According to Jessa Duggar, atheists don't exist

[Toothfairy]

Jessa is an uneducated sheltered fundie. I can't take her rants seriously. She has no critical thinking skills or arguments.

[persephonepomegranate]

I would love to explain to them how being pagan, I believe in nature as a higher power and that I too am surrounded by my own god(s), but they wouldn't accept that cause to them I don't exist...oh well :roll:

[sockinshoe]

I'm a philosophy student and these "lofty" (not really lofty) discussions of morality by Bin and Jessablessa drive me nuts. Humans have been arguing about how to be good and where our notions of good come from for as long as we've had speech. I mean that literally too. Going back to the Epic of Gilgamesh and related fragments, there are discussions about man's place in the world and man's duty to the world. So, because I am a dork, I'm gonna talk about some brilliant thinkers (who were almost all religious) who debunk Benessa.

1. Hobbes: Hobbes had the political theory that humans would be better of if we lived under 1 all powerful totalitarian ruler who would give us rules and keep the peace. The reason we enter into such a contract is to preserve what he calls "commodious living" aka our lives and stuff. We create a Leviathan (authoritarian ruler) who makes the law and upholds it, and by murdering etc., we'd descend back into "the war of all against all" which is basically a murdering/stealing free-for-all. In Hobbes, "morality" or "moral law" comes out of necessity.

2. Rousseau: Rousseau developed the idea of a social contract that arises when we form communities. These communities are built on sharing common resources and developing notions of ownership and respect for life based on the community.

3. Kant: Kant's big idea is the categorical imperative, which is essentially the golden rule. You may only do that which you would permit everyone else to do to. Again, respect for life and property comes out of a fear of losing one's own. Additionally, Kant argues that the only truly moral act is one that is undertaken without the expectation or prediction of getting something in return. So being good to get into heaven is immoral. An interesting corollary to Kant is that it essentially makes the atheist the MOST moral, because they have nothing to gain from being good.

4. Nietzsche: Nietzsche completely overturns traditional thought about morality. He argues that the "meek shall inherit" mentality is actually a perversion of the natural course of things. He views Plato as the root of what's wrong with morality, but sees Christianity as the tree that grew from that root. To Nietzsche, Christianity is problematic because it encourages people to submit and "turn the other cheek" instead of becoming stronger and better. He has a lot of fun with this idea and writes bombastically about how foolish his contemporaries are. He also, famously, kills God with nihilism and, having killed God, takes apart all kinds of theism.

And these are only a few examples of the nuanced and exciting discussions thinkers have been having about human morality and our relationship to the divine. I'm kind of revolted at Ben and Jessa's complete ignorance and Dr. Lisle crunching thousands of years of thought into a simile about pizza.

[persephonepomegranate]

The bolded are my always thoughts whenever people bring up the 'atheists have no morals', or 'without religion, society wouldn't have any morals' arguments. It's just ludicrous!

I cannot remember where I read this but I read something about atheists who do charitable work and dedicate their lives to others are those with a true moral compass because they do these acts not because god tells them too or to get a spot in heaven but because they know it is the right thing to do.

(psa this is in no way disregarding the charitable acts those are religious do its just another perspective to think about)

[sense and nonsense]

If all atheists didn't have morals and had no problem with killing people, trust me Ben, you'd be one of the first to go.

[Swamptribe]

I've seen and heard this nonsense before. What they are doing is attempting to disprove a Christian Fundamentalist stereotype of atheists. It really has nothing to do with atheists or atheism, but is simply an evangelical too for making Christians feel superior.

I have actually challenged several Christians using this argument. When confronted with an actual atheist, instead of a stereotype of an atheist, their arguments fall apart. Their 'defense' only works when used with a very controlled, already believing audience.

They are also equating evolution with atheism. They are a lot of theistic evolutionists out there (Catholic church anyone). As a matter of fact, it's safe to say that the majority of people who accept evolution are theists of some type or other.

Ah yes, and over half the video is used to sell books on the subject they are 'disproving'.

PS, wouldn't this particular discussion be better in the more public general forum?

edited for riffless

[Fascinated]

I just re-watched this video and as an amoral atheist I seriously would like to punch them both in their smug little faces. It is beyond objectionable.

[twinmama]

The nicest thing about being an atheist is the complete lack of giving a shit what people think about it. I'm not passionate about it, I don't feel the need to make everyone believe what I believe (or don't believe). In my world, there being no god is the same as there being no santa or tooth fairy. It just is, not complicated or life changing. Water is wet type stuff. I rarely think about it.

[Swamptribe]

I cannot remember where I read this but I read something about atheists who do charitable work and dedicate their lives to others are those with a true moral compass because they do these acts not because god tells them too or to get a spot in heaven but because they know it is the right thing to do.

(psa this is in no way disregarding the charitable acts those are religious do its just another perspective to think about)

Read a quote recently. A man was discussing charity with his Rabbi. The Rabbi informed him that when he did charitable works, he should do they 'as an atheist'. Meaning, that an atheist does not do charity because they feel they are commanded by god to do so. Or because they expect some heavenly reward, but because they feel it is the right thing to do.

Looked, but can't find the page again.

[AlwaysExcited]

Descartes solved this problem long time ago:

Cognito, ergo sum.

This brings to question.

Does Ben exist?

[twinmama]

If all atheists didn't have morals and had no problem with killing people, trust me Ben, you'd be one of the first to go.

Right?? If we were that bad, why would you taunt us so??? :lol: :lol:

[sense and nonsense]

Right?? If we were that bad, why would you taunt us so??? [emoji38] [emoji38]

God will protect him from us mass murdering atheists in exchange for spreading the good word through Facebook and Instagram.

[Fascinated]

The nicest thing about being an atheist is the complete lack of giving a shit what people think about it. I'm not passionate about it, I don't feel the need to make everyone believe what I believe (or don't believe). In my world, there being no god is the same as there being no santa or tooth fairy. It just is, not complicated or life changing. Water is wet type stuff. I rarely think about it.

I agree, for the most part it doesn't affect my daily life. But when I watch something like this video it really gets my blood boiling. How pompous to make such claims. As an atheist I believe that they are completely and utterly deluded. I will never understand why so many people, many of whom are highly intelligent and well educated, believe in god. It's hard to discuss without sounding insulting, though, (and I don't wish to insult anyone here), so I say little about it. But I don't get it. I really just don't get it.

[halcionne]

Descartes solved this problem long time ago:

Cognito, ergo sum.

This brings to question.

Does Ben exist?

I'm happy to see the atheists of Free Jinger out in full force--I was feeling kind of alone. On FJ! :shock:

PS: I went back to my old NDT avatar because of this thread. :cracking-up:

crossposted with Fascinated--I don't want to insult anyone here, either, but if Free Jinger isn't a safe space for atheists, there's something wrong.

[doggie]

I saw a interview about The Institute for Creation Research and how they take only small parts of research=h and science theory to make it look wrong. their whole goal is to disprove science. what i get a kick out of most is if they actually proved the bible was correct they would have destroyed their faith. So it is kind of silly but desperation to validate their faith. it shows how shallow their faith is really.

[sense and nonsense]

If religious people can discuss their faith freely on FJ, so can atheists.

[HermioneSparrow]

Descartes solved this problem long time ago:

Cognito, ergo sum.

This brings to question.

Does Ben exist?

Well, as you can see in that video... He does NOT exist.

[SPHASH]

Why can't science and religion coexist? Maybe God used science to create the world? Time after time religion deemed some poor scientist as a heretic and then ate their words later.

That's what I believe. Science is God's way of explaining how the earth and people were made by Him. So Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Ken Nye are actually explaining God's teachings whether they believe or not.

[eh02]

Science isn't an entity that was created. It's the language and logic that we use to (attempt to) understand the way things work. That's why it makes no sense when people are "anti-science" or even try to debate whether religion and science can coexist. Science is using our observations to try to make connections about the natural world. Religion and spirituality are about the supernatural. Even if you wanted to try to debate them in the same breath, you can't. People should stop trying.

If atheists don't exist just because there are times we all are moved by awe of the world we live in, or life, or whatever, it's just as easy to say religion doesn't truly exist. Because there's not a religious person in the world - not one - who has never had a lingering fear in the back of their head that they are wrong. Does that make them atheists? :roll:

[Handmaiden of Dog]

I remember when my husband and I came out as atheists to his evangelical family. For years we had danced around the topic because we didn't want to hurt his mom and dad but finally one Christmas they pushed us too far and we admitted we are both atheists. I didn't want to go overboard on the explanations because frankly his family members are uneducated, simple people whose lives revolve around their church, so I left it at, "There have been too many different cultures each with different answers to humanity's place in the universe. I don't believe anyone has all the answers." Their immediate response (including the 9 year old nephew) was to chime together "We do!" I felt so sorry for them. They are so uneducated, so ill informed that they don't have a clue as to how ignorant they are. Which is how I feel about Bin and Jessa. I pity them.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Im going to guess that Michelle was an even lazier parent than we thought, she wanted to teach Jana to be a sister mom when she was 3, but she put a hold on it for a few years because Jana dropped Jessa on her head while trying to carry her.

That would explain this theory of Jessa's.

[Fascinated]

Im going to guess that Michelle was an even lazier parent than we thought, she wanted to teach Jana to be a sister mom when she was 3, but she put a hold on it for a few years because Jana dropped Jessa on her head while trying to carry her.

That would explain this theory of Jessa's.

Well that certainly might explain some things but in this case they are obviously correct because it's in the bible!!!!! Was it Romans that the pastor (is he a pastor, I don't know, or care, but it offends me that he's called 'doctor', but I digress) told us holds the key information? God has revealed himself to EVERYONE! And not just any god, but THE god.

I don't know why but out of everything Bin has said so far, this is pissing me off the most. And I even have a glass of white Zinfandel (with ice) and I'm sitting on deck in the sun with my lovely headship (ok, he's refilled my glass once or twice, hence the verbal diarrhea) so I should be a very happy lady. But, I'm pissed off!! :pull-hair:

[doggie]

So I am waiting for them to say the world is flat and the sun revolves around the earth, after all it is in the bible.

[halcionne]

Well that certainly might explain some things but in this case they are obviously correct because it's in the bible!!!!! Was it Romans that the pastor (is he a pastor, I don't know, or care, but it offends me that he's called 'doctor', but I digress) told us holds the key information? God has revealed himself to EVERYONE! And not just any god, but THE god.

I don't know why but out of everything Bin has said so far, this is pissing me off the most. And I even have a glass of white Zinfandel (with ice) and I'm sitting on deck in the sun with my lovely headship (ok, he's refilled my glass once or twice, hence the verbal diarrhea) so I should be a very happy lady. But, I'm pissed off!! :pull-hair:

He's called 'doctor' because he says he has a Ph.D. I would love to vet his credentials, but I don't know how--everything google says about him is pretty much from fundie sources, or fundie naysayers, hehe. Here's his bio from icr.org:

Dr. Jason Lisle

Director of Research

Astronomy, Apologetics, Physics

As Director of Research, Dr. Lisle leads ICR’s gifted team of scientists who continue to investigate and demonstrate the evidence for creation. He graduated summa cum laude from Ohio Wesleyan University where he double-majored in physics and astronomy and minored in mathematics. He earned a master’s degree and a Ph.D. in astrophysics at the University of Colorado. Dr. Lisle specialized in solar astrophysics and has made a number of scientific discoveries regarding the solar photosphere and has contributed to the field of general relativity. After completion of his research at the University of Colorado, Dr. Lisle began working in full-time apologetics ministry, focusing on the defense of Genesis. Dr. Lisle was instrumental in developing the planetarium at the Creation Museum in Kentucky, writing and directing popular planetarium shows including “The Created Cosmos.†Dr. Lisle speaks on topics relating to science and the defense of the Christian faith; he has authored numerous articles and books demonstrating that biblical creation is the only logical possibility for origins. He is also a contributor to Guide to Creation Basics and Creation Basics & Beyond.

[MPC]

This is... I just... I can't.

Further proof that the Duggars constantly dig that hole for themselves...