Jill Duggar Dillard, Derick Dillard, & Baby Israel - Part 2

[Firiel]

I think reality television does something to a person, especially people who were thrust into it at an impressionable age like Jill was. There is something about selling your life as entertainment that fucks people up big time and I think it is hard for them to leave. Add in that Jill has been most likely taught to suppress her own emotions and do what her "authorities" tell her to do with no questions and it isn't surprising that she is putting her own children into this lifestyle. It would cut down on the Duggar ratings big time if she had refused to film her wedding, birth or allow her child to be filmed for the show. I'm sure there is a lot of pressure to continue on or it might be something that she doesn't even realize she could stop doing. She might not even realize she has the option to say no.

Additionally, I don't think the Duggars have seen/noticed the really negative effects of being entertainment yet. There was another thread about why the Duggar family hasn't imploded yet. And they haven't. The Honey Boo Boo family has seen what happens when your life falls apart on national television. I'm sure the older kids and adults in that situation understand really well now how selling your family for entertainment backfires. Jill seems to have had a pretty charmed life once TLC showed up. The cameras cut back some of the more overtly harmful Duggar practices like physical discipline. The cameras introduced the kids to culture and travel and physical possessions and, hell, enough FOOD and SPACE. Plus, Jill seems extroverted and pretty open, so the cameras maybe didn't even bother her that much privacy-wise. She was still a sister-mom which is shitty, but it seems like a role she actually genuinely enjoyed. I think we (fairly) assume that those things came with a cost, but I'm not sure that all the Duggar children understand that because they haven't felt it in their lives yet (I'm sure some have, to varying degrees, of course). I suspect Jill interprets TLC as good for her and her family growing up, so it must be good for her family now.

Jill seems very naive and trusting (and pretty genuine) to me. I wonder what will happen when "doing all the right things" doesn't lead to all the right results. That often causes people to re-think things.

[sense and nonsense]

Trying to bring this back to topic: It is quite interesting, but also sad, that the married adult off-spring are now apparently willing to sacrifice the privacy of a second generation by selling their own souls to TLC. I'd far rather discuss that than Jill's shoes or lack thereof.

Hmm. I want to add to this discussion. This is potentially an interesting discussion, but if I said that I think Jill/Jessa/Josh like the attention they receive for their beliefs am I violating your unwritten board culture rules? Is it too much speculation to say that the married children like the easy source of income, actually lack any employable skills, and they are well aware of this fact? Am I attacking them unnecessarily? Would this kind of reasoning be in line with the FJ of the good old times?

I'm interested to see you answer the question your post posed without heavy speculation about the personality traits of the married children, which we have a limited understanding of through their weekly 5 minute appearances on the show. I'm genuinely confused right more as to how you would discuss this topic without assuming many things about the Duggar couples.

Anyway, I think I've had enough of certain people on this Duggar forum. You have full right to continue along this kind of discussion, but I think I'll stick to areas of FJ where I don't have to be worried about whether certain rude users will find my post appropriate or not, bully me, or personally attack me. Not that I care if you continue to be rude or not. You do you. I can't stand it, and don't care about the Duggar family enough to subject myself to this.

[FakePigtails]

I am one of the people who have speculated on ththe details of Izzy's birth. I have cisit d the other site and seen the posting of someone claiming to an OB. I have bough medical knowledge to believe that either that person is an OB or she has been a L/D nurse or something like that. I find her posts credible.

I went through a period of no Duggar watching and missed some of the episodes. I was watching th Duggar birth episodes last weekend and was astounding that we saw Josie's birth, actualal footage from the ER. We also saw footage of the events leading up to the birth and they seeing accurate to me. We have als seen three of Anna's births, inc,using the famous toilet birth, and again they seem accurate.

For Jill's birth, TLC told us that there would be a VSE of Jill's home birth, I saw the promos, but instead we got 90% filler of old stuff and 10% birth. So why? To me TLC is hiding the details. I think things went very wrong and that Jill contributed to that.

I remember that poster, doodlebug, from back on TWOP when Michelle was still adding to her quiver. While everything on the internet needs to be taken with a grain of salt and I tend towards being a skeptic myself, I personally think that poster's legit.

I honestly don't get the hate-fest against much of the birth discussion. Some of it was over-the-top, but considering J&D were directly quoted sharing important information in People (a grain of salt magazine, sure, but far from the Weekly World News and it's where the Duggars have shared all their recent news), I don't get fussing about people riding the ISB around what happened to cause the disparities between that, what aired, and well-known medical practices. TLC and the Duggars themselves have a history of white-washing, and in this specific issue, the tie between fundies and crap midwives is well-known.

Yeah, some of it made me roll my eyes, but I just went on to the next posts. If it bothers someone, quote and point out that it's over the top or an assumption. The ISB has been around here for ages, and I don't remember it being such a problem before. Maybe we need to be more clear when we're doing that?

[OkToBeTakei]

But hasn't that always been the case? I haven't been here consistently for that long, but back in the TwoP days speculation on the Duggars--and every other reality tv person--was ridiculously over the top a good chunk of the time, as if people were discussing soap opera plot lines rather than the heavily edited lives of very weird people. I'm seriously asking--is it that the level of the OTT stuff has gotten so much worse, or is it that now that they're grown, kids that were liked and treated like victims people were all rooting for are now getting hit with negative attention, instead of the vitriol being limited to Michelle, Jim Bob, and Josh?

That's a good point. I think it has got a bit TWOPPY.

Also yes the level of vitriol seems extreme. We used to joke about JB and Chelle leave and cleave. Folks would want to offer them a home send them to college :lol: Now they want to rip apart the way they stand everything they wear and make crap up to bitch about.

If they ever happen upon FJ it will merely reinforce what their parents have told them all along. What on earth will be attractive about breaking out of those beliefs when faced with so much hatred anyway..just for.....standing incorrectly.

[Firiel]

But hasn't that always been the case? I haven't been here consistently for that long, but back in the TwoP days speculation on the Duggars--and every other reality tv person--was ridiculously over the top a good chunk of the time, as if people were discussing soap opera plot lines rather than the heavily edited lives of very weird people. I'm seriously asking--is it that the level of the OTT stuff has gotten so much worse, or is it that now that they're grown, kids that were liked and treated like victims people were all rooting for are now getting hit with negative attention, instead of the vitriol being limited to Michelle, Jim Bob, and Josh?

I do think that contributes to things. But I would argue that that's okay--not that Jill and Jessa and Josh (he works for a hate group, after all!) should be cut ALL THE SLACK for everything they do but that it's important to look at them still as products of their upbringing and victims of JB and M's fundamentalism. JB and M still bear the onus of the blame because they CHOSE fundamentalism and in doing so, took that choice away from their children (to the best of their ability). The kids face responsibility for their own actions, especially when their actions hurt others. But I'm squeeked out by how quickly they "fall from grace." It's like they are victims the day before their weddings and 100% culpable the day after their weddings. As if they aren't the same person with all the same pressures and fears and beliefs because they are now "free" and because the authority has transferred from their fathers to their husbands. It seems to lack nuance to me, and I think it fails to recognize the real dangers of fundamentalism in favor of... something else, but I'm not sure exactly what.

[VelociRapture]

Hmm. I want to add to this discussion. This is potentially an interesting discussion, but if I said that I think Jill/Jessa/Josh like the attention they receive for their beliefs am I violating your unwritten board culture rules? Is it too much speculation to say that the married children like the easy source of income, actually lack any employable skills, and they are well aware of this fact? Am I attacking them unnecessarily? Would this kind of reasoning be in line with the FJ of the good old times?

I'm interested to see you answer the question your post posed without heavy speculation about the personality traits of the married children, which we have a limited understanding of through their weekly 5 minute appearances on the show. I'm genuinely confused right more as to how you would discuss this topic without assuming many things about the Duggar couples.

Anyway, I think I've had enough of certain people on this Duggar forum. You have full right to continue along this kind of discussion, but I think I'll stick to areas of FJ where I don't have to be worried about whether certain rude users will find my post appropriate or not, bully me, or personally attack me. Not that I care if you continue to be rude or not. You do you. I can't stand it, and don't care about the Duggar family enough to subject myself to this.

I said this earlier, but I'll say it again:

My personal rule when it comes to posting is to avoid generalizations and to avoid personal attacks on the Duggar kids (married or unmarried). If the discussion is about whether or not the kids have employable skills, enjoy the easy money, or enjoy attention then that's fine with me. Examples:

- If a poster comes into this thread and asks, "Can't castor oil during labor be harmful?" or "Do you think that the way Jill was raised had any impact on decisions she made during labor?" then that's ok. It's perfectly acceptable to criticize the adult married children's choices, especially once they become parents.

- If it descends into, "Jill obviously loves the attention - she must have put Israel's life in jeopardy during labor to get more attention" or "Jill obviously doesn't love her baby because there are no super cuddly pictures of her with Israel," then that isn't ok. Not because it isn't true (it could be), but because the hypothetical poster is making a judgement without offering any concrete evidence to back it up - in other words, they're committing character assassination. There is plenty to criticize about the Duggars without descending to that level.

Basically, in my own opinion, whether I call someone out or not boils down to context, relevance, and tone. If someone is honestly curious about something concerning the Duggars then that's fine - but there are posters who simply like to lash out at the Duggars in an ugly way because they can.

As HappyAtheist said, we aren't a fan site but we also aren't a free for all when it comes to hate. If you venture too far in either direction be prepared to get called out for it.

[lascuba]

I do think that contributes to things. But I would argue that that's okay--not that Jill and Jessa and Josh (he works for a hate group, after all!) should be cut ALL THE SLACK for everything they do but that it's important to look at them still as products of their upbringing and victims of JB and M's fundamentalism. JB and M still bear the onus of the blame because they CHOSE fundamentalism and in doing so, took that choice away from their children (to the best of their ability). The kids face responsibility for their own actions, especially when their actions hurt others. But I'm squeeked out by how quickly they "fall from grace." It's like they are victims the day before their weddings and 100% culpable the day after their weddings. As if they aren't the same person with all the same pressures and fears and beliefs because they are now "free" and because the authority has transferred from their fathers to their husbands. It seems to lack nuance to me, and I think it fails to recognize the real dangers of fundamentalism in favor of... something else, but I'm not sure exactly what.

I completely agree with that. I've never liked Jill (I don't like insistently perky people like that irl, either), but it gave me pause when so many people here who previously defended her turned so quickly once she got engaged/married.

[SassyPants]

Have Josh and Anna not chosen fundamentalism for their kids?

What about the Dillards? Has Izzy been sold to TLC at the ripe old age of 1 month?

If the parents are not to be held responsible and accountable for these decisions, who is?????

Fundamentalism is affecting another generation, so is it best to ignore the dangers? How many years do you get to eff up another generation before your behaviors are or should be questioned?

[Firiel]

Have Josh and Anna not chosen fundamentalism for their kids?

What about the Dillards? Has Izzy been sold to TLC at the ripe old age of 1 month?

If the parents are not to be held responsible and accountable for these decisions, who is?????

Fundamentalism is affecting another generation, so is it best to ignore the dangers? How many years do you get to eff up another generation before your behaviors are or should be questioned?

To quote myself (I'm noticing I accidentally left out the word "should" in my last sentence-- the kids should face responsibility):

But I would argue that that's okay--not that Jill and Jessa and Josh (he works for a hate group, after all!) should be cut ALL THE SLACK for everything they do but that it's important to look at them still as products of their upbringing and victims of JB and M's fundamentalism. JB and M still bear the onus of the blame because they CHOSE fundamentalism and in doing so, took that choice away from their children (to the best of their ability). The kids face responsibility for their own actions, especially when their actions hurt others.

Absolutely. Jill and Derrick should be held accountable for continuing the cycle. They should be accountable for when they pimp out baby Izzy.

And Josh is absolutely responsible for working for a hate group and raising his kids in fundamentalism. That doesn't change the fact that Josh didn't have much of a choice after being married off at 20 with two kids by 24 and a job that pays the bills at a hate group. JB and M have forced him into a life where, by the time he would have begun questioning his beliefs (in his early 20s), he was tied down to a family and in a position where questioning his beliefs could create a situation where he was unable to provide for that family (he has NO skills that could get him a real job outside the FRC-- thanks, JB and M!). I think that's sad.

These second-generation fundies need to go through hell and high water to escape the lifestyle, a la Cynthia Jeub and Alicia Pennington. And the biggest problem with Christian fundamentalism is that very cycle. I think treating Jill/Jessa/Josh like they are 100% in control of their own lives ignores that particularly dangerous aspect of religious cults and instead makes it about individuals being assholes/bitches. The structure and the culture are the problems, not simply the individuals involved.

[halcionne]

I saw a photos of little Izzy today. He looks like JimBob

I'm catching up on this thread after reading about the, um, debate that's been going on here in another thread, and seeing this comment in the midst of the bickering made me for some reason. Thanks, LilahBelle! :clap:

[SassyPants]

To quote myself (I'm noticing I accidentally left out the word "should" in my last sentence-- the kids should face responsibility):

Absolutely. Jill and Derrick should be held accountable for continuing the cycle. They should be accountable for when they pimp out baby Izzy.

And Josh is absolutely responsible for working for a hate group and raising his kids in fundamentalism. That doesn't change the fact that Josh didn't have much of a choice after being married off at 20 with two kids by 24 and a job that pays the bills at a hate group. JB and M have forced him into a life where, by the time he would have begun questioning his beliefs (in his early 20s), he was tied down to a family and in a position where questioning his beliefs could create a situation where he was unable to provide for that family (he has NO skills that could get him a real job outside the FRC-- thanks, JB and M!). I think that's sad.

These second-generation fundies need to go through hell and high water to escape the lifestyle, a la Cynthia Jeub and Alicia Pennington. And the biggest problem with Christian fundamentalism is that very cycle. I think treating Jill/Jessa/Josh like they are 100% in control of their own lives ignores that particularly dangerous aspect of religious cults and instead makes it about individuals being assholes/bitches. The structure and the culture are the problems, not simply the individuals involved.

It would seem you cannot have it both ways where cults are involved. It's all or nothing. To get out would be hard and likely would mean having nothing, not even a relationship with one's family, and to stay in puts the next generation at risk and continues the cycle, so to speak.

So we can agree that staying in is dangerous and makes the kid parents culpable for continuing a destructive parenting model, but getting out would be very, very hard and maybe something the adult kids are ill equipped to do.

So they are screwed or they are screwed.

[bal maiden]

I think treating Jill/Jessa/Josh like they are 100% in control of their own lives ignores that particularly dangerous aspect of religious cults and instead makes it about individuals being assholes/bitches. The structure and the culture are the problems, not simply the individuals involved.

yesyesyesyesyes. You have encapsulated the problem nicely.

I think a few of us here keep trying to make this point; I am now starting to wonder if the reason it's not getting through is that it is essentially a sociological/liberal/lefty way of describing things - attributing behaviours to structural issues rather than individual agency, the latter being rather more right wing/individualist. Perhaps our political and social contexts are informing our views on the level and tone of acceptable snark.

*returns to ivory tower*.

[SassyPants]

The funding of a cult is the problem.

Cults die when money dries up-

[halcionne]

Aw, it looks like he has a cowlick. So cute. My 2.5 year old has one kinda like Woody on Toy Story. I'm a little worried that he'll always have his hair sticking up in the front. At least Izzy's is in the back. :lol:

Izzy is a huge baby. I wonder if all Jill's babies will be big. She may be out of luck about vbacs, if so.

Slightly OT, but I was wondering about the average weight of the babies Venessa Giron delivers. I didn't do any math, and I know fuck all about baby weights, but I thought 8 pounds would be about average and would expect to see a wide range of mostly 7-9 lb babies. I wasn't paying close attention when I looked at A Mommy's Butterfly FB, but I got the impression that she delivered a lot of nine pounders. Could she be advising a particular diet, for instance, that results in bigger babies? I think I've seen high protein mentioned here a time or two.

[Dovenoir]

So. Being oblivious to the bickering above. Was that the first Michelle and Izzy pic posted back there?

[OkToBeTakei]

yesyesyesyesyes. You have encapsulated the problem nicely.

I think a few of us here keep trying to make this point; I am now starting to wonder if the reason it's not getting through is that it is essentially a sociological/liberal/lefty way of describing things - attributing behaviours to structural issues rather than individual agency, the latter being rather more right wing/individualist. Perhaps our political and social contexts are informing our views on the level and tone of acceptable snark.

*returns to ivory tower*.

OR it's a Taylor Swift thing :lol:

[Palimpsest]

Warning: Off topic again so people grumpy at thread drift can skip. I tried to move the discussion to another thread, but no-one seems to want to come with me. :lol:

But hasn't that always been the case? I haven't been here consistently for that long, but back in the TwoP days speculation on the Duggars--and every other reality tv person--was ridiculously over the top a good chunk of the time, as if people were discussing soap opera plot lines rather than the heavily edited lives of very weird people. I'm seriously asking--is it that the level of the OTT stuff has gotten so much worse, or is it that now that they're grown, kids that were liked and treated like victims people were all rooting for are now getting hit with negative attention, instead of the vitriol being limited to Michelle, Jim Bob, and Josh?

Ah yes, but we are not TwoP and never have been, although we were happy to welcome TwoPers when that forum closed. A lot of the original members are/were refugees from TwoP. Most were banned or fed-up with warnings from Howard for going off topic with discussions of Fundies other than the Duggars. FJ yuku was self-moderated for a long time. We finally had to give up on that but we still prefer minimal rules. It seems to me that some (not a lot) of people are taking advantage of the lack of rules here, possibly because other current Duggar sites have more stringent ones. The Dwop mod (forget her name) would be pouncing on some of this stuff. I looked at Previously TV for comparison on Sunday. The mods there are getting a bit testy, why I am not sure.

Yes, I think the level of unpleasant speculation has gone OTT - for FJ. As others have said earlier in this thread, we have a lot of ExFundies here. Seeing the level of vitriol leveled at Jill and Jessa recently is disconcerting. They may be adult and married, but they are still victims of their upbringing. They may break free, and I hope they do. Even if they do, they won't go from zero to sixty overnight. At FJ, we have historically been quite sympathetic to those who are victims of their upbringing, while calling them out when deserved.

So people claiming that they can say what they want just because the Duggars are on TV, makes me blink a bit. We are not a fan site or a hate site. I'd vastly prefer to discuss the Duggars' behavior and TV "ministry," through the lens of their religious beliefs, as was the original purpose of FJ.

FJ has changed and adapted a lot over the years. However, newer posters should respect and try to understand the existing culture of a forum before they try to trample on it.

Does that make sense?

[bal maiden]

The funding of a cult is the problem.

Cults die when money dries up-

Nope, not the case. That's an enormous assumption and oversimplification. Cult proliferation is complex and depends on many variables, not least the nature of the beliefs themselves.

[SassyPants]

People also need to remember that there is a new generation of children that need to be protected. Mac is soon to be 6- she is impressionable.

It is going to be increasing hard for people to, within the context of comments, respect both her parents' decisions, and have concerns for she and her siblings.

Were Michelle and JB ever protected on the boards or was the snark regarding their decisions and behaviors always seen as acceptable?

[SassyPants]

Nope, not the case. That's an enormous assumption and oversimplification. Cult proliferation is complex and depends on many variables, not least the nature of the beliefs themselves.

Money is a variable- for sure.

[javafriend]

I agree that the Duggar kids are products of a warped world view and that their super fundamentalist upbringing has certainly shaped their choices. By that same reasoning, shouldn't we also acknowledge that Michelle and JBob's decisions are products of Gothard brainwashing and thus they should be subject to less criticism because they are victims too?

I feel sorry for all of them but I also think it is important to expose the fallacies and dangerous beliefs concealed by their "aw shucks, we're just Christians" demeanor. I don't see any problem with calling out hypocritical behavior or questioning the motives or actions of these young adults or their parents.

[Escapefromfundiedom]

To quote myself (I'm noticing I accidentally left out the word "should" in my last sentence-- the kids should face responsibility):

Absolutely. Jill and Derrick should be held accountable for continuing the cycle. They should be accountable for when they pimp out baby Izzy.

And Josh is absolutely responsible for working for a hate group and raising his kids in fundamentalism. That doesn't change the fact that Josh didn't have much of a choice after being married off at 20 with two kids by 24 and a job that pays the bills at a hate group. JB and M have forced him into a life where, by the time he would have begun questioning his beliefs (in his early 20s), he was tied down to a family and in a position where questioning his beliefs could create a situation where he was unable to provide for that family (he has NO skills that could get him a real job outside the FRC-- thanks, JB and M!). I think that's sad.

These second-generation fundies need to go through hell and high water to escape the lifestyle, a la Cynthia Jeub and Alicia Pennington. And the biggest problem with Christian fundamentalism is that very cycle. I think treating Jill/Jessa/Josh like they are 100% in control of their own lives ignores that particularly dangerous aspect of religious cults and instead makes it about individuals being assholes/bitches. The structure and the culture are the problems, not simply the individuals involved.

OMG YES. This is what I keep thinking when I see people accuse anyone who doesn't pile on with Jill and Jessa of being leghumpers.

My family was in ATI for awhile and even now...close to 20 yrs later and out of it for probably 15, my parents still hold on to some very Gothard-y attitudes about what kind of obedience/honor (words that are used interchangeably in that cult btw) due them from their ADULT children. And we didn't have it nearly as bad as the Duggar kids. There was spanking but no blanket training or plumbing line or chaperones or...you know...18 siblings. Even deviating slightly from the path my parents envisioned for me was enough to basically break our relationship for the better part of a decade. They essentially rained down fire and brimstone on my head, threatened me with hell and damnation and all sorts of eternal doom...

When people talk about Jill and Jessa and Josh like they're fully capable of just rejecting their background and leaving that lifestyle, you fail to account for the level of brainwashing these intellectual CHILDREN endured throughout their lifetime. They have been taught that honoring their father and mother (= OBEYING THEM EVEN IN ADULTHOOD) is the same thing as honoring God and failing to do so is the same as dishonoring/rejecting God. I've pointed out the same thing re: What It Means That Alyssa Bates Webster is Wearing Pants. Jill and Jessa (and Josh too) by virtue of their upbringing, have a severely diminished capacity for rejecting the lifestyle their parents chose for them. Even minor deviations may be construed by their famewhore parents as disobedience, apostasy and disgrace to the family, especially when their entire livelihood hinges on continuing the purity of the Duggar Brand.

So no...when I look at Jill and Jessa and see them largely perpetuating the same horrible cycles that were foisted on them by their parents, I do not see mature adults making bad decisions to continue in a damaging lifestyle. I see victims who have been victimized for so long that they cannot see a way out of that life - nor can they imagine trying.

NOW...when I look at the HUSBANDS of these girls, I feel rage. Because it's one thing if you were raised in this world and brainwashed from infancy to believe this garbage...it's another thing to be a relatively experienced, educated individual (Derick, I'm looking at you) and just dive into this cesspool headfirst. My theories are...either his education and experiences in life have not served him very well (and he is therefore stupid wet behind the ears and very very naive) or he's one of those Magic Pill thinkers and has some hole in his life that he's trying to fill with fundamentalism. Either way...Derick has a much greater responsibility for how he chooses to raise his son and direct his family than Jill...and from all appearances, he's letting JB (and Jill?) call the shots. I don't see that ending well...at least not for the Dilly kids.

[VelociRapture]

People also need to remember that there is a new generation of children that need to be protected. Mac is soon to be 6- she is impressionable.

It is going to be increasing hard for people to, within the context of comments, respect both her parents' decisions, and have concerns for she and her siblings.

Were Michelle and JB ever protected on the boards or was the snark regarding their decisions and behaviors always seen as acceptable?

Thats an interesting question. I'd like to see if anyone knows the answer to that.

My best guess is that, originally, they were viewed as just a weird family with a ton of kids. As people learned about their beliefs they realized that they weren't the harmless and loving family that they appeared to be - and that was probably around the time that sites like this first started gaining traction. I'm also guessing that most people felt the Duggar parents (Boob and Michelle) were fair game because they willingly chose to become part of this movement.

Again, that's just a guess and I can't know for sure. I'd love to hear from one of the Helpmeets or another person who would know though.

[OkToBeTakei]

I agree that the Duggar kids are products of a warped world view and that their super fundamentalist upbringing has certainly shaped their choices. By that same reasoning, shouldn't we also acknowledge that Michelle and JBob's decisions are products of Gothard brainwashing and thus they should be subject to less criticism because they are victims too?

I feel sorry for all of them but I also think it is important to expose the fallacies and dangerous beliefs concealed by their "aw shucks, we're just Christians" demeanor. I don't see any problem with calling out hypocritical behavior or questioning the motives or actions of these young adults or their parents.

Jim bob and Michelle were adults when they made the decision to follow Gothard. Adults who had the benefit of choice. Their children have never had this.

Josh has moved away, he is certainly more aware of the 'outside' world and probably therefore is making a more informed decision in his own beliefs. To some extent he is trapped as mentioned up-thread but he certainly has more opportunity to make choices.

The two girls have basically just moved a couple of miles away and nothing has changed for them in regard to choice or opportunity. By the time it might they will both probably have a ton of kids. It's pretty sad really.

[VelociRapture]

OMG YES. This is what I keep thinking when I see people accuse anyone who doesn't pile on with Jill and Jessa of being leghumpers.

My family was in ATI for awhile and even now...close to 20 yrs later and out of it for probably 15, my parents still hold on to some very Gothard-y attitudes about what kind of obedience/honor (words that are used interchangeably in that cult btw) due them from their ADULT children. And we didn't have it nearly as bad as the Duggar kids. There was spanking but no blanket training or plumbing line or chaperones or...you know...18 siblings. Even deviating slightly from the path my parents envisioned for me was enough to basically break our relationship for the better part of a decade. They essentially rained down fire and brimstone on my head, threatened me with hell and damnation and all sorts of eternal doom...

When people talk about Jill and Jessa and Josh like they're fully capable of just rejecting their background and leaving that lifestyle, you fail to account for the level of brainwashing these intellectual CHILDREN endured throughout their lifetime. They have been taught that honoring their father and mother (= OBEYING THEM EVEN IN ADULTHOOD) is the same thing as honoring God and failing to do so is the same as dishonoring/rejecting God. I've pointed out the same thing re: What It Means That Alyssa Bates Webster is Wearing Pants. Jill and Jessa (and Josh too) by virtue of their upbringing, have a severely diminished capacity for rejecting the lifestyle their parents chose for them. Even minor deviations may be construed by their famewhore parents as disobedience, apostasy and disgrace to the family, especially when their entire livelihood hinges on continuing the purity of the Duggar Brand.

So no...when I look at Jill and Jessa and see them largely perpetuating the same horrible cycles that were foisted on them by their parents, I do not see mature adults making bad decisions to continue in a damaging lifestyle. I see victims who have been victimized for so long that they cannot see a way out of that life - nor can they imagine trying.

NOW...when I look at the HUSBANDS of these girls, I feel rage. Because it's one thing if you were raised in this world and brainwashed from infancy to believe this garbage...it's another thing to be a relatively experienced, educated individual (Derick, I'm looking at you) and just dive into this cesspool headfirst. My theories are...either his education and experiences in life have not served him very well (and he is therefore stupid wet behind the ears and very very naive) or he's one of those Magic Pill thinkers and has some hole in his life that he's trying to fill with fundamentalism. Either way...Derick has a much greater responsibility for how he chooses to raise his son and direct his family than Jill...and from all appearances, he's letting JB (and Jill?) call the shots. I don't see that ending well...at least not for the Dilly kids.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Extremely well stated!

I've never been through what you've been through (and I'm very sorry you had to experience that). I completely agree with you though - these kidults were raised to have no critical thinking skills. Doubting what their parents - especially their father - tells them is essentially the same as doubting God and results in eternal damnation. That is not a threat that would have been mentioned once or twice - it would have been mentioned constantly in order to keep the kids in line. That threat wouldn't have been abstract the way it is for a lot of people on here - it would have been a very real and very constant threat to those kids.

As you said, the married kids are continuing the cycle - not because they are developmentally at the stage they should be but because they honestly fear their children will be eternally damned if they don't.

Should we call the kidults out on the bad choices they make? Absolutely! Should we make it into a personal attack or assume certain things about their characters in doing so? No. We should be focusing more on how the overall culture affects the individuals involved in it rather than simply lashing out at the individuals.