Jill Duggar Dillard, Derick Dillard, & Baby Israel - Part 2

[nelliebelle1197]

I guess I am in the middle. The Duggars have a job to do- present a palatable version of their view of reality to the public. I spin things at work for a living sometimes so I guess I get it. I have seen posts that point towards coverups and conspiracy and I think those are just OTT. I also Jill made very poor choices - ignorant arrogance- but I think those choices are based squarely in the "education" her parents afforded her.

The extremes that are coming out here are a little, well, extreme. Truth is rarely in the extremes. It is usually in the middle.

Eta: I am not claiming to be full of truth. I just believe these extreme POVs are rarely accurate or constructive

[SassyPants]

I think what is missing in this discussion is the fact that no one here knows what control tlc has on what the Duggars say and what the parameters are. No one knows the details that are in the People contract. No one knows if the Duggars are given talking points for each interview based on how people reacted to the last interview.

The Duggars are not autonomous agents. They are owned by TLC. The mountain that has been made out of this molehill defies logic- TLC controls what the Duggars say in the press, three different people were telling a story to the different outlets at three different times, and neither the Duggars or TLC can control editing, etc., after those interviews are done.

There are no lies in the statements. There are omissions, but whether those omissions occurred through intention, happenstance, TLC, or editors/interviewers, we simply do not know.

I agree that most of us could see the potential problems/hazards with selling ourselves, and worse yet, our children to a media company. Too good to be true, is usually just that.

HOWEVER, most of us do not have 19 children to provide for (or 15 at the time the decision was made)-JB

And most of us likely did not grow up in a house with 18 sibs, fighting for food morsels and eating in the BR-Jill

I am sure for some of the family members the juice was worth the squeeze, for others, not so much.

If anything, it just illustrates one huge peril to 1 average income family trying to provide for a Mega family. It's just almost impossible to do on the couple's own volition.

Most of us would not sell out to TLC because most of us would use our brains to make more logical decisions and never get into that situation in the first place.

I absolutely hate seeing another generation affected.

When you know better, you do better. DERICK KNOWS BETTER.

[SassyPants]

I guess I am in the middle. The Duggars have a job to do- present a palatable version of their view of reality to the public. I spin things at work for a living sometimes so I guess I get it. I have seen posts that point towards coverups and conspiracy and I think those are just OTT. I also Jill made very poor choices - ignorant arrogance- but I think those choices are based squarely in the "education" her parents afforded her.

The extremes that are coming out here are a little, well, extreme. Truth is rarely in the extremes. It is usually in the middle.

Eta: I am not claiming to be full of truth. I just believe these extreme POVs are rarely accurate or constructive

I think the spin was in the direction that Jill had NO choice -

Because if Jill had a CHOICE, no matter what, she would have had a non -medicated home birth with Derick catching the baby.

IMO, the only person who thinks less of Jill for how she birthed Izzy is Jill, ergo the spin.

Birthing a baby is hard- birthing a huge baby on your first go around is even harder, especially if his position is not the most favorable.

Jill should use the media to get spread the ^ message.

[apandaaries]

I guess I am in the middle. The Duggars have a job to do- present a palatable version of their view of reality to the public. I spin things at work for a living sometimes so I guess I get it. I have seen posts that point towards coverups and conspiracy and I think those are just OTT. I also Jill made very poor choices - ignorant arrogance- but I think those choices are based squarely in the "education" her parents afforded her.

The extremes that are coming out here are a little, well, extreme. Truth is rarely in the extremes. It is usually in the middle.

Eta: I am not claiming to be full of truth. I just believe these extreme POVs are rarely accurate or constructive

While I get that TLC and the Duggars are both spinning their truths out there, ultimately I'm very concerned about the people who view them as role models and seek to emulate their actions -- including Jill's risky birthing decisions. Elsewhere I've referred to it as "Jill's storyline," which I think offended someone, but I mean that literally: her storyline on the show and in the media. It's just a dangerous & whitewashed narrative to throw out to the public.

YES, people should absolutely do their research and plan ahead, but a huge number of people just don't. My cousin has wandered down a fundie-lite lane and shows no sign of returning. She LOVES the Duggars; they're promoted to her kids as a good Christian family with good values. My cousin claims she "doesn't have the gift of loving reading," so she reads the Bible sometimes and lots of prosperity theology/self-help Christian books when she does read. She's exactly the kind of person who would use their TLC-version to justify her own potentially poor choices, sadly.

THAT'S the problem I have with the storyline and its inconsistencies/omissions. Jill has been and continues to be presented as an expert on childbirth, but also claims a 70 hour labor with, shall we say, a slew of issues. I'm not hating on women by pointing out some problems with what's been presented. I'm glad they're both okay, but I do like honesty.

[SassyPants]

There's also the issue of the MD telling the Dillards (per the Dillards) that their next baby could certainly be a vag delivery, yet when you look at the data, most women who have a csection for their first child are far more likely than not, to only have csection deliveries. In this case, Jill is likely setting herself up for future disappointment. And would a vag delivery in a hospital, under MD be enough? or would only a home birth with a lay MW suffice?

Even if the Dr shared that with the Dillards, there was no reason for the Dillards to share that info with the public. Focus on the baby you just had, and on each other, for a bit.

[OkToBeTakei]

Am I correct in assuming that the "you people are making way to big a deal of Izzy's birth and there's nothing wrong with the story Jill and TLC are selling" side are predominantly pro-homebirth/pro-lay midwifery/pro natural everything because nature is a benign goddess that allows nothing to go wrong; while those who think that Izzy's birth--based on what the Duggars and TLC have told us--was all kinds of fucked up because of Jill's decisions are more the, "hey, medical training and experience are actually good things so being proud of the fact that you wrote the longest birth plan the hospital has ever seen is pretty ridiculous and deserving of mockery" type?

Just a guess.

An incorrect one which probably is the reason other assumptions are made.

There is NO such thing as a 'lay midwife' in my country. IF you want a homebirth you would be attended by two fully trained NHS provided midwifes.

I'm well into hospitals and super into pain relief...thanks anyway. Not a crunchy bone in my thank Lego for modern medicine.

What I probably am into is not putting things in boxes for convenience. As much as I can't stand the whole false midwife training crap. At no point have I heard Jill profess to be an expert. Folks here are using that as THEIR excuse. What I see when I watch the show is a TV show following her around as she learned to be a......doula. She learned some skills, others for some unknown reason wish to use. I never at any point heard them claim to be any fundie guru of birth. Let's face it if that was her only experience it would be indeed worrying. She has witnessed plenty of her Mother's medically led births. It's not like her homebirth experiences have been in a vaccuum.

What is convenient is for folks to say, OoooH she's an expert, look what happened at her birth! Hahaha that proves..........What? That folks are petty.

She tried it her way. As we all tend to want to do. When she needed help she sought it. Healthy baby, healthy mother. Every birth story has some drama. Never text-book.

On this thread somebody even tried to blame her for her baby being big. Also ...seriously trying to figure out if somebodies baby actually did move in utero, via the internet?

I'd be more concerned in a few years if I see this child hanging onto a pro-life sign, spouting homophobic crap, not his damn birth. It's not snarky. Reading this thread it's as if some would only be happy if something tragic had happened...that would show her eh?

Harpy is a great word :lol:

My labour was only slightly shorter incidentally. First labours be long sometimes. Active labour is only the last few hours. I doubt 'Jill was in early, start stop labour for hours as is common in first babies' would have been quite so catching for a headline or TV special.

[lascuba]

There's also the issue of the MD telling the Dillards (per the Dillards) that their next baby could certainly be a vag delivery, yet when you look at the data, most women who have a csection for their first child are far more likely than not, to only have csection deliveries. In this case, Jill is likely setting herself up for future disappointment. And would a vag delivery in a hospital, under MD be enough? or would only a home birth with a lay MW suffice?

Even if the Dr shared that with the Dillards, there was no reason for the Dillards to share that info with the public. Focus on the baby you just had, and on each other, for a bit.

I missed that part. So Jill and Derrick said that that's what the doctor told them? I'm going to assume that he told them that she can have a trial of labor next time--because certain incisions and stitches make labor ill-advised--and they took it to mean that she can definitely have a vaginal birth. I mean, it's possible...she could have a vaginal delivery next time. That Jill and Derrick want to believe that's it's a certainty--well, people tend to hear what they want to hear. For Jill's sake, I hope the next one is a lot smaller and vertex.

[lascuba]

An incorrect one which probably is the reason other assumptions are made.

There is NO such thing as a 'lay midwife' in my country. IF you want a homebirth you would be attended by two fully trained NHS provided midwifes.

I'm well into hospitals and super into pain relief...thanks anyway. Not a crunchy bone in my thank Lego for modern medicine.

What I probably am into is not putting things in boxes for convenience. As much as I can't stand the whole false midwife training crap. At no point have I heard Jill profess to be an expert. Folks here are using that as THEIR excuse. What I see when I watch the show is a TV show following her around as she learned to be a......doula. She learned some skills, others for some unknown reason wish to use. I never at any point heard them claim to be any fundie guru of birth. Let's face it if that was her only experience it would be indeed worrying. She has witnessed plenty of her Mother's medically led births. It's not like her homebirth experiences have been in a vaccuum.

What is convenient is for folks to say, OoooH she's an expert, look what happened at her birth! Hahaha that proves..........What? That folks are petty.

She tried it her way. As we all tend to want to do. When she needed help she sought it. Healthy baby, healthy mother. Every birth story has some drama. Never text-book.

On this thread somebody even tried to blame her for her baby being big. Also ...seriously trying to figure out if somebodies baby actually did move in utero, via the internet?

I'd be more concerned in a few years if I see this child hanging onto a pro-life sign, spouting homophobic crap, not his damn birth. It's not snarky. Reading this thread it's as if some would only be happy if something tragic had happened...that would show her eh?

Harpy is a great word :lol:

My labour was only slightly shorter incidentally. First labours be long sometimes. Active labour is only the last few hours. I doubt 'Jill was in early, start stop labour for hours as is common in first babies' would have been quite so catching for a headline or TV special.

The reason I made the assumption about you and others being homebirth enthusiasts is because it's bizarre to harp that people are criticizing Jill without reason, when we know that she was GBS+, that she went 70 hours after ROM (and the ROM part is the more significant issue than the length of labor), that the baby passed meconium, that in spite of all that she repeatedly refused interventions. People blaming her for Israel's size, yes, that's ridiculous. But while she never used the term "expert," she sure as hell used the midwifery student card at various points, so if people want to call attention to the implications of that, it's not a baseless argument. You're lumping all criticism of Jill's choices together as some kind of vast bullying conspiracy, as if blaming Jill for Israel's size is on the same level as criticizing her decisions regarding her GBS status, and that's, at best, disingenuous.

[OkToBeTakei]

The reason I made the assumption about you and others being homebirth enthusiasts is because it's bizarre to harp that people are criticizing Jill without reason, when we know that she was GBS+, that she went 70 hours after ROM (and the ROM part is the more significant issue than the length of labor), that the baby passed meconium, that in spite of all that she repeatedly refused interventions. People blaming her for Israel's size, yes, that's ridiculous. But while she never used the term "expert," she sure as hell used the midwifery student card at various points, so if people want to call attention to the implications of that, it's not a baseless argument. You're lumping all criticism of Jill's choices together as some kind of vast bullying conspiracy, as if blaming Jill for Israel's size is on the same level as criticizing her decisions regarding her GBS status, and that's, at best, disingenuous.

:lol:

WTF?

....It obviously really does something for your life. Carry on harpying 8-)

[lascuba]

Probably does for me what it does for you. We each arguing with people we believe are wrong on the internet, so...

But you go on arguing without actually responding to what is said if that's what does it for you.

[mpheels]

I think there are plenty of legitimate criticism of Jill, but there are also a lot of ridiculous criticism.

I think it is reasonable to criticize her for using castor oil and for going so long PROM without seeing a physician (especially as she was GBS+). She either chose a midwife who did a terrible job, or she chose a good midwife and disregarded her professional advice. All legitimate criticisms.

Criticizing her for having a birth plan is ridiculous. Calling her a "wimp" because she didn't tolerate the pain of labor is ridiculous. Saying she "failed" is ridiculous. There is also a lot of criticism that she didn't seek care quickly enough after noticing the meconium staining, but every public account indicates that they went to the hospital ASAP after seeing meconium.

There are also some criticism that requires a huge amount of cognitive dissonance to believe. People on this thread have criticized her for refusing pitocin, and in the same posting deny the possibility that Izzy changed positions. If Izzy was transverse from the start, then pitocin wouldn't be helpful. Jill cannot simultaneously be an smug know-it-all for refusing pitocon and be a complete idiot for thinking Izzy was vertex when he was really transverse all along.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

God, the only harpies I see on this forum are the ones being so nasty to other FJ members. You can add all the laughing emojis you want, nobody is fooled.

I don't know why some of you feel so strongly about the speculation process going on here that you have become nasty and hostile to other members but try think of it like a jigsaw puzzle. We were given several large pieces and we have been trying to figure out how they fit together. Personally I think I've gotten a pretty good picture of what happened and while I think Jill made some mistakes I also feel very sorry for her. I hope she is able to come to terms with what happened and that her next birth is easier.

[Mama Mia]

You've mentioned before about your baby flipping--no one disbelieves you, but accurately point out that that major difference between you and Jill is that your membranes hadn't ruptured.

No one is saying that doctors are infallible--trust me, anyone who's worked in the medical field knows better. But generally, doctors who fuck up do so because they aren't following the rules, the very rules that the type of midwifery Jill is drawn to is against, anyway. The signs of fetal distress that your daughter's OB ignored? Generally, lay midwives wouldn't even see those signs, and they'd also ignore them if they saw them. There's a large contingent of homebirth midwives who are against continuous fetal monitoring precisely because they indicated signs that things might go wrong and lead to interventions.

And in Jill's case specifically, she was GBS positive but refused interventions and went 70 hours after ROM before agreeing to a c-section. That fact alone says a lot about the birth and it's completely valid to criticize her choices.

Well, let's just start with calling absolute bullshit on the " generally, lay midwives wouldn't even see those signs" . I don't have any experience with lay midwives -- but Isaw those signs, her husband saw those signs, and she saw those signs. Damn, even her 64 year old grandfather , could tell things were going badly! So I am 99.999999% confident that a lay midwife would have caught on. -- The point being--how the hell does your message make ANY sense --- the O.B. screwed up, but a lay-midwife would probably have screwed up too, so therefore lay midwives are bad ? What's the tie in there? That's like saying " Mary was wearing flip-flops when she tripped and fell. I bet she would have been even more likely to trip if she was wearing high heels. Therefore high heels are bad :doh: "

Also, she didn't refuse interventions for GBS -- she had the IV antibiotics.

God, and now people are calling Jill a "wimp' ? and saying she's too dependent on her husband?

Gross, gross gross :ew:

[Coco]

Are you all ganging up on my comment? I can't tell lol But i do use laughing emojis and i did say "failed" and "wimp".

Sorry if i was offensive. I'm tired and bitchy today. Maybe we're all on the same cycle. :cracking-up:

Jill shouldn't have called her labor 70 hours if she was just barely started. I went through a couple of days of progressively stronger contractions too with my second baby. IMO labor is when it's so much that nothing else can be done, no chores, no walking around, no restaurants, no chiro visits, no pedis. Labor is having the baby, imo. So yes, I'm going to play the wimpy card if she's going to act like that's labor.

And yes! I'm sorry if this is an unpopular opinion but imo she is too dependent on Derick and expects too much from him. Did any of us have our hubbies beside us during labor, being our slave the whole time? no? well she did! And she even wouldn't let him crack jokes at the goofy classes she dragged him along with her to attend! Sorry but come on. Most guys just aren't going to be as saintly as Derick.

When i said failed i meant she should admit that her way was dangerous. She failed by not admitting that it was risky to try to do this at home with being so far past her due date with a gigantic baby. And castor oil makes babies poop = meconium, it was pretty much guaranteed to happen.

[halcionne]

I think there are plenty of legitimate criticism of Jill, but there are also a lot of ridiculous criticism.

I think it is reasonable to criticize her for using castor oil and for going so long PROM without seeing a physician (especially as she was GBS+). She either chose a midwife who did a terrible job, or she chose a good midwife and disregarded her professional advice. All legitimate criticisms.

Criticizing her for having a birth plan is ridiculous. Calling her a "wimp" because she didn't tolerate the pain of labor is ridiculous. Saying she "failed" is ridiculous. There is also a lot of criticism that she didn't seek care quickly enough after noticing the meconium staining, but every public account indicates that they went to the hospital ASAP after seeing meconium.

There are also some criticism that requires a huge amount of cognitive dissonance to believe. People on this thread have criticized her for refusing pitocin, and in the same posting deny the possibility that Izzy changed positions. If Izzy was transverse from the start, then pitocin wouldn't be helpful. Jill cannot simultaneously be an smug know-it-all for refusing pitocon and be a complete idiot for thinking Izzy was vertex when he was really transverse all along.

I honestly don't see how these two can't be true at the same time, even if we remove the name-calling. :shrug:

[SassyPants]

Are you all ganging up on my comment? I can't tell lol But i do use laughing emojis and i did say "failed" and "wimp".

Sorry if i was offensive. I'm tired and bitchy today. Maybe we're all on the same cycle. :cracking-up:

Jill shouldn't have called her labor 70 hours if she was just barely started. I went through a couple of days of progressively stronger contractions too with my second baby. I didn't call that labor. IMO labor is when it's so much that nothing else can be done, no chores, no walking around, no restaurants, no chiro visits, no pedis. Labor is having the baby, imo. So yes, I'm going to play the wimpy card if she's going to act like that's labor.

i've never been the bad poster on FJ before, it's kind of fun. :lol:

And yes! She is too dependent on Derick. Ok - did ALL of you guys have your baby daddy beside you being your slave the whole time? no? well she did! And she even wouldn't let him crack jokes at the stupid classes she dragged him along with her to attend! Sorry but come on. Most guys just aren't going to be as saintly as Derick.

When i said failed i meant she should admit that her way was dangerous. She failed by not admitting that it was risky to try to do this at home with being so far past her due date with a gigantic baby. And castor oil makes babies poop = meconium, it was pretty much guaranteed to happen.

I just read that revised OBGYN guidelines now classify active labor as beginning when a woman is 6 CM dilated (it used to be 4cm).

The one bit of info Jill never shared is exactly how far dilated she was at various points during those 70 hours. All we heard is that no progress was made. So, 20 hours of contractions 1 minute apart and no progress was made- that should have been a red flag that something was not right.

[Coco]

:clap:

Not only can doctors be sued by parents, but they then have 18 years to worry that the child will sue them to. No woman is going to win a lawsuit because of a c-section or "unnecessary" intervention that ended with a healthy baby and mother. The lawsuits doctors and hospitals lose are the one where the plaintiffs argue that a c-section should have been done, or should have been done sooner. Even when those plaintiffs refused those interventions. All a lawyer has to argue is that, sure, mom refused intervention, but that's because the ob didn't really make it clear what the consequences of that refusal would be, and boom, you win millions of dollars, all because those women thought they knew more about obstetrics than obstetricians because they read mommy blogs and watched the Business of Being Born.

That's what's so irritating about it. People will see filtered information from TLC and get the wrong idea.

I bet with Jill's next baby she's going to be under the care of a real OBGYN. It's just crazy that Michelle didn't see the signs that this was going to be risky, that Izzy hadn't dropped, that Jill was obviously carrying a very big baby, and that Jill is not the calmest person under pressure. All those things... Michelle should have said, go get induced at the hospital, because she's been through this over 19 times. To me that just proves that Michelle is really out of touch.

[mpheels]

I honestly don't see how these two can't be true at the same time, even if we remove the name-calling. :shrug:

Situation A: Izzy was vertex (or possibly frank or footling breech) when Jill arrived at the hospital, in which case pitocin is a reasonable intervention that Jill initially refused. Under this scenario, Izzy had to flip/move after Jill arrived at the hospital.

Situation B: Izzy was transverse when Jill arrived at the hospital, in which case pitocin was contraindicated, and Jill was right to refuse (though maybe unwittingly so).

[Tiny Bubbles]

pitocin wouldn't have been offered if Izzy was known to be transverse, so when Jill was offered it at the hospital, he was not transverse, so he could have changed positions.

I think.

[SassyPants]

Situation C- Izzy was posterior as has been previously mentioned . Jill knew based on the PMI of her contraction during the previous 2 days at home...both she and Michelle mentioned this in their various accounts.

She got to the hospital, gave her account and was examined.

Based on Jill's account and her exam, the medical team suggest Pitocin to augment her labor- Jill refused.

Jill labored longer, still made no progress and upon exam was found to be in stalled labor.

Jill and Derick decided to try the Pitocin and also to get an epidural.

Izzy had heart drops...still no progess despite Pitocin and pain relief.

A decision was made to do a cesction because the entire picture: PROM, posterior position, failed round of Pitocin based on no progress, mec staining and fetal distress.

[mpheels]

Situation C- Izzy was posterior as has been previously mentioned . Jill knew based on the PMI of her contraction during the previous 2 days at home...both she and Michelle mentioned this in their various accounts.

She got to the hospital, gave her account and was examined.

Based on Jill's account and her exam, the medical team suggest Pitocin to augment her labor- Jill refused.

Jill labored longer, still made no progress and upon exam was found to be in stalled labor.

Jill and Derick decided to try the Pitocin and also to get an epidural.

Izzy had heart drops...still no progess despite Pitocin and pain relief.

A decision was made to do a cesction because the entire picture: PROM, posterior position, failed round of Pitocin based on no progress, mec staining and fetal distress.

So now you're saying he was never transverse? We actually saw footage of the ultrasound confirming his transverse position, so I don't think that point is up for debate. The question is when did he flip - either he flipped before they arrived at the hospital, in which case no pitocin, or he flipped after they arrived at the hospital.

[SassyPants]

So now you're saying he was never transverse? We actually saw footage of the ultrasound confirming his transverse position, so I don't think that point is up for debate. The question is when did he flip - either he flipped before they arrived at the hospital, in which case no pitocin, or he flipped after they arrived at the hospital.

We did? They showed an US of him transverse? Then why do they keeping saying transverse breech? If he was straight across transverse and it was shown on TV (is what I am assuming that you're inferring) than the "breech" would never need to be added, and it's been added numerous times.

[halcionne]

We did? They showed an US of him transverse? Then why do they keeping saying transverse breech? If he was straight across transverse and it was shown on TV (is what I am assuming that you're inferring) than the "breech" would never need to be added, and it's been added numerous times.

I just rewatched on youtube. US is at 1:14:30 and the baby's head is definitely not down, judging by where dr had the gizmo on her belly. Then in Jill's TH she says breech transverse.

ETA it looks like they pulled him out rump first at 1:18:20

[lascuba]

Well, let's just start with calling absolute bullshit on the " generally, lay midwives wouldn't even see those signs" . I don't have any experience with lay midwives -- but Isaw those signs, her husband saw those signs, and she saw those signs. Damn, even her 64 year old grandfather , could tell things were going badly! So I am 99.999999% confident that a lay midwife would have caught on. -- The point being--how the hell does your message make ANY sense --- the O.B. screwed up, but a lay-midwife would probably have screwed up too, so therefore lay midwives are bad ? What's the tie in there? That's like saying " Mary was wearing flip-flops when she tripped and fell. I bet she would have been even more likely to trip if she was wearing high heels. Therefore high heels are bad :doh: "

Also, she didn't refuse interventions for GBS -- she had the IV antibiotics.

God, and now people are calling Jill a "wimp' ? and saying she's too dependent on her husband?

Gross, gross gross :ew:

Oh, it probably makes more sense then bitching that doctors don't get punished enough when the discussion is about bad midwives. I mean, you're the one who brought it up, I took it from there. And you proved my point--that doctor was a blatant fuck-up who ignored established rules.

Yes, she took iv antibiotics (oh wait! Isn't that just speculation based on one picture, because that was never once shown on the VSE? For shame!), but the initial refusal to augment labor and going 70 hours post ROM before agreeing to a c-section is what I'm talking about.

And again with the ridiculous conflations. Yes, it's gross calling Jill a wimp. What on earth does that have to do with criticism of her medical decisions?

God, this is like when this board was insane with leghumping Jill. "Oh, she wasn't being mean to Jinger, she was protecting her from Jim Bob's wrath!" "I'm sure she's not quitting midwifery, she's just taking a bit of time off to plan her wedding!" "No, I still don't think she's quit midwifery, she's obviously taking time off to care for her sick mother in law!" People, you can like Jill and still acknowledge that not every one of her decisions is perfect.

[mpheels]

Maybe if I reverse engineer, my point will make more sense?

The various descriptions of the delivery have all mentioned transverse, and sometimes transverse/breech. I take transverse/breech to indicate that he was at an angle somewhere in between. Since there apparently is no clinical standard for the term "transverse/breech," I'm open to other interpretations, but I imagine they would all be presentations that make vaginal delivery unlikely, and therefore contraindicate pitocin.

Given that - at the time of the c-section, Izzy was in a position that contraindicated pitocin. We know that based both on all public descriptions of the delivery and the U/S that was filmed and shown in the VSE.

In order for Izzy to be in that position, he either A) was already there when Jill arrived at the hospital, in which case pitocin was never appropriate or B) he moved in utero, in which case Jill is correct/truthful when she says he moved.