We're Always Learning New Things with Ken Alexander: Part 2

[Cabinetman]

Cabinetman...I realize you probably have a real issue with my user name, and that's fine. However...your yammering about never hearing about submission in churches is pure-d bull. I belong to a rather moderate denomination (not liberal, not fundie) and yet, the acknowledgement that men are to be the leaders of their families is taught...from the pulpit, in the men's groups, in the women's groups AND in our couples' group. I have no problem with the idea that my husband is the leader of our home. I DO have a problem with him misusing that leadership. Yes, I am a feminist...I believe that men and women are EQUAL and should have EQUAL opportunities. I also believe that I am not defined solely by my vagina, nor is my husband solely defined by his penis.

Yes, I work full time and it's a damn good thing I do. My husband's disability check doesn't go very far. I have the education and ability to pull down a pretty good living. No, I don't bash my husband over the head with my fat paycheck OR the fact that I carry and pay for the medical benefits that help him way more than they help me. And...I don't make fun of my husband when he does the "wifely" stuff like housework. We each contribute to the running of our household. My contribution is $$$, his is taking care of the house. Does it really matter who does what? Does it really matter who earns what? Is my husband less of a man because he can no longer work? Am I less of a wife because I have the ability to support us comfortably?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this...

Your experience in churches is not mine. Of the 20 churches we looked at when choosing one recently, we found one that acknowledged the husband as the leader of the home.

I do believe men and women have equal worth before God. I do not believe we are equal. Simply because there is no such thing as equality between two people, regardless of gender. I'm okay with equal opportunities. My wife is certainly not able to lift 150lb cabinets and I certainly am not able to give birth or nurse. She is much more nurturing. I am much more driven. We are not equal. Men and women are not the same, we are very, very different.

I don't have a problem with your marriage set up. I don't think it's ideal, but neither do I think your husband being on disability is ideal. I'm thankful you can do what you can do to take care of your family. You wouldn't hear me complaining about it in your situation.

BUT, for most couples it is not the ideal. Most men do not want to stay home nor are they best suited for it. Many women do want to stay home and are very much suited for it. And most definetly the kids need someone at home. So my thoughts are, I'm glad it works for you but much like my marriage I wouldn't write a how to manual on this is how a marriage is supposed to work (at least our marriage of 5-10 years ago). My problem is when mom picks career over kids and husband for pleasure and not because it's a must. Even then, as I've stated, I don't plan on passing around a petition anytime soon to outlaw that choice for women. I just don't think it is wise.

[formergothardite]

But for the men who WANT to stay at home and are good at it, the wifely submission/men leader/wife must stay at home while the man works is damaging to them. I think this sort of thinking is bad for both men and women.

Men shouldn't be shamed if they don't fit into the narrow box that society and religion wants to cram them into. We know some stay at home dads and it is horrible how they are looked down on and people accuse them of not taking care of their family. I think the mindset that if women are working they aren't raising their kids, but men can work all the time(and if they are Ken be gone most of the time and then skip out 3-4 nights when he is at home) and they aren't accused of putting their careers before their kids and wife or not raising their kids really downplays fathers and is demeaning to men.

My husband is much more nurturing than I am. He is also better at crafts and cooking and knitting and doing all those things on pinterest that I fail at. This does't make him any less of a man or me any less of a woman.

Told you we weren't anti-men here. ;)

[Tesseract]

CM said:

My problem is when mom picks career over kids and husband for pleasure and not because it's a must. Even then, as I've stated, I don't plan on passing around a petition anytime soon to outlaw that choice for women. I just don't think it is wise.

I think what is less wise, is not emphasizing a real education for girls, as they will be trained as homemakers, and setting up a situation whereby if the father becomes disabled or dies, the wife, who has no real world work experience and only a basic education, after all that submitting and mothering, is left holding the bag with kids to raise and suddenly having to face the working world with such little preparation. It happened to my mother-in-law, a preacher's wife who did everything a "godly christian wife" was supposed to do. In her 50's with several young children that needed to be raised, she put on pants for the first time in her life and took the only job she was qualified for. Let me tell you child care is not enough of an income to sustain a family who was already living frugally. Frankly, I think it is selfish not to have a plan B. It is not wise longterm thinking.

[Tesseract]

But for the men who WANT to stay at home and are good at it, the wifely submission/men leader/wife must stay at home while the man works is damaging to them. I think this sort of thinking is bad for both men and women.

Men shouldn't be shamed if they don't fit into the narrow box that society and religion wants to cram them into. We know some stay at home dads and it is horrible how they are looked down on and people accuse them of not taking care of their family. I think the mindset that if women are working they aren't raising their kids, but men can work all the time(and if they are Ken be gone most of the time and then skip out 3-4 nights when he is at home) and they aren't accused of putting their careers before their kids and wife or not raising their kids really downplays fathers and is demeaning to men.

My husband is much more nurturing than I am. He is also better at crafts and cooking and knitting and doing all those things on pinterest that I fail at. This does't make him any less of a man or me any less of a woman.

Told you we weren't anti-men here. ;)

ITA with everything you said here.

[AnAgnostic]

All I ask is you leave us alone. My precious wife and my kids are happy, safe and loved. You don't have to share our religious convictions. You don't have to agree with me. But can you please, I ask, leave us alone? Let my family be at peace please. If you have tolerance like you say, then let that apply to us. We don't want trouble with you. We are real people, with real lives. Will you agree to that please?

Cabinetdude, you came here to engage with us! Leave us alone! People snarking on you is not bothering you - what's bothering you is that we point out the seriously warped relationship with your wife. Also as a person who exhibited symptom of PMMD in the past, as much as I wanted to be left alone, being deliberately isolated by someone else would have been detrimental. Did you even consider medication? I'd like to know what professional told you to keep your wife from other people.

[Cabinetman]

I've heard the term blanket statement here a few times. I don't believe in them. There are no two people or two situations that are exactly alike, many are not alike at all. My pastor watches his kids two days a week and three days a week they go to a lady in the church who watches them, while his wife works. They have agreed she is not best suited for home and can't stay motivated at home (her words). Is it what I think is best, no. Is it what I want for my marriage, no. Do I expect anyone else to live by the beliefs my wife and I agree on? No. Do I have a problem attending the church, having my family learn from them and putting myself under his accountability, no.

I don't agree on the education for girls, but simply because I do not think they teach godly values at colleges. Not because I'm opposed to her being educated. If it was up to me, it won't be as both my kids will make there own decisions when they are 18, I would not send my son or my daughter to college but have my son learn a trade or take over my business. If my daughter chooses to work, it's her decision, but we will not encourage her to get an education or a career but it will be her call.

There are lots of plan B's. We have implented several. Life Insurance is purchased and cheap. Disability insurance is purchased and cheap. For us these are better options for a plan B.

But that is us. If it is not for you, that is your decision. You continue to think I want you to live an exact clone of my life. I do not. I am not looking to take away your choices. I will tell you what I believe, but that is all it is, me giving an opinion on what I believe about the Bible and men & women. I don't consider myself God, but somehow many of you seem to think I do.

On the PMDD, who told me to help keep my wife's life low key/away from people: 1)my wife 2) her medical doctor 3) her counselor. If you don't know about PMDD women isolating themselves, you don't know much about PMDD. I encourage you to google PMDD blogs and read for an hour. Every single blog writer out there the subject will speak to the fact that they hole up anywhere from 3 days to 3 weeks every month. It's how they survive.

[Koala]

I am finally catching up, and all I can say is that if he is innocent, he's the most guilty looking innocent person I have ever seen.

"Don't find out who we are in real life, k? Can we agree to that? We agree right? You won't find out who we are? Promise? Pinky swear? I don't want the authorities to get involved and take my children away and put me in jail. You won't contact anyone, right? Cause I know people who've gone to jail. You aren't going to call the police are you? I'm innocent, it's just that I don't want to lose my family. By the way, I am stronger than 99% of the men in the world!!!! But back to our promise, you won't call anyone, right???" :evil-eye:

Seriously, no one can find what you, your wife, and Lori don't put out there. If you don't want anyone to find out who you are, then tell Lori to quit dropping bread crumbs that lead right to your door. Personally, I could give fuck all who you are. I even said I thought the link to your wife's fb page was questionable.

[Cabinetman]

I am finally catching up, and all I can say is that if he is innocent, he's the most guilty looking innocent person I have ever seen.

"Don't find out who we are in real life, k? Can we agree to that? We agree right? You won't find out who we are? Promise? Pinky swear? I don't want the authorities to get involved and take my children away and put me in jail. You won't contact anyone, right? Cause I know people who've gone to jail. You aren't going to call the police are you? I'm innocent, it's just that I don't want to lose my family. By the way, I am stronger than 99% of the men in the world!!!! But back to our promise, you won't call anyone, right???" :evil-eye:

Seriously, no one can find what you, your wife, and Lori don't put out there. If you don't want anyone to find out who you are, then tell Lori to quit dropping bread crumbs that lead right to your door. Personally, I could give fuck all who you are. I even said I thought the link to your wife's fb page was questionable.

Koala,

You are right. I am guilty of being an idiot. I should have kept my mouth shut at Lori's and I should have kept my mouth shut here. I've always believed the most folks will treat you decent if you are fair with them.

I'm sorry I have come across paranoid. But your group has scared the hell out of us. I thought if I shared my concerns you'd at least say, I don't approve of the way it was handled but I can see you aren't out to get your wife and I can see you and your wife really love each other. I'm sorry I couldn't communicate that or convince you. I don't know what else to do. I've answered your questions and I've treated everyone respectably no matter what they called me.

I hope some of my people never do this to any of you.

[SunnyAndrsn]

"your people" as you call them, do this all over the internet every day. Lori is just one example. Face it, conservative Christians judge the not-so-conservative Christians all the time. We're told we're not walking in truth, and God is going to condemn us for not having biblical marriages, or for not being submissive, or a whole host of over things that don't fit into their (and your) world view.

Doesn't feel so good on the other side of it, does it? You yourself responded to one of my comments on Lori's blog and said I was better off at home, and couldn't devote the proper time to my husband because I was away from my home 32 hours a week. YOU made that judgement of ME. Lori didn't publish my follow up comment, where I said I found your statements offensive, but that was her choice.

Your wife said she's happy--that's a good thing and I pray that she stays healthy.

[lawfulevil]

Cabinetman- you're assuming a level of sexual dimorphism that simply doesn't exist in humans. ALL men are in no way bigger than ALL women. 6'2 and 270? Don't tell Lori... your BMI is high. SIN. Even assuming it's all muscle (ha)... la di da, a wonderful man and church deacon where I grew up was at least 6'8 (the height of the doors), built, and height-weight proportionate. Also the sweetest, gentlest person I've ever met and a stay-at-home father. Body size just isn't related to personality.

Nor is gender. Your "average" college-educated man is in no way better at math than I am. That's simply untrue. Also, your average man, globally, is shorter than I am.

Explain to me in what way my husband deserves to win every argument based on him having a penis? We're individuals who work well together. We do NOT fulfill gender stereotypes well. Me? Might as well try to turn a wolverine into a housewife. Him? He's a good person but he's not exactly presidential material.

We're roughly the same height, I'm college-educated in a 'traditionally masculine' discipline (he barely graduated high school), know my way around a gun while he does not... in fact, the man can't wire anything, fix the plumbing, lay tile, or even re-sod the lawn. He knows nothing about car maintenance, can't cook, speaks only English, and the cats don't like him much. On the other hand he's a hard worker and a wonderful friend... he's attractive, he makes being home extremely pleasant, does all the laundry and irons, and children and dogs absolutely adore him. I love him dearly. My husband could TRY to dominate me... and maybe with enough thorazine it'd "work" for a month or two. But god help us all if he was actually in charge of scheduling my life.

[usmcmom]

I really am trying to understand why you are scared, Cabinet Man. I say that in all sincerity. Have you actually been threatened? I really hope Ken isn't chiming in to fan the flames behind the scenes.

[Three and Done]

First - Mod hat OFF

I have just finished reading this thread, and what has incensed me throughout is the perception that Cabinetman has been mischaracterized by anyone! :angry-banghead:

By his own words here and on Lori's blog, he is simply an abuser that succeeded in gaslighting his victim into adopting HIS belief system. Lets not pretend any different. His claims of "professional" guidance are quite clearly self-serving and delusional.

Cabinetman - you make me truly ill. Stop hiding behind your "biblical headship" and acknowledge the fact that you believe women are possessions that are owned by True Christian [tm][/tm] men.

[HoneyBunny]

This is how I feel some people get their percentages.

That is how I feel these people chose their spouses.

[salex]

That is how I feel these people chose their spouses.

That is the best explanation I've heard so far. Ken never said what drew him and Lori together and made them decide they were right to be married. The closest I heard was she was a Doctor's wife. I have no idea how CM and Mrs. CM found one another--was is an arranged marriage/courtship, or some church thing or what.

How did they manage to have such marriage trainwrecks for years (or decades, for the Alexanders) if any one of the people in either couple married with their eyes open and with even the least bit of discussion and premarital counseling before they got married, beyond "Obey him, you sinful woman you."

I am eternally grateful that I went to a church that did not ever touch on submission--I have been a lot closer to "happily ever after" than the guys in here complaining at us for noticing their marriages sucked.

[Koala]

Koala,

You are right. I am guilty of being an idiot. I should have kept my mouth shut at Lori's and I should have kept my mouth shut here. I've always believed the most folks will treat you decent if you are fair with them.

I'm sorry I have come across paranoid. But your group has scared the hell out of us. I thought if I shared my concerns you'd at least say, I don't approve of the way it was handled but I can see you aren't out to get your wife and I can see you and your wife really love each other. I'm sorry I couldn't communicate that or convince you. I don't know what else to do. I've answered your questions and I've treated everyone respectably no matter what they called me.

I hope some of my people never do this to any of you.

Am I missing some element of your story? How on earth has our group scared the hell out of you and your wife (unless you are scared of people passing judgement on the material you have plastered/allowed to be plastered on the freaking world wide web)?

If someone here has crossed over into your real life, perhaps I could understand, but I am not seeing that. The connections that have been made were all made with the information that you/your wife/Lori have made readily available. It's not my style, and I went as far as to suggest I was uncomfortable with your wife's fb being posted, but seriously, that is the nature of putting all of your business online and then spouting off at the mouth about "disciplining" your wife. You can't really be surprised when it all comes back to bite you in the ass. ***I want to be very clear that if you are being threatened or harassed in any way you should contact authorities immediately.*** That said, having meanies on the interwebz say that they read your story and think you display many of the characteristics of an abuser is not harassment.

Finally, if you are looking for me to tell you that I am now comfortable that your wife hasn't been abused, you are barking up the wrong tree. There are too many facets of this story that don't sit right with me, and no amount of scrubbing is going to erase the fact that you read and approved Lori's version of your story before it was ever posted. If she wasn't portraying you accurately, it seems to me you would have spoken right up.

After spending a month with Ken, I think some here are impressed by the fact that you can string a coherent sentence together and recognize that words do indeed have meaning- I am not one of them. You come across as desperate to me, and I can only assume it's because you have something to hide. Your paranoia that someone is going to alert the authorities is very telling. What exactly is it that you are afraid they would find?

[Koala]

**SIDE NOTE** It should be a fucking law that every time you cite a statistic you must also cite your source. After a month with Ken and a day with Cabinetman it is quickly becoming a pet peeve of mine.

[ladyamylynn]

**SIDE NOTE** It should be a fucking law that every time you cite a statistic you must also cite your source. After a month with Ken and a day with Cabinetman it is quickly becoming a pet peeve of mine.

I'm sorry, but 48% of statistics have no source to cite.

[Micah]

I have to say this, even though it is stating the obvious..... I just finished watching Stephen Fry's two part documentary "Out There." (Highly reccomend it.) It is about homosexuality and homophobia. What struck me most, was the overwhelming degree to which words matter. I always knew that words could hurt, I was verbally and physically bullied as a child and sometimes the words hurt more than the punches and kicks. However, after I watched "Out There" I was struck by the uncomfortably and uncontravertable fact that WORDS ARE DANGEROUS.

It's all very well to say, "let me believe what I want and I'll do the same for you." When you're putting your words out there on the internet, that is no longer the case. In places like Uganda and Russia politicians are using words to incite hatred, fear, disgust and violence against people whose only crime is not loving in the 'normal' way. In these countries girls are being raped to 'cure them,' teenage children are being beaten and tortured to death, people are living in abject terror.

People whose beliefs involve submission, control and child abuse need to shut the hell up. Saying, "it's not my fault, I was taken out of context! Persecution!" is not an excuse, it is a cop out. Shut up, get off the interet and grow some awareness that what you say MATTERS.

[lawfulevil]

According to MSFUI*, 78% of statistics made up presented by internet patriarchs are at least somewhat related to the truth.

*the Making Shit the Fuck Up Institute

[Pam]

I'm 6'2 270 and stronger than 99% of men on earth...

Did you actually manage to keep a straight face when you said that? Reason I ask is because when I read that, I laughed so damn hard I nearly puked. Have you even encountered 99% of men on earth? Seriously??

[Mecca]

Koala,

You are right. I am guilty of being an idiot. I should have kept my mouth shut at Lori's and I should have kept my mouth shut here. I've always believed the most folks will treat you decent if you are fair with them.

I'm sorry I have come across paranoid. But your group has scared the hell out of us. I thought if I shared my concerns you'd at least say, I don't approve of the way it was handled but I can see you aren't out to get your wife and I can see you and your wife really love each other. I'm sorry I couldn't communicate that or convince you. I don't know what else to do. I've answered your questions and I've treated everyone respectably no matter what they called me.

I hope some of my people never do this to any of you.

Do what to us? Question us and our beliefs? Try to make us feel less than or immoral? You and your ilk do it every.freaking.day. Hello, your pals Lori and Ken are a great example of that. And it happens a lot, and that is why we have a need for a board like this.

Also, can you please stop alluding to something being done to your family by someone here. It is annoying, and you are trying to give the illusion that someone from here is causing you actual harm. Either tell the class what is really going on so we can address it or zip it. You also need to come to terms on how things work on the Internet. When you put VERY controversial things on the net, associate yourself with people that hold questionable beliefs, and do not bother to make yourself anonymous, you cannot be surprised if people put two and two together. To make it clear, harrassment is never OK, but we need to know what you are actually talking about here without riddles.

[Rescinded and Mended]

I've heard the term blanket statement here a few times. I don't believe in them. There are no two people or two situations that are exactly alike, many are not alike at all. My pastor watches his kids two days a week and three days a week they go to a lady in the church who watches them, while his wife works. They have agreed she is not best suited for home and can't stay motivated at home (her words). Is it what I think is best, no. Is it what I want for my marriage, no. Do I expect anyone else to live by the beliefs my wife and I agree on? No. Do I have a problem attending the church, having my family learn from them and putting myself under his accountability, no.

I don't agree on the education for girls, but simply because I do not think they teach godly values at colleges. Not because I'm opposed to her being educated. If it was up to me, it won't be as both my kids will make there own decisions when they are 18, I would not send my son or my daughter to college but have my son learn a trade or take over my business. If my daughter chooses to work, it's her decision, but we will not encourage her to get an education or a career but it will be her call.

There are lots of plan B's. We have implented several. Life Insurance is purchased and cheap. Disability insurance is purchased and cheap. For us these are better options for a plan B.

But that is us. If it is not for you, that is your decision. You continue to think I want you to live an exact clone of my life. I do not. I am not looking to take away your choices. I will tell you what I believe, but that is all it is, me giving an opinion on what I believe about the Bible and men & women. I don't consider myself God, but somehow many of you seem to think I do.

On the PMDD, who told me to help keep my wife's life low key/away from people: 1)my wife 2) her medical doctor 3) her counselor. If you don't know about PMDD women isolating themselves, you don't know much about PMDD. I encourage you to google PMDD blogs and read for an hour. Every single blog writer out there the subject will speak to the fact that they hole up anywhere from 3 days to 3 weeks every month. It's how they survive.

Cabinetman, you just congratulated feministxtian for being able to take care of her husband financially during his time of need. She is able to do this because she has gotten a college education. Heaven forbid, but if similar circumstances ever arose in your family, wouldn't you want your daughter to be able to do the same thing for her own husband, if it was necessary? There's nothing wrong with wanting to be a stay at home parent, but it is ideal to have an education so that one may fall back on it and secure work, and by extension, maintain the stability of the family, whenever the need arises.

Also, has it ever occurred to you that if you and your wife instilled good values at an early age, and your children are strong and happy in their beliefs, their faith could survive being held up to scrutiny in a college setting?

Every good parent wants better for their own children than what they had when they were young. Why not encourage your children and ensure that they have proper educations so that they can have a happier, more secure future?

[latraviata]

"your people" as you call them, do this all over the internet every day. Lori is just one example. Face it, conservative Christians judge the not-so-conservative Christians all the time. We're told we're not walking in truth, and God is going to condemn us for not having biblical marriages, or for not being submissive, or a whole host of over things that don't fit into their (and your) world view.

Doesn't feel so good on the other side of it, does it? You yourself responded to one of my comments on Lori's blog and said I was better off at home, and couldn't devote the proper time to my husband because I was away from my home 32 hours a week. YOU made that judgement of ME. Lori didn't publish my follow up comment, where I said I found your statements offensive, but that was her choice.

Your wife said she's happy--that's a good thing and I pray that she stays healthy.

Don't forget the atheists.

[Curious]

My husband is a member of a very popular church planting network in the US, all of which hold complementarian beliefs regarding male-female relationships (aka, hold traditional beliefs about submission and leadership in marriage.

Can I ask what the bold means? I've never heard that phrase before.

Thanks :)

[Patsy]

I hope some of my people never do this to any of you.

Any of what?