We're Always Learning New Things with Ken Alexander: Part 2

[Curious]

I have a serious question for Cabinetman. Have you ever interacted with a group like this before? One made up largely of self-identified feminists? We do have several men here, as well, btw (I am not sure if they self-identify as feminists, but I would suspect that at least some of them do).

Would you be willing to talk to us about some of the things you think are true about feminists and see if maybe, like those quotes, that not all those things you have thought are true or maybe you have some misconceptions about feminists and feminism?

[Mecca]

You registered here and posted here. You are right, I absolutely do not share your perversion of Christian beliefs. People like you and Ken are the reason why I, as a Christian, am here. You think you're justified, and say you have the bible to back you up--your version of the bible pushes people away from Christ.

Do you really think Christ is going to judge you based on headship or judge your wife on if she was submissive enough? If that's the case, then you reed to re-read the Gospel and focus on that.

I assume this is directed at Cabinetman and not me, correct? The way you replied looks like you are directing this to me and not CB.

[Tesseract]

If your doctor wanted you to have her committed there are very strict laws in place as to how this can legally happen. In the most general of terms, one has to threaten either harm to self, or harm to others. Your doctor was recommending you have her locked up, your wife stated the following on Lori's blog:

How is this not mental illness? The synopsis that you find so troubling paints a picture of you abusing a mentally ill individual. She says she's happy, and you say your happy. The road there appears to be a horror show, with you as the villain, not your wife.

Yes! It sure does. I can not imagine :( FFS, my husband went through some heartbreaking psychiatric complications of a medication he was taking. We didn't know it was the medication, but I'll tell you what I didn't do. I didn't tell him he was in rebellion against our marriage, make him sleep outside of the house, or "punish" him in anyway. I got him to an inpatient facility through his doctor and they spent weeks sorting it out. Meanwhile, I was there holding his hand, loving him and singing to him on the phone when I couldn't physically be there and he was delusional. Just to be clear, I had no idea where it was coming from and an incorrect interpretation could have spelled utter disaster. Good grief - these people.

[Curious]

oh I have one more question for CM.

Do you spank your children (or did you? I think they might be past the age where at least Ken says he recommends spanking now).

If so, what do you think of this article? (this is a Christian blog)

http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/

[Cabinetman]

You all did erase it, but someone here did post my business website and go sniffing for who my wife and I were. Her scrapbooking blog and my business website took a huge spike in hits those days my wife says. As I admitted freely, I know there are those on my wise who are willing to hurt others. There are on yours also if you are honest with yourself. How do I know if there is someone here that is like that? How do I know people who will go searching for where I live and put on your website how they should out me to my clients are not willing to hurt me and my family?

If someone was calling you an abuser openly all day long would you be okay with that? For many of you that are women, imagine if someone was suggesting openly that you were a child abuser?

You guys are discussing the inmost delicate part of our lives, many of you flippantly/snarkily. If I had to do it over again, I would not post it. But I can't do that. But I can, and have told you what was going on. I have been honest and open. I took the people here at their word, even apolagizing when misquoting/mischarachterizing people but the same courtesy is not being provided to me. I have continually been called a liar, with no proof to the contrary. My wife has backed my words. We are not going to open medical records. Every single time one of you brings up an issue, I address it honestly. From car keys to cabin but the overall perception of me has not changed of me.

I am told our religious views wouldn't be looked down upon, "because many of you are christians" but am told continually I am an abuser because we believe in headship and submission. Something we both believe and does no harm to you. I have told you and my wife will back it that while I am considered the "authority" in the home, I love her more than myself and try in words and deed everyday to show that. You say you are tolerant, but than don't show tolerance. You say our beliefs are not held against us, but they are.

You say being a man won't be held against me, but then when your own members admit a bias against men (kate & john) in the media and I say the same thing, someone tells me I have an inferiority complex.

If you don't want to live the way we live I think that is fine! But please stop making accusations against me. You do not view them as harmful because you are not on the receiving end of them. Just let us be, please, that is all I ask.

[latraviata]

The kids were always, always safe. I made sure of that. I also did not let them witness anything. And again, this is over half a decade ago. Our kids who are 9 & 7 have never seen what transpired before my wife was fine. If there was the slightest instance of the kids being hurt I would have taken your advice and asked her to leave for good.

I did not lock my wife in a cabin. I told her she either had to leave & get a hotel or sleep in the cabin. Big difference.

I did not isolate my wife from her friends or family. I told her I did not want her seeing a certain group of ladies, one whom was in her first year in couseling school, who were not helping but hurting my wife with their so called wisdom. They did almost as much wrong diagnosing as you all. You are not health professionals, I sought those out, in mass and yet you continue to doubt everything I say. Isolation, is precisely what women with PMDD crave. It is exactly what they need. Google PMMD blogs, read for an hour and then come back and apolagize profusely because you are honestly talking out your asses on this. You have no idea what you are talking about, none, zip...but you act as though you are the authority on it. I have spent hundreds of hours reading on PMDD. I know it in and out. You are seriously clueless and making false claims against me because of it. Your ignorance does not excuse what you are saying about me. Go read and then please apolagize. You all do not know what you are talking about.

The word many, indicates that yes indeed, I knew some people here were christians. If not I would have used the word all. I'm not sure of the point you were trying to make when it does not contridict my point/sentence in the least.

Yes I am and there are many more here on FJ.

[SunnyAndrsn]

Interesting. He'll share how he needed to discipline his wife, how she was rebellious, how she needed boundaries, etc. He says the things she did were so terrible that he would've gotten full custody, for sure.

But he won't even tell us one thing that she did to deserve these labels. Not even one thing. What did she do that was "out of control"? What does he mean by "rebellious"?

When a man can't give details, and just uses vague derogatory terms, I think that is very suspicious. Of course, he's doing it to "protect his wife." Yup, otherwise he'd be happy to share.

I suspect she dared to be insistent and disagree with him.

I disagree. He & his wife both shared enough information that she was suffering from mental illness. She states she was suicidal and had a plan. I had planned to actually commit suicide. Yes, seriously, had plans.

PMDD, has both a physical and mental component. I know several people who have suffered from this, and it's not easy to overcome. They talk about using a homeopathic MD--one who combines both traditional and non-traditional techniques. Nutrition and exercise are well-known to alleviate symptoms of PMDD, as well as depression and anxiety.

I'm beginning to agree with Curious. Lori's presentation of their history was very, very messy, and set up specifically to focus on rebellion instead of the true issue of PMDD. I don't think CM did a very good job of clarifying here, at least not initially, but he's not nearly as frustrating as Ken. I do continue to be suspicious of him and the tactics he did admit to using--mainly the discipline of a grown adult.

[SunnyAndrsn]

I assume this is directed at Cabinetman and not me, correct? The way you replied looks like you are directing this to me and not CB.

Sorry, yes it was towards The Cabinet

[polecat]

You guys are discussing the inmost delicate part of our lives, many of you flippantly/snarkily. If I had to do it over again, I would not post it. But I can't do that. But I can, and have told you what was going on. I have been honest and open. I took the people here at their word,even apolagizing when misquoting/mischarachterizing people but the same courtesy is not being provided to me. I have continually been called a liar, with no proof to the contrary. My wife has backed my words. We are not going to open medical records. Every single time one of you brings up an issue, I address it honestly. From car keys to cabin but the overall perception of me has not changed of me.

Since I strongly suspect that this is directed at me, I most certainly did apologize for my misunderstanding. You evidently missed it.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21356&start=260#p712703

I will certainly apologize for saying that you locked your wife in a cabin -- that was my impression, and clearly it was a wrong one. I am sorry.

[Curious]

You all did erase it, but someone here did post my business website and go sniffing for who my wife and I were. Her scrapbooking blog and my business website took a huge spike in hits those days my wife says. As I admitted freely, I know there are those on my wise who are willing to hurt others. There are on yours also if you are honest with yourself. How do I know if there is someone here that is like that? How do I know people who will go searching for where I live and put on your website how they should out me to my clients are not willing to hurt me and my family?

We have rules about what types of personal information can be posted on the forum. While a facebook profile that may be your wife's was posted, it was viewable by the public and had no identifying personal information on it (ie: no last name or address etc). There was also no actual proof that it was your wife's fb (to my knowledge at least). I don't think it went much of anywhere in terms of people trying to figure out who you are, though.

I will say that the people that eventually figured out your business address, figured it out based on the information on Lori's blog. So once again, your beef needs to be with Lori providing enough information that someone could figure out your identify, IMO.

[dawbs]

You all did erase it, but someone here did post my business website and go sniffing for who my wife and I were. Her scrapbooking blog and my business website took a huge spike in hits those days my wife says. As I admitted freely, I know there are those on my wise who are willing to hurt others. There are on yours also if you are honest with yourself. How do I know if there is someone here that is like that? How do I know people who will go searching for where I live and put on your website how they should out me to my clients are not willing to hurt me and my family?*snip*.

So...you're persecuted because people googled you?

(and as far as personal information being posted, we don't allow that at FJ, and, yes, it would be taken down if it were posted. Other than that, there's not much censorship here--and we can hardly censor all of the internet, so, yes what you said that's attached to your name could very easily be outed elsewhere. As others have mentioned, you've left enough of a breadcrumb trail on Lori's blog that if you don't want your name attached to those words, you might want to take that up w/ her.)

Maybe we're just speaking slightly different languages.

When you say you want us to leave you alone, what does that mean to you?

That we quit talking about/to you?

Because...no. That's not likely to happen. You don't get to dictate the conversations of others, even when you don't like those conversations

It's especially unlikely that the discussion would stop when dangerous information (I'm not entirely sure that what you've 'clarified' has made much of a difference, but, since it wasn't a group reading-comprehension fail, I think it's fair to say that the KenAndLori characterization of your treatment of your wife was/is dangerous information/misinformation) is being disseminated as a how-to that is recommended to be enacted toward vulnerable groups (like Lori's mentees).

[Curious]

You say being a man won't be held against me, but then when your own members admit a bias against men (kate & john) in the media and I say the same thing, someone tells me I have an inferiority complex.

I was actually using that as an example of when members of this forum have been "pro-man." Perhaps I wasn't clear in my meaning. You said something about how women don't think women can be abusive (paraphrasing) and I was using that as an example to show that many of us have spoken out about Kate being abusive to Jon.

[2xx1xy1JD]

This is not quite the same situation, but many of us here have said that if Jon Gosselin treated Kate like SHE treated him that there would have been many people saying that he was being abusive toward her.

I am one of those people. She HIT Emeril with a freaking wooden spoon (twice!). If a man did that to a woman, on tv, no less, there would have been a freaking national outcry.

She absolutely was abusive to him and there is plenty of footage that proves it.

I've been fairly vocal about pointing out where double standards exist. I'm not saying that nobody looks at situations differently, depending on whether it is a man or woman involved. I'm saying the idea that there is some sort of blanket immunity, where nobody will ever allow action to be taken where a woman is abusive or dangerous, isn't true. I don't follow celebrity stuff, but Kate was called a monster on numerous magazine covers.

Does more need to be done to recognize all forms of domestic violence, and to assess risk accurately without gender bias? Yes.

That's not what Cabinetman or Ken or Lori are saying. The are reinforcing gender stereotypes, not fighting against them. They are not looking at actual laws and programs, and making sure that they work to protect everyone. Instead, they are trying to fight against these laws and programs. They are not encouraging men in these crisis situations to get help. They are painting Cabinetman as a hero for engaging in potentially dangerous self-help. A man in a dangerous situation with his wife may need to separate and take custody of the children. Ken and Lori put down men who are full-time dads, put down daycare, and have said repeatedly it is mothers who are suited to care for children.

[usmcmom]

I'm sorry, but this whole thing with Cabinet Man has turned me into a petulant ten-year-old.

*Stomping foot and pointing at Lori* -- "SHE STARTED IT!"

I know. I know. Someone needs to spank me harder. :pull-hair:

[docmom]

Cabinetman:

They did almost as much wrong diagnosing as you all. You are not health professionals

Actually, quite a few of us are. However, I take your point, and share it, that diagnosing over the internet, especially in cases where the facts are poorly presented or obfuscated is not a good idea. I have no idea what's wrong with your wife. I cannot, and will not, offer any treatment ideas. What I will say is that having the types of "discipline" described by Lori in her blog (apparently out of context) held up as examples of the "godly" way to treat "rebelious" women is deeply disturbing. If what you say is true about seeking medical help and working with doctors and therapists to treat your wife who had a mental health issue (no specifics required), I think it would be a great idea to have Lori write a post noting this so that women and men in other difficult relationships don't take this advice the wrong way.

[Pam]

All I ask is you leave us alone. My precious wife and my kids are happy, safe and loved. You don't have to share our religious convictions. You don't have to agree with me. But can you please, I ask, leave us alone? Let my family be at peace please. If you have tolerance like you say, then let that apply to us. We don't want trouble with you. We are real people, with real lives. Will you agree to that please?

Yet it is women, en masse, that are considered to be overly emotional, hysterical, and make mountains out of molehills.

[latraviata]

Cabinetman:

Actually, quite a few of us are. However, I take your point, and share it, that diagnosing over the internet, especially in cases where the facts are poorly presented or obfuscated is not a good idea. I have no idea what's wrong with your wife. I cannot, and will not, offer any treatment ideas. What I will say is that having the types of "discipline" described by Lori in her blog (apparently out of context) held up as examples of the "godly" way to treat "rebelious" women is deeply disturbing. If what you say is true about seeking medical help and working with doctors and therapists to treat your wife who had a mental health issue (no specifics required), I think it would be a great idea to have Lori write a post noting this so that women and men in other difficult relationships don't take this advice the wrong way.

I am totally with you on this!

[OkToBeTakei]

You all did erase it, but someone here did post my business website and go sniffing for who my wife and I were. Her scrapbooking blog and my business website took a huge spike in hits those days my wife says. As I admitted freely, I know there are those on my wise who are willing to hurt others. There are on yours also if you are honest with yourself. How do I know if there is someone here that is like that? How do I know people who will go searching for where I live and put on your website how they should out me to my clients are not willing to hurt me and my family?

If someone was calling you an abuser openly all day long would you be okay with that? For many of you that are women, imagine if someone was suggesting openly that you were a child abuser?

You guys are discussing the inmost delicate part of our lives, many of you flippantly/snarkily. If I had to do it over again, I would not post it. But I can't do that. But I can, and have told you what was going on. I have been honest and open. I took the people here at their word, even apolagizing when misquoting/mischarachterizing people but the same courtesy is not being provided to me. I have continually been called a liar, with no proof to the contrary. My wife has backed my words. We are not going to open medical records. Every single time one of you brings up an issue, I address it honestly. From car keys to cabin but the overall perception of me has not changed of me.

I am told our religious views wouldn't be looked down upon, "because many of you are christians" but am told continually I am an abuser because we believe in headship and submission. Something we both believe and does no harm to you. I have told you and my wife will back it that while I am considered the "authority" in the home, I love her more than myself and try in words and deed everyday to show that. You say you are tolerant, but than don't show tolerance. You say our beliefs are not held against us, but they are.

You say being a man won't be held against me, but then when your own members admit a bias against men (kate & john) in the media and I say the same thing, someone tells me I have an inferiority complex.

If you don't want to live the way we live I think that is fine! But please stop making accusations against me. You do not view them as harmful because you are not on the receiving end of them. Just let us be, please, that is all I ask.

I'm totally confused now.

We are discussing a story written on a blog. Your story so it would appear. You are wise enough unlike Ken and Lori to not use your real name thus protecting your privacy and as far as I am aware nobody has posted your actual name if they know it. I don't know it and have no interest in knowing it.

I will ask again. Did Ken point you in this direction? I think if he did he is stirring a pot for his own ends. Sure your comments on that blog have looked misogynistic wether this is through the lens of Lori using your words or your actual beliefs is debatable. You do appear to at least try and explain in English the way in which you feel your words and story have been misrepresented.

Other than that the only thing folks here are doing is commenting on a public story from a public blog. No persecution or personal hurt. That was all in Ken's mind because he did not like his own words being quoted to him. He made no attempt to converse at all.

I find your timing in coming here highly suspicious and hope you are not being manipulated for another's needs.

[OkToBeTakei]

I am totally with you on this!

Actually I am a health professional. Mental health professional. The one thing ethically and professionally I cannot and would not do is give out any type of advice online. It's those that do you need to worry about. Let's not even start on the type of self serving advice Lori doles out.

[littlemommy]

Wow, I always thought Cabinetman was the hero alter-ego from some Ken fanfic. I really did.

People here kept trying to tell Ken that words have meaning. Well, actions have consequences. You let internet strangers interpret your life story and discuss it online. And by internet strangers I mean Lori and Ken.

[Tesseract]

Assuming everything CM said is 100% true (just go with me for a sec), wouldn't he be outraged and mortified at the way he was portrayed on Loris's blog? Not that his story all adds up to me, but, I'd want some immediate clarification put on her he blog and would distance myself from them so darn fast. Cease and desist?

CM, and all of his very risky actions toward his wife, are being held up as a model for a trew godly husband. This along with their other blanket advise to submit more, pin her to the wall, spank harder... It is a recipe for disaster, and I just wish they could be held accountable for the inevitable.

[Curious]

I would ask CM to go read Lori's post again from the view of someone that does NOT know anything, but what is being told to them in the post itself.

Reading it without any of the further detail he has given us is truly frightening and this is the way that people coming to Lori's blog are going to see it. They will not have all the additional information that we have been given. As it's written, it's basically a How To Guide for an abusive man :(

There is NO mention of any kind of medical professional(s) being involved

There is NO mention of any kind of actual diagnosis

There is NO mention of any kind of actual dangerous behavior on the part of your wife. Just that she is "in rebellion" and from reading Lori's blog that can mean anything from she is refusing to have sex with you, to she doesn't want you playing basketball as much, to she wants help with the kids, to she just wants her way one something.

There is NO differentiation between taking the car keys away as a safety issue vs as a "punishment" for her being "in rebellion"

There is NO discussion about her not actually being locked in the cabin

In short, Lori's blog post makes it sound like you decided that your wife was being uppity and you decided to solve the problem by locking her in your cabin, taking away her keys and money, isolating her from her friends and family and forcing her to clean the house as a punishment.

Much like most of Lori's posts, it paints you (the man) in a pretty shitty light. It makes you look like an abuser and it makes it look like not only Ken and Lori, but you advocate for men to just take matters into their own hands when they decide that their wives are "in rebellion." This is a perfect storm for an abuser :(

[2xx1xy1JD]

The kids were always, always safe. I made sure of that. I also did not let them witness anything. And again, this is over half a decade ago. Our kids who are 9 & 7 have never seen what transpired before my wife was fine. If there was the slightest instance of the kids being hurt I would have taken your advice and asked her to leave for good.

I did not lock my wife in a cabin. I told her she either had to leave & get a hotel or sleep in the cabin. Big difference.

I did not isolate my wife from her friends or family. I told her I did not want her seeing a certain group of ladies, one whom was in her first year in couseling school, who were not helping but hurting my wife with their so called wisdom. They did almost as much wrong diagnosing as you all. You are not health professionals, I sought those out, in mass and yet you continue to doubt everything I say. Isolation, is precisely what women with PMDD crave. It is exactly what they need. Google PMMD blogs, read for an hour and then come back and apolagize profusely because you are honestly talking out your asses on this. You have no idea what you are talking about, none, zip...but you act as though you are the authority on it. I have spent hundreds of hours reading on PMDD. I know it in and out. You are seriously clueless and making false claims against me because of it. Your ignorance does not excuse what you are saying about me. Go read and then please apolagize. You all do not know what you are talking about.

The word many, indicates that yes indeed, I knew some people here were christians. If not I would have used the word all. I'm not sure of the point you were trying to make when it does not contridict my point/sentence in the least.

Yes, Lori's post where she strung together excerpts from your emails may have been unfair. That's your issue with Lori.

I don't think that Lori did it by accident. She took one extreme statement after another, and gave no surrounding context. She pretty much wanted people to see this as an abusive situation, so she could say, "see, submission and leadership led to a happy ending." The whole "actually medical issue causing symptoms of a serious mood disorder was finally addressed" part was left out. We are not mind-readers.

I won't say that I'm an expert on PMDD specifically. I'm not here to give treatment advice. I have been pretty consistent in saying that real problems need real professionals getting involved. The way that elements of your story were cherry-picked by Ken and Lori to support this idea that husbands should be "disciplining" rebellious wives subjected that husbands should take it upon themselves to escalate conflict with wives who may have mood disorders, and I stand by my statement that this is potentially very dangerous advice.

********************************************************************************************

No, I don't think Ken and Cabinetman sound alike. Different writing styles, different spelling and grammar errors, slightly different issues. Ken blows up minor stuff into "she's rebellious". Cabinetman takes truly serious shit, downplays it and twists it into "she's rebellious". CM also doesn't try to pretend he's smart by throwing random big words together.

[Rescinded and Mended]

You all did erase it, but someone here did post my business website and go sniffing for who my wife and I were. Her scrapbooking blog and my business website took a huge spike in hits those days my wife says. As I admitted freely, I know there are those on my wise who are willing to hurt others. There are on yours also if you are honest with yourself. How do I know if there is someone here that is like that? How do I know people who will go searching for where I live and put on your website how they should out me to my clients are not willing to hurt me and my family?

If someone was calling you an abuser openly all day long would you be okay with that? For many of you that are women, imagine if someone was suggesting openly that you were a child abuser?

You guys are discussing the inmost delicate part of our lives, many of you flippantly/snarkily. If I had to do it over again, I would not post it. But I can't do that. But I can, and have told you what was going on. I have been honest and open. I took the people here at their word, even apolagizing when misquoting/mischarachterizing people but the same courtesy is not being provided to me. I have continually been called a liar, with no proof to the contrary. My wife has backed my words. We are not going to open medical records. Every single time one of you brings up an issue, I address it honestly. From car keys to cabin but the overall perception of me has not changed of me.

I am told our religious views wouldn't be looked down upon, "because many of you are christians" but am told continually I am an abuser because we believe in headship and submission. Something we both believe and does no harm to you. I have told you and my wife will back it that while I am considered the "authority" in the home, I love her more than myself and try in words and deed everyday to show that. You say you are tolerant, but than don't show tolerance. You say our beliefs are not held against us, but they are.

You say being a man won't be held against me, but then when your own members admit a bias against men (kate & john) in the media and I say the same thing, someone tells me I have an inferiority complex.

If you don't want to live the way we live I think that is fine! But please stop making accusations against me. You do not view them as harmful because you are not on the receiving end of them. Just let us be, please, that is all I ask.

I think you're referring to me. And I never said a word about John and Kate Gosselin in my post. For the record, I think Kate is a perfect jackass, and I don't think John's behavior is much better at times.

I suggested the potential for an inferiority complex because you stated quite clearly in your post, the one I quoted up the page from Lori's blog, that you have a problem with women being elevated in any manner, either in the church or the media, and even fictitiously, such as in the case of pretty much every Disney heroine, ever. You stated that highlighting any woman's virtues that involve caring for her home, family and spirituality somehow made her look "superior" to men, and that this was toxic to you, men, and the Biblical ideal of submission.

Again, HOW? If a woman is competent in how she conducts her life, how does this threaten you in any way? Why do women need to be suppressed, according to you?

I don't know if you're planning on actually addressing this or not, but the fact that you've directly stated this in your original post indicates to me that you feel threatened by women in general. And this isn't me mischaracterizing you in any way, these are your words. If this is truly how you feel, then it doesn't give a whole lot of credibility to your defense of "I was just protecting my wife for her own good." It makes you look like a misogynist who could potentially use your problems with your wife as a way to act out against her in a manner that is not in her best interests.

Curious has just lauded you for your reading comprehension skills - do try to keep up.

[ShesCrafty]

Assuming everything CM said is 100% true (just go with me for a sec), wouldn't he be outraged and mortified at the way he was portrayed on Loris's blog? Not that his story all adds up to me, but, I'd want some immediate clarification put on her he blog and would distance myself from them so darn fast. Cease and desist?

CM, and all of his very risky actions toward his wife, are being held up as a model for a trew godly husband. This along with their other blanket advise to submit more, pin her to the wall, spank harder... It is a recipe for disaster, and I just wish they could be held accountable for the inevitable.

This is what I don't get. CM didn't seem to have any objection to the way he was portrayed on Lori's blog until someone *cough* Ken Alexander *cough* pointed him in the direction of FJ. Then out comes that his wife was diagnosed professionally and his treatment of her was all under the care of a doctor. I'm not buying it.