Jill Duggar Dillard, Derick Dillard, & Baby Israel - Part 2

[withaj]

I have a tentative wedding date for Cathy and Rick of August 1978, but I don't remember where I got that info. I thought it was interesting how long they waited to have children, too.

Yep, August 20, 1978. Guessing you saw that in Rick's obituary -- not hard to find with a little google-fu. That's a full 10+ years married pre-babies!

[happy atheist]

Maybe this will help. As some posters are saying they do not leave the Duggar threads. This might explain what must seem like a a bolt from the blue on this thread. Or an annoying bicker. A poster did try to redirect folks to the relevant thread earlier.

!

{TEXT1}:

I purposefully posted the announcement in the Duggar subforum because it was directed specifically at the users who post here. All members of FJ are expected to read official announcements. That's where we make, you know, official announcements. If there are rule changes, that's where you'll find out about them. And if you don't read the announcements about rule changes and you break the rule, you could end up in the Prayer Closet where all comments need to be approved by a helpmeet before they appear on the site.

[mpheels]

I have a tentative wedding date for Cathy and Rick of August 1978, but I don't remember where I got that info. I thought it was interesting how long they waited to have children, too.

Rick was 50 when he died in 2008, so a 1978 wedding would have been somewhere in the 19-21 age range, which is young but pretty normal at the time. Getting married that young also seems less outrageous when both parties are simultaneously pursuing higher education, and they wait some time before having kids. (My parents are my point of reference for this - they married in 1972, ages 22 and 24, after only 6 months of friendship/dating. My mom says they would have married within a month of meeting if they had the money/resources. They then waited 7 years to start having kids. My father died when he was 42, but their 18 years of marriage were happy and stable.)

[MisUndrstd]

I hate to change the subject of the discussion going on here, but has anyone seen an acknowledgement from Derick or Jill about the most recent Nepal Earthquake that happened last night. I assume they will be making their usual "we are praying for Nepal" announcement but I'm kind of stunned that I haven't seen one yet. :shock:

[Lucy H]

yesyesyesyesyes. You have encapsulated the problem nicely.

I think a few of us here keep trying to make this point; I am now starting to wonder if the reason it's not getting through is that it is essentially a sociological/liberal/lefty way of describing things - attributing behaviours to structural issues rather than individual agency, the latter being rather more right wing/individualist. Perhaps our political and social contexts are informing our views on the level and tone of acceptable snark.

*returns to ivory tower*.

I'm a liberal lefty and old second wave feminist and I think that while their behaviors can be attributed to structural issues they are responsible for their choices. They are making what seem to be minor changes but for them are huge. We see Jessa wearing what obviously a strapless dress but calling it modest because it has a little cap sleeve. Just look at her wedding dress compared to Anna's. Anna would never have been able to wear a dress like that, it's the same with Jill and the exposed knees during the pedicure, that would never have happened a few years ago. Maybe Josh looks so sad these days because he is trapped by early marriage and lots of kids, maybe the FRC doesn't represent his views but feels it is his only option.

The adult kids are not the isolated fundies they were ten years ago she. The show began, they have a wide range of exposures and experiences that your average fundie kid has not had. I do expect more questioning that I would from an isolated fundie.

The problem is that their fame gives them a platform the average fundie does not have. When they put an aura of glamour (sexiest Duugar? Did anyone hear JB going crazy about that?) and respectability on their cult they help encourage and perpetuate something very dangerous. I don't cut them much slack.

For all the older kids, Josiah on up, I do hold them responsible when they do not at least nibble at the edges of questioning and change.

[Lucy H]

OMG YES. This is what I keep thinking when I see people accuse anyone who doesn't pile on with Jill and Jessa of being leghumpers.

My family was in ATI for awhile and even now...close to 20 yrs later and out of it for probably 15, my parents still hold on to some very Gothard-y attitudes about what kind of obedience/honor (words that are used interchangeably in that cult btw) due them from their ADULT children. And we didn't have it nearly as bad as the Duggar kids. There was spanking but no blanket training or plumbing line or chaperones or...you know...18 siblings. Even deviating slightly from the path my parents envisioned for me was enough to basically break our relationship for the better part of a decade. They essentially rained down fire and brimstone on my head, threatened me with hell and damnation and all sorts of eternal doom...

When people talk about Jill and Jessa and Josh like they're fully capable of just rejecting their background and leaving that lifestyle, you fail to account for the level of brainwashing these intellectual CHILDREN endured throughout their lifetime. They have been taught that honoring their father and mother (= OBEYING THEM EVEN IN ADULTHOOD) is the same thing as honoring God and failing to do so is the same as dishonoring/rejecting God. I've pointed out the same thing re: What It Means That Alyssa Bates Webster is Wearing Pants. Jill and Jessa (and Josh too) by virtue of their upbringing, have a severely diminished capacity for rejecting the lifestyle their parents chose for them. Even minor deviations may be construed by their famewhore parents as disobedience, apostasy and disgrace to the family, especially when their entire livelihood hinges on continuing the purity of the Duggar Brand.

So no...when I look at Jill and Jessa and see them largely perpetuating the same horrible cycles that were foisted on them by their parents, I do not see mature adults making bad decisions to continue in a damaging lifestyle. I see victims who have been victimized for so long that they cannot see a way out of that life - nor can they imagine trying.

NOW...when I look at the HUSBANDS of these girls, I feel rage. Because it's one thing if you were raised in this world and brainwashed from infancy to believe this garbage...it's another thing to be a relatively experienced, educated individual (Derick, I'm looking at you) and just dive into this cesspool headfirst. My theories are...either his education and experiences in life have not served him very well (and he is therefore stupid wet behind the ears and very very naive) or he's one of those Magic Pill thinkers and has some hole in his life that he's trying to fill with fundamentalism. Either way...Derick has a much greater responsibility for how he chooses to raise his son and direct his family than Jill...and from all appearances, he's letting JB (and Jill?) call the shots. I don't see that ending well...at least not for the Dilly kids.

Yes,,yes, yes about Derrick. Not sure that he has a greater responsibility than Jill but I agree with the rest of it. They are both responsible but he should be the one showing her the way. Sadly it appears that he is not.

[Lucy H]

One of the really great things about being a reasonably intelligent, adult human being is the ability to have multiple thoughts and beliefs on a matter, even if they are conflicting. It's OK to simultaneously:

1) Think Jill made some questionable decisions that increased risk for herself and her fetus/child

2) Recognize that Jill's decisions were largely influenced by her upbringing, both in terms of religion and lack of education

3) Believe that Jill's tends towards self involvement, which also contributed to her questionable decisions

4) Question whether Jill's self-involved nature is the result of the general Duggar/Gothard cult situation, of her parent's possible favoritism, or just a naturally occurring quirk that falls within the spectrum of normal personalities

5) Conclude that Jill is a human being who makes mistakes, just like all human beings, and those mistakes may or may not the result of her upbringing, so she probably doesn't deserve to be fed to the wolves (but it's still OK to point out that she did make mistakes)

Yes.

[mpheels]

I'm a liberal lefty and old second wave feminist and I think that while their behaviors can be attributed to structural issues they are responsible for their choices. They are making what seem to be minor changes but for them are huge. We see Jessa wearing what obviously a strapless dress but calling it modest because it has a little cap sleeve. Just look at her wedding dress compared to Anna's. Anna would never have been able to wear a dress like that, it's the same with Jill and the exposed knees during the pedicure, that would never have happened a few years ago. Maybe Josh looks so sad these days because he is trapped by early marriage and lots of kids, maybe the FRC doesn't represent his views but feels it is his only option.

The adult kids are not the isolated fundies they were ten years ago she. The show began, they have a wide range of exposures and experiences that your average fundie kid has not had. I do expect more questioning that I would from an isolated fundie.

The problem is that their fame gives them a platform the average fundie does not have. When they put an aura of glamour (sexiest Duugar? Did anyone hear JB going crazy about that?) and respectability on their cult they help encourage and perpetuate something very dangerous. I don't cut them much slack.

For all the older kids, Josiah on up, I do hold them responsible when they do not at least nibble at the edges of questioning and change.

I think they are nibbling, far more than many posters here want to acknowledge. I just re-watched the episode where Josh and Anna moved Michael out of their room and into the shared "kids' room" with Mack. The whole situation was just so normal, and was clear to me that Michael has never been blanket trained. He wasn't at all afraid of his parents, and actually acted like a normal toddler as he giggled and ran down the hall. I wouldn't be surprised if Josh and Anna use spanking as a punishment, but I do think they've toned down the physical punishment from what they grew up with.

As a side not re. cribgate (cribghazi?) - the crib Josh and Anna kept in their bed room in AR looks an awful lot like the crib Michelle and JB passed down to Jill. J&A bought a new crib with a white finish for Mack, but she was still sleeping in it when Michael was born. Michael used a brown crib in J&A's bedroom until right before Marcus was born. I do wonder if they borrowed it from JB & Michelle, and returned it when they moved.

[tapdancer493]

I hate to change the subject of the discussion going on here, but has anyone seen an acknowledgement from Derick or Jill about the most recent Nepal Earthquake that happened last night. I assume they will be making their usual "we are praying for Nepal" announcement but I'm kind of stunned that I haven't seen one yet. :shock:

They've both posted to their instagram pages, and i think the duggarfam page has too. I feel like there was a video somewhere as well (maybe the duggar official facebook page?)

[SassyPants]

They've both posted to their instagram pages, and i think the duggarfam page has too. I feel like there was a video somewhere as well (maybe the duggar official facebook page?)

In response to the earthquake today in Nepal?

[SassyPants]

I just looked. There is nothing posted on the Dillards' Instagram accounts regarding today's earthquake in Nepal.

[tapdancer493]

In response to the earthquake today in Nepal?

Oops, totally missed the *today* part...nope, haven't seen anything

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Watching the Izzy birth VSE, I was shocked/impressed when Derick pointed out the apartment complex his parents lived in when they were newlyweds. Derick said they lived there in the 1970's. Derick was born in 1989. So even if the "1970's" means 1979, his parents were married for 10-ish years before they had kids!

That may or may not have been for lack of trying. Two of my best friends in middle school were twins and they were the oldest living kids in their family. However, the mom had had 5 second trimester miscarriages, 1 stillbirth, and 1 daughter who lived for a week. Also, my current boss has been married 3 times. Her first was when she was 19. It took her until her 3rd marriage and until the age of 36 to give birth, despite actively trying in both her other marriages.

I'm not saying that they didn't purposefully wait at least 10 years, but there's a possibility that they wanted kids earlier and were just unsuccessful.

[somanybooks]

Regarding Derick's mouth looking funny--I think he had some kind of oral surgery or procedure to install a palate expander.

[halcionne]

I hate to change the subject of the discussion going on here, but has anyone seen an acknowledgement from Derick or Jill about the most recent Nepal Earthquake that happened last night. I assume they will be making their usual "we are praying for Nepal" announcement but I'm kind of stunned that I haven't seen one yet. :shock:

Nothing on their instagrams

[DaRealMVP]

I've stepped back from this thread because the arguments were getting a little heated for my taste (and I had nothing of substance to add), so I apologize if this has already been asked. Jill said something to the effect that the meconium staining was an emergency but not that much of an emergency (paraphrasing of course). My question is: can meconium staining be considered not a major emergency? I thought it was a thing that the baby needed to be out as soon as possible?

*note: this is not meant to be an attack on Jill or her birth plans. I'm asking as a woman who has never given birth/been pregnant, and am generally curious about what she meant by her statement.

[SassyPants]

I've stepped back from this thread because the arguments were getting a little heated for my taste (and I had nothing of substance to add), so I apologize if this has already been asked. Jill said something to the effect that the meconium staining was an emergency but not that much of an emergency (paraphrasing of course). My question is: can meconium staining be considered not a major emergency? I thought it was a thing that the baby needed to be out as soon as possible?

*note: this is not meant to be an attack on Jill or her birth plans. I'm asking as a woman who has never given birth/been pregnant, and am generally curious about what she meant by her statement.

I think mec staining, just like with any other facet of a labor/delivery is part of a bigger puzzle. When did the staining occur? with the rupture? How much mec was present [ large mec would equal fluid looking like pea soup], what else is happening? Are you pre or post term? Do you have multiples? Do you have a fever? When were you last examined by a professional? How long have you been in labor? What are the quality of your contractions?

I think the fact that Jill was post dates, had PROM and was + for GBS, the presence of mec was an indication that she needed a level of service higher than what she was currently receiving-

[halcionne]

Regarding Derick's mouth looking funny--I think he had some kind of oral surgery or procedure to install a palate expander.

JB mentioned Derick had a procedure done which made them miss an appearance on May 3, here: http://livestream.com/accounts/1340795/events/4022656 (appearance was discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=25811&p=933794#p933794) but I'm curious where you saw a palate expander mentioned? I only watched the first few minutes of that video, so maybe it's in there.

[Escapefromfundiedom]

I've stepped back from this thread because the arguments were getting a little heated for my taste (and I had nothing of substance to add), so I apologize if this has already been asked. Jill said something to the effect that the meconium staining was an emergency but not that much of an emergency (paraphrasing of course). My question is: can meconium staining be considered not a major emergency? I thought it was a thing that the baby needed to be out as soon as possible?

*note: this is not meant to be an attack on Jill or her birth plans. I'm asking as a woman who has never given birth/been pregnant, and am generally curious about what she meant by her statement.

I have no idea what Jill meant...but I did have meconium with my first baby. The L&D nurse broke my waters at 5cm to get labor moving quicker (I wish I had declined this tbh...but that's another story), meconium was present in the water. It was not treated as an emergency. The nurse just calmly informed us that the meconium meant that our baby would have to be quickly evaluated as soon as she was born for aspiration. They had me hooked up to monitors and all other signs were that labor was fine - no heart rate issues, etc.

Jill had a pretty risky trifecta of GBS+, prolonged rupture of membranes and meconium. Oh yeah and her baby was either frank breech or transverse. Those are all things I am pretty sure we "know for sure" based on the People article and stuff Jill has said...not speculation (the exact type of breech position is a bit more sketchy...I don't know...someone else can chime in on that).

So yeah...I have no idea what she meant exactly, but I think in general, in the absence of additional signs of distress or complication mec in and of itself is not considered a big emergency. It just needs the baby needs additional evaluation immediately at delivery. In my case, there was a NICU team present and they immediately whisked my daughter away, put tubes down her throat and suctioned her out.

That whole "in the absence of additional signs" is where we get into frustrating territory with Jill...but in the end, despite some possibly significant risks taken, she and her baby are alive and healthy and hopefully she is at peace with her birth experience.

[GunnBroker]

My question is: can meconium staining be considered not a major emergency? I thought it was a thing that the baby needed to be out as soon as possible?

*note: this is not meant to be an attack on Jill or her birth plans. I'm asking as a woman who has never given birth/been pregnant, and am generally curious about what she meant by her statement.

I'm not a medical professional, so only from my own experience...

This was 21 years ago but I was 10 days over due and no progress, baby wan't planning on coming out any time soon, didn't "drop" into my pelvis at all. He was just fine in there according to him. :D So I went in to be induced and when they broke the water, there was meconium present. It seemed like a *big important thing* to my health care providers. They were definitely concerned.

When labor didn't progress, even with Pitocin, since it had been a long while (don't recall how long but maybe 12 hours?) they actually ran saline back IN, I guess to provide some swimming room, I dunno. [As an aside to earlier comments up-thread, I had lots of vag exams too, so even though there might be risk of introducting infection, it was still a part of what was necessary to check progress.]

Upon birth, the meconium was determined to have been aspirated (inhaled) by my baby so he was on IV antibiotics for a week as a precaution. Ultimately, no problems beyond that.

(edited because I missed an end-tag in posting)

[DaRealMVP]

Thank you everyone!

[SassyPants]

Just a side note, some babies who inhale meconium into their lungs if they are not suctioned out well, before they take their first breath, can become very, very sick- infection, pneumonia, respiratory distress all requiring intensive therapies.

[VelociRapture]

Thank you everyone!

Just wanted to tell you not to hesitate to ask a question or chime in about stuff you're curious about. Most people here are more than happy to answer questions or point you in the right direction. :)

[apandaaries]

I'm not a medical professional, so only from my own experience...

This was 21 years ago but I was 10 days over due and no progress, baby wan't planning on coming out any time soon, didn't "drop" into my pelvis at all. He was just fine in there according to him. :D So I went in to be induced and when they broke the water, there was meconium present. It seemed like a *big important thing* to my health care providers. They were definitely concerned.

When labor didn't progress, even with Pitocin, since it had been a long while (don't recall how long but maybe 12 hours?) they actually ran saline back IN, I guess to provide some swimming room, I dunno. [As an aside to earlier comments up-thread, I had lots of vag exams too, so even though there might be risk of introducting infection, it was still a part of what was necessary to check progress.]

Upon birth, the meconium was determined to have been aspirated (inhaled) by my baby so he was on IV antibiotics for a week as a precaution. Ultimately, no problems beyond that.

(edited because I missed an end-tag in posting)

Another non-medical professional, but one who is extremely interested in such topics. Rebecca Walker (Alice's daughter) discusses her son's meconium aspiration and other topics in Baby Love. She makes it sound frightening, and actually, it is. Meconium aspiration is (*ahem*) serious shit. (I'm so sorry! I could not help myself. Send me to the Prayer Closet for reflection.)

Like Escapefromfundiedom, I let my waters be broken during the delivery to "speed things up." My OBGYN broke the waters, and thought he saw meconium. He did NOT mention this to me at the time (one of my many complaints about him). When I finally delivered, six unmedicated hours of back labor later, with a stern-faced NICU nurse present (we talked with her the next day and LOVED her, but the doc didn't explain why she was there nor introduce her, and it was awkward--to say the least--to deliver in front of her), we discovered that no meconium was present. My lovely daughter pooped on my stomach right after birth, though!

For a trained midwife, or a midwife in training, meconium aspiration is a serious enough threat to head over to a hospital with an INCREDIBLE NICU. The timeline is fuzzy on that with regards to Jill, though, thanks to competing media outlets and mainstream backlash.

[sbroh]

I can't believe she still wanted a home birth being GBS+.

Or do they bring iv antibiotics to home births?