We're Always Learning New Things with Ken Alexander: Part 2

[samurai_sarah]

Our house is in both our names. Our business is in both our names. All our cars are in her name. She keeps the finiances. I don't even know how you get to this conclusion.

To be perfectly honest, I can find work to survive in a day, so could my wife. I cannot find someone who loves me and will have sex with me in a day (probably years?). Money=dependence in your book. Love from someone that will have sex me=dependence in my book. If you ask me I am more dependent on my wife than she is one me.

You are confusing two different texts and two different conversations with your last sentence. I have explained our long post. The text above is directed to one lady. Who has asked me to keep posting at Lori's blog, as have many of the ladies. I have offered to quit several times and several gals have asked me to not stop. Yes, I do not sit right with some of her readers.

Listen folks, we can go back and forth. I have honestly answered your questions. From the very first post I made no secret of our belief in headship & submission. If we are going to drag up something and say surprise, see he didn't mean all these things he said in the last day, he was lying. Well no I wasn't. I stated from the beginning what I beleive.

If you all promise NOT to contact me, NOT go looking for us and NOT turning us into authorities because you don't agree with us and think I abused my wife or being vindictive. If that is what you are giving me your word on, then my mission is accomplished. You got the post taken down. I have apolagized for communicating poorly and mischarachterizing some feminist quotes. I have promised to choose my words for carefully in the future and might not even post any longer. We believe what we believe. We aren't going to change that. You can disagree with me on that and I have no problem with it. Can we call a truce on the hate talk and the searching and I will leave you in peace?'

We just want to be left in peace without worries, is that okay?

Ask Lori Alexander to keep your information confidential. She's the source. Nip it in the bud.

[dawbs]

re: allowed our beliefs

All beliefs are not equal. This has been making my FB round today and it feels reasonable to throw it here (not breaking link because they wouldn't care: https://theconversation.com/no-youre-no ... inion-9978.

SO, yes, you're allowed your beliefs (general you). And I'm allowed to think you're a lousy piece of shit for believing them and that they're factually incorrect, spiritually abusive, and you should be changing your opinion.

[salex]

Anyone... WTF is he going on about???

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'm sort of curious about the reasoning behind CM wanting to defend traditional sex roles so much, after his tale of being on the receiving end of domestic violence.

I've had cases in real life where men had to deal with danger from the mothers of their children.

Many of the very real barriers that they faced came from rigid gender role stereotypes. If you don't believe that men can care for children, then you don't build shelters that can accommodate fathers with children, and many men themselves were reluctant to step up as primary caregivers when it was clear that they needed to do so. In one case of mine, the family was traditional Christian, and the fact refused to see himself as being abused (despite police photos of the injuries) and had no idea how he could possibly care for their baby on his own....until the situation basically forced him to do it, and he quickly realized that he was perfectly capable. I've had other cases where fathers returned to dangerous women because they were convinced that only the mother could properly look after the children, and we later learned that the children were abused, neglected or otherwise opposed to extreme risk.

I also don't see what your story has to do with submission. You've said that your wife had a physical condition that either caused or aggravated symptoms of a mood disorder. That's not "rebellion", that's a disorder. Both men and women can have various disorders that cause extreme behavior and which may pose a risk.

[2xx1xy1JD]

re: allowed our beliefs

All beliefs are not equal. This has been making my FB round today and it feels reasonable to throw it here (not breaking link because they wouldn't care: https://theconversation.com/no-youre-no ... inion-9978.

SO, yes, you're allowed your beliefs (general you). And I'm allowed to think you're a lousy piece of shit for believing them and that they're factually incorrect, spiritually abusive, and you should be changing your opinion.

Thanks for the link. I love it.

[formergothardite]

Am I upset with Lori? No. It was poorly communicated, partly my fault. We should have written something from scratch. I do not believe their intentions were as you all believe. I do not believe them evil people, obviously everyone here disagrees with me. I have things I disagree with them about but I do not believe that had bad intentions.

Since about 5% of girls are told they must submit as they grow up these days, I don't see it as a huge problem to begin with. I see the bigger problem, as examplified in my posts here that the husbands are still supposed to die for his wife but the wife's responsiblity is not taught. I was told yesterday by one of your members that God expected me to be willing to die for my wife and children, but I doubt that same lady believes she is to submit to her husband? Why is one side of the bible verse being taught but not the other?

I know there are women out there that submit out of fear, but I do not believe most of those are from those in the fundamentalist christian community. In other words, not because of her religion is she being oppressed. Are there some, you bet. But there are just as many women (more) eating men alive and spitting them out thru the divorce and legal system. Does one justify the other, absolutely not. I am against both wholeheartedly.

Submission is barely taught in churches. I have been in christian churches for 20 years now. Pastored for three years in three different churches. Attended half a dozen. Visited a couple dozen more. I have never heard submission taught, not once. I have heard women praised on mothers day and father's chewed out on father's day though, probably 18 times.

I admit men have done much damage to women over the years. I do not deny this. But you don't stop teaching submission because some abuse it. You just enforce accountability and discipline the men who do wrong by their wives. For years men did more damage to men that women did to men. I believe now it's close to equal with momentum going towards women doing more damage. You will all disagree with me and that is fine.

I answered as honestly as I know how.

Well you shouldn't really be upset with us for not knowing that there were three parts of the story, not knowing that you clarified more in the comments, not knowing that your wife was mentally ill, and not knowing that you were following the orders of doctors and therapists and not just doing this on a whim.

I have been in fundamental Christian churches for over 30 years. My experience is VASTLY different than yours. I was raised having wifely submission crammed down my throat. I was raised with the idea that if women just "submit more"(like Lori teaches) the marriages will improve. I was raised to believe that a lot of the times the problems were with the women. Submission wasn't a choice, it was something that was demanded, even if the husband did not live up to his end(like Lori teaches). And it isn't just me. I'll share some blogs that back this up so you can't pull a Ken and claim I'm just a special snowflake whose psyche was damaged when nobody else's would be.

abeautifulruckus.com/2014/03/in-which-i-talk-about-surviving-bill.html

I care about the men and boys too, but it's the women and girls that make my heart break. Sweet Christian women who are told that submission to the point of bondage inside a marriage, no voice or opinion, and being blamed for any shortcomings of her husband is the best way to be a good wife. That she is only good for running a house and raising children. That if her husband strays, it's because she wasn't a good enough wife. It's filled with guilt, the need to "just try harder," and the thought that if anything goes wrong, all fingers will be pointed back to her. Because she is a woman and that's her role in life....oh, friends. It's a horrible, horrible existence, and they don't even realize it. They don't realize it, because they are conditioned to believe it, and their acceptance is rooted in their ability to perform to those standards.

It is a form of slavery even though they aren't physically locked away

darcysheartstirrings.blogspot.com/2011/06/letter-to-family-considering-joining.html

*CM If you are not aware of what ATI is, Ken is and he approves. He could never point out where the ATI teachings on submission differs from his. He did not want to even talk about the rampant abuse in an organization with this sort of teachings on submission.

ATI is is a HOTBED of spousal and child abuse, too. I have seen it so many times. In ATI, men are taught that they are the ultimate authority in their homes, and the whole umbrella of authority/chain of command teaching is emphasized over and over, starting in the Basic Seminar. It sounds good on the surface, but actually it isn't Biblical. Christ is the only mediator between God and Man. My relationship with Christ does not need to go through my father or my husband, or my pastor, or Bill. In Christ there is no male or female, Jew or Greek... yes, children are directed to obey their parents, adult children are directed to honor their parents (note the difference between the two), wives and husbands are to honor and love and submit to one another in the fear of God...but that is not the same as a military-style "chain of command". And nowhere do we see the idea of an "umbrella of authority" in Scripture. But in the ATI world, if a man chooses to be hyper-controlling or verbally abusive, there is no recourse at all for his wife and children. They are directed to simply keep submitting and obeying him, and not to talk about the family's problems with others, lest they damage their testimony. This culture runs VERY deep in ATI. Of the longtime ATI families who were friends of ours in the program, roughly half are now divorced, and well over half have had some or most of their kids completely rebel and even reject Christianity. There are so many long-time ATI families I know, where it came out after many, many years, that behind closed doors the husband was verbally and emotionally tearing his wife and kids to shreds on a daily basis, then putting on a suit and a smile and being accepted as a great leader in the ATI community.

If a woman comes to someone and says that her husband is abusing or mistreating her, she is encouraged to forgive him, go back to him, and keep submitting and praying for him. I actually heard my own parents counseling women in that situation, to do so. Nothing else. I know of women who were abused for over 20 years, whose sons grew up to have HORRIBLE attitudes toward women because of what they saw at home, whose daughters grew up thinking such actions were normal and that women have no choice but to be doormats. If the man doesn't actually strike his wife (or if he doesn't do it very often, and he "repents" afterward), then the counselors in ATI scoff at the idea that he is abusing her, and instead she is accused of being "rebellious".

Of course, ATI's official teachings say men should be respectful and "listen to the cautions of their wives" and so forth, but listen to those lessons carefully... if he doesn't listen to her and treat her respectfully and lovingly, there is nothing she can do about it. She has no recourse, and he has no accountability. I'm not saying that ATI will turn a good man into an abuser, but instead that this kind of system tends to attract men with abusive tendencies

I could get your more. Do you want the story of the lady who went to her church and was told submission was the key, blamed for most likely having a bad attitude towards her husband and causing him to act this way and told to submit more. Her husband murdered her two weeks later.

Or do you want the story of the lady who suffered emotional abuse for decades because she felt that is what God wanted until she eventually had an emotional breakdown because she couldn't endure it anymore. Nobody in the church believed the abuse because for years she had been praising her husband as her "Hero" because she thought that if she did this enough he would change and so the church sided with him?

Or do you want the story of a young woman whose husband was vetted by her church and her father and he started abusing her two days after the wedding. The church told her to submit more and acted like she was making a big deal out of nothing, she finally left after he threatened to shoot her with a shotgun. The church only sided with her in the situation AFTER they found out the man had lied about being a virgin, not because, you know he was abusing his wife.

I can go on if you still don't see the huge problem here.

[polecat]

Am I upset with Lori? No. It was poorly communicated, partly my fault. We should have written something from scratch. I do not believe their intentions were as you all believe. I do not believe them evil people, obviously everyone here disagrees with me. I have things I disagree with them about but I do not believe that had bad intentions.

I don't believe they're evil, but I do believe they're remarkably stupid. Or willfully ignorant. It kind of works out to the same thing.

Since about 5% of girls are told they must submit as they grow up these days, I don't see it as a huge problem to begin with. I see the bigger problem, as examplified in my posts here that the husbands are still supposed to die for his wife but the wife's responsiblity is not taught. I was told yesterday by one of your members that God expected me to be willing to die for my wife and children, but I doubt that same lady believes she is to submit to her husband? Why is one side of the bible verse being taught but not the other?

Oh, I was raised like this. I am fairly certain others were, too. I was raised in the fundiest of fundy families, and I was even told as a teen that I would not even be allowed to move out of my family's home unless I was under the authority and protection of a godly man. Oddly enough, even though I was treated as an imbecile, I WAS still encouraged to be educated. I think this is where class lines really become clear for fundies.

I know there are women out there that submit out of fear, but I do not believe most of those are from those in the fundamentalist christian community. In other words, not because of her religion is she being oppressed. Are there some, you bet. But there are just as many women (more) eating men alive and spitting them out thru the divorce and legal system. Does one justify the other, absolutely not. I am against both wholeheartedly.

So maybe you've not seen any women submitting out of fear. I have. One member of my parents' church raped a mentally disabled woman. You know what his wife did? She prayed and begged God's forgiveness for neglecting that man's "needs." She took all the blame, and she stood by him when he went to jail, praying every freaking Wednesday night that God would forgive her for HER sin, and when he came home, she welcomed him back into her arms and family -- along with her two teen daughters. Because she was a submissive wife.

Submission is barely taught in churches. I have been in christian churches for 20 years now. Pastored for three years in three different churches. Attended half a dozen. Visited a couple dozen more. I have never heard submission taught, not once. I have heard women praised on mothers day and father's chewed out on father's day though, probably 18 times.

Well, I've heard it. Quite a bit. Funnily enough, even though I was raised in hardcore fundy churches with stricter standards than the Alexander's, I never heard that a man had a right to put his hands on his wife or shove her up against the wall to control her. She was to submit willingly, and he was to lead willingly. He had no right to force her to obey. God gives us free will. He gives us ALL free will -- even those subhuman women. And I'll just add if you pastored for three years, why didn't YOU preach on submission? Especially if it's so important to you? And how is it that you pastored in the first place since your home was clearly not in order the way the Bible commands it to be.1 Tim 3:4-5

[dawbs]

I literally snorted at 5% of girls being taught submission. Submission teaching is rampant. ANd of course women are honored on mother's day--slaves get honored on occasion too...lipservice to one holiday doesn't make submission less rampant.

Look, there's not a fundie-ish church experience in North America that would shock me; you name it, I've probably seen it. I've heard more sermons on submission crap than I care to remember...but I've heard sermons that had 'submit' slipped in as a side comment more times than I can count.

Oddly enough, the men in my life would, in the case of the latter, say "why did that sermon irritate you?" and when I pointed out the irritation, they would say "oh...I didn't notice"--they would, when thinking hard about it, realize the truth of what I was saying, but the subtle sexism had slid right on past them...because to them it was background noise.

It's a rare person indeed who can fully take on the burden of the 'other side' and truly see it.

(In fact, it's not that different than my husband muttering something unhappy in a restaurant because of a screaming child and, not until I convinced him to count the children in the room, concede that 10% of the children in the restaurant were being ill behaved, 90% were fine. Confirmation bias. Not seeing issues that don't affect you directly. These things aren't cardinal sins--and heaven knows we're all guilty of them in different areas.

Awareness is the best tool for seeing that more clearly--for seeing that non-theists and people who aren't christian are persecuted, for seeing that sexism is rampant and that submission is taught by proxy in just about all evangelical churches, for seeing the day to day crap that is easy for all of us dismiss as background noise.)

[docmom]

Cabinetman:

We just want to be left in peace without worries, is that okay?

Err, yes. CM, no-one is going after you. I don't know who you are and I don't care. I never (god willing) ever wish to meet you in real life. Are any FJers showing up at your house, e-mailing you directly or threatening your family? If they are, go to the authorities. If not, stop whining. If you want to be left in peace stop posting on public forums. If you continue to post things with which I fundamentally disagree, I will continue to state my opposition. This is the internet. This is how it works. If you want to stop interacting with people who disagree with you (and I can imagine how uncomfortable I'd feel posting my viewpoints on a fundie forum) stop coming here. You aren't going to change our minds and you can't stop us giving our opinions. This is not religious persecution. This is freedom (see the constitution).

Quite frankly I'm amazed how surprised both Ken and CM seem to be that there are a whole bunch of people out in the ether who disagree fundamentally with what they say and aren't swayed by their arguments. I wouldn't be the least surprised to see that they disagreed with me if I posted a comment on Lori's blog yet they seem to think it's amazingly weird and threatening that people disagree with them. Do they never interact with anyone with different beliefs???

[SquirrelySquirrel]

The problem I have with the whole "we should all be free to believe our beliefs" from people like you CM, along with Lori, Ken, and countless others is that you want to use those "beliefs" to justify and excuse things like whipping children with belts and plumbing line or tossing them in an ice child shower or force feeding them. Can you really, truly not see why so many people find that abusive?? Maybe you personally don't think kids should be hit with belts, but you aren't shying away from people who do.

There is absolutely nothing you could find in my parenting techniques that could compare. I advocate peaceful (not to be confused with permissive, as people like Ken love to assume) parenting, and empathy and compassion, along with educating yourselves on child development so you know what can be reasonably expected.

The only reason someone of your ilk could find to take away my child is that she isn't being raised by Christians. I've been told by more than one person on the internet that it should be reason enough. Their opinions don't matter a bit to me.

Not many here, be they Christian or atheist, man or woman, are going to take "Christian persecution seriously. It simply does not exist in the US or most of the home countries of our users. What you claim to be persecution is nothing more than you not being allowed to demand special rights for Christianity only.

[Cabinetman]

Polecate & formergothardite,

You've been fair to me, so thank you. I have admitted several times that there have been men that abused headship and several times that men have done much damage to women...so I'm not sure what you want from me. I just think the opposite is also true. I have just as many stories about men who are abused and used by their wives because non will call their wife on her sin and because she holds the divorce/ailmony/child custody & support card. I've seen the hollow looks in their faces as they face a sexless, tyrancy and slave of being a checkbook as they are constantly berated at home and disrespected. I do not know the organizations you are referring to, so I can't verify their sins & don't have time to go snooping, but I'll take your word on it. It would not surprise me.

Men and women are both screwed up, many badly. The thing is I will admit that both sexes are and I will also stand up to men who do abuse their wife. The only case I came across when I was pastoring of a husband abusing his wife I called the police and later took him down to the creek for a little "talk"...I'm 6'2 270 and stronger than 99% of men on earth...he got the message. I have no respect for men that hit their wives or children. I also don't respect those who emotionally abuse their wives and children, but also think we have different views of what consitutes emotional abuse. But I would denounce the examples you gave and stand up to such men.

I agree, to practice submission there has to be some type of accountablity and somewhere for the wife to turn if things are not right and abuse is taking place. I will stand by that all day long. However, I also want the wife to be called on her aspects.

Thank you again, for treating me fairly the both of you.

[Tesseract]

Wow. That's quite the verifiable statistic.

(NOT)

I know, right. :roll: If you add the number of women in religions and cultures worldwide who are taught to be submissive to men, it adds up to a heckuva lot more than he thinks. Or, is he talking about the US? Or western cultures or his hometown? When we lived in TX, you could find churches teaching submission pretty easily. My husband grew up in one. That particular denomination is everywhere.

I think formergothardite makes an excellent point about whether it is actually a true choice to submit if you have been taught that is the only Trew way from birth and threatened with god's wrath or the loss of his grace. Sure, CM and his wife may well have chosen that model freely, but what about subsequent children? Without giving children a balanced view of options, and by indoctrinating them with strict gender roles, they lose the essence of free choice.

Look around the world, CM, and see what it is really like for women and children where this is the religious/cultural norm. It isn't pretty. It looks *nothing* like those white middle class 50's sitcoms that you are in love with.

[formergothardite]

Oh, I admit that there are horribly abusive wives. I'm frankly appalled at Lori being so deceitful to get pregnant just so she didn't have to work and then passing it off as a joke in her post about it. So I will admit both sexes are screwed up. As I said earlier. I'm very pro-men. I hate that it is okay on television and shows for women to slap men or just think of Jon and Kate. If Jon had been treating Kate the way she treated him the network would have pulled it because of the outrage. But since she was abusing him it was allowed to stay on air.

I've seen women turned into shells of themselves because of submission. I've seen men be miserable because they were told they HAVE to be a leader and mocked if they wanted some other path. I've seen wonderful stay at home fathers treated like crap because they don't fit in the narrow box that many fundamental Christians want them to fit in.

I don't want women to get away with abusing their husbands or men to get away with abusing their wives. As I told Ken(which he repeatedly ignored and tried to pretend I didn't say) I don't care if women choose submission. But the key is freely choosing submission and being happy. If a woman feels like this is their only option, then it isn't a choice. If a woman feels like her husband will punish her or discipline her if she doesn't want to be submissive, it isn't a choice. If a man feels like he will be bashed and told he isn't a real man if he chooses to not be a leader then it isn't a choice. If a person chooses submission because of religious manipulation and fear then they are not freely choosing submission.

[dairyfreelife]

Da fuq? That is awful. Like really, really awful. Judging by the fundies love of adopting from China, Africa, and India, I think there's a good chance those poor girls are from one of those places. New culture, new language, (maybe) new names and religion, and if you complain, you get beaten. Lovely. :pull-hair:

It was India, she just said where, which, as my boyfriend was born and raised there and was raised as a Hindu, though he's not practicing anymore, this makes me so sad. There's so much beauty and tradition and culture there. These people seem to be those types who used to take people from their culture, like they did the native americans and force them to become Christians...but we are saving them and they should be grateful...yeah, fuck you, lady. :angry-cussingblack:

I know people who can't adopt for stupid little things and would be great parents, yet dipshits like this can adopt without any education or any thoughts about the children besides 'saving' them from the 'heathen' culture.

[polecat]

Polecate & formergothardite,

You've been fair to me, so thank you. I have admitted several times that there have been men that abused headship and several times that men have done much damage to women...so I'm not sure what you want from me. I just think the opposite is also true. I have just as many stories about men who are abused and used by their wives because non will call their wife on her sin and because she holds the divorce/ailmony/child custody & support card.

I've seen abuse on both sides -- from the husband AND the wife. Unfortunately, men are often loathe to get the authorities involved because they believe that it affects their manhood (for lack of a better term) to admit that their wives are abusive -- this hearkens back to another poster's comments about how rigid sex roles can contribute to this culture of silence. And because men tend to be bigger and stronger than their wives, they are capable of inflicting MUCH more damage on the women. Hence the reason we hear so much more about m to f intimate partner violence. I haven't looked up the statistics, so I don't know what the real incidence of f-m vs. m-f violence is.

I've seen the hollow looks in their faces as they face a sexless, tyrancy and slave of being a checkbook as they are constantly berated at home and disrespected. I do not know the organizations you are referring to, so I can't verify their sins & don't have time to go snooping, but I'll take your word on it. It would not surprise me.

If you are interested in learning more, I was in the IFB. Here is one resource for you: youtube.com/watch?v=hEeoF_t4sfQ

And another: chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-2013/Let-Us-Prey-Big-Trouble-at-First-Baptist-Church/

And another: patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2013/05/domestic-violence-in-the-ifb-church-movement/

Now in all fairness, in the environments in which I was raised, the abuse was largely aimed at the children, and both parents were generally involved. While women were certainly taught to be submissive and expected to be "keepers at home" (even had a ladies' group by that name!), the children were the ones who really bore the brunt of the abuse.

Men and women are both screwed up, many badly ...

I agree, to practice submission there has to be some type of accountablity and somewhere for the wife to turn if things are not right and abuse is taking place. I will stand by that all day long. However, I also want the wife to be called on her aspects.

I have no argument with this. Both partners need to be treating one another with respect and honor, and this is why I believe not in wifely submission but in mutual submission. My husband loves, honors and respects me, and I love, honor and respect him. We work together as a team to guide our family, and this works for us.

[milkncookies76]

It was India, she just said where, which, as my boyfriend was born and raised there and was raised as a Hindu, though he's not practicing anymore, this makes me so sad. There's so much beauty and tradition and culture there. These people seem to be those types who used to take people from their culture, like they did the native americans and force them to become Christians...but we are saving them and they should be grateful...yeah, fuck you, lady. :angry-cussingblack:

I know people who can't adopt for stupid little things and would be great parents, yet dipshits like this can adopt without any education or any thoughts about the children besides 'saving' them from the 'heathen' culture.

Oh God, no. My gf is an Indian Hindu, and the thought of someone trying to beat it out of her makes me

[ladyamylynn]

I'm 6'2 270 and stronger than 99% of men on earth...

:lol: Who taught these people percentages???

[usmcmom]

I guess I should be impressed with Cabinet Man's willingness to overlook Lori's distortion of his own words. I just don't get it, though. He has become so defensive about possible mischaracterizations by members of FJ, but when it has come from Lori - eh, no big deal. If somebody who shared my Biblical views, someone who held me up as a strong example of those views, drastically distorted my words on something so important to me, I'd be pretty hurt. It seems that is more of a betrayal than what a bunch of strangers on the internet might do.

[BalconySmoker]

"Submission is barely taught in churches. I have been in christian churches for 20 years now. Pastored for three years in three different churches. Attended half a dozen. Visited a couple dozen more. I have never heard submission taught, not once."

I'm sorry, but you are clearly incorrect. Submission is not some magical unicorn that never shows up in churches.

My husband is a member of a very popular church planting network in the US, all of which hold complementarian beliefs regarding male-female relationships (aka, hold traditional beliefs about submission and leadership in marriage.

In only a decade, this network has planted around 500 churches (30 in my state alone). This is one of many denominations/planting networks in the US that teach submission. Sovereign Grace church plants also espouse submission in marriage. IFB churches typically teach this as well. So do most Apostolic churches. In my town of like 100k people, I can think of like six churches off the top of my head who teach this. I'm sure I could easily find more if the mood struck me.

There are THOUSANDS of churches in the US who teach this. You are not the minority, nor are you persecuted. To pretend you are is a total joke and a lie.

My husband has been a missionary in countries where Christianity could land you in JAIL. He had a friend who was beheaded for his faith about five years ago. The idea that a white, protestant, American man is somehow a martyr for his religion because he's whining on a message board is DISGUSTING. Shame on you.

You don't know what suffering for your religion is.

You don't know what defending the faith is.

You are a lazy, American-Christian, pharisee who hasn't had to risk your biscuit so much as once in your entire life.

The folks on this website are not persecuting you. They are disagreeing with you, and shaking their heads at you. Nothing more.

When I see men like Cabinetman and Ken Alexander in this thread it makes my blood boil. I'm so glad I'm married to a man who is an ACTUAL Christian. One who isn't a whiny pansy on the internet when people don't fall all over themselves agreeing with them. One who doesn't need to put his hands on women and children to get them in line.

And please spare me the pity-seeking over your wife's mental illness. I ran a group home for years, I've seen countless cases like your wife's, and many much worse than her. It doesn't give you any excuses or passes.

[Chowder Head]

This is how I feel some people get their percentages.

[Hane]

Flouncing: He is Doin It Rong. So much for his "first and last post"--he's up to 26 now. *yawn*

[lawfulevil]

Cabinetman-

Can I offer you some sincere if unsolicited advice? I have some professional experience skip tracing.

The fuss you're making right now is far more telling than anything else, FJ is FULL of speculation, the fact that you seem genuinely freaked out by the speculation.... well, what do you think that says? If you're trying to avoid someone confirming your identity, making a big fuss is exactly the wrong way to go about this. Leave everything you can as-is, deny everything, and when the furor dies down, THEN clean house. Whatever tracks you've left weren't put there overnight, and they won't disappear overnight. Google caches pretty much everything, including Free Jinger.

If you try (or are trying) to scrub things right NOW I guarantee someone is watching you do it, and it's only confirming who you are. That's pretty basic tactically... fling shit at all four walls and see which one they start frantically scrubbing.

[usmcmom]

Would it be fair to say that Ken has caused quite a ruckus for Lori and her blog? First he comes to the forum to "defend" his wife and ends up talking about their sex life and promising to "be more careful" about what they post. Then he sends Cabinet Man over here, only to draw attention to more problems with Lori's blog, causing Cabinet Man to ask them to delete several items. Somehow I think his plan didn't work out as he'd hoped.

[lawfulevil]

I have no opinion on Cabinetman. Maybe he's an abusive fuck. Maybe not. I'd hate for other people to judge me based on a version of my life story LORI posted, though.

As for Ken: The Worst At Helping. Seriously.

[feministxtian]

Cabinetman...I realize you probably have a real issue with my user name, and that's fine. However...your yammering about never hearing about submission in churches is pure-d bull. I belong to a rather moderate denomination (not liberal, not fundie) and yet, the acknowledgement that men are to be the leaders of their families is taught...from the pulpit, in the men's groups, in the women's groups AND in our couples' group. I have no problem with the idea that my husband is the leader of our home. I DO have a problem with him misusing that leadership. Yes, I am a feminist...I believe that men and women are EQUAL and should have EQUAL opportunities. I also believe that I am not defined solely by my vagina, nor is my husband solely defined by his penis.

Yes, I work full time and it's a damn good thing I do. My husband's disability check doesn't go very far. I have the education and ability to pull down a pretty good living. No, I don't bash my husband over the head with my fat paycheck OR the fact that I carry and pay for the medical benefits that help him way more than they help me. And...I don't make fun of my husband when he does the "wifely" stuff like housework. We each contribute to the running of our household. My contribution is $$$, his is taking care of the house. Does it really matter who does what? Does it really matter who earns what? Is my husband less of a man because he can no longer work? Am I less of a wife because I have the ability to support us comfortably?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this...