Scandal Fallout - MEGA MERGE

[DaysAgo]

In the next 3 months, all Gothard followers will rethink their approach to sexuality and how to safe environment for children. Sexual abuse within such families will finally be brought to light and dealt with. The culture of suppression and blame the victim will shift.

It will take years to undo the damage, but now they are all forced to shift their thinking.

[LongDogMom]

Jill strikes me reflect on the attention the situation is getting and maybe take the concern others are expressing for the girls in the family to heart.

I really hope that Derrick convinces Jill to get some real counselling and not just some Pray it Away bullsh*t. I can see Jill brushing off the abuse she suffered as no big deal and say she forgives her brother and needs no counselling, but I think Derrick loves her enough to hopefully help her see that she's probably stifling a lot of her feelings away and that talking to someone professional who specializes in this type of thing would be a positive thing to do for them as a couple as well as her as an individual and as a Mom.

I hope she does try counselling with a professional. Hopefully they will be able to cut through some of the idiotic crap she's been led to believe and help her grow as a person and realize that she has been treated badly. Maybe then she can convince her sisters to go as well, especially Jana.

I would love to see someone outside the family, a professional counsellor without a Christian/Gothard agenda convince these girls they have worth as individuals and that they should pursue their dreams instead of just going along with what their parents want them to do. I'd love to see someone break this worship they seem to have of JB and M as if they can do no wrong.

[sisterwives]

Amidst all this drama, I feel one important aspect of Jill and Derricks future has been overlooked. In the upcoming season trailer, we see the duggars in a family meeting, and Jill and Derrick share some BIG news about their future.

Does anyone wanna have a guess at what their plans are? I suspect they'll be headed to central america to work as missionaries... That was their original plan, after all... I hope they get the hell out of the stoney brook mansion ASAP, and go live a regular christian life somewhere else, away from all the hoopla.

Haven't caught up on this thread but I was thinking that maybe they are moving to a bigger city. Maybe Derick got a promotion that would require them to move? Any guesses?

[singsingsing]

In the next 3 months, all Gothard followers will rethink their approach to sexuality and how to safe environment for children. Sexual abuse within such families will finally be brought to light and dealt with. The culture of suppression and blame the victim will shift.

It will take years to undo the damage, but now they are all forced to shift their thinking.

Wow, I wish! I think most will not let this change anything, and some will just double down on the isolation and distrust of the 'outside' world.

[Luvchild]

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/t ... sives-are/

Has anyone seen this? Ok I haven't seen anyone blaming Obama yet but they are getting close. I don't think as a liberal or progressive I'm someone who is happy this came out just to bring hurt to the Duggars. I'm upset that when JimBob and Michelle found out about this instead of helping their son and daughters by abandoning their horribly restrictive rules and cult environment that really does blame the victim, but no, they keep it up, have more kids, don't get real help, subject their kids to Bill Gothard, don't even think about a proper education for their kids - and why? Why didn't they just stop and get real education and help and protect their kids? I only wanted the best for their cute kids- not this -

[Toothfairy]

People already blamed Obama. They said if he can speak on Black issues then he should speak in support of the Duggars. Stupid RRepublicans

[Dandruff]

Wow, I wish! I think most will not let this change anything, and some will just double down on the isolation and distrust of the 'outside' world.

I think most have spent the last 3 days trying to remember if their daughters were ever alone with Josh. Doubt they'll rethink much else.

[Luvchild]

People already blamed Obama. They said if he can speak on Black issues then he should speak in support of the Duggars. Stupid RRepublicans

I hadn't heard this but I'm so not surprised - geez what is he supposed to say?

[Cleopatra7]

I hadn't heard this but I'm so not surprised - geez what is he supposed to say?

Why would Obama say anything to support the Duggars? They're C-level reality stars. Furthermore, they probably think he's the anti-Christ, so why would he support people who hate his guts?

[LogansMama]

Huckabee wrote that "good people do disgusting things." I'm just so shocked at that statement.

Yup, I tweeted him back (and wrote on his facebook)...No, good people do NOT do disgusting things, that's what makes them good people.

[antwan]

I actually think for Derick and maybe Jill, this will be the point where Derick begins to take steps back to who he really is and his real background. He doesn't come from fundie crazy/Gothardworship/education hating background. His life was very normal. He knows what normal was like. He lived it. Now he sees the signs of crazy. He can't like it and I'm hopeful he sees the lies and damage his wife's parents and her brother caused HER. I hope he sees even now, Jill will need help. It isn't only what Josh did to her, but now what was done to her is public knowledge.

I think this will be the first couple to pull away and I can't believe I'm saying that because Derick had totally drunk the koolaid. But this is a far bigger issue than anything I could have thought that would shock Derick to take a good hard look at how he's thrown away who he is and his whole background for the cult.

I agree. I even think Ben's parents will use this to bring Ben more to fundie middle. Remember when Michelle said, "Just think, this time next year you could be a grandma," to which Ben's mom VERY nervously laughed and said, "Let's just get through the wedding first." I think she felt the Duggar control machine in that comment. I think Jill and Jessa are the lucky ones, -they married before this became an obstacle to the altar. And now their husbands can "lead" (as husbands are supposed to in their world, after all,...oh, the irony)...can lead them right out of cult Christianity toward, at the very least, the Conservative middle.

[Toothfairy]

Why would Obama say anything to support the Duggars? They're C-level reality stars. Furthermore, they probably think he's the anti-Christ, so why would he support people who hate his guts?

Because they're idiots. I think I should stop reading what fox news people think. They said being gay is worse than molestation and isn't that bad and the abuser can repent. Unlike gays because they're living in sin. :angry-banghead: I cant believe some of these idiots got pass a 6th grade education. First even if Obama said something the Republicans would say he's not doing his job. The man can't win at anything. Second I agree they're c list more like f list celebs why would Obama speak. I really can't believe they're blaming Obama. :cray-cray:

[DuggaredOut]

Ok, some predictions from here on out:

19KAC

The show will be put on permanent hiatus if not outright canceled. As much as TLC would love to salvage it, I don't think they can. Sexual molestation is such a sensitive subject, and the ghost of it will haunt 19KAC even if they edit Josh out, which would be hard to do. He, Anna, and their kids are part of this family and will continue to be. Is TLC constantly going to blur their faces out during family parties and such? Remove him from the show's introduction? Bleep out any mention of his name? Awkward! Maybe it would be possible if his victims weren't four of the other stars of this show, but sadly, people will be thinking about what happened for a long time whenever they see the older girls. Besides, JimBoob and J'Chelle are now being subjected to a ton of ridicule themselves, and from here on out, every time they babble about purity in their household or flaunt their sex life in front of their kids, the connotations will creep out viewers, outrage abuse survivors and activist groups, and attract plenty of media derision. So TLC has to jettison these two. Until now, I would've said a spin-off show for the married sisters could work, but their lives aren't that interesting outside the context of their super huge family and the way they function within it. So I think it would be very hard to pull that off without the involvement of the whole Duggar clan, and see above for the problems with that.

Josh & Anna

I think these two had advance warning of what was about to happen, which is why they started reestablishing themselves in AR months ago. When the dust settles, Josh will either go to work for JB or for IBLP, maybe even for Huckabee. I'm not sure I believe that Anna knew about the abuse before she married Josh. IF she did, I think she'll stand by her man unless she thinks he's abusing their own kids (and I could believe she'd even turn a blind eye to that). IF she didn't (or didn't realize the extent of it), I think this will cause quite a strain on their marriage and that she may end up taking the kids and living with family within the next couple of years.

JimBoob, J'Chelle, & J'Kids

I think it's important to remember that even though what Josh did is news to us, it's nothing new to the family. They will continue dealing with it as they've dealt with it all these years--by treating it as a "mistake" that's over and done with. The public revelation and cancellation of their show may stir up tensions within the family, but we will never hear about them, and the only acceptable outlet for them will be prayer, Bible quotation and, at best, more "Christian counseling" at Journey to the Heart or wherever. I believe JB is worth way more than is commonly estimated and that he'll have no problem providing for the family even without the show, although their international trips and such will end. Plus, he and J'Chelle will continue to be embraced by other fundies and will capitalize on the crisis to get speaking engagements and maybe a book deal from a fundie publisher. They will frame the scandal as persecution and will play up how Jesus redeemed their family from this unfortunate situation.

Jill & Derick and Jessa & Ben

I'm of two minds about whether Jill and Jessa would've told their respective spouses about the abuse. Since "purity" is so important in their culture, I can see how they might have felt obliged to let Derick and Ben know they were getting what they considered "damaged goods." But, on the other hand, I can also see them staying mum because it was, in their minds, a shameful secret. Whether Derick and Ben knew all along or are just finding out now, I'd imagine they both secretly despise Josh. How could they not? But IF they knew all this time and still chose to live under JB's thumb, then there's no reason to believe anything will change now. IF this news came as a surprise, then they may distance themselves somewhat, but I really don't think they'll make a permanent break from the Duggars. Jill and Jessa obviously love their siblings very much, so that just wouldn't be an option. But I could easily believe Josh would not be welcome around their children, especially unsupervised. Regarding their future finances, I think Derick will always be equipped to take care of Jill, with or without JB's additional support, albeit maybe not in a 6,000-sq. ft. McMansion. Ben and Jessa seem to want a career in ministry, and I think they'll keep working to make themselves a brand in the Christian world, no matter what happens to the show. I think they'll succeed, too--they have a lot of fans, and frankly, many of them will probably want to show their support and sympathy for Jessa by laying out money for whatever she's selling, whether that's a Q&A session at a megachurch, a book for Christian newlyweds, or even some TV show she's hosting on a Fox affiliate down the road after this all dies down.

Maybe someday, 10 or 15 years down the road, one of the girls who has broken away from Gothardism will go public with her story in the name of helping other abuse survivors. But it won't be anytime soon, and I wouldn't even count on it happening ever.

[ncb]

"My issue with Ben is he's just turned 20. He is a baby himself. A married baby with a baby on the way and no experience in the real world. My hope is he and Jessa will align themselves more with his family, because I do get the feeling he will not think any of this is okay. Whether he is an adult enough to move away from the Duggar fold? I'm not sure. He's very young and has seemed very taken in by the whole thing."

Not sure why anyone things the Seewalds would be any better than the Duggars in excusing Josh. Guinn posted Mike Huckabee's rape culturey support statement on her Facebook page.

[DuggaredOut]

Not sure why anyone things the Seewalds would be any better than the Duggars in excusing Josh. Guinn posted Mike Huckabee's rape culturey support statement on her Facebook page.

This.

Guinn's FB like was very disappointing. I wonder if she's trying to support the Duggars just because she knows they're her son's cash cow. Another possibility is that Jessa has been parroting JB & Michelle, telling her MIL that she forgave Josh for his "mistake" long ago, etc., etc., so Guinn is trying to show her DIL that she's on her side, which, ironically, is actually Josh's side. :roll:

It's so sad, but it never ceases to amaze me how, when push comes to shove, a fundie can do no wrong in another fundie's eyes. They will condone any sin and call it good if it's committed by a fellow fundie. Just when you think they might have some shred of moral decency, they just keep surprising you by sinking to new lows.

[Baudelaire]

Yup, I tweeted him back (and wrote on his facebook)...No, good people do NOT do disgusting things, that's what makes them good people.

Exactly. By definition you're not good if you're doing disgusting things. I hate how people forgive themselves so easily for so many things and insist that they're "good people".

How can anyone say that a person who molested a 5 yr old is a good person who just happened to do something disgusting?

Help me here, my head hurts. :angry-banghead:

[drivingmishcrazy]

I know this will probably never happen, but if any of the girls spoke out, got help, broke away, I think it would be interesting to see them do something like those No More PSAs. Obviously it's not their job to do that, and it's really hypothetical, but if one (or more) did and wanted to, I wonder what would happen?

Hopefully that didn't sound insensitive, I'm honestly just thinking out loud at this point.

(On that note, I almost wish someone could point them to RAINN or the Joyful Heart Foundation or something and then let them choose if they want to use such resources)

[Mama Mia]

This is one of the biggest problems with conservative evangelical Christianity. Everyone is a sinner, and all sins are equal in God's eyes, so the only thing that counts is whether you've been saved. Child molestation is a sin, pre-marital sex is a sin, porn is a sin, masturbation is a sin, lustful thinking is a sin, teenagers making out are sinning, birth control is a sin, drinking alcohol is a sin, dancing is a sin, listening to the wrong kinds of music is a sin, being gay is a sin, voting Democrat is a sin, lying is a sin, stealing is a sin, taking God's name in vain is a sin, murdering someone is a sin, abortion is a sin, not wanting to get married is a sin -

Guess what? When everything is disgusting, nothing is.

Wow, what a crazy bad time to be internet less for a couple days :shock: . This whole thing is mind blowing. So ALL of the rumors were true - and then some-??? Well, as one of the most virulently aggressive posters against throwing around this kind of speculation I guess I need to eat my words and a big slice of humble pie :embarrassed:

Singingsing ( so glad you're back!) -- I think you hit the nail exactly on the head. That is what has stuck out as the most bizzarre part of this whole saga -- they truly seem shocked that people aren't seeing this as similar to Josh being caught watching porn. And if you read that Chick tract, or the ATI (?) " lesson" on preventing child molestation by siblings --- it's just -- shocking how distorted their attitude is.

I watched the video of Josh walking through the airport being asked questions -- and he had the exact same smile he always does -- and it made me really sad for him ( before I'm completely vilified - let me explain ) . The look on his face was so-- confused -- like he had no idea how

He was supposed to respond or react - because he's only been taught one expression. And it made me think of those interviews with the kids where they talk about sin, and not being worthy and all of that. And they - all of them - just have NO sense of proportion, like you said. If something is bad - it's bad. Period. And sex is the worst " bad" there is - but everything outside of married heteroxeual sex is equally bad. Porn, jerking off, sex with your girlfriend, beastiality, rape, being gay, molestation, pedophelia, one- night stands -- all exactly the same.

It is such a warped world view -- to beat and drum into your children - from infancy - that they are horrible sinners thinking horrible evil thoughts -- BUT they should always smile because Jesus loves them -- BUT you'll burn in hell if you do anything bad , and " sex" is bad AND " sex" is some deep , dark secret that involves male parts and female parts ( unless you have the extra evil same sex sex ) . And then you take a pubescent boy who clearly is having real problems - and just tell him ALL of it is equally bad -- and top it off with such rigid gender roles and stereotypes that "girl" and " woman" are the same thing. ------ what a fucked up system!

And one of the worst parts, for all of the kids, in my view --- Is that the Duggar parents, knowing that this was an issue in their family , chose to pursue a celebrity status that was 100% dependent on the children talking about how they were modest and protected and wholesome and never touched and kept " sheltered" from any knowledge of sex - because their family believed all those things are just for a husband and wife. Thereby ensuring those kids always kept in the front of their minds what had happened, and that by their own code they didn't quite measure up - and that their future spouse would find them lacking. Even if they put 100% of the blame on Josh ( which they didn't ) -- they were still making those girls parade an image that would be bound to make them feel dirty -- for the dishonesty if nothing else.

And Jesus forgiving Josh is fine. His parents or even his sisters forgiving him is fine. I would assume at least some of the girls have very mixed emotions about him. It can be an additional huge burden for victims of sexual abuse when they are expected to only feel a certain way - whether they are expected to forgive and act like it never happened, or if they are expected to only have negative feelings towardsthe family member who abused them. No one should be telling these young women how they " should feel" . Not their parents, not the media, not the general public, not a counselor and not their husbands. It's possible they could forgive but still want nothing to do with him. Or not forgive him, but be able to interact at family functions. But it's pretty damn unlikely that all four of his sisters felt comfortable with putting on a big smile and acting like he's their wise and protective big brother for the cameras. Or wanted to act like their biggest sibling problem was a fight over a damn jewelry box

Putting Josh aside --why would anyone forgive Jim Bob and Michelle for making those kids play these roles, that are designed to make them feel like shit, on TV ? Why would anyone forgive them for not protecting the girls? This wasn't a one time experimental groping session with a close- in - age sister ( although that's how the supporters seem to be playing it ) . It isn't that he got caught having sex on a couch with a neighbor . Or he got overstimulated once while wrestling. This was multiple instances with multiple victims. Against their will. And most were very young - pre- pubescent young. And on top of that, it continued after he had been caught. Those are all big red flags that he needed actual help, and education, and monitoring . Not to be beat ( I'm assuming ) at some cult - and then left to his own devices.

Long rambling rant. Anyway. I agree completely singsing - it's the complete lack of a moral hierarchy, combined with a hyper focus on obeying all rules -but especially the most trivial - that is really scary and disturbing about all of this.

[HarryPotterFan]

Some news outlets are reporting that TLC execs are debating weather to cut Smuggar out of the show or to cancel it: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainmen ... -1.2233122

Also what would a spin-off with Jill/Jessa look like? 1 Kid and Counting?

[fabkiwi06]

I know this will probably never happen, but if any of the girls spoke out, got help, broke away, I think it would be interesting to see them do something like those No More PSAs. Obviously it's not their job to do that, and it's really hypothetical, but if one (or more) did and wanted to, I wonder what would happen?

Hopefully that didn't sound insensitive, I'm honestly just thinking out loud at this point.

(On that note, I almost wish someone could point them to RAINN or the Joyful Heart Foundation or something and then let them choose if they want to use such resources)

I know a couple of us included those types of resources in the "letters to duggar girls" thread that is supposed to make it to them.

I would love to see the girls (and boys for that matter) band together and make a series of PSAs about this - if it can happen in our family, it can happen in yours. They could partner with a religious organization or break free and go mainstream. Sadly, I don't see it happening.

[littlesparklingflame]

I agree. I even think Ben's parents will use this to bring Ben more to fundie middle. Remember when Michelle said, "Just think, this time next year you could be a grandma," to which Ben's mom VERY nervously laughed and said, "Let's just get through the wedding first." I think she felt the Duggar control machine in that comment. I think Jill and Jessa are the lucky ones, -they married before this became an obstacle to the altar. And now their husbands can "lead" (as husbands are supposed to in their world, after all,...oh, the irony)...can lead them right out of cult Christianity toward, at the very least, the Conservative middle.

I hope you are right but actually these husbands and far from being solid adults themselves. Derrick is a young, naif guy who went through a lot of hardship in the past few years and has given himself totally to the Duggar circus to find a sense of self-worth. Ben is just a guy over his teen years, unconscious of the world, who had a crush on Jessa and found the way to make it acceptable in his conservative views by marrying her.

And Jill and Jessa are still completely under the control of their parents.

These 4 need to walk a long way before they manage to confront JB and M.

[FundieFarmer]

Because they're idiots. I think I should stop reading what fox news people think. They said being gay is worse than molestation and isn't that bad and the abuser can repent. Unlike gays because they're living in sin. :angry-banghead: I cant believe some of these idiots got pass a 6th grade education. First even if Obama said something the Republicans would say he's not doing his job. The man can't win at anything. Second I agree they're c list more like f list celebs why would Obama speak. I really can't believe they're blaming Obama. :cray-cray:

They should be careful what they wish for. I think support for the Duggars/Josh would be the last thing out of Obama's mouth. He's far more likely to condemn the way it was handled and offer his/the nation's support for the victims before he'd ever offer kind words for JBM/Josh.

[physicalscience]

This.

Guinn's FB like was very disappointing. I wonder if she's trying to support the Duggars just because she knows they're her son's cash cow. Another possibility is that Jessa has been parroting JB & Michelle, telling her MIL that she forgave Josh for his "mistake" long ago, etc., etc., so Guinn is trying to show her DIL that she's on her side, which, ironically, is actually Josh's side. :roll:

It's so sad, but it never ceases to amaze me how, when push comes to shove, a fundie can do no wrong in another fundie's eyes. They will condone any sin and call it good if it's committed by a fellow fundie. Just when you think they might have some shred of moral decency, they just keep surprising you by sinking to new lows.

There are SO MANY commas put out of work by Guinn's writing. Those poor, poor commas. Maybe someday, they'll find their way home and clear up what she's trying to say.

http://seewalds.com/grace-greater-than- ... /#more-341

[Palimpsest]

Wow, I wish! I think most will not let this change anything, and some will just double down on the isolation and distrust of the 'outside' world.

What singsingsing said. Sorry, DaysAgo, you are far too optimistic. This is only the latest in a slew of sexual crimes and scandals. This includes many perpetrated by Gothard himself, some by his followers, but many by followers of other twisted patriarchal "Christian" Fundamentalist beliefs.

Some Gothardites might indeed withdraw, but unfortunately the culture of protecting the perpetrator and blaming the victim is still going strong. The true believers will be battening down the hatches and trying to find better ways of hiding abuse.

[HereticHick]

I have seen more mainstream media references to Bill Gothard, the Quiverfull movement, and the Christian Patriarchy movement in the past 72 hours that I had ever seen in my entire life. Slate even did a nice short piece arguing that the Christian Patriarchy movement in the US has 3 main leaders--Gothard, Vision Forum's Doug Phillips (is a tool) and the Duggar Family, and ALL 3 leaders have been involved in sexual molestation scandals. Yesterday, 3 of the most read 5 articles on the website of the Washington Post (arguably one of the most influential newspapers in the World) were critical pieces about the Duggars. To FJers outside the US, this may not seem like a big deal, but here in the US, a bright shining light has been trained on the Duggars and their world for the first time. Even if this national exposure doesn't last long, it has been a good thing.