Jill Duggar Dillard, Derick Dillard, & Baby Israel - Part 2

[VelociRapture]

About the bolded-- can I say the most obnoxious thing is that when someone says something like, "I'm not sure if that's the case" to one of those assertions, the response is often-- "PROVE IT!" Which, I mean, it's not bad to offer up speculative evidence for your point of view, but the onus of proving something is not only on one party. This pops up a lot with the whole money thing. There seems to be an understanding that JB controls all TLC money, even for the married couples. That could be the case because I haven't read the TLC contracts. I find it unlikely to be true simply because that's not the way things would normally work, and I suspect TLC generally operates under typical contractual guidelines and not weird, special, patriarchial guidelines. But if you say that you find it hard to believe that JB controls money even for the married couples, suddenly you have to PROVE IT. Well, no. I can say "I think X because Y." It's valid to hold an opinion that you can't prove. It's also valid for someone else to an opposing opinion they can't prove, by the way. No one has to agree with each other. But it's usually good to have a reason to back up said opinion.

Is it bad I read your post and immediately thought of Schrodinger's cat? For instance:

It can neither be proved nor disproved that the cat inside the box is living or dead unless the box is opened. Until the box is opened, the cat is both alive and dead.

It can neither be proved nor disproved that Jill purposely put her child's life at risk during labor unless TLC airs additional footage or someone present speaks out. Until that happens, Jill both did and didn't put Israel's life at risk.

[OkToBeTakei]

As the "children," 3 of whom are half way or more to 30, grow older and move on to living their own lives, was the direction of this board and the topics discussed not supposed to change? If people here did not anticipate that progression, I am surprised. There is a difference between expectations for an adult vs a child. If Jill's behaviors and decisions are to be discussed within the same guidelines as Jonhannah's, the intentions of this board are off the mark. Personally, I think that's at the heart of the problem for those adult kids- the bar is too low, raise it and watch them do as well as their peers.

Further, if you have a show about role modeling for and educating others, it's probably best you start from the truth and make sure you actual know what you're talking about.

Yeah yeah, blah blah.

Translated as go away I want to carry on my bitching. I'm just trying to put a thin veneer of respectable on it.

[bal maiden]

Jesus H Christ, I was a massive twat in the first few years I left my parents' home, and my parents didn't even subscribe to an all-encompassing, fundamentalist ideology and lifestyle - I at least knew it was expected of me to make my own mind up about things, rather than continue to operate according to their will. I also didn't think their was an omnipotent deity who would rain doom and destruction on my head if I deviated from what I had been told my entire life was the Right Way To Be...

I hate to think what some on this forum would have made of my all-round twattery in my first years as an independent teen/adult... I certainly didn't emerge fully-formed and perfect, shedding all wrong assumptions and attitudes the moment I was independent. And I'm sure I'm not alone in that. I don't know why we expect Jill and others to be deprogrammed the moment they say I Do and get a shag. FFS.

[sbroh]

Do we need to start a Jill/Derick/etc part three thread where people are actually at least tangentially sticking to the topic of the thread?

[SassyPants]

Yeah yeah, blah blah.

Translated as go away I want to carry on my bitching. I'm just trying to put a thin veneer of respectable on it.

How about you stick to discussing the topic and not attacking others? I'd say that is equally offensive.

[Firiel]

Is it bad I read your post and immediately thought of Schrodinger's cat? For instance:

It can neither be proved nor disproved that the cat inside the box is living or dead unless the box is opened. Until the box is opened, the cat is both alive and dead.

It can neither be proved nor disproved that Jill purposely put her child's life at risk during labor unless TLC airs additional footage or someone present speaks out. Until that happens, Jill both did and didn't put Israel's life at risk.

8-)

It can be neither proved nor disproved that Jill gave birth to twins but sacrificed one of them in a Satanic ritual in her home. Therefore, she both did and didn't.

(This isn't against you, by the way, just a thought that your post provoked within me.)

I think sometimes people want to give a two points of view with equal "proof" the same footing, even though one seems almost bizarre in its unlikelihood. What mother would knowingly and purposefully put her child's life at risk for whatever reason (ratings? money?)? Probably not many. It's far more likely that Jill had an almost blind devotion to homebirth and seriously felt like it was best for everyone faaaaaaar past the point where it was in any way good for anyone. And then when her devotion was overcome by the reality of the situation, she realized the hospital was needed and so she went. I think that's a more likely understanding that better reflects the dangers of blind religious devotion (here transferred to a different ideology [homebirth]). It actually speaks to the dangers of fundamentalism MORE than "Jill purposefully risked her child's life because she's EVIL and RATINGZ and MONEYZ."

[OkToBeTakei]

About the bolded-- can I say the most obnoxious thing is that when someone says something like, "I'm not sure if that's the case" to one of those assertions, the response is often-- "PROVE IT!" Which, I mean, it's not bad to offer up speculative evidence for your point of view, but the onus of proving something is not only on one party. This pops up a lot with the whole money thing. There seems to be an understanding that JB controls all TLC money, even for the married couples. That could be the case because I haven't read the TLC contracts. I find it unlikely to be true simply because that's not the way things would normally work, and I suspect TLC generally operates under typical contractual guidelines and not weird, special, patriarchial guidelines. But if you say that you find it hard to believe that JB controls money even for the married couples, suddenly you have to PROVE IT. Well, no. I can say "I think X because Y." It's valid to hold an opinion that you can't prove. It's also valid for someone else to an opposing opinion they can't prove, by the way. No one has to agree with each other. But it's usually good to have a reason to back up said opinion.

Yes! What is that all about? Speculation is great. Except when it's not. The prove it thing is funny. Especially when the answer is well it was what they didn't show in the episode. Or a quote from an internet tabloid affair. OR even better that it was concluded after much discussion in another thread.

I think you are right though. A lot of misconceptions or annoying speculation would not irk if folks prefaced it with 'this is what I think.' Or 'in my imaginary world of duggar.'

I was actually concerned to read that folks actually believe online tabloids. Or even reference them.

The fact of the matter is the reality is probably quite boring. Duggars have been playing the media game for gain for years they are not stupid.

[OkToBeTakei]

How about you stick to discussing the topic and not attacking others? I'd say that is equally offensive.

OH..I'm sorry. Did I hit a nerve :lol:

[Firiel]

Jesus H Christ, I was a massive twat in the first few years I left my parents' home, and my parents didn't even subscribe to an all-encompassing, fundamentalist ideology and lifestyle - I at least knew it was expected of me to make my own mind up about things, rather than continue to operate according to their will. I also didn't think their was an omnipotent deity who would rain doom and destruction on my head if I deviated from what I had been told my entire life was the Right Way To Be...

I hate to think what some on this forum would have made of my all-round twattery in my first years as an independent teen/adult... I certainly didn't emerge fully-formed and perfect, shedding all wrong assumptions and attitudes the moment I was independent. And I'm sure I'm not alone in that. I don't know why we expect Jill and others to be deprogrammed the moment they say I Do and get a shag. FFS.

And considering the number of posters here who still haven't shed overt sexist, patriarchal assumptions (hell, sometimes I haven't!), I think it's exceptionally over-the-top to expect these women to do so the second they say "I do."

Hell, I "submitted" all through my first marriage despite being educated and feminist because "better safe than sorry."

[OkToBeTakei]

8-)

It can be neither proved nor disproved that Jill gave birth to twins but sacrificed one of them in a Satanic ritual in her home. Therefore, she both did and didn't.

(This isn't against you, by the way, just a thought that your post provoked within me.)

I think sometimes people want to give a two points of view with equal "proof" the same footing, even though one seems almost bizarre in its unlikelihood. What mother would knowingly and purposefully put her child's life at risk for whatever reason (ratings? money?)? Probably not many. It's far more likely that Jill had an almost blind devotion to homebirth and seriously felt like it was best for everyone faaaaaaar past the point where it was in any way good for anyone. And then when her devotion was overcome by the reality of the situation, she realized the hospital was needed and so she went. I think that's a more likely understanding that better reflects the dangers of blind religious devotion (here transferred to a different ideology [homebirth]). It actually speaks to the dangers of fundamentalism MORE than "Jill purposefully risked her child's life because she's EVIL and RATINGZ and MONEYZ."

What is more bizarre is the feeling earlier in this thread that folks felt 'owed' an answer. That additional footage even existed. That anybody who was there would speak out. WHY would they? The more bizarre the accusations got the more folks clamoured for this mysterious answer.

That was plain weird.

[javafriend]

As a long time lurker and a very occasional poster, it seems like there are more Duggar daughter defenders now active on this board. In my eyes, the married daughters who agree to be paid in exchange for putting their lives on television have made their deal with the devil. It should come as no surprise that people can and will voice their opinions about what they see on a T.V. show.

Rather than trying to get people here to stop talking and speculating about them, wouldn't it make more sense to contact the Duggars and suggest they keep their private lives private?

[Firiel]

As a long time lurker and a very occasional poster, it seems like there are more Duggar daughter defenders now active on this board. In my eyes, the married daughters who agree to be paid in exchange for putting their lives on television have made their deal with the devil. It should come as no surprise that people can and will voice their opinions about what they see on a T.V. show.

Rather than trying to get people here to stop talking and speculating about them, wouldn't it make more sense to contact the Duggars and suggest they keep their private lives private?

Actually, it seems to me that a lot of the people sick of the kind of discussions happening in the Duggar sub-forum ARE long-time posters. I mean, just looking at this thread, you have OKTBT, nelliebellie, and Palimpset all expressing frustration at the current state of the Duggar sub-forum. Now, their position as long-time posters doesn't mean their opinions are more valid. But they are all long-time posters who have certainly never been Duggar defenders in the past. It's not some new group of leghumpers. The Bates get all of those. ;)

EDIT: I wanted to add that I don't mean any of my comments on this topic as attacks. Forum culture fascinates me. In fact, I've read multiple heated FJ fights from the past. It's just something I find very interesting.

[bal maiden]

I think there is a difference between defending the Duggar daughters, and pointing out that expectations of them - and therefore some of the criticisms targeted at them - are unreasonable for this point in their lives.

[mollysmom]

But Michelle knows way more than any doctor. I mean....after all....she's had 19 kids! :roll:

[formergothardite]

Do we need to start a Jill/Derick/etc part three thread where people are actually at least tangentially sticking to the topic of the thread?

It really isn't a good Free Jinger thread unless it contains at least two topics. :lol: Seriously, no one sticks to the topic around here. You can start off a thread discussing a Duggar being seen buying something at Walmart and end up with a discussion about how the ancient Sumerians made soap. And that is one of the things that makes FJ so amazing, you can learn so much about obscure subjects. :lol:

[Palimpsest]

Actually, it seems to me that a lot of the people sick of the kind of discussions happening in the Duggar sub-forum ARE long-time posters. I mean, just looking at this thread, you have OKTBT, nelliebellie, and Palimpset all expressing frustration at the current state of the Duggar sub-forum. Now, their position as long-time posters doesn't mean their opinions are more valid. But they are all long-time posters who have certainly never been Duggar defenders in the past. It's not some new group of leghumpers. The Bates get all of those. ;)

EDIT: I wanted to add that I don't mean any of my comments on this topic as attacks. Forum culture fascinates me. In fact, I've read multiple heated FJ fights from the past. It's just something I find very interesting.

Yes. Exactly. I've been discussing the Duggars for years (I originally started posting on FJ yuku) and have never defended them. Far from it. I first noticed the Duggars for their religious views, which I detest, and then became increasingly disturbed by their decision to put their children on non-reality TV.

I have to repeat: there are plenty of important things to criticize the Duggars for without descending into making crap up just for the sake of it or perseverating about tiny details.

I'm laughing my socks off at the thought I could be mistaken for a leghumper simply because I suggest that some people's speculation is going beyond the limits of good sense. Or good taste. And even though those are subjective opinions I still have the right to express them. This would all blow up on a fairly busy work day though.

Trying to bring this back to topic: It is quite interesting, but also sad, that the married adult off-spring are now apparently willing to sacrifice the privacy of a second generation by selling their own souls to TLC. I'd far rather discuss that than Jill's shoes or lack thereof.

[Lucy H]

I can't get over how big (read: long) this kid is. He looks like he could be standing with support tomorrow and walking in a week. Derick posted his weight at one month, but I'm curious how much longer he's gotten...

[attachment=0]giantbabyIzzy.png[/attachment]

I have a son through adoption who was born weighing 5 lb 5 oz. as and as an adult he is 5' 7". Even as an infant he had great control of his body, climbed everything in sight, and walked at ten months.

My daughter was born to us and my husband and I are both over six feet tall. She weighed 10 lb 13 oz at birth and as an adult she is six feet tall. When she was an infant and young child her large size made it harder for her to control her body. She was like a long legged puppy, kind of flopping all over the place and walked at thirteen months.

So, from anecdotal evidence and a huge sample size of two, I would say that large babies may take long to walk than small babies

[Lucy H]

I am a new poster here but a long time internet board user and I find the discussion here to be interesting. Some long time posters think some newer people are posting in a way that is contrary to the culture of the board. Fair enough, but it is a public board and as long as the postings don't violate board guidelines it is open for people to post as they like. If you don't like the direction the conversation is going start it in a new direction. I'm skipping over the long posts on whether speculation is propriety or inappropriate because it is boring to me although I am sure it is important to others.

[Lucy H]

I am one of the people who have speculated on ththe details of Izzy's birth. I have cisit d the other site and seen the posting of someone claiming to an OB. I have bough medical knowledge to believe that either that person is an OB or she has been a L/D nurse or something like that. I find her posts credible.

I went through a period of no Duggar watching and missed some of the episodes. I was watching th Duggar birth episodes last weekend and was astounding that we saw Josie's birth, actualal footage from the ER. We also saw footage of the events leading up to the birth and they seeing accurate to me. We have als seen three of Anna's births, inc,using the famous toilet birth, and again they seem accurate.

For Jill's birth, TLC told us that there would be a VSE of Jill's home birth, I saw the promos, but instead we got 90% filler of old stuff and 10% birth. So why? To me TLC is hiding the details. I think things went very wrong and that Jill contributed to that.

[Lucy H]

I'm breaking this into two because of length.

I think things went wrong and Jill comtributed to that because of the limitations of her upbringing. She has little knowledge of the real world and for years no way of getting any. We think she has access to the internet now, but how much time did she have to be explore, being busy raising kids and studying midwifery?

She was raised to believe that a little dabbling in things makes you an expert. She studied midwifery with someone who may not be the best, and while she attended a large number of births she experienced is nothing like a conventionally trained OB or CNM would have. She thought she was an expert in childbirth when she is not.

Her parents told her that God was in charge of all things and that everything that happened is according to his will, so her labor would progress under god's protection and control.

So, she MAY have made bad decisions that led to he and Izzy being in danger. I happen to think she did and that TLC hid it. The danger is in other young women thinking that Jill is an example to be followed. Sure, she I young but not that young. She is an adult and responsible for her decisions even if they were shaped by her parents. I myself would like the details although of course she has no obligation to provide them.

Yep, lots of speculation in my opinion. Ignore it if you like.

[Furbabies]

[quote="

I mean we have degreed law professionals apparently on FJ (I love the fact this is now a title

[formergothardite]

Yes. Exactly. I've been discussing the Duggars for years (I originally started posting on FJ yuku) and have never defended them. Far from it. I first noticed the Duggars for their religious views, which I detest, and then became increasingly disturbed by their decision to put their children on non-reality TV.

I have to repeat: there are plenty of important things to criticize the Duggars for without descending into making crap up just for the sake of it or perseverating about tiny details.

I'm laughing my socks off at the thought I could be mistaken for a leghumper simply because I suggest that some people's speculation is going beyond the limits of good sense. Or good taste. And even though those are subjective opinions I still have the right to express them. This would all blow up on a fairly busy work day though.

Trying to bring this back to topic: It is quite interesting, but also sad, that the married adult off-spring are now apparently willing to sacrifice the privacy of a second generation by selling their own souls to TLC. I'd far rather discuss that than Jill's shoes or lack thereof.

I think reality television does something to a person, especially people who were thrust into it at an impressionable age like Jill was. There is something about selling your life as entertainment that fucks people up big time and I think it is hard for them to leave. Add in that Jill has been most likely taught to suppress her own emotions and do what her "authorities" tell her to do with no questions and it isn't surprising that she is putting her own children into this lifestyle. It would cut down on the Duggar ratings big time if she had refused to film her wedding, birth or allow her child to be filmed for the show. I'm sure there is a lot of pressure to continue on or it might be something that she doesn't even realize she could stop doing. She might not even realize she has the option to say no.

[Firiel]

I am one of the people who have speculated on ththe details of Izzy's birth. I have cisit d the other site and seen the posting of someone claiming to an OB. I have bough medical knowledge to believe that either that person is an OB or she has been a L/D nurse or something like that. I find her posts credible.

I went through a period of no Duggar watching and missed some of the episodes. I was watching th Duggar birth episodes last weekend and was astounding that we saw Josie's birth, actualal footage from the ER. We also saw footage of the events leading up to the birth and they seeing accurate to me. We have als seen three of Anna's births, inc,using the famous toilet birth, and again they seem accurate.

For Jill's birth, TLC told us that there would be a VSE of Jill's home birth, I saw the promos, but instead we got 90% filler of old stuff and 10% birth. So why? To me TLC is hiding the details. I think things went very wrong and that Jill contributed to that.

I mean, it's possible. But I think it's also equally likely that because Jill had a fairly traumatic birthing experience, after it was all said and done, she didn't feel like broadcasting that experience to the nation in detail. It could have been Jill's choice entirely. And that's fine. If that happened, I'm glad she was able to revoke her consent to show such a troubling moment on national television, and I hope it helps her realize that she doesn't have to sell her and her children's lives on television.

Now, I don't doubt that Jill's blind devotion to home birth caused her to cling to that idea far longer than most of us would have which could have contributed to needing a c-section or being in labor so long or whatever.

[OkToBeTakei]

I am one of the people who have speculated on ththe details of Izzy's birth. I have cisit d the other site and seen the posting of someone claiming to an OB. I have bough medical knowledge to believe that either that person is an OB or she has been a L/D nurse or something like that. I find her posts credible.

I went through a period of no Duggar watching and missed some of the episodes. I was watching th Duggar birth episodes last weekend and was astounding that we saw Josie's birth, actualal footage from the ER. We also saw footage of the events leading up to the birth and they seeing accurate to me. We have als seen three of Anna's births, inc,using the famous toilet birth, and again they seem accurate.

For Jill's birth, TLC told us that there would be a VSE of Jill's home birth, I saw the promos, but instead we got 90% filler of old stuff and 10% birth. So why? To me TLC is hiding the details. I think things went very wrong and that Jill contributed to that.

Ben and Jessa opting not to broadcast the holy first lip smacker gave me a sliver of hope they are actually learning. The awkward horror of Josh and anna's Dyson moment.

Toilet birth may have given Jill some pause.

The OB is only commenting on exactly the same thing you saw remember.

Now suspend the speculation conspiracy train for a just one moment and remember that Jill also watched Josie's birth and yes Anna's three births, toilet and all the thank you Jesus and obvious pain. Maybe she decided yes I would like the birth filmed but my husband and I do not want that much intrusion. TLC will advertise all kinds of bullshit to get viewers. You know it could be just that simple, still a speculation though. Just not a very exciting one.

The fact you find the issue at hand boring and identify as a new user is interesting. Seems to match what other's are 'speculating' in another thread. :think: (Not a dig at you personally.)

Not sure how many users actually check other parts of the board.

[lascuba]

Yes. Exactly. I've been discussing the Duggars for years (I originally started posting on FJ yuku) and have never defended them. Far from it. I first noticed the Duggars for their religious views, which I detest, and then became increasingly disturbed by their decision to put their children on non-reality TV.

I have to repeat: there are plenty of important things to criticize the Duggars for without descending into making crap up just for the sake of it or perseverating about tiny details.

I'm laughing my socks off at the thought I could be mistaken for a leghumper simply because I suggest that some people's speculation is going beyond the limits of good sense. Or good taste. And even though those are subjective opinions I still have the right to express them. This would all blow up on a fairly busy work day though.

Trying to bring this back to topic: It is quite interesting, but also sad, that the married adult off-spring are now apparently willing to sacrifice the privacy of a second generation by selling their own souls to TLC. I'd far rather discuss that than Jill's shoes or lack thereof.

But hasn't that always been the case? I haven't been here consistently for that long, but back in the TwoP days speculation on the Duggars--and every other reality tv person--was ridiculously over the top a good chunk of the time, as if people were discussing soap opera plot lines rather than the heavily edited lives of very weird people. I'm seriously asking--is it that the level of the OTT stuff has gotten so much worse, or is it that now that they're grown, kids that were liked and treated like victims people were all rooting for are now getting hit with negative attention, instead of the vitriol being limited to Michelle, Jim Bob, and Josh?