Jill Duggar Dillard, Derick Dillard, & Baby Israel - Part 2

[Coco]

Guys i'm sorry i called Jill a wimp. I should stay off FJ when i'm tried and cranky. Even if she wanted to call intermittent contractions that didn't interfere with normal activities = labor, then she has that right. It might have been really painful for her. I shouldn't have judged. Sorry for influencing the conversation into a grouchy direction, that's on me.

[lascuba]

Don't worry about it, Coco. Everyone is just in the mood to jump on statements that confirm their biases. If it wasn't your "wimp," it would have been something else.

[OkToBeTakei]

God, the only harpies I see on this forum are the ones being so nasty to other FJ members. You can add all the laughing emojis you want, nobody is fooled.

I don't know why some of you feel so strongly about the speculation process going on here that you have become nasty and hostile to other members but try think of it like a jigsaw puzzle. We were given several large pieces and we have been trying to figure out how they fit together. Personally I think I've gotten a pretty good picture of what happened and while I think Jill made some mistakes I also feel very sorry for her. I hope she is able to come to terms with what happened and that her next birth is easier.

Hey ho I'm not trying to fool anybody. The tone of these Duggar threads has turned away many FJ users and some have left because of the turn the forum has taken because of said posters.

On the upside there is at least a thin veneer of trying to rationalise why this topic has lasted so long, compared to Part 1 which was basically just plain and nasty bitchiness crossed with TMZ Not snark.

I actually only perused the thread after hearing that and I had a legit snark that I have now totally forgotten. Think it was the name.

OH the irony of people not liking nasty comments on their nasty commenting :lol: <<<<

[MrsWorkfromhome]

I missed that part. So Jill and Derrick said that that's what the doctor told them? I'm going to assume that he told them that she can have a trial of labor next time--because certain incisions and stitches make labor ill-advised--and they took it to mean that she can definitely have a vaginal birth. I mean, it's possible...she could have a vaginal delivery next time. That Jill and Derrick want to believe that's it's a certainty--well, people tend to hear what they want to hear. For Jill's sake, I hope the next one is a lot smaller and vertex.

I missed that too. If she has a repeat c section I see a Dr being more strong in telling them that a super large family is just not in cards for them.

[Evilbad]

That's what's so irritating about it. People will see filtered information from TLC and get the wrong idea.

I bet with Jill's next baby she's going to be under the care of a real OBGYN. It's just crazy that Michelle didn't see the signs that this was going to be risky, that Izzy hadn't dropped, that Jill was obviously carrying a very big baby, and that Jill is not the calmest person under pressure. All those things... Michelle should have said, go get induced at the hospital, because she's been through this over 19 times. To me that just proves that Michelle is really out of touch.

What makes you think she didn't? I don't like the sugars either but you're making a lot of assumptions here.

[halcionne]

Guys i'm sorry i called Jill a wimp. I should stay off FJ when i'm tried and cranky. Even if she wanted to call intermittent contractions that didn't interfere with normal activities = labor, then she has that right. It might have been really painful for her. I shouldn't have judged. Sorry for influencing the conversation into a grouchy direction, that's on me.

I'm cranky too; I think a lot of posters are. We need a juicy fundie topic to snark on together, instead of snarking at each other over Jill's birth story. I would like to suggest Dr. Jason Lisle and Jenessa's atheist bashing, but it just doesn't have the same pizzazz as the conspiracy theories in this thread. ;)

[SassyPants]

So was there an US showing Izzy in a straight up transverse lie? Or a breech? Or is this based on wand placement and how the baby was pulled out?

I have to say this. If that nearly 10 lb baby flipped from posterior and head down, Jill must have a huge and stretchy uterus. My daughter had a big baby for her (8 lbs) and my poor, little GD had a torticollis most likely d/t her being so tightly wedged. She was also a csection delivery.

[halcionne]

So was there an US showing Izzy in a straight up transverse lie? Or a breech? Or is this based on wand placement and how the baby was pulled out?

I have to say this. If that nearly 10 lb baby flipped from posterior and head down, Jill must have a huge and stretchy uterus. My daughter had a big baby for her (8 lbs) and my poor, little GD had a torticollis most likely d/t her being so tightly wedged. She was also a csection delivery.

I don't know enough about ultrasounds or C-sections to answer that. I hope someone more knowledgeable than I am will watch that bit and chime in. :wink-kitty:

The doc performed the US and we can see the monitor as he describes his assessment. I don't know how to describe the areas he passed over with the wand, so bear with me. He seemed to me to pass the wand over the top half of her belly, above the belly button, so to speak, focusing somewhere between 12 and 3 o'clock, and he pointed at the monitor and said that they were seeing the head. Of course I have know idea what anything looks like on an ultrasound monitor...

[Arrowoftruth]

I don't know enough about ultrasounds or C-sections to answer that. I hope someone more knowledgeable than I am will watch that bit and chime in. :wink-kitty:

The doc performed the US and we can see the monitor as he describes his assessment. I don't know how to describe the areas he passed over with the wand, so bear with me. He seemed to me to pass the wand over the top half of her belly, above the belly button, so to speak, focusing somewhere between 12 and 3 o'clock, and he pointed at the monitor and said that they were seeing the head. Of course I have know idea what anything looks like on an ultrasound monitor...

I thought he did the ultrasound closer to 10 oclock. like I thought he was horizontal

[Kelbel]

well... y'all know it was based on more than just us shooting the breeze. :lol:

(photo was posted by the Duggars on Nov.11, 2014 but I couldn't confirm that was the date of the banquet)

source: starcasm.net/archives/297452 (article is from Nov. 26, 2014)

[attachment=0]Capture.JPG[/attachment]

/not trying to join a side of this discussion at all, just saying there was more to the rumors, like actual family friendship. 8-)

youtu.be/EAgpXwsC8rs

Breaking away from reading the meta discussion to say this blue fitted jacket/blazer looks great on Michelle. She needs to buy more of this sort of well-tailored top.

[YourGodIsNotMine]

Isn't it hot in Arkansas? Why oh why is that poor baby so bundled up in that IG photo? At his age, he should be able to regulate his body temperature, outdoors in 80 degree weather. I had a July baby and did not bundle him up like he was in a January snowstorm.

instagram.com/p/2tci2rrs9G/

[ClaraOswin]

So was there an US showing Izzy in a straight up transverse lie? Or a breech? Or is this based on wand placement and how the baby was pulled out?

I have to say this. If that nearly 10 lb baby flipped from posterior and head down, Jill must have a huge and stretchy uterus. My daughter had a big baby for her (8 lbs) and my poor, little GD had a torticollis most likely d/t her being so tightly wedged. She was also a csection delivery.

My baby had torticollis at birth too. We noticed it on his 2nd day in the world when he wouldn't turn his head left of center at all. He was in physical therapy from 2 months old until about 7 months old. Fun times. He wasn't a huge baby (just under 8 pounds) but they said it was most likely from the way he was laying.

[Coco]

What makes you think she didn't? I don't like the sugars either but you're making a lot of assumptions here.

You're right. Michelle might have been trying to get Jill to give up homebirth, and be induced, we don't know. But then, it does seem like Jill would have followed her mom's advice and knowledge, if Michelle had recommended being induced, based on her own vast pregnancy/labor experience, and with how much Jill honors her mom... (no snark meant)

[Kelbel]

I'm a liberal lefty and old second wave feminist and I think that while their behaviors can be attributed to structural issues they are responsible for their choices. They are making what seem to be minor changes but for them are huge. We see Jessa wearing what obviously a strapless dress but calling it modest because it has a little cap sleeve. Just look at her wedding dress compared to Anna's. Anna would never have been able to wear a dress like that, it's the same with Jill and the exposed knees during the pedicure, that would never have happened a few years ago. Maybe Josh looks so sad these days because he is trapped by early marriage and lots of kids, maybe the FRC doesn't represent his views but feels it is his only option.

The adult kids are not the isolated fundies they were ten years ago she. The show began, they have a wide range of exposures and experiences that your average fundie kid has not had. I do expect more questioning that I would from an isolated fundie.

The problem is that their fame gives them a platform the average fundie does not have. When they put an aura of glamour (sexiest Duugar? Did anyone hear JB going crazy about that?) and respectability on their cult they help encourage and perpetuate something very dangerous. I don't cut them much slack.

For all the older kids, Josiah on up, I do hold them responsible when they do not at least nibble at the edges of questioning and change.

It's very, very, very, very hard to question anything pertaining to their faith because questioning is equated to lack of personal faith, to lack of the right heart condition, lack of relationship with God, a dulled conscience, worldliness/weakness, and worst of all apostasy.

[Shadoewolf]

Isn't it hot in Arkansas? Why oh why is that poor baby so bundled up in that IG photo? At his age, he should be able to regulate his body temperature, outdoors in 80 degree weather. I had a July baby and did not bundle him up like he was in a January snowstorm.

instagram.com/p/2tci2rrs9G/

I asked about this last week. Its been up and down but nothing that would require Izzy to constantly be in long rompers other than at night. Its also humid as all hell, unless those fabrics wick moisture away the poor kid has got to be sweltering. The general rule of thumb is to dress the baby as you would dress yourself for the weather. Of course for Jill that's always being covered up.

[eh02]

It's very, very, very, very hard to question anything pertaining to their faith because questioning is equated to lack of personal faith, to lack of the right heart condition, lack of relationship with God, a dulled conscience, worldliness/weakness, and worst of all apostasy.

THIS. Exactly this. Anyone who has been through this knows how true this is. It is why I still have a lot of sympathy even for the adults in fundie communities; even if I still 100% hold them accountable for their actions. I can't help but feel a little bad for them for living with that kind of fear because I know very much what it feels like.

You learn to even doubt your own doubt. You are so terrified of questioning anything that you develop elaborate mental tricks to redirect any wandering thoughts back to the way you were programmed, because questioning one "truth" means you're questioning ALL of them. It is NOT easy to finally get to the point where you can admit you don't believe, and maybe never really did.

Coming to terms with doubting or rejecting faith is probably the single most terrifying thing someone like a Duggar could ever do. It's like jumping off a cliff that you can never come back from because they SO deeply believe that opening yourself up to questioning things means you will be sucked into a black hole of temptation and Satan will start tempting you to believe all sorts of lies. But when I finally made that jump myself, it was like sudden freedom. No more fear. Like I was finally able to live my life and be honest with myself. It was incredible.

[sbroh]

I had a June baby and we kept the air conditioning on all summer to keep the temp constant and so we could have the windows closed to not have any loud unexpected noises from outside to that would wake us and rob us if what little sleep we were getting.

This could be the case with them too, you never know. The guidelines say to keep baby's room between 68-72, so if they have it at 68 or so I'm sure him being bundled like that for sleep is just fine.

[bal maiden]

And yes! I'm sorry if this is an unpopular opinion but imo she is too dependent on Derick and expects too much from him. Did any of us have our hubbies beside us during labor, being our slave the whole time? no? well she did! And she even wouldn't let him crack jokes at the goofy classes she dragged him along with her to attend! Sorry but come on. Most guys just aren't going to be as saintly as Derick.

Re: bolded - ummm, yeah? My husband was by my side every minute. I'd have been very unhappy had he done a Josh Duggar and taken a nap!

Someone asked pages back if all of us who are calling for a bit more perspective in this discussion are crunchy, pro home birth types. I think that that question suggests that the nature of the criticisms are perhaps being misunderstood, but I will put my cards on the table anyway... Yes, I did have my baby at home, with a midwife. However, in the UK all midwives are trained professionals, and they handle most low risk women. The recommendation here is now that low risk women have better outcomes when giving birth at home or in a midwife led birthing centre, as opposed to in an obstetric unit.

My decision to deliver at home was based in an understanding of the relationship between stress/cortisol and its negative effect on oxytocin release/progress in labour, and, as hospitals stress me out, I knew I had a better chance at a safe, straightforward delivery in a lower stress environment, so long as no other risk factors were present. I am mildly crunchy, but I am also into evidence-based medicine :wink-kitty:

[bal maiden]

I'm interested in your thoughts on this as well, when you're up for it. :)

I will try to answer this at some point! Alas, most of my FJ time at present is reading on my phone whilst nursing, which is not entirely conducive to typing intelligent answers. Nor is the post-baby hazy brain fuzz for that matter... (Someone please reassure me that that goes away and structured thought comes back?! Otherwise I may have to switch career paths to something more Gothard-approved, like gazing adoringly at my headship).

[Lucy H]

Are you all ganging up on my comment? I can't tell lol But i do use laughing emojis and i did say "failed" and "wimp".

Sorry if i was offensive. I'm tired and bitchy today. Maybe we're all on the same cycle. :cracking-up:

Jill shouldn't have called her labor 70 hours if she was just barely started. I went through a couple of days of progressively stronger contractions too with my second baby. IMO labor is when it's so much that nothing else can be done, no chores, no walking around, no restaurants, no chiro visits, no pedis. Labor is having the baby, imo. So yes, I'm going to play the wimpy card if she's going to act like that's labor.

And yes! I'm sorry if this is an unpopular opinion but imo she is too dependent on Derick and expects too much from him. Did any of us have our hubbies beside us during labor, being our slave the whole time? no? well she did! And she even wouldn't let him crack jokes at the goofy classes she dragged him along with her to attend! Sorry but come on. Most guys just aren't going to be as saintly as Derick.

When i said failed i meant she should admit that her way was dangerous. She failed by not admitting that it was risky to try to do this at home with being so far past her due date with a gigantic baby. And castor oil makes babies poop = meconium, it was pretty much guaranteed to happen.

My husband was at my side for my entire labor. It was 24 hours long, 36 if you count the first contractions and he was there. Was he a "slave?" That s a really insulting term for a man who tried to do everything he could to help me cope with labor.

My daughter is 28 and back then epidurals were a lot less common. I had no pain releif, nothing, until I finally had an epidural for a c-section. As for the dopey childbirth classes, we did Lamaze, which was popular back then. No one dragged my husband there, he was anxious to go so he could learn how to help me. The techniques we learned together did help. My daughter in law had a baby last fall mostly unmediated. She had an epidural right before she started to push and says it was largely ineffective. My son told us who helpless he felt when she was having intense contractions and he didn't know what to do. Some childbirth classes would have been good for both of them.

I am very critical of Jill and Derrick's decisions during labor but his attention to her and willingness to go to Bradley classes is admirable. I wish he had encouraged her to go to,the hospital earlier, if in fact he didn't. It's another thing we don't know.

[Fascinated]

THIS. Exactly this. Anyone who has been through this knows how true this is. It is why I still have a lot of sympathy even for the adults in fundie communities; even if I still 100% hold them accountable for their actions. I can't help but feel a little bad for them for living with that kind of fear because I know very much what it feels like.

You learn to even doubt your own doubt. You are so terrified of questioning anything that you develop elaborate mental tricks to redirect any wandering thoughts back to the way you were programmed, because questioning one "truth" means you're questioning ALL of them. It is NOT easy to finally get to the point where you can admit you don't believe, and maybe never really did.

Coming to terms with doubting or rejecting faith is probably the single most terrifying thing someone like a Duggar could ever do. It's like jumping off a cliff that you can never come back from because they SO deeply believe that opening yourself up to questioning things means you will be sucked into a black hole of temptation and Satan will start tempting you to believe all sorts of lies. But when I finally made that jump myself, it was like sudden freedom. No more fear. Like I was finally able to live my life and be honest with myself. It was incredible.

I loved your post. It really gives me, as someone who has never been in that kind of situation, real insight into what these kids may be going through. I mean, at least SOME of them must be questioning as you did? It must be terrifying (as it was for you). But reading your last few sentences filled me with joy. In just a few words you describe your feelings so beautifully. We can't realistically hope that all these kids will find that freedom, but we can dream, can't we?

[halcionne]

THIS. Exactly this. Anyone who has been through this knows how true this is. It is why I still have a lot of sympathy even for the adults in fundie communities; even if I still 100% hold them accountable for their actions. I can't help but feel a little bad for them for living with that kind of fear because I know very much what it feels like.

You learn to even doubt your own doubt. You are so terrified of questioning anything that you develop elaborate mental tricks to redirect any wandering thoughts back to the way you were programmed, because questioning one "truth" means you're questioning ALL of them. It is NOT easy to finally get to the point where you can admit you don't believe, and maybe never really did.

Coming to terms with doubting or rejecting faith is probably the single most terrifying thing someone like a Duggar could ever do. It's like jumping off a cliff that you can never come back from because they SO deeply believe that opening yourself up to questioning things means you will be sucked into a black hole of temptation and Satan will start tempting you to believe all sorts of lies. But when I finally made that jump myself, it was like sudden freedom. No more fear. Like I was finally able to live my life and be honest with myself. It was incredible.

I went through a similar process and my family isn't even fundie. I still have moments like your second paragraph, and I've been irreligious since I was thirteen; almost thiry years. A childhood of Southern Baptist doctrine, and constant reminders from my mom that we, as a family, were sinning by not actively attending most of the time, really did a number on me. I was only able to let go of a belief in heaven, hell, and the rapture a couple of years ago. I have had a fair amount of sex outside marriage--even had a kid and I've never been married, haha--but it took years to let go of guilt and shame around that. And masturbating. Don't even get me started. My sister still has some hangups in the sex department because of our religious upbringing. So I imagine a kid like a Duggar would have all of that, times a million. :(

[SassyPants]

I know it's totally wrong to think this way because those 2nd generation Duggars had no ability to research, experience or explore the world when their minds were developing (and are still developing for some), but no matter the similarities, there are some differences between a historically established religion and a cult like Gothard. In many religions, the power is in the Savior/Creator...how could anyone accept Gothardism and give Gothard that power...especially knowing his current history? What does a single man know about marriage? When did Gothard become an adult and headship via his own philosophy? Also, Gothard attended college- so was his philosophy to keep the masses stupid????

How could someone like Derick or even Ben willingly step into that world? Fame and lust really do overtake any common sense or logic.

[mountfirefly]

Also, the true love that breaks the spell is between two females. Sisters, yes, and i cried, it was beautiful. But some fundies invent things to get freaked out about.

Anyway, Frozen is only for girls, duh.

[hahe77]

That is one unhappy looking baby.