Jill Duggar Dillard, Derick Dillard, & Baby Israel - Part 2

[SassyPants]

Well, being a con artist or liar certainly does fly in the face of the purported devout, modest, Jesus and Bible loving, godly people with servants' hearts living their sweet and precious lives for the Lord.

[Ali]

Without a doubt I agree with you. Some women seem to breeze through childbirth and other women have a very difficult time with difficult deliveries, how does a woman know how her childbirth will be if she has never had a child? I think it is dangerous for women to look at other women who have had easy deliveries and expect it will go the same way. Good pre-natal care are really a must have and the ability to choose for yourself is imperative.

Also, it is not same to assume that future deliveries will be easy because prior deliveries were easy.

[SassyPants]

Also, it is not same to assume that future deliveries will be easy because prior deliveries were easy.

And Jill could look to Anna to affirm ^. Look at how much harder Michael's birth appeared to be VS Mac's birth.

[DarkAnts]

Jessa may be able to have a home birth. She needs to be low risk. I think Jill's risk went up every day she was over due. I would support anyone having a home birth if the have the right support team including a nurse midwife. Home births are for the most part less expensive and are safe for women with a low risk of complications.

[apandaaries]

If I'm reading what you're writing correctly, Michelle's case still would have involved flipping with an amniotic sac. Right? She had been at a regular check-up and told all was well. Later, when she went in at 4 cm, they discovered she'd flipped. So she'd had some time to do so. Maybe Michelle didn't notice with the amniotic sac. All my anecdotal evidence involves women who've had far fewer than 19 kids. :D

Jill's latest storyline is that the baby flipped after the water broke. Things feel very different without that watery cushion, especially with a nearly 10 lb. baby.

[mpheels]

If I'm reading what you're writing correctly, Michelle's case still would have involved flipping with an amniotic sac. Right? She had been at a regular check-up and told all was well. Later, when she went in at 4 cm, they discovered she'd flipped. So she'd had some time to do so. Maybe Michelle didn't notice with the amniotic sac. All my anecdotal evidence involves women who've had far fewer than 19 kids. :D

Jill's latest storyline is that the baby flipped after the water broke. Things feel very different without that watery cushion, especially with a nearly 10 lb. baby.

That is not her "latest" story. That has been the story all along. I will not deny that the details of the birth story as told by Jill and Co. are strange, but they have largely been consistent. There are a few inconsistencies in timing, and a few new details (that expand on but don't contradict prior versions), but the primary details of the events and order of events have not changed.

[SassyPants]

If Izzy really did flip after 60 hours of labor and Pitocin with no progressive dilatation, why didn't they just stick with the truth? If there weren't so many differing accounts of his unfavorable position, I might believe them, but which version are you to believe when there are so many?

If Jill was just trying to make the c -section a mandate vs her choice (in the old days they called it FTP or failure to progress, but I'm sure that negative term is no longer in use) why didn't they just pick one story and stick with it?

When we got to the hospital, we found out that Izzy was breech- and leave it at that, instead of all these different stories.

It's as if they choreographing the perfect storyline to explain how this had nothing to do with Jill but a hospital, doctor, IV, pain meds, epidural and c-section were the only choice- NOT JILL'S CHOICE, but the ONLY choice.

When in fact, beyond on them ,no one really cares.

MORE info is not necessarily better...see Alyssa W and Erin P.

[SassyPants]

That is not her "latest" story. That has been the story all along. I will not deny that the details of the birth story as told by Jill and Co. are strange, but they have largely been consistent. There are a few inconsistencies in timing, and a few new details (that expand on but don't contradict prior versions), but the primary details of the events and order of events have not changed.

The position of the baby certainly has changed.

[mpheels]

The position of the baby certainly has changed.

Has it really? They have consistently stated that Izzy moved in utero to be in a transverse position, which lead to the decision to have a c-section. Other than that, they haven't shared many specifics about position. The 700 club mention of him being posterior is the first (non-speculative) mention I've seen of his position before he moved to be transverse.

[Yoshimi]

Has it really? They have consistently stated that Izzy moved in utero to be in a transverse position, which lead to the decision to have a c-section. Other than that, they haven't shared many specifics about position. The 700 club mention of him being posterior is the first (non-speculative) mention I've seen of his position before he moved to be transverse.

I confess I haven't followed the discussion in this thread much lately (I'm SO OVER this never-ending speculations/conspiracy theories over Izzy's birth!!!) but Jill DID tell People magazine that Izzy was posterior. I have the article in front of me right now and here’s the part after Jill said she took castor oil to increase her contractions-

“Indeed, three hours later, the contractions began fast and furious. At this point the baby was head down, but the back of his head was against Jill’s back, in what is known as a posterior position, which can make it more painful to deliver. ‘We tried different positions to move him,’ says Jill, who had hoped for a natural delivery….â€

Later on in the article, it says Izzy flipped into ‘transverse breech position’ (sideways and upside down, whatever that means) while at the hospital and that’s when the doctor decided to proceed with the C-section.

[SassyPants]

Has it really? They have consistently stated that Izzy moved in utero to be in a transverse position, which lead to the decision to have a c-section. Other than that, they haven't shared many specifics about position. The 700 club mention of him being posterior is the first (non-speculative) mention I've seen of his position before he moved to be transverse.

Here's an actual quote from People Mag:

Once there, Jill initially declined Pitocin (a hormone that greatly speeds up labor) and pain medication, but after 70 hours in labor, the baby had flipped into a transverse breech position (sideways and upside down), was experiencing irregular heart rates and had not yet descended.

So know we have transverse, transverse breech (??) and posterior.

[SassyPants]

So he went from posterior to transverse/breech after nearly 70 hours of ROM and no one knew it?

If you an epidural, does that necessitate external fetal monitoring? Wouldn't the PMI of a FHT change if a 10 lb, 23 inch baby flipped?

[mpheels]

Has it really? They have consistently stated that Izzy moved in utero to be in a transverse position, which lead to the decision to have a c-section. Other than that, they haven't shared many specifics about position. The 700 club mention of him being posterior is the first (non-speculative) mention I've seen of his position before he moved to be transverse.

Here's an actual quote from People Mag:

Once there, Jill initially declined Pitocin (a hormone that greatly speeds up labor) and pain medication, but after 70 hours in labor, the baby had flipped into a transverse breech position (sideways and upside down), was experiencing irregular heart rates and had not yet descended.

So know we have transverse, transverse breech (??) and posterior.

[Yoshimi]

So he went from posterior to transverse/breech after nearly 70 hours of ROM and no one knew it?

If you an epidural, does that necessitate external fetal monitoring? Wouldn't the PMI of a FHT change if a 10 lb, 23 inch baby flipped?

I thought they knew when he went transverse/breech and that's why they decided on the C-section?

[lascuba]

So he went from posterior to transverse/breech after nearly 70 hours of ROM and no one knew it?

If you an epidural, does that necessitate external fetal monitoring? Wouldn't the PMI of a FHT change if a 10 lb, 23 inch baby flipped?

Not sure about the epidural, but continuous fetal monitoring is not optional with pitocin.

I still think the baby didn't so much as flip as changed position just slightly, so vaginal delivery went from a very bad idea to completely impossible. No way did a 10 pound baby with no amniotic fluid flip.

[SassyPants]

Not sure about the epidural, but continuous fetal monitoring is not optional with pitocin.

I still think the baby didn't so much as flip as changed position just slightly, so vaginal delivery went from a very bad idea to completely impossible. No way did a 10 pound baby with no amniotic fluid flip.

According to the People mag article, Izzy had heart rate drops, so he was being monitored- there is no way that baby just flipped, maybe turned his head so his chin was up- A posteriorly positioned huge baby would have been a hard vaginal delivery for anyone.

[nelliebelle1197]

Calm yourself, padawan, by OT standards, J+D have to wait 40 days post birth (for a son, more for a daughter) to have relations again. I presume that's what above user is talking about.

Do you always make such little sense when you write?

[nelliebelle1197]

There's a whole flipping thread dedicated to when will Jill be pregnant again but I'm the creepy one for mentioning it twice?!?!?! What the hell?!?! The Duggars have been very open about the whole 40/80 rule.

I find it odd that this thread had a whole meltdown over what we should be discussing and that many feel it should be their beliefs. I bring up the belief of the 40/80 rule but I'm the creep. :angry-banghead:

Sorry, but that is not what you said. You actually figured out the date. And you wondered quite openly earlier about when Jill will be ovulating again. Yeah, weird. But it pretty much fits with the weirdness going on since this subforum was created, so I shouldn't be surprised.

[OkToBeTakei]

Sorry, but that is not what you said. You actually figured out the date. And you wondered quite openly earlier about when Jill will be ovulating again. Yeah, weird. But it pretty much fits with the weirdness going on since this subforum was created, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Along with the mad birth/People/TLC conspiracy! Again. What the actual fuck? It's like watching addicts on smack :lol:

Wasn't there somebody who did actually make spreadsheets once? It freaked out some GOMI commenters. THAT takes talent as they are pretty hardcore at times! I'm surprised there is not a spreadsheet timeline of Jill's birth, OH wait there probably is with the rabid fascination of some posters 8-)

MEANWHILE on the Erin birth thread nobody gives a toss it's all just a love in.

[LilahBelle]

Here's a question, without actually getting into a debate on whether they're back in business yet or not, if the doctor told her (or any of the Duggars) wait X amount of time, longer than 40 days, but the bible says 40 days and the husband wanted sex on day 40, what would a Duggar do? Especially one who had some complications?

[lascuba]

Here's a question, without actually getting into a debate on whether they're back in business yet or not, if the doctor told her (or any of the Duggars) wait X amount of time, longer than 40 days, but the bible says 40 days and the husband wanted sex on day 40, what would a Duggar do? Especially one who had some complications?

I don't like giving these people much credit for anything, but I honestly don't think any of the Duggar males (whether Duggar by birth or marriage) would actually demand sex if there's a medical reason for their wives to abstain.

[Coco]

We have so much contradictory information, but people (myself included) are trying to work with what they've said. A week or so ago, I went over the People story with my roommate and she asked what if Jill had been mistaken about her water breaking. Huge chunks of the story would be less alarming, eg going back to sleep, trip to chiro, pedicure, spicy lunch, long walk to start labor. And it would shave many hours off the 70 hour total. It's actually 68 hours if her water broke at 3:45 April 4 and she delivered at 23:50 on April 6, but whatever, Jill.

My point is that I'm willing to do some pretty extreme mental gymnastics to make sense out of what they've reported. So here's a question about a hypothetical scenario based on some of what we've discussed--I'll remove Jill's name to emphasize that this is not my guess, just some pondering: A woman who is emphatic about having a low-intervention homebirth and, in that vein, has had minimal cervix checks, presents at the hospital after 20 hours with little progress or labor started and stopped or whatever, is it appropriate for the OB to offer Pitocin without checking her dilation and the baby's position? It doesn't seem like a good idea, based on what I've read here.

tldr re bolded: could this be evidence that the baby really did flip, as unlikely as that seems? Not that I believe the family's statements. I'm going in circles here, sorry!

Yeah, and on top of all that -- this is a reality TV star with a film crew. They've got to have done a quick ultrasound. They have mobile ultrasound machines similar to those old school TV carts, they can roll that right up to anyone. They did that to me in the middle of a contraction when i got to the hospital. I'd place some major bets that they did an ultrasound right when she got there. Of course they did, unless she refused, but would they have let her refuse without signing a waiver?

turn, turn, turn... :lol:

[SassyPants]

Post dates, PROM, GBS+, MEC staining, primip, huge baby... no progress.

Hospital,Pitocin, no progress

Epidural- heart rate drops, no progress

No progress despite all treatments offered.

Fetal distress

Cesction due to lack of other options

No one other than Dillards cares about the actual details. What people care about is the apparent need to alter/change the details as often as most change their undergarments, and that other young, expectant mothers might take Jill's account and purported training as some sort of authority or expert opinion and use that information to make their own birth plan or birth decisions.

Less information is more- and people tend not to speculate or question as much- *See the Bates

[Seven]

Sorry if this was already discussed, but WHY would Jill look at her baby for the first time and say "He's not ugly!" Who the heck would say that?? She's very immature. :wtf:

[J'Lurker]

Could an epidural make it possible that Jill could not feel Iz move? I know we've beaten the fact that such a large baby is maybe not the likeliest to turn without the amniotic fluid to death, and the idea of Jill not being aware of it happening is even less likely... but could her epidural have been that effective?