can you please, I ask, leave us alone? Let my family be at peace please. If you have tolerance like you say, then let that apply to us. We don't want trouble with you. We are real people, with real lives. Will you agree to that please?

How are we NOT leaving you alone? how are we not leaving you at peace?

Did someone on this forum come to your place of work or home?

Did someone on this forum email you?

Did someone on this forum send you a present from your gift registry?

Or is 'not leaving you alone' defined as discussing (on a public forum) the story that you posted publicly on a blog?

So...we're not allowed to talk about what you put out there publicly--that is how you'd define as leaving you alone? :think:

(although, operating under the sneaking suspicion that you're here because Ken told you to be here put me in mind of Mr. Mark Twain...“It takes your enemy and your friend, working together, to hurt you to the heart: the one to slander you and the other to get the news to you.â€...)

[Mecca]

All I ask is you leave us alone. My precious wife and my kids are happy, safe and loved. You don't have to share our religious convictions. You don't have to agree with me. But can you please, I ask, leave us alone? Let my family be at peace please. If you have tolerance like you say, then let that apply to us. We don't want trouble with you. We are real people, with real lives. Will you agree to that please?

I will say to you what I and many others told Ken when he was whinging about the same thing. If you do not want people to comment on your relationship and all the gory details of said relationship, then maybe you should not be putting out the details on the internet for people to see and comment on. People will have an opinion on what you put out there, especially when you are associating with a few controversial bloggers that hold very dangerous, damaging opinions and beliefs.

[polecat]

How are we NOT leaving you alone? how are we not leaving you at peace?

Did someone on this forum come to your place of work or home?

Did someone on this forum email you?

Did someone on this forum send you a present from your gift registry?

Or is 'not leaving you alone' defined as discussing (on a public forum) the story that you posted publicly on a blog?

So...we're not allowed to talk about what you put out there publicly--that is how you'd define as leaving you alone? :think:

(although, operating under the sneaking suspicion that you're here because Ken told you to be here put me in mind of Mr. Mark Twain...“It takes your enemy and your friend, working together, to hurt you to the heart: the one to slander you and the other to get the news to you.â€...)

Someone from the forum almost certainly emailed him, and I'll wager (well, if I were a betting woman) that that someone's name rhymes with Ken.

[SunnyAndrsn]

The doctor told you to lock her up? One would think the doctor would recommend hospitalization if the illness was that severe.

And I'm just going to leave this here:

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-ch ... pping.html

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, neither do I play one online.

If your doctor wanted you to have her committed there are very strict laws in place as to how this can legally happen. In the most general of terms, one has to threaten either harm to self, or harm to others. Your doctor was recommending you have her locked up, your wife stated the following on Lori's blog:

I had planned to actually commit suicide. Yes, seriously, had plans.

How is this not mental illness? The synopsis that you find so troubling paints a picture of you abusing a mentally ill individual. She says she's happy, and you say your happy. The road there appears to be a horror show, with you as the villain, not your wife.

[Curious]

I think that Lori framed the post to make it sound as bad/harsh as possible because that is her style. Her blog is very punitive. So making Cabinetman sound like not much more than a caveman, dragging his woman back to the cave by her hair, probably was exactly the effect Lori was going for.

Having read Cabinetman's responses here, while I think he is correct that there are many things we would not agree on, he has been FAR more reasonable and well spoken than Ken, IMO.

He has not resorted to providing us proof texts or condescending mansplaining and as I mentioned previously, he apologized regarding the feminist quotes. We couldn't even get Ken to address that point at all.

Cabinetman has been asked about discrepancies and rather than turn it back on us and giving some weird non-response that doesn't even make sense, he's tried to answer it with more detail to better explain it (ie: taking the car keys away).

I am not ever going to be a fan of submission for reasons members of this forum all know too well and I think that CM does carry a certain amount of responsibility for not making sure the story was clear to begin with, but I am really beginning to think this is another case of Lori being a horrible writer and not understanding that words have meaning.

What I don't understand is how someone that appears to be intelligent can read Lori's blog and not be rather horrified at some of the things she posts, even if she is the "right" type of Christian.

[SunnyAndrsn]

I will say to you what I and many others told Ken when he was whinging about the same thing. If you do not want people to comment on your relationship and all the gory details of said relationship, then maybe you should not be putting out the details on the internet for people to see and comment on. People will have an opinion on what you put out there, especially when you are associating with a few controversial bloggers that hold very dangerous, damaging opinions and beliefs.

You registered here and posted here. You are right, I absolutely do not share your perversion of Christian beliefs. People like you and Ken are the reason why I, as a Christian, am here. You think you're justified, and say you have the bible to back you up--your version of the bible pushes people away from Christ.

Do you really think Christ is going to judge you based on headship or judge your wife on if she was submissive enough? If that's the case, then you reed to re-read the Gospel and focus on that.