Confederate Flag Prom Photo

[CloakNDagger]

That is the thing though, it is ignorance and shouldn't be tolerated or encouraged. The truth needs to be told to people with no justifications allowed. The people who flew the Confederate flag flew it as a battle flag in a war where they were trying to start a country whose foundation was that black people were only fit for slavery and that it would be illegal to ever give black people equality. That is what it needs to be treated as.

Why exactly did you call the American flag the "Yankee" flag if you weren't trying to be pro-Confederacy? I have never heard anyone talk like that unless they were siding with the Confederacy.

Because WE as a nation, pre and post Civil War with a mainly Northern / Yankee government post Civil War were still racists willing to commit genocide against the Native Americans. Racial slavery is wrong. Man stealing is wrong. Genocide and the killing of women and children in their tepees and villages is worse.

[formergothardite]

I agree but that still doesn't explain why you called it the Yankee flag instead of the American flag. It is the American flag and at one point a bunch of states who were a wee bit racists and awful than the rest of the country got together and tried to form a country founded on racism. Not state rights, but slavery. You call it the Yankee flag, but I bet that there were a good many slave residence of the South who didn't see it that way because it didn't just stand for people in the North. It was and is the American flag. And yes, horrible, god awful stuff has been done under the American flag, but that is not really relevant to calling it the Yankee flag and people pretending the Confederate flag is something that it isn't.

[CloakNDagger]

That is the thing though, it is ignorance and shouldn't be tolerated or encouraged. The truth needs to be told to people with no justifications allowed. The people who flew the Confederate flag flew it as a battle flag in a war where they were trying to start a country whose foundation was that black people were only fit for slavery and that it would be illegal to ever give black people equality. That is what it needs to be treated as.

Why exactly did you call the American flag the "Yankee" flag if you weren't trying to be pro-Confederacy? I have never heard anyone talk like that unless they were siding with the Confederacy.

And our nation and flag started out the same way. The Constitution didn't even acknowledge them as full persons for voting purposes and the Northern states were heavily involved in the trafficking. Basic racism has remained a problem throughout nearly our entire history and I still think that it was more of an excuse to pick a fight with the South, than a genuine heart change.

I used "Yankee" because it was a Northern mentality in the leadership at the time and many of the same generals and soldiers who supposedly fought to free the slaves who also willingly killed the natives.

[RosyDaisy]

Bless your heart. No offense intended or taken.

Never tell a fellow southerner "bless your heart". We both know what that means. Now, back to my question. How much Confederate merchandise did VF stock. If you can't remember give your former boss Perry Coughlin a call and get back to me.

[shedemei]

Speaking of Native Americans, the Civil War, and different perceptions of historical figures and symbols:

[bBvideo 560,340:uck9k1z7]

[/bBvideo]

[Coco]

Don't laugh if this comes across as trying to be profound :lol: but here's something that seems true imo

In the view of the majority of Americans in 2015, One flag stands for honor, national pride (like in the Olympics or at games) and unity, it flies above us all, and the other flag stands for a lifestyle that chooses to give obvious offense.

Those kids knew that - their guns were also obviously offensive and out of place in a formal setting.

There's a proper way to take a stand and it isn't trying to hit people at the lowest point. The right way to stand for something, (like gun rights or rights for states) isn't by being offensive. It's in inspiring both sides to a higher place and collaboration. Nothing's gained by enforcing the old battle lines.

[CloakNDagger]

Don't laugh if this comes across as trying to be profound :lol: but here's something that seems true imo

In the view of the majority of Americans in 2015, One flag stands for honor, national pride (like in the Olympics or at games) and unity, it flies above us all, and the other flag stands for a lifestyle that chooses to give obvious offense.

Those kids knew that - their guns were also obviously offensive and out of place in a formal setting.

There's a proper way to take a stand and it isn't trying to hit people at the lowest point. The right way to stand for something, (like gun rights or rights for states) isn't by being offensive. It's in inspiring both sides to a higher place and collaboration. Nothing's gained by enforcing the old battle lines.

I'm sorry I ever posted in this thread, but my point was that in a fairly large portion of this culture, the symbolism is NOT thought of the same way and the perceived offense isn't intended. Misguided, sure. You want to educate them, fine, but make sure it's the whole story, and that you are also equally sensitive about stuff YOU may be blind to. The whole "golden rule" deal. Treat them the way you'd want to be treated if you were the one flying the offensive flag without harmful intent.

[CloakNDagger]

Speaking of Native Americans, the Civil War, and different perceptions of historical figures and symbols:

Hmmm.

[formergothardite]

I'm sorry I ever posted in this thread, but my point was that in a fairly large portion of this culture, the symbolism is NOT thought of the same way and the perceived offense isn't intended. Misguided, sure. You want to educate them, fine, but make sure it's the whole story, and that you are also equally sensitive about stuff YOU may be blind to. The whole "golden rule" deal. Treat them the way you'd want to be treated if you were the one flying the offensive flag without harmful intent.

I'm personally not being blind to how the American flag is most likely offensive to a great number of people. I'm not a patriotic person at all. If I was flying the American flag and offending people, I would want brutal honesty, not sugar coating and pretending things were not like they were. It is clear from your posts that you still view the Confederacy(I'm going to remind you again that it wasn't about state rights, it was about a nation whose cornerstone was slavery) as the good guys and that the rest of the country as the bad guys. You want the whole story, tell the whole story about how the Confederacy was founded on slavery and how the Confederate flag was only flown in battles where the fight was to start a nation where it would be illegal for black people to ever be free. That is the story you need to tell with the Confederate flag, don't give raise it to levels where it shouldn't be. Don't treat it as a sign of state rights, don't whitewash history.

[formergothardite]

Speaking of Native Americans, the Civil War, and different perceptions of historical figures and symbols:

[bBvideo 560,340:3p6obpk7]

[/bBvideo]

Thanks for sharing this. The problem with how we teach history in America is that we don't want to talk about the horrible things famous Americans have done.

[formergothardite]

I need to clarify my earlier post. I was rushed when I typed and didn't explain clearly. Yes, people could free slaves in the Confederacy, but the Confederate Constitution clearly stated that in no way should laws ever be passed that made enslaving black people illegal. Article 1 Section 9 Clause 4 of the Confederate constitutions prohibits the Confederate government from ever putting any restrictions on slavery.

No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed

For a country that was supposedly fighting for "state rights" the Confederacy had no issue with taking rights away from states when it came to slavery and Article IV Section 2 said that no state could decide to "interfere" with the institution of slavery.

Article IV Section 3 Clause 3 said that all territories and land that was acquired by the Confederacy would have to also be places that supported slavery. It didn't really matter if these areas didn't want slavery, the Confederate Constitution declared that in any are the Confederacy made into a state that slavery must be protected by Congress in those states.

The Confederate constitution interestingly enough kept the clause that was in the American constitution that allowed the government to call militia to suppress anyone who tried to stand up to the government. So basically they were prepared to fight their own Civil War if any of the states said "Fuck it we don't want to be a part of this country anymore." and tried to leave.

This is a good website that goes through the Confederate constitution and compares it to the American one.

Overall, the CSA constitution does not radically alter the federal system that was set up under the United States constitution. It is thus very debatable as to whether the CSA was a significantly more pro-"states' rights" country (as supporters claim) in any meaningful sense. At least three states rights are explicitly taken away- the freedom of states to grant voting rights to non-citizens, the freedom of states to outlaw slavery within their borders, and the freedom of states to trade freely with each other.

States only gain four minor rights under the Confederate system- the power to enter into treaties with other states to regulate waterways, the power to tax foreign and domestic ships that use their waterways, the power to impeach federally-appointed state officials, and the power to distribute "bills of credit." When people champion the cause of reclaiming state power from the feds, are matters like these at the tops of their lists of priorities?

As previously noted, the CSA constitution does not modify many of the most controversial (from a states' rights perspective) clauses of the American constitution, including the "Supremacy" clause (6-1-3), the "Commerce" clause (1-8-3) and the "Necessary and Proper" clause (1-8-18). Nor does the CSA take away the federal government's right to suspend habeus corpus or "suppress insurrections."

As far as slave-owning rights go, however, the document is much more effective. Indeed, CSA constitution seems to barely stop short of making owning slaves mandatory. Four different clauses entrench the legality of slavery in a number of different ways, and together they virtually guarantee that any sort of future anti-slave law or policy will be unconstitutional. People can claim the Civil War was "not about slavery" until the cows come home, but the fact remains that anyone who fought for the Confederacy was fighting for a country in which a universal right to own slaves was one of the most entrenched laws of the land.

.jjmccullough.com/CSA.htm

[CloakNDagger]

Now that is useful, thanks.

[formergothardite]

Now that is useful, thanks.

Your welcome.

[halcionne]

Your welcome.

I could watch you two debate all day. You're both so civil and open to new ideas.

:hug4:

[RosyDaisy]

Did any of that make you change your views CnD, or are you just paying lip service? IME, Confederate apologists don't up and change their views that quickly. Also, if this thread was about bashing the American Flag or "Yankee" bashing, would you have even posted?

By the way there is no such thing as perceived offense. If someone is offended by what you say, the intent is irrelevant. The fact is someone WAS offended. For the record anything I say to you is meant to be offensive, for the simple fact that I don't think you understand the meaning of the word.

[FloraKitty35]

There are a few people, not the majority at all, but a handful here and there, that fly or have plates with confederate flags on them in my home state. They never seem to appreciate it when I ask about the whole "southern pride" thing and remind them that WV split from VA to be part of the Union during the Civil War. Facts are such stubborn things always getting in the way of ignorant people's ideals.

How ironic, that the only successful attempt at secession was Virginia's western counties, seceding to form West Virginia.

[korts]

The Confederate flag is a traitor's flag. And they call themselves "patriots."

For what it's worth, I live in Alabama and am a retired Navy pilot.