We're Always Learning New Things with Ken Alexander: Part 2

[Cabinetman]

polecat,

Yes you did apolagize, and I didn't miss it. But it was not aimed at you. But, thank you very much I really appreciated your honesty and integrity. I am still being called an abuser, no matter what my wife says. I've explained away every single "abusive" thing people have said was abusive, said it was recommended, ok'd or suggested by professionals. It's still being reported that it was potentially dangerous self-help when I have said more times than I can count there were doctors and a counselor involved, not to mention family. I'm told what PMDD conditions are and that many women know all about it, simply because they are feminist women. I call BS. Most of the doctors didn't know all about it. You certainly don't know all about it because the classic thing is for women to isolate from the world/stresses/etc. It's like the #1 thing, by far, and yet I am told I am abusing my wife for being willing to do the extra work involved in keeping her life low key. Unless you are a doctor of "female issues", a family doctor who has seen a women like this or very close to a woman who has had this you don't know 1% of what I know about PMDD. I know more about PMDD then most general practioners, so I highly doubt you know what I am talking about.

Again, I said this from the first. Some of you will hate me because of my beliefs and because of that no matter what I say you will not believe me. But please be honest enough to just admit that. You don't have to call me names. Just say I think your beliefs are the problem. But then don't call yourself tolerant. Don't tell me I'll be accepted/judged not based on my beliefs. Leave the hate to "why" and not the person.

I am not asking you to stop talking about me. Say you don't think the approach was best. Say you don't like our beliefs. But you don't have to say damaging things about me.

No matter the breadcrumbs that were left or not, somebody has to follow them. That takes intent and time. If who we are is not important than why go looking for us. If we are just Cabinetman and his wife out in the internet that you disagree with than why does someone go looking for my name and address? That does not make sense. I can disagree with you vehemently, but the minute I start searching for you, that goes beyond disagreeing with you. There are lots of people I might disagree with, but the minute I go looking for their home and business that is beyond creepy. Would you not feel creepy and worried?

No offense, but we are the minority now. The government views us like it did women 200 years ago. We are the freaks. How would you feel if the safety and integrity of your family was judged by the fundies you make fun and critize? Make fun of me. Criticize my beliefs. But leave it as vague "people" on the internet. Don't come looking for me. Don't make my family feel threatened, and yes, my wife and I certainly feel threatened by the talk and those looking for us.

[Savoring Samsara]

If you and your family feel unsafe, Cabinetman, I would strongly suggest that you ask Ken and Lori to remove the posts and comments regarding your family situation from her blog. If the parts of your story that she shared can so easily be taken out of context and misinterpreted, doing what you can to remove the "breadcrumbs" you are concerned about people following may be a wise step to take.

[Cabinetman]

I certainly did a lot of clarifying in the posts, and for those of you who were saying we did not you are wrong and not reading it. Did you read all three posts and 500+ comments. If you didn't, please do not make accusations without doing your homework. I have said relentlessly it was a story poorly communicated. I have apolagized. I can't fix it at this time. My story has not changed and you are lying about me if you say that. It was communicated poorly, but the story has not changed.

Would you all feel better if I asked Lori to remove it? Would that satisfy you?

The only thing Ken had told me was back in feb some people where speaking about us so I came and read here. I am not here for Ken & Lori. I have some things I agree with them on and some things I disagree with them (for example, spanking with an object, belt/strap/etc. or harder). They can stand on there own words and actions. I'm not here being their advocate.

I am here because you freaked the hell out of my wife and I. We admit it was a poorly communicated story, in which I have apolagized for. I have clarified any details to the best of my ability. We have admitted we are the exception/the extreme. But everyone is safe and happy now.

All I ask is I don't have people come looking for me or bothering us. that is my one and only request, is it reasonable and will FJ members agree to that?

[usmcmom]

No, Cabinet Man, many of us don't claim to know about PMDD because we are "feminist women," but because we are women who have dealt with it. Is it so hard for you to believe that some of us may have the same knowledge and experience as you and your family?

It seems to me that many of us are trying to carefully read your words and give you the benefit of the doubt - agreeing that much of the misunderstanding is because the story was originally poorly communicated. Now that you are clarifying things, we are willing to consider a different scenario. But you seem to be opposed to going to the source of the problem - Lori's blog.

When someone tells me that another person has spoken badly of me, I ask myself two questions: 1) Why is somebody speaking badly of me and 2) Why does my "friend" feel the need to tell me about it? I for one would like to know if you are re-examining your relationship with Ken and Lori in light of all this.

[Tesseract]

CM,

That's the problem. Do you think all of Lori's readers are going to sort through 3 posts and 500 comments etc... to find context or will they take her telling of your story at face value. I can't believe you are not putting your time into getting your rmischaracterized story off her her blog than you are begging a group of people who care less who you are to leave you alone.

Edited to remove unclear sentence.

[Savoring Samsara]

Would you all feel better if I asked Lori to remove it? Would that satisfy you?

It's not a question of what will "satisfy" anyone. I don't care what Lori does or writes on her blog, and I don't typically read it because it's not relevant to my lifestyle. I offered my suggestion as a simple way to help set your family's minds at ease, nothing more.

All I ask is I don't have people come looking for me or bothering us. that is my one and only request, is it reasonable and will FJ members agree to that?

Speaking for myself at least, I have no desire to find out and disseminate your real name or the names of your family members, come to your home or business to hassle or debate with you, or have any contact at all with you offline. I suspect that most if not all FJ members feel the same. If that is what you define as "looking for" or or "bothering," yes, that is more than reasonable. However, if your definition of "looking for" or "bothering" involves running Google searches, viewing publicly accessible information on the internet, or discussing speech that has been shared in a public forum, we are probably not defining our terms in the same way.

[OkToBeTakei]

I certainly did a lot of clarifying in the posts, and for those of you who were saying we did not you are wrong and not reading it. Did you read all three posts and 500+ comments. If you didn't, please do not make accusations without doing your homework. I have said relentlessly it was a story poorly communicated. I have apolagized. I can't fix it at this time. My story has not changed and you are lying about me if you say that. It was communicated poorly, but the story has not changed.

Would you all feel better if I asked Lori to remove it? Would that satisfy you?

The only thing Ken had told me was back in feb some people where speaking about us so I came and read here. I am not here for Ken & Lori. I have some things I agree with them on and some things I disagree with them (for example, spanking with an object, belt/strap/etc. or harder). They can stand on there own words and actions. I'm not here being their advocate.

I am here because you freaked the hell out of my wife and I. We admit it was a poorly communicated story, in which I have apolagized for. I have clarified any details to the best of my ability. We have admitted we are the exception/the extreme. But everyone is safe and happy now.

All I ask is I don't have people come looking for me or bothering us. that is my one and only request, is it reasonable and will FJ members agree to that?

What on earth makes you think anybody is coming to look for you? I will agree to that. I live in Scotland :lol: As for commenting on public blogs via this forum? no, sorry you put your story out there in public, it looked like a strange tale of submission/abuse. You are saying it is not. Fair enough. I will continue to comment on anything in the public domain I feel like.

I am going to assume that what you ACTUALLY mean is stop talking about you. Should maybe have given more thought to what and where you post. Also your motivation behind it. I imagine it all looked great when everybody agreed with you. Disagreeing is not persecution or harming, it is what it is. Ken could not grasp that either. Maybe cos we is wimminz?

[dawbs]

"we" can't agree to that because there is no "we". There is no person here who can speak for everyone. We can each speak for ourselves, but I doubt everyone is going to weigh in.

I could agree to not google you--but what does that get you? That gets you that I, dawbs, an unknown entity on the faceless internet, says she won't google you. But that doesn't mean that all gazillion members and quadrillion lurkers (

And that doesn't mean that if, next week, Lori posts something scandalous about you, that I'd consider that binding.

It would be rather like me walking into the coffee shop in town, seeing people discussing the local police blotter (which is a hilarious read, generally speaking. Sometimes tractors cause traffic jams), and begging those people not to google the details about the guy who called the cops because he thought someone was aiming a weapon at him (it turned out to be a kid w/ a laser pointer, after kid's mom was in bed)...Not only is there [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect]Streisand effect[/link] (which is such a reality. I had no urge to look up info last week), there's also the impossibility of keeping secret that which has already been published and made public.

And those 3 people in the coffee shop agreeing not to discuss the blotter means nothing, other than that those 3 people aren't discussing it. considering there may be 20 people in the shop, it's obvious their agreeing won't keep the next 3 people who come in from discussing it--in fact, it increases the odds that the 5 guys at the next booth start discussing it when they hadn't noticed it before.

[Mecca]

I am confused. If your story has been misrepresented, why not go to the source of the misrepresentation? We can only go on what is being presented to us. If you refuse to hold the actual offenders responsible, what do you expect us to do?

With friends like Lori and Ken, who needs enemies.

[OkToBeTakei]

Just an aside to my fellow posters and not a question to Cupboardbloke.

WHAT on earth are these people so frightened of? They feel fine and dandy opining on a public blog about their lives, their beliefs, then the minute they find out that some people disagree, they start crapping their pants that their work or life will be affected. Naive? a little headiness at two minutes of internet fame on a blog. Getting to feel like an expert for one day? Very strange. Ken went on at length about how he imagined OUR real lives would be affected by posting on FJ. I don't get it. I am here, who I am in real life. Sure I remove my filter to debate, social niceties and life dictates you don't talk about abortion, spanking and gay marriage whilst in the supermarket, opticians (yes I was there today, ASK me about my awesome Pradas :lol: ) I have these discussions at times, just not as freely and often as I do here. It's good to debate and nobody in my life would be in any way shocked, surprised or horrified. Probably glad I do it here so as to concentrate on being sociable in social situations.

Also I fully expect most people I know IF they found out I advocated hitting a child with a leather strap to quite happily tell me to live with being called a monster by some.

So what are they so bloody frightened about?

Yes. Grammar. I know. I'm manure.

[Tesseract]

No offense, but we are the minority now. The government views us like it did women 200 years ago. We are the freaks.

This is interesting. So, you are upset that in this day and age the government marginalizes you as they did women 200 years ago. You are saying that it is wrong. But, you want women, in this day and age, to behave as those very marginalized women from 2000 years ago. Wow.

[usmcmom]

This is all very fascinating to me. We have Ken and Lori holding Cabinet Man up as some sort of hero on submission. Then Ken tells Cabinet Man that we are talking about him so Cabinet Man comes over here to check things out and set us straight; only to realize that maybe - just maybe - Ken and Lori have been mischaracterizing him. So now I have to wonder who's more disappointed - Ken because Cabinet Man didn't go along with his charade and is actually trying to speak for himself; or Cabinet Man because Ken and Lori have thrown him to the (feminist) wolves. Now, will they all band together in one big mischaracterized brotherhood? Or will we see one hold the other accountable? It's riveting. :popcorn2:

[FJismyheadship]

Is someone contacting you? By phone, by email, whatever? Are they giving you reason to believe they will come and hurt you? Or is it just this website talking about you? If someone is stalking and harassing you in REAL life and making you feel unsafe, you need to go to the authorities.

[Cabinetman]

I have asked Lori to remove the stories. That is the best I can do.

As far as re-examining our relationship with the Alexanders:

I believe in a lot of what they teach.

I disagree with some of what they teach.

What we do going forward, we will do with much prayer and make sure we communicate much more effectively and not let people fill in the gaps with their imaginations.

As far as internet searches, look for Cabinetman. Read what I wrote. Read what my wife wrote but seriously is there a public document that you need to be viewing with our names and address on it. I wouldn't do that to a single person here why would you feel the need to do it to me? Is reading about our "real" life necessary. Our views are out there. I have clarified them the best I know how here. What I believe is as clear here as on any other site on the internet. If you want to attack what I believe, you don't have to have my name and address.

Some of you keep asking, why would you think we are coming looking for you? Because you did. Someone even asked if we should "out" them. Combine that with the names I've been called and the accusation made and 2+2 usually equals 4, not always but usually. And it's scary. You ask why? What if holding your beliefs Ken & Lori got to decide if you got to keep your kids or not, or whether you go to jail or not. How would you feel about them being the judge and jury on your family. It's not laughable. I told you my liberal/feminist mother works in the social services. I know the bias against christian families and to men labeled abusive and it's real. We have had friends loose their kid for year for abuse. They were great (non spanking parents), the baby had had a broken bone that happened during birth. They had to hire a CSI guy to prove it was not an injury they inflicted. A year without their child and 50k later they were proven innocent. Your hear everyday here in America now that teaching kids creationism is child abuse. Same with homeschooling. Folks, whether you know it or not folks on your end are no more tolerant than folks on my end. And they do just as much damage to folks that disagree with them. We live in a world now where winning about ideology is more important than the truth or the people involved. As a christian man in a liberal world I am guilty until proven innocent and what happens to my family in the meantime?

[Mecca]

That is a good question, Ok. It has me wondering what has really been said to CM behind the scenes. If the problem stems from Lori presenting CB's story inaccurately, he needs to take it up with her.

[formergothardite]

I certainly did a lot of clarifying in the posts, and for those of you who were saying we did not you are wrong and not reading it. Did you read all three posts and 500+ comments. If you didn't, please do not make accusations without doing your homework. I have said relentlessly it was a story poorly communicated. I have apolagized. I can't fix it at this time. My story has not changed and you are lying about me if you say that. It was communicated poorly, but the story has not changed.

Lori didn't let people know that this was one of three parts about you. She did not update the blog to clarify when the comments showed that clarifying was needed. She did none of the things a good, wise blogger is supposed to do. When I see there are lots of comments, I don't read them. Lori, if she was any sort of blogger would have known this is pretty common behavior and updated with a clarification. She would have also let readers know before reading the post that they needed to get the backstory from three other post.

She presented did not present your story as the story of a husband who sought the help of doctors and therapists to treat his wife's mental illness. She presented this a husband who on his own, without the advice of anyone, isolated his "rebellious" wife. With Lori, "rebellious" can be a woman having an opinion that differed from the husband.

Lori is the one you should be upset with. She presented your story in a way that made you look like a controlling abuser, she didn't let readers know that there were more parts to the story, and she didn't update to clarify when the comment section showed that clarification was needed.

This is yet another example of why, despite all Ken's claims, Lori does not have the wisdom or discernment to run an advice blog.

[salex]

No offense, but we are the minority now.

We who? Married couples with kids? Christians? White Males (I'm assuming race here, but don't know? Fundie Christians with no dishwasher? What kind of persecution complex are you nursing to consider yourself a minority.

The government views us like it did women 200 years ago.

What government? Are you saying that you are not allowed to own property? Not allowed to vote, work for wages that you control instead of some headship owning. You are not allowed to inherit property? Please give details about what specific prohibitive/discriminatory laws that applied to women 200 years ago apply to you today.

We are the freaks. How would you feel if the safety and integrity of your family was judged by the fundies you make fun and critize?

Do you think they aren't? I am a feminist in that I believe women should have equal rights and opportunity under the law, be educated, work, own property or busiensses and vote. Yet working women and feminists are blamed for everything from "the destruction of western civilization (to paraphrase Ken) to hurricanes, to paraphrase Pat Robertson. Really? A woman being an software trainer or a marketing manager or an English professor or an accountant did all that? Have you not heard the disdain many fundies lay at the feet of working mothers? Are not those women being blamed for the lack of integrity and safety of their families that is assumed by the fundies we critique? That women shouldn't vote, or that their husbands should fill out their absentee ballots for them... come on, do you think women in genearl and we here at FJ aren't judged by fundies on a consistent basis, as a group and individually? How are you any more freakish than anyone else? Let your freak flag fly, dude.

Make fun of me.

OK. You're ugly and your mother dresses you funny... how was that?

:dance:

Criticize my beliefs. But leave it as vague "people" on the internet. Don't come looking for me. Don't make my family feel threatened, and yes, my wife and I certainly feel threatened by the talk and those looking for us.

Dude...use a bit of your vast psychological insight and experience and conisider if you are being a bit paranoid to be threatened by the talk. Ken and Lori use their real names. You don't. who cares who you are, much less who your wife and kids are. You don't blog. You were a blip on other people's blog(s) Any of you offensive ideas and possible offensive actions (per Lori, less per you) are out there, but I can assure you, I won't be stalking you, because why would I? I will, however, hold the image of Cabinetman up for critque and possible ridicule if Lori or others create more posts hailing your actions while depicting them as abusive. If you don't like how she portrayed her, tell her to lay off.

[Want More Babies]

Alright Cabinetman, I'll bite.

In all of the 221 comments that are posted on Lori's blog post titled, Cabinetman's Story of Headship and Submission nowhere do I see where you post that the blog post was comments from other posts, and taken out of context.

Lori states

Cabinetman comments occasionally on my blog. Ken and he have become friends through emails. He shared his story on one of my posts about his rebellious, unsubmissive wife and how he worked hard to help her become the wife God has called her to be. Here is their story ~

This disclaimer by Lori makes it seem like this was a written story, not just comments strewed together to make a post.

You might want to put that disclaimer in the comments section.

I am a woman who suffers with depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc. and have wanted to die. I have been hospitalized twice for severe depression. That said, when my husband and I were married, I was very BROKEN. There were times when he would find me on the kitchen floor, huddled in a corner, biting myself because I could not put my pain into words, I just needed to get it out. He never "disciplined" me for anything. He would hold me, let me cry, and take me to doctor's appointments to try and get me to heal. Being isolated makes my depression worse, much worse. I can't imagine having to stay home all day doing nothing but cleaning, laundry, cooking, and homeschooling. That would result in me having a total meltdown. It has, in the past. I have homeschooled, and am so glad that my children were very involved with outside activities where I could get out of the house and be around other people.

The last few months have found me enclosed within my four walls, and I am not doing well with it. AT ALL. My husband is doing all he can to get me out and meet new people (we just moved due to him relocating for a job). I can't imagine being confined to the house, on house arrest. That is what I call it when I spend all day, days on end, in my house with nowhere to go, and trying to entertain a child.

[SunnyAndrsn]

I am still being called an abuser, no matter what my wife says. I've explained away every single "abusive" thing people have said was abusive, said it was recommended, ok'd or suggested by professionals. It's still being reported that it was potentially dangerous self-help when I have said more times than I can count there were doctors and a counselor involved, not to mention family.

As the information was presented, YES. Why is it difficult to say your wife was suffering from a mental health disorder? Is she ashamed? Are you ashamed? Mental health disorders need a bigger voice, greater advocacy. If Lori had presented you and your wife's situation in terms of this, I don't think anyone would have snarked or been critical of it. Now you are talking about the professionals that were involved, but why didn't you both include this information from the beginning and/or ask Lori to edit her blog to include it? Now knowing this information, the take home message from Lori's blog post is that a woman's mental health is a choice.

Again, I said this from the first. Some of you will hate me because of my beliefs and because of that no matter what I say you will not believe me. But please be honest enough to just admit that. You don't have to call me names. Just say I think your beliefs are the problem. But then don't call yourself tolerant. Don't tell me I'll be accepted/judged not based on my beliefs. Leave the hate to "why" and not the person.

I am not asking you to stop talking about me. Say you don't think the approach was best. Say you don't like our beliefs. But you don't have to say damaging things about me.

I've tried to say that your approach wasn't best--wasn't even close. I don't like your beliefs, it's damaging to Christianity. I don't hate you, but I wouldn't feel comfortable being alone with you either.

No offense, but we are the minority now. The government views us like it did women 200 years ago. We are the freaks. How would you feel if the safety and integrity of your family was judged by the fundies you make fun and critize? Make fun of me. Criticize my beliefs. But leave it as vague "people" on the internet. Don't come looking for me. Don't make my family feel threatened, and yes, my wife and I certainly feel threatened by the talk and those looking for us.

[formergothardite]

We live in a world now where winning about ideology is more important than the truth or the people involved

When discussing with Ken this is exactly how I felt about him. He cared more about winning is ideological point than the truth about the rampant abuse in circles where women are given the blanket advice to just "submit more", always blamed for any marriage problems, and men are given the power to punish and discipline wives for disagreeing with them. He even said that that sort of abuse wasn't his "hot button issue". Yes, he and his wife set themselves up as marriage mentors and yet don't care about finding the truth about abuse. Women have died because they were told to go home and submit to their husband. Died. But Lori said that it wasn't her fault if people get hurt by her advice.

[usmcmom]

Want More Babies - I just wanted to let you know that I'm holding good thoughts for you. I hope the days ahead have some bright spots in store for you.

[Mecca]

Christian persecution? Really? We are going there?

Did something REALLY happen or are you letting your imagination take over, CB? I find it odd that by your own admission you knew about this place since Feburary because of Ken, but you just now show up. Why is that?

[Want More Babies]

It looks like Ken and Lori are using you for their entertainment. I would use caution in posting on their blog in the future.

The more Lori posts, the more I think she really HATES men and does all she can to portray them in a negative light.

[Tesseract]

For me CM's underwhelming response to how he was portrayed on Lori's blog seriously undermines the credibility/veracity of his "clarifications" here.

[Cabinetman]

To the lady suffering from the health/mental issues. I'm sorry you are going through that. To be clear I wasn't dealing with you, but my wife with very different symptoms that need a very different set of solutions. I wasn't giving advice for your husband to deal (sorry best word I could come up with but not a good choice I know) with you. Just telling what I needed to do for MY wife. It was not a how to manaul. It was a love from a husband doesn't always look like love at all times. Just like love from a wife or parent might not look like love in the moment.

I find it ironic that you mock that a christian or a man can be persecuted. I never said any other group cannot be. I'm not trying to corner the market on the position, but it might be time for some of you to realize that it is not 1950 anymore and yes christians and men can indeed be persecuted. If you haven't felt that, than maybe it's not because you are in that position. I would not tell you what it is like to be black or a woman and have the issues that those groups do.

As far as working women, feminists etc. I have said my "people" hold certain views, including myself. The difference is, I don't speak about YOU. I don't single you out. I don't look up your name and address and threaten to out YOU.

I have no problem with you attacking "fundies" that is your right in America and I'm proud to support it, but it crosses the line when you start looking folks' name and addresses up on the internet. If you haven't had that happen to you by people by their own admission hate you, then you don't know the way my wife and I felt and I would ask you to slow down and consider that. Please. Thank you.

I have a business to go run. I have stolen as much time as I could last night and this morning to address the concerns you had about me/us. Thank you for listening and responding.