Anna Duggar - Merge

[hapamama]

That house is kind of rough in those pictures, but it looks like it's nothing that a few coats of paint and new flooring couldn't get livable in a short time. Josh is going to have plenty of time on his hands now.

[JenniferJuniper]

So let's say Pa Keller really didn't get the whole story. Maybe he was told Josh had a few indiscretions with girls in the past but Jesus has solved the problem.

If he had no idea it involved little girls - his own sisters - what's he thinking now? Given that he probably knows more about child molesters than the average fundie, does he have any concerns for his granddaughers? Anna is married for keeps now. Does Pa feel any guilt? Any resentments towards Jim Bob?

Pretty sad when you can say your most normal son-in-law is the Fabulous David Waller.

[SassyPants]

I agree. They were probably planning on staying in DC and slowly renovating the Arkansas house to have a local base for an eventual political run.

Josh had serious delusions of grandeur.

Apple does not fall far from the tree.

[eh02]

Wasn't the house in a pretty isolated area? I thought I remember it being actually within state park land.

If they can get it fixed up in time, they might be very grateful for that privacy...

[SassyPants]

That house is kind of rough in those pictures, but it looks like it's nothing that a few coats of paint and new flooring couldn't get livable in a short time. Josh is going to have plenty of time on his hands now.

Josh and whole lot of other people named Duggar and Seewald.

[Dandruff]

So let's say Pa Keller really didn't get the whole story. Maybe he was told Josh had a few indiscretions with girls in the past but Jesus has solved the problem.

If he had no idea it involved little girls - his own sisters - what's he thinking now? Given that he probably knows more about child molesters than the average fundie, does he have any concerns for his granddaughers? Anna is married for keeps now. Does Pa feel any guilt? Any resentments towards Jim Bob?

Pretty sad when you can say your most normal son-in-law is the Fabulous David Waller.

If he didn't know it involved little girls I imagine he's livid at both Josh and Jim Bob, and concerned for his granddaughters. Probably wishing he had asked more questions. Maybe he had assumed that since TLC was airing the show there couldn't be any really nasty skeletons in the closet?

[NoneandDoneinCali]

Here is my purely speculative opinion:

Anna is lying - she did not know. She may have been told some vague nonsense about sin, with no details, which probably caused her to confess her own "sins" at the time - eating an extra cookie as a child or something. Frankly, she may not know the details even now, other than some rumors (far short of the police reports). Josh has the password to their internet, remember? She will NEVER leave him. NEVER. He may leave for a short time, but she will ALWAYS take him back. She's a doormat, whose faith in her husband was never tested until now, because she was always happy to follow his lead and times were good.

Pa Duggar knew "something," but it was not the whole truth. He didn't bother to ask questions or investigate before he sold his daughter to the Duggars. Enjoy living with that, Keller Headship!

Josh may be sorry, but he legitimately cannot empathize with his victims. He can't understand why just saying sorry isn't enough for his adoring public - it was always enough for his parents and church! I don't think he'll do it to his own children, but I do (firmly) believe that he will be/currently is inappropriate with women - sexual harassment, nonconsensual touching. I get more of an "opportunist" vibe, rather than a pedophile one - he didn't PREFER young children or his sisters, exactly, but he damn well took advantage of what was available. I think he feels entitled to women, money, and property, and as long as he follows certain "rules" (for example, he is the head of household and his family are the chosen ones), he will have zero guilt. I see him skirting the line between legal/illegal for the rest of his life. He isn't going to lose any sleep due to his own morality, though he may lose sleep now that he isn't the cool kid (SOOO misunderstood, POOOOOOR Josh!!).

JB and Uterus - zero fucks given, until they were caught. They too will not lose sleep over their own poor decision making or moral failing - it will always be someone else's fault (the nebulous "World" beyond their home church). Josh learned his entitlement from JB.

JB and MIchelle aren't hurting for money. With their investments and marrying their kids off, they will probably never be "poor" again. The things is, now that the world has turned it's back for a time, I'm sure they'll be happy to take their cash and hoard it in their own little kingdom. The travel will stop, and they can smugly affirm to each other how horrible it is "out there."

The J Girls are probably so f*cked up and confused, I'm sure they DID forgive Josh (or, at least, think they did). I'm certain they blamed themselves, I'm certain their husbands didn't know, and I'm even more certain they really don't want to talk about it. They have very limited understanding of how their shitty upbringing affected their reaction to this. They probably have a love/hate relationship with Josh (profess to love him, sort of hate him, then end up hating themselves for not loving him).

Why this is a crime, where sexual play between siblings in other families may be normative (as squicky as it sounds, it's really not all that odd) -

- age difference

- continued for a year or more

- pattern of doing it when sisters were unable to consent (sleeping)

- continued after parents were told and sisters were obviously upset

- escalated from sleeping to doing it when they were awake

Anyways, I'm not going to lie - I am happy to see the Duggar empire crumble. It's about time.

[JenniferJuniper]

I get more of an "opportunist" vibe, rather than a pedophile one - he didn't PREFER young children or his sisters, exactly, but he damn well took advantage of what was available.

I would agree with this if all the victims were close to his age. And I know he was raised to see females as sexual objects and housekeepers, in that order.

But a four year old? She was barely more than a baby.

[HermioneSparrow]

Here is my purely speculative opinion:

Anna is lying - she did not know. She may have been told some vague nonsense about sin, with no details, which probably caused her to confess her own "sins" at the time - eating an extra cookie as a child or something. Frankly, she may not know the details even now, other than some rumors (far short of the police reports). Josh has the password to their internet, remember? She will NEVER leave him. NEVER. He may leave for a short time, but she will ALWAYS take him back. She's a doormat, whose faith in her husband was never tested until now, because she was always happy to follow his lead and times were good.

Pa Duggar knew "something," but it was not the whole truth. He didn't bother to ask questions or investigate before he sold his daughter to the Duggars. Enjoy living with that, Keller Headship!

Josh may be sorry, but he legitimately cannot empathize with his victims. He can't understand why just saying sorry isn't enough for his adoring public - it was always enough for his parents and church! I don't think he'll do it to his own children, but I do (firmly) believe that he will be/currently is inappropriate with women - sexual harassment, nonconsensual touching. I get more of an "opportunist" vibe, rather than a pedophile one - he didn't PREFER young children or his sisters, exactly, but he damn well took advantage of what was available. I think he feels entitled to women, money, and property, and as long as he follows certain "rules" (for example, he is the head of household and his family are the chosen ones), he will have zero guilt. I see him skirting the line between legal/illegal for the rest of his life. He isn't going to lose any sleep due to his own morality, though he may lose sleep now that he isn't the cool kid (SOOO misunderstood, POOOOOOR Josh!!).

JB and Uterus - zero fucks given, until they were caught. They too will not lose sleep over their own poor decision making or moral failing - it will always be someone else's fault (the nebulous "World" beyond their home church). Josh learned his entitlement from JB.

JB and MIchelle aren't hurting for money. With their investments and marrying their kids off, they will probably never be "poor" again. The things is, now that the world has turned it's back for a time, I'm sure they'll be happy to take their cash and hoard it in their own little kingdom. The travel will stop, and they can smugly affirm to each other how horrible it is "out there."

The J Girls are probably so f*cked up and confused, I'm sure they DID forgive Josh (or, at least, think they did). I'm certain they blamed themselves, I'm certain their husbands didn't know, and I'm even more certain they really don't want to talk about it. They have very limited understanding of how their shitty upbringing affected their reaction to this. They probably have a love/hate relationship with Josh (profess to love him, sort of hate him, then end up hating themselves for not loving him).

Why this is a crime, where sexual play between siblings in other families may be normative (as squicky as it sounds, it's really not all that odd) -

- age difference

- continued for a year or more

- pattern of doing it when sisters were unable to consent (sleeping)

- continued after parents were told and sisters were obviously upset

- escalated from sleeping to doing it when they were awake

Anyways, I'm not going to lie - I am happy to see the Duggar empire crumble. It's about time.

I agree with almost everything you said but to the bolded, most of FJers did not think he would sexually molested anyone let alone his sisters and here we are... We need to stop assuming nothing bad is ever gonna happen with these people, they have proven us how dangerous and unpredictable (to some people) they are. Josh needs to be evaluated by a REAL professional to determine if he's a pedophile or not, we can't say he is but we can't say he ISN'T. I have a sinking feeling he's way worst than we think and there's a lot more skeletons on the Duggars' closet... I just hope the M'kids and the rest of the little ones are okay. I really don't think Anna and the J'slaves will get out of that hell hole but who knows? Sometimes who we least expect, surprise us.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

I would agree with this if all the victims were close to his age. And I know he was raised to see females as sexual objects and housekeepers, in that order.

But a four year old? She was barely more than a baby.

You're right, and it's disgusting and pathological to sexualize a child that way. But, clinically, a pedophile is someone who PREFERS pre-pubescent children, and Josh took what he could get. I'm not sticking up for him in any way! I just don't think he is a pedophile who will continue to molest toddlers. Grown women or teen girls, on the other hand ... I can definitely see him being coercive, like Doug Phillips or Gothard. Again, this is just my opinion, I'm not evaluating him for the courts, and there is quite possibly more to the story.

[doubleT]

If he didn't know it involved little girls I imagine he's livid at both Josh and Jim Bob, and concerned for his granddaughters. Probably wishing he had asked more questions. Maybe he had assumed that since TLC was airing the show there couldn't be any really nasty skeletons in the closet?

Another huge red flag that maybe Pa Keller overlooked was why Josh was betrothed twice to a nice girl in a political fundie family and why didn't that work out? He should have made a call to Mr. Holt.

[bunnybunz]

You're right, and it's disgusting and pathological to sexualize a child that way. But, clinically, a pedophile is someone who PREFERS pre-pubescent children, and Josh took what he could get. I'm not sticking up for him in any way! I just don't think he is a pedophile who will continue to molest toddlers. Grown women or teen girls, on the other hand ... I can definitely see him being coercive, like Doug Phillips or Gothard. Again, this is just my opinion, I'm not evaluating him for the courts, and there is quite possibly more to the story.

But they were pre-pubescent, I really want to know what that "stern talking to" the pedophile state trooper Jim Bo referred him to consisted of... my guess is, "DON'T GET CAUGHT NEXT TIME"

[NoneandDoneinCali]

You now what? You could be right. Who knows what happened behind closed door. I suppose it's possible he molested his brothers too, but that was too shameful to admit. I wish everyone would get help, like REAL help, instead of further cloistering themselves in the fundie community.

[JenniferJuniper]

None of us really know what goes on behind other people's doors, but I've long suspected the Duggar home was a house of horrors just from all of the hints we could see. I didn't guess about the molestation, but it doesn't surprise me even though it is shocking.

That police report is just a tiny glimpse past the curtains. It's probably just the tip of the iceberg. How quickly the world learns more details depends on how soon one of the kids gets a publisher, and of course, which kid does the talking. It will happen, maybe not this year or the next, but it won't be too far into the distant future. Not after all this.

[SassyPants]

None of us really know what goes on behind other people's doors, but I've long suspected the Duggar home was a house of horrors just from all of the hints we could see. I didn't guess about the molestation, but it doesn't surprise me even though it is shocking.

That police report is just a tiny glimpse past the curtains. It's probably just the tip of the iceberg. How quickly the world learns more details depends on how soon one of the kids gets a publisher, and of course, which kid does the talking. It will happen, maybe not this year or the next, but it won't be too far into the distant future. Not after all this.

Agreed.

Although you do have to admit it takes a lot of cojones to sign your family up as the best Christians on the face of the Earth and to do a TV show (world wide) to promote such + to be so politically vocal about other groups of people being potentially harmful to children, when you have that gem stashed away in your family's coat closet.

[JenniferJuniper]

Agreed.

Although you do have to admit it takes a lot of cojones to sign your family up as the best Christians on the face of the Earth and to do a TV show (world wide) to promote such + to be so politically vocal about other groups of people being potentially harmful to children, when you have that gem stashed away in your family's coat closet.

It's even beyond big cojones. It's like some sort of shared sociopathic narcissism between Jim Bob and Michelle that they passed down to Josh. And this is why I don't doubt there is tons more stuff out there. These people are really, really sick.

And TLC deserves a ton of blame for creating and perpetuating this fraud. When the definitive book on the bizarre fakery that was reality TV is written in the future, 19 Kids will get the biggest chapter.

[bunnybunz]

in their 'official response' to the Josh grossness, when they said, "we're not a perfect family"

I'm pretty sure it was the first time the "we might not be perfect" notion had ever occurred to any of them. Before the general public found out about them harboring a sex criminal, they consistently claimed themselves to be an eternal paradigm of christian virtue without even blinking.

I wonder how well Jim Biodiot and Michelle also convinced their daughter's that they were perfect, divinely-inspired parents, and I wonder how much that made their getting molested by their brother and even bigger mind-fuck.

[antwan]

Anna didn't know. No way. She is 100% sold out for Jesus. She is NOT going to break a commandment by intentionally lying/deceiving. She and the Kellers were sold a Duggar's bill of goods. JB *knew* that these "country folk" (as he surely saw them) could be snowed. Anna has said that she was not initially attracted to Josh. But see, Josh was attracted to her, and JB saw an opportunity, an opportunity to right the wrong; get Anna on board and Josh moves forward as a "normal" husband and father. I'd bet my last dollar that JB "courted" the Kellers. Remember, the patriarch has much influence in choosing the spouse for a daughter. Pa Keller decided Josh, the Fresh Prince of Fundie-World, would raise the Keller status in ATI circles (and, well, there was all that money in such a catch.)

Remember when the only 2 concerns Pa Keller had about Pecan was 1) would he agree to accountability for his internet use by keeping his computer in a public room only and 2) would he accept as many children as God would give them. We see, here, that Pa Keller is a simple man. His thought processes are simple. He only had TWO concerns for David Waller, and one of them involved purity/safety/sexual enticement (internet usage). Noting this, are we to believe that he (and thus Anna) knew, and were hunky dory with it? Nope, I, for one, don't believe it. I believe JB sold them what he knew they would buy, a convoluted version of reality regarding Josh's "indiscretion", -just enough to back paddle, if need be, and say, "But I did tell you, Pa Keller, remember?", yet not enough that the Kellers/Anna had a clear sense of the gravity of said "indiscretion." :snooty:

D.U.G.G.A.R (Deceptive Unity Guards Gross Actions Revoltingly)

[jewbilee]

You're right, and it's disgusting and pathological to sexualize a child that way. But, clinically, a pedophile is someone who PREFERS pre-pubescent children, and Josh took what he could get. I'm not sticking up for him in any way! I just don't think he is a pedophile who will continue to molest toddlers. Grown women or teen girls, on the other hand ... I can definitely see him being coercive, like Doug Phillips or Gothard. Again, this is just my opinion, I'm not evaluating him for the courts, and there is quite possibly more to the story.

I share your opinion here. Was trying to express it to a friend today and it just kept coming out like I was defending/apologizing for Josh. So frustrating!

[Ella]

Which episode was it when Anna was told by someone off camera that they found a video of Josh at age 15 and they were going to show it to her? She looked nervous. It turned out to be him going on about planning to court and the virtues he was looking for in a future wife (purity). But even after she saw it, she looked on guard and her reaction was low key. She just smiled nervously and commented quietly that it's interesting to see a video of Josh when he was younger.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Coming from a clinical background, but not an expert on paraphilias, I think that it is tough to call whether Josh is a pedophile. I will say that pedophiles do often have separate age appropriate relationships. There is no data to suggest that those adult relationships are unsatisfactory. Having a current appropriate relationship that is mutually satisfying neither rules in or out the possibility that Josh has a separate compulsion to touch children.

What is clear is that Josh has a sense of entitlement. He is the heir to the throne. His parents are narcissistic and have gifted him with this trait. I think that the whole "saved" thing is taken to an extreme because of the underlying entitlement and narcissism. That said, he was also given sisters and told he was not entitled to them. They have parts that Josh was told were not his. Spoiled Josh, fueled by bursts of testosterone felt that he was entitled to know these parts. So yes, it was opportunity.

As for the broad span of ages, it may have been a curiosity about how little girls and bigger girls are different.

How his sexuality got bent from the experience, we do not know. Perhaps he learned that little girls parts are not interesting. Perhaps he found this quite interesting. We don't know.

I hope, for the family's sake, that it was just opportunity and an unfortunate set of events. I hope the girls were not blamed for being temptresses. I hope there has been true healing and forgiveness. But damage such as this affects everyone who is involved...Josh, his parents, his sibling- those touched and those untouched and even those not yet born. It has colored everything.

These people chose a public life and this is one of the consequences. It isn't all glamour and fandom. It is also public shaming. They were paid well and gave away their privacy. JB and M are squarely responsible for that. They will not be saved from their choices.

[DIRTYPILLOWS]

I think they bought the house in AR because Josh can't go a week with out seeing Ma and Pa.

I see Josh as being emotionally stunted except when he is hating others.

In my own counseling, my counselor told me for a youth to molest members of his own family *may suggest that he was molested as well. (She didn't say may, I am because this is speculation, she said most likely). Personally, this is why I think he is so hateful in his talks about the LGBT community. (I am not saying this community molests anymore than others). When I looked at the ATI crowd in the videos, so many of them looked like creeps. David Waller? Bill Gothard? Those two are such weird men. Why hasn't ol Bill ever been married and yet gives all this *sound advice for the fundies?

Did anyone see the episode where Josh's family leaves from D.C and Josh is crying in his driveway? (Men, speak up, please, would you actually cry and in front of someone recording you).

Also, I don't believe they knew this was about to break anymore than just a few days before. If they knew, I think TLC would not have had Josh there for the special, throwing around his dumbass remarks to his sisters. I don't think Mullet would have talked about the bikini and mowing the grass. At least I hope she wouldn't. I think Ben's reaction is that Jessa did tell him and he actually wants to take Josh's fat ass outside and cold cock him in the jowls and chins. I don't think Anna would have said "Daddy takes care of the north end".

I think Jim Bulb thinks he is some kind of Hillbilly Mafia.

[FarmOfKids]

I think the same as previous messages. No way Anna nor her parents were told Josh commited incest. Kellers may be poor and mad about Duggars but the father is working in prisons and I doubt he would have married ver daughter to a molester. I suspect the story was told as if Josh had had consensual sex with a girl out of the family.

Probably Kellers are now talking about forgiveness but do you really think they are sincere?

Slightly unrelated to your post but not totally. I just see people assuming they are poor from that one episode and I think everyone who still thinks the Keller are the poorest people out there should read this. It was written by one of Anna's sister's husband who left the cult.

duggarswithoutpity.blogspot.com/2009/01/insights-from-insider.html

I'm not sure this was the blog this was originally posted on.

[sense and nonsense]

Which episode was it when Anna was told by someone off camera that they found a video of Josh at age 15 and they were going to show it to her? She looked nervous. It turned out to be him going on about planning to court and the virtues he was looking for in a future wife (purity). But even after she saw it, she looked on guard and her reaction was low key. She just smiled nervously and commented quietly that it's interesting to see a video of Josh when he was younger.

I had a good laugh at this one.

What video would they put on the show that would even be remotely related to this incident? Why would they have a video?

Anna is no Einstein, but I'd give her more credit than that. She's not worried about seeing a molestation video while being recorded for the show.

If this incident has gotten into your head to this extent, maybe you need some time away from this family.

[Ella]

Okay, I can laugh at myself! I am distressed about this scandal.

There is said to have been video at the time the incidents were reported. If I were Anna and I knew that, my heart would start pounding if anyone told me that they found a video of Josh at 15 that they want to show me.