Jill Duggar Dillard, Derick Dillard, & Baby Israel - Part 2

[apandaaries]

Nut and Nutschelle appeared on the 700 club this morning. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=25811&p=939978#p939978

The part that's relevant to this thread is in the Duggar family bio on 700's website-- cbn.com/700club/guests/bios/Duggars_051515.aspx -- another birth story, with new details!!!!!! At least I think they're new. :?

and

I don't remember it being the day Iz was born? *off to check* Edit: Okay, the courtship was announced April 13, but they stated it began on April 6. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=25619&p=913833&hilit=marjorie+jackson#p913833

Hahaha! Such excellent sleuthing! How many times are they going to subtly alter their story? Posterior position suddenly switches without anyone noticing (my daughter was born sunny side-up after laboring for many, many hours in the posterior position, but I would have noticed if her little six lb., two oz. body had flipped) until the doctor checked? No pitocin, but JB clearly states on the special that she's getting pitocin? Though I think him an idiot and a fool, I also think he was very interested in ALL of Michelle's labors -- as he should be -- and would know what pitocin is and does.

Interesting that they add that she hadn't dilated. So much of labor is really knowing your body and also knowing how to get your head and thoughts out of the way to let your body do what must be done. Coupled with upbringing and the newness of her and Derick's relationship, I'm going to posit that Jill is still learning about her body and maybe is a more of a control freak than we see. I'm also guessing that she was worried about birth (totally normal feeling to have) and had a hard time relaxing...if it's true that she really hadn't dilated at ALL after all those hours, which is another interesting claim.

[mpheels]

Hahaha! Such excellent sleuthing! How many times are they going to subtly alter their story? Posterior position suddenly switches without anyone noticing (my daughter was born sunny side-up after laboring for many, many hours in the posterior position, but I would have noticed if her little six lb., two oz. body had flipped) until the doctor checked? No pitocin, but JB clearly states on the special that she's getting pitocin? Though I think him an idiot and a fool, I also think he was very interested in ALL of Michelle's labors -- as he should be -- and would know what pitocin is and does.

Interesting that they add that she hadn't dilated. So much of labor is really knowing your body and also knowing how to get your head and thoughts out of the way to let your body do what must be done. Coupled with upbringing and the newness of her and Derick's relationship, I'm going to posit that Jill is still learning about her body and maybe is a more of a control freak than we see. I'm also guessing that she was worried about birth (totally normal feeling to have) and had a hard time relaxing...if it's true that she really hadn't dilated at ALL after all those hours, which is another interesting claim.

I don't see where the 700 club version is any different than the VSE version. Both versions say Jill initially refused pitocin and epidural, then later accepted them.

[colossians3]

Hahaha! Such excellent sleuthing! How many times are they going to subtly alter their story? Posterior position suddenly switches without anyone noticing (my daughter was born sunny side-up after laboring for many, many hours in the posterior position, but I would have noticed if her little six lb., two oz. body had flipped) until the doctor checked? No pitocin, but JB clearly states on the special that she's getting pitocin? Though I think him an idiot and a fool, I also think he was very interested in ALL of Michelle's labors -- as he should be -- and would know what pitocin is and does.

Interesting that they add that she hadn't dilated. So much of labor is really knowing your body and also knowing how to get your head and thoughts out of the way to let your body do what must be done. Coupled with upbringing and the newness of her and Derick's relationship, I'm going to posit that Jill is still learning about her body and maybe is a more of a control freak than we see. I'm also guessing that she was worried about birth (totally normal feeling to have) and had a hard time relaxing...if it's true that she really hadn't dilated at ALL after all those hours, which is another interesting claim.

Jill initially declined the Pitocin and epidural but then opted for it. This article is written in a confusing way as if they are trying to get you to not pay attention to some things but focus on others.

[SassyPants]

I had heard a similar version before, including the 20 hours of contractions 1 min apart and the heart rate decels. The posterior positioning and the lack of dilation are new twists. I wonder why they don't just stick with one story?

What is that saying, for every 1 lie told, 4 more are needed to cover it up?

[SassyPants]

I think the Duggars approach contributes to speculation.

[Fascinated]

By the way, once again Michelle doesn't quite muster the tears for her child. I'm not buying at all that she was 'doing everything she could not to cry'. I call bullshit on that. How about 'I had to leave the room for a few moments so Jill wouldn't see me cry'?

[halcionne]

I think the Duggars approach contributes to speculation.

Very much so. Like this quote from the video:

"(jill) is studying to finish up her midwifery license"

Michelle Duggar said that. On a TV interview with a good sized Christian viewership. On May 15, 2015. Two months after her instructor lost her license, and Jill, consequently, lost her apprenticeship.

Just to be clear. 8-)

edited for MOAR clarity, and accuracy

[MisUndrstd]

I do hope that the Duggar family will see the necessity for a hospital delivery for at least the 1st child births, which tend to be the most difficult. I know they believe that home births are more natural, which they are and I understand that they want home births because it is more relaxed but one thing they are forgetting that back in the old days when home births were just about the only option, a lot of women and children died during childbirth. Home births are not without a significant risk to both the infant and the mother. Unfortunately, things can go wrong very quickly during birth and I just really feel that the Duggar's put their children and future grandchildren at a significant risk by encouraging sub par prenatal care and home birthing. Sure, go to the hospital for the first baby, if everything goes well and no complications then try for the subsequent births at home.

[MisUndrstd]

I had heard a similar version before, including the 20 hours of contractions 1 min apart and the heart rate decels. The posterior positioning and the lack of dilation are new twists. I wonder why they don't just stick with one story?

What is that saying, for every 1 lie told, 4 more are needed to cover it up?

I bet if the real truth was to be known that the doctor suggested a C-section very early after Jill's hospital arrival and Jill refused it. I don't work L&D but I know several nurses that do and I'm sure a mother who has been in active labor over 48 hours, with merconium staining and not dilating would have been advised to have a C-section. It took for Israel to have obvious and very scary signs of distress to convince Jill that a C-section was needed. I believe in people sticking to their convictions but when you are making decisions for an infant in distress and those decisions you make are now life-threatening to the infant than you really need a big butt whooping.

[SassyPants]

I do hope that the Duggar family will see the necessity for a hospital delivery for at least the 1st child births, which tend to be the most difficult. I know they believe that home births are more natural, which they are and I understand that they want home births because it is more relaxed but one thing they are forgetting that back in the old days when home births were just about the only option, a lot of women and children died during childbirth. Home births are not without a significant risk to both the infant and the mother. Unfortunately, things can go wrong very quickly during birth and I just really feel that the Duggar's put their children and future grandchildren at a significant risk by encouraging sub par prenatal care and home birthing. Sure, go to the hospital for the first baby, if everything goes well and no complications then try for the subsequent births at home.

I think what needs to happen with the Duggars, and this applies to all areas of their lives, they need to start thinking as individuals- start problem solving and making decisions on a case by case basis using logic and reasoning in addition to their Gothard principles.

Maybe Jessa will end up like Alyssa W- carry small, stay active and pop that baby right out 2 days days before it is due [i know nothing of AW's experience]- and if that's the case, maybe a home birth is a good fit/decision for someone in that situation.

The Duggars need to start thinking for themselves before something really bad happens. You would have thought that the experiences with Josie and Jubilee would have left some sort of impression.

[MisUndrstd]

I think what needs to happen with the Duggars, and this applies to all areas of their lives, they need to start thinking as individuals- start problem solving and making decisions on a case by case basis using logic and reasoning in addition to their Gothard principles.

Maybe Jessa will end up like Alyssa W- carry small, stay active and pop that baby right out 2 days days before it is due [i know nothing of AW's experience]- and if that's the case, maybe a home birth is a good fit/decision for someone in that situation.

The Duggars need to start thinking for themselves before something really bad happens. You would have thought that the experiences with Josie and Jubilee would have left some sort of impression.

I really hope Jessa will look at Jill's bad birthing experience and decide to have a hospital birth. I think Ben will not argue with anything Jessa decides so he is not going to run interference if she decides to have a hospital birth. The down side of it is: health insurance? Do the Duggar's get health insurance through TLC? If JB has a family plan then Jessa would most likely no longer be on it because she is married. So either they are going without insurance or they are buying their own plan which can be extremely expensive and have crappy coverage.

[EmmieJ]

I really hope Jessa will look at Jill's bad birthing experience and decide to have a hospital birth. I think Ben will not argue with anything Jessa decides so he is not going to run interference if she decides to have a hospital birth. The down side of it is: health insurance? Do the Duggar's get health insurance through TLC? If JB has a family plan then Jessa would most likely no longer be on it because she is married. So either they are going without insurance or they are buying their own plan which can be extremely expensive and have crappy coverage.

Re health insurance. I do not believe the Duggars get health coverage through TLC. They are not employees of TLC. They have a contract with TLC, in which they get paid X dollars per season, or maybe X dollars per episode. It is then up to the Duggars to spend that money however they want.

JimBob used to talk about having some high deductible health coverage. Hopefully he still does. I did some brief Googling and see that Arkansas does have a healthcare marketplace website (Obamacare), so the adult Duggar children could apply for their own coverage (assuming they are getting some portion of the TLC money). I didn't go further into that website to try to figure out the various plans and monthly costs, but subsidies are available for those who meet the income criteria. I would think Ben and Jessa could qualify for a plan that wouldn't cost them too much. But that would be the evil Obamacare, so maybe they'd rather be uninsured than have that.

[apandaaries]

It's that they would consider giving pitocin to a transverse breech baby, or that they didn't notice the baby was in the wrong position for pitocin, or the 20 hours of laboring without progression THEN going to the hospital, but the whole experience still adding up to almost 70 hours....The shifting storyline is what interests and concerns me. I'm interested cuz it all seems fishy, and I'm concerned cuz you KNOW there are some ignorant people out there idolizing the Duggars and emulating their actions.

Women can birth however they choose, but if they decide to publicize it, honest discussion would be best. It benefits no one to pretend, and it potentially encourages behaviors and actions which could endanger those who try to follow in their footsteps. There were a slew of complicating issues here which were solved by medical care -- not prayer and a backwoods midwife.

ETA: For the record, I'm not anti-midwife AT ALL, but I do think that there is a certain percentage of deliveries which require medical intervention if both mother and baby are to survive. Jill and Izzy were one of those cases, I think. To attempt as long as they did with him in the position he was in -- so many problems with that, I don't even know where to begin.

[halcionne]

It's that they would consider giving pitocin to a transverse breech baby, or that they didn't notice the baby was in the wrong position for pitocin, or the 20 hours of laboring without progression THEN going to the hospital, but the whole experience still adding up to almost 70 hours....The shifting storyline is what interests and concerns me. I'm interested cuz it all seems fishy, and I'm concerned cuz you KNOW there are some ignorant people out there idolizing the Duggars and emulating their actions.

Women can birth however they choose, but if they decide to publicize it, honest discussion would be best. It benefits no one to pretend, and it potentially encourages behaviors and actions which could endanger those who try to follow in their footsteps. There were a slew of complicating issues here which were solved by medical care -- not prayer and a backwoods midwife.

ETA: For the record, I'm not anti-midwife AT ALL, but I do think that there is a certain percentage of deliveries which require medical intervention if both mother and baby are to survive. Jill and Izzy were one of those cases, I think. To attempt as long as they did with him in the position he was in -- so many problems with that, I don't even know where to begin.

We have so much contradictory information, but people (myself included) are trying to work with what they've said. A week or so ago, I went over the People story with my roommate and she asked what if Jill had been mistaken about her water breaking. Huge chunks of the story would be less alarming, eg going back to sleep, trip to chiro, pedicure, spicy lunch, long walk to start labor. And it would shave many hours off the 70 hour total. It's actually 68 hours if her water broke at 3:45 April 4 and she delivered at 23:50 on April 6, but whatever, Jill.

My point is that I'm willing to do some pretty extreme mental gymnastics to make sense out of what they've reported. So here's a question about a hypothetical scenario based on some of what we've discussed--I'll remove Jill's name to emphasize that this is not my guess, just some pondering: A woman who is emphatic about having a low-intervention homebirth and, in that vein, has had minimal cervix checks, presents at the hospital after 20 hours with little progress or labor started and stopped or whatever, is it appropriate for the OB to offer Pitocin without checking her dilation and the baby's position? It doesn't seem like a good idea, based on what I've read here.

tldr re bolded: could this be evidence that the baby really did flip, as unlikely as that seems? Not that I believe the family's statements. I'm going in circles here, sorry!

[MisUndrstd]

I think what needs to happen with the Duggars, and this applies to all areas of their lives, they need to start thinking as individuals- start problem solving and making decisions on a case by case basis using logic and reasoning in addition to their Gothard principles.

Maybe Jessa will end up like Alyssa W- carry small, stay active and pop that baby right out 2 days days before it is due [i know nothing of AW's experience]- and if that's the case, maybe a home birth is a good fit/decision for someone in that situation.

The Duggars need to start thinking for themselves before something really bad happens. You would have thought that the experiences with Josie and Jubilee would have left some sort of impression.

Without a doubt I agree with you. Some women seem to breeze through childbirth and other women have a very difficult time with difficult deliveries, how does a woman know how her childbirth will be if she has never had a child? I think it is dangerous for women to look at other women who have had easy deliveries and expect it will go the same way. Good pre-natal care are really a must have and the ability to choose for yourself is imperative.

[Lucy H]

I bet if the real truth was to be known that the doctor suggested a C-section very early after Jill's hospital arrival and Jill refused it. I don't work L&D but I know several nurses that do and I'm sure a mother who has been in active labor over 48 hours, with merconium staining and not dilating would have been advised to have a C-section. It took for Israel to have obvious and very scary signs of distress to convince Jill that a C-section was needed. I believe in people sticking to their convictions but when you are making decisions for an infant in distress and those decisions you make are now life-threatening to the infant than you really need a big butt whooping.

I think you are right in saying that the doc and probably the nurses knew that Jill needed a c-section long before she agreed. I am sure the doc would have spoken with her about it but am guessing she refused until it was clear she had no choice.

I had a c-section after a 24 hour labor and three hours of pushing. The doc had suggested it hours before I agreed but my baby never showed signs of distress and was not in any danger. A 10' 13" she was just too big.

[Lucy H]

I really hope Jessa will look at Jill's bad birthing experience and decide to have a hospital birth. I think Ben will not argue with anything Jessa decides so he is not going to run interference if she decides to have a hospital birth. The down side of it is: health insurance? Do the Duggar's get health insurance through TLC? If JB has a family plan then Jessa would most likely no longer be on it because she is married. So either they are going without insurance or they are buying their own plan which can be extremely expensive and have crappy coverage.

Under the ACA children can stay on their parent's insurance until they are 26 even if married. It is possible that Jessa is still on JB's insurance.

[apandaaries]

I have delivered one baby, but she was posterior position throughout the labor. She arrived "sunny side-up," and was only 6 lbs., 2 oz. I labored 36 hours; the final 6 were after the waters were broken by the OBGYN. They were HELL; the amniotic sac cushioned a lot of the earlier contractions. I didn't even know that kind of intense pain existed in this world to live through.

But I can assure you that if my teeny tiny baby (by comparison to Izzy -- and she was smallish in general) had flipped or done other gymnastics, I would have known. And it would have been even more uncomfortable. He was nearly 10 lbs. She would have noticed him flipping. It probably would have been externally visible! He's a BIG baby. Everyone would have known that something happened.

The other aspect is EVERY woman I've known who's had a breech presentation noticed early on and gone for an external inversion has said it felt like nothing they've ever experienced. There's not a lot of extra room at the end of a pregnancy. I could barely eat because my stomach could hardly expand. And we're expected to think that no one noticed a 9 lb., 10 oz. baby turning sideways?

BRB -- have to go buy this bridge in Brooklyn! Someone's selling it cheap. :roll:

ETA: I do have one friend whose first birth was also posterior position. Her baby twisted at the end so she was NOT born sunny side-up. That mama ALSO felt her baby move during labor. While I do suspect that her fundie upbringing has left Jill out of touch with her body, I DO think she would notice that kind of extremely obvious movement.

[SassyPants]

We have so much contradictory information, but people (myself included) are trying to work with what they've said. A week or so ago, I went over the People story with my roommate and she asked what if Jill had been mistaken about her water breaking. Huge chunks of the story would be less alarming, eg going back to sleep, trip to chiro, pedicure, spicy lunch, long walk to start labor. And it would shave many hours off the 70 hour total. It's actually 68 hours if her water broke at 3:45 April 4 and she delivered at 23:50 on April 6, but whatever, Jill.

My point is that I'm willing to do some pretty extreme mental gymnastics to make sense out of what they've reported. So here's a question about a hypothetical scenario based on some of what we've discussed--I'll remove Jill's name to emphasize that this is not my guess, just some pondering: A woman who is emphatic about having a low-intervention homebirth and, in that vein, has had minimal cervix checks, presents at the hospital after 20 hours with little progress or labor started and stopped or whatever, is it appropriate for the OB to offer Pitocin without checking her dilation and the baby's position? It doesn't seem like a good idea, based on what I've read here.

tldr re bolded: could this be evidence that the baby really did flip, as unlikely as that seems? Not that I believe the family's statements. I'm going in circles here, sorry!

I think the 700 club version mentioning posterior presentation opened the door to the actual truth. As a former nurse and a person who had a similar labor and delivery, this is my conclusion. Ruptured membranes, lots of time at home. Jill saw the mec staining and conferred with her MW and decided to go the hospital. She got to the hospital, was examined and offered Pitocin and an epidural, which she refused. Based on BOTH her exam AND in conjunction with Jill's account of PROM and laboring for 2 days at home, the MDs decided that Izzy was likely in a posterior position.

A posterior position is less favorable because the largest part of the head is not aligned with the cervix for best dilation results.

Jill continued to labor, with little results for her efforts and was quite tired. Eventually J and D agreed to Pitocin and an epidural- at this point Izzy had HR drops, it often happens.

After enough HR drops, the staff knew that Izzy was not tolerating the Pitocin, labor was not progressing and a C-section was done.

First he was breech, then transverse and now posterior.

My bet is he was posterior the entire time. My first was like this too. Even with a small baby, I ended up with a c-section. My MD told me that I would have been pushing for hours with how she was positioned. She also did not tolerate the dose of Pitocin needed to produce dilation.

I think it's sad that multiple versions of her birth story have been released. It appears as if they are embarrassed and are trying to find any reason why her delivery did not go as planned. It's sad that they do not realize that most people understand that reality is sometimes different from the ideal. Too bad they are so limited and sheltered that they have difficulty with that concept.

[Mama Mia]

We have so much contradictory information, but people (myself included) are trying to work with what they've said. A week or so ago, I went over the People story with my roommate and she asked what if Jill had been mistaken about her water breaking. Huge chunks of the story would be less alarming, eg going back to sleep, trip to chiro, pedicure, spicy lunch, long walk to start labor. And it would shave many hours off the 70 hour total. It's actually 68 hours if her water broke at 3:45 April 4 and she delivered at 23:50 on April 6, but whatever, Jill.

My point is that I'm willing to do some pretty extreme mental gymnastics to make sense out of what they've reported. So here's a question about a hypothetical scenario based on some of what we've discussed--I'll remove Jill's name to emphasize that this is not my guess, just some pondering: A woman who is emphatic about having a low-intervention homebirth and, in that vein, has had minimal cervix checks, presents at the hospital after 20 hours with little progress or labor started and stopped or whatever, is it appropriate for the OB to offer Pitocin without checking her dilation and the baby's position? It doesn't seem like a good idea, based on what I've read here.

tldr re bolded: could this be evidence that the baby really did flip, as unlikely as that seems? Not that I believe the family's statements. I'm going in circles here, sorry!

I may have missed it, but I'm surprised no one has discussed that Jordyn flipped to transverse , and it wasnt discovered until Michelle was at the hospital in labor. It was just discussed on the Duggar Births special.

And Michelle had not been going for a home birth. The Dr. used the term "flipped" and they had been planninfg for as regular vaginal delivery beforehand, so obviously she had been head down at her last check. She was in active labor and 4 cm dilated when it was discovered

[mpheels]

I think the 700 club version mentioning posterior presentation opened the door to the actual truth. As a former nurse and a person who had a similar labor and delivery, this is my conclusion. Ruptured membranes, lots of time at home. Jill saw the mec staining and conferred with her MW and decided to go the hospital. She got to the hospital, was examined and offered Pitocin and an epidural, which she refused. Based on BOTH her exam AND in conjunction with Jill's account of PROM and laboring for 2 days at home, the MDs decided that Izzy was likely in a posterior position.

A posterior position is less favorable because the largest part of the head is not aligned with the cervix for best dilation results.

Jill continued to labor, with little results for her efforts and was quite tired. Eventually J and D agreed to Pitocin and an epidural- at this point Izzy had HR drops, it often happens.

After enough HR drops, the staff knew that Izzy was not tolerating the Pitocin, labor was not progressing and a C-section was done.

First he was breech, then transverse and now posterior.

My bet is he was posterior the entire time. My first was like this too. Even with a small baby, I ended up with a c-section. My MD told me that I would have been pushing for hours with how she was positioned. She also did not tolerate the dose of Pitocin needed to produce dilation.

I think it's sad that multiple versions of her birth story have been released. It appears as if they are embarrassed and are trying to find any reason why her delivery did not go as planned. It's sad that they do not realize that most people understand that reality is sometimes different from the ideal. Too bad they are so limited and sheltered that they have difficulty with that concept.

I think that is as realistic and close to the truth as we'll ever get with the internet speculation bus. I would go a step further and say I suspect Izzy didn't "flip" so to speak. To me, the most likely scenario is that he was posterior and never engaged. At some point he shifted just enough to be considered transverse breech.

Did Jill ever mention that he was breech, other than the transverse position right before the c-section? I think some here have assumed frank breech, but the only "official" mention of breech has been transverse breech.

[SassyPants]

Professionally speaking, I have never heard "transverse breech" used. What I have heard is vertex=anterior or posterior, transverse, breech= footling breech (1 or more feet), frank breech (butt), facial, but never have I heard "transverse breech". Is there also a transverse vertex? I have been retired for 1 year, so maybe this is new terminology?

ETA- A goggle search finds nothing for a "transverse breech" presentation.

[mpheels]

Professionally speaking, I have never heard "transverse breech" used. What I have heard is vertex=anterior or posterior, transverse, breech= footling breech (1 or more feet), frank breech (butt), facial, but never have I heard "transverse breech". Is there also a transverse vertex? I have been retired for 1 year, so maybe this is new terminology?

ETA- A goggle search finds nothing for a "transverse breech" presentation.

Someone (can't remember who) in one of the Izzy birth discussions mentioned "breech" sometimes being used for any presentation other than vertex, which is where I got the phrasing. I'm not a clinical provider - I study health care systems from an academic perspective, and my expertise is in emergency medicine and trauma care, so I will defer to others who know more about OB-GYN than I do.

I think the People article was the original source of the breech description - they actually used the phrase transverse breech, and specify "sideways and upside down." I can easily seeing that being a lost in translation thing. Jill says baby was transverse, one writer at People extrapolates that to transverse/breech, and then another writer further extrapolates the sideways/upside down description. I still think vertex/posterior, with slight shift to transverse is the most likely scenario.

(http://www.people.com/article/19-kids-c ... aby-israel)

[Arrowoftruth]

We have so much contradictory information, but people (myself included) are trying to work with what they've said. A week or so ago, I went over the People story with my roommate and she asked what if Jill had been mistaken about her water breaking. Huge chunks of the story would be less alarming, eg going back to sleep, trip to chiro, pedicure, spicy lunch, long walk to start labor. And it would shave many hours off the 70 hour total. It's actually 68 hours if her water broke at 3:45 April 4 and she delivered at 23:50 on April 6, but whatever, Jill.

My point is that I'm willing to do some pretty extreme mental gymnastics to make sense out of what they've reported. So here's a question about a hypothetical scenario based on some of what we've discussed--I'll remove Jill's name to emphasize that this is not my guess, just some pondering: A woman who is emphatic about having a low-intervention homebirth and, in that vein, has had minimal cervix checks, presents at the hospital after 20 hours with little progress or labor started and stopped or whatever, is it appropriate for the OB to offer Pitocin without checking her dilation and the baby's position? It doesn't seem like a good idea, based on what I've read here.

tldr re bolded: could this be evidence that the baby really did flip, as unlikely as that seems? Not that I believe the family's statements. I'm going in circles here, sorry!

20 hours is what I think they said in the People magazine article but 48 hours was what was presented on the show. To me that was the biggest lie.

[halcionne]

20 hours is what I think they said in the People magazine article but 48 hours was what was presented on the show. To me that was the biggest lie.

It's like a game of three card monty, FFS. Which is why we think they're con artists. :D