Scandal Fallout - MEGA MERGE

[antwan]

Btw, has it crossed anyone's mind that The Willis Family has got to be secretly doing the happy dance? (you know, "We can't outseat the Duggars as fundie's first family of television, but we'll take our 5 minutes of fame and pay and just see how long we can ride it out....Oh, wait. The tide has shifted. Maybe we can outseat them after all.")

[whateverwhoever]

I disagree. I believe TLC can and will totally recover from this. People "forgot" what Woody Allen did (which was equally as bad and much worse, too, IMO) and he continues to have a long and full career of writing and producing films to this day. We are a society and culture that removes shock value, a society that "numbs" ourselves to deviant actions and heinous crimes through overexposure in the media and desensitizing in film and television. What was entertaining to us 30 years ago is absolute doldrum today. We seem to thrive on shock value as a society, and like a drug, the high is short lived and the next "fix" is what we tend to focus on, not "yesterday's news." No, I don't think TLC will have any trouble recovering from this as a network. But I also do not think the show stands even a remote chance of surviving. And given that JB (and perhaps TLC, too) sold us all a Duggar's "bill of goods," I can't say I'm disappointed. It's as it should be, finally, -reality.

Has Woody Allen admitted to it? From what I've read, his apologists are usually insisting that his Mia Farrow was crazy and jealous and made the whole thing up and had her daughter lie about it. Even after the daughter came out as an adult, I still saw a lot of people saying that.

Josh has actually admitted it.

I agree though that people let men get away with sexual crimes, socially, all the time though. People make excuses for them, and it's infuriating.

[honeymilk]

I think it's partially because we all are so invested in fundies that we think they have a lot of supporters. Honestly, it's just people like them and some misguided mainstream Christians. Most people are super disgusted by Josh Duggar. Even though there are a lot of child abuse apologists, there are many more who are absolutely disgusted by it. Also, it's blowing their whole messed up philosophy open. All of their defenders are undoing all the good publicity they used to have. Their basic argument is that everyone sins and everyone makes mistakes and that you need God to right you. Even most Christians don't think that people don't sexually abuse children just because they're afraid of god; They think people don't sexually abuse their siblings because they aren't pedophiles or sociopaths. By explaining their crazy ideas about sex and society (and the role of women in both), the Duggar defender fundies are just bringing more and more sane people over to our side. If they kept producing the show, there is no way that everyone won't be thinking about the abuse every.single.time they mention anything about their way of life, or how they're different than others'. A huge portion of the show is about sex, or rather, not having sex. There's no way to present that in a way that's not completely gross. As a matter of fact, I think even a lot of people who are saying they want the show back wouldn't be able to watch it.

[The Duggar's Mohel]

If this show isn't cancelled, and the Evangelic movement doesn't become less of a political force, it signifies the end of humanity as we know it.

[Helena]

What an idiot. It's almost like these people are putting a big neon sign on their heads that says, "The only reason I behave well is that I'm afraid of God. Otherwise I'd be out bonking my sisters and doing all kinds of crazy sh*t."

Well, Hovind is a criminal, so there's that.

[The Duggar's Mohel]

Btw, has it crossed anyone's mind that The Willis Family has got to be secretly doing the happy dance? (you know, "We can't outseat the Duggars as fundie's first family of television, but we'll take our 5 minutes of fame and pay and just see how long we can ride it out....Oh, wait. The tide has shifted. Maybe we can outseat them after all.")

They creep me out too. Maybe a little less than the Duggars, but there's something unsettling about them.

[apple1]

Well, Hovind is a criminal, so there's that.

Kent Hovind is the one who is in jail for tax evasion and various other charges. Not Eric.

[Helena]

My mistake. Sorry! Well, Eric Hovind is an idiot, so there's that. :)

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_Hovind

[lascuba]

Has Woody Allen admitted to it? From what I've read, his apologists are usually insisting that his Mia Farrow was crazy and jealous and made the whole thing up and had her daughter lie about it. Even after the daughter came out as an adult, I still saw a lot of people saying that.

Josh has actually admitted it.

I agree though that people let men get away with sexual crimes, socially, all the time though. People make excuses for them, and it's infuriating.

Yes, that's exactly how it happened. Woody Allen has denied everything, and Mia Farrow was labeled as the crazy ex who damaged her young daughter into believing that she was abused by her father. People everywhere really love giving men a pass and blaming women for their behavior, not just fundies.

[Branigan]

A huge portion of the show is about sex, or rather, not having sex.

New poster here. I've read several blogs about the dangers of sexual abuse in fundamentalist families who have such excessive focus on remaining sexually "pure" and untainted. They've mostly centered on Josh having no means of dealing with the normal sexual thoughts and feelings of puberty, and thus the fondling of his sisters was opportunistic, not necessarily indicative of pedophilia, or predictive of future behavior. My problem with such explanations is the very young age of his victims. Even a boy not raised in such a strict environment might try to catch a glimpse of a teenaged sister getting out of the shower, just for the sake of viewing a live naked girl. But no normal 14-15-year-old boy would regard a 5-year-old or a 10-year-old as an object of sexual arousal. In reading some of the past posts in this forum, before this scandal was made public, it is clear that Josh is the most widely disliked of all the Duggar children. Described as smug and self-important. More than one post I read when I randomly clicked on discussions called him "creepy." What I have to wonder is if Josh deliberately fondled as many of his sisters and other girls he had access to FOR THE PURPOSE of violating their purity and (in his mind and likely the minds of his parents) "tainting" them. Stealing their purity for himself and making sure his parents knew he'd done it. That would make me fear for his own children.

[Apricot]

New poster here. I've read several blogs about the dangers of sexual abuse in fundamentalist families who have such excessive focus on remaining sexually "pure" and untainted. They've mostly centered on Josh having no means of dealing with the normal sexual thoughts and feelings of puberty, and thus the fondling of his sisters was opportunistic, not necessarily indicative of pedophilia, or predictive of future behavior. My problem with such explanations is the very young age of his victims. Even a boy not raised in such a strict environment might try to catch a glimpse of a teenaged sister getting out of the shower, just for the sake of viewing a live naked girl. But no normal 14-15-year-old boy would regard a 5-year-old or a 10-year-old as an object of sexual arousal. In reading some of the past posts in this forum, before this scandal was made public, it is clear that Josh is the most widely disliked of all the Duggar children. Described as smug and self-important. More than one post I read when I randomly clicked on discussions called him "creepy." What I have to wonder is if Josh deliberately fondled as many of his sisters and other girls he had access to FOR THE PURPOSE of violating their purity and (in his mind and likely the minds of his parents) "tainting" them. Stealing their purity for himself and making sure his parents knew he'd done it. That would make me fear for his own children.

That thought makes me feel physically sick but it's not entirely beyond the realms of possibility

[anon710]

They creep me out too. Maybe a little less than the Duggars, but there's something unsettling about them.

I said in some other thread that this sets the stage (to turn a phrase) for the Willis Clan.

I watched the first two episodes and fast forwarded over most of their music, and I am a fan of bluegrass, I adore the sound of a mandolin.

Any way my conclusion was it was like a fundie Glee. I also watched the first two episodes of glee and there was too much singing in it. So, a fundie glee is still a fundie glee.. they are much more talented and attractive than the Duggars and the Bates.

[KaitR]

You could be onto something, but it would likely take years of therapy before even Josh came to this realization. Wish they all could GET years of therapy but I don't see that happening. My hope is that all of this fallout will make at least some of the kids question the way they've been raised and consider other lifestyle choices.

I also think the patriarchal belief system doesn't help. We have a close family friend who went to a local Christian school that is also very patriarchal, and she was similarly molested by a boy there (not rape but forced touching) and, although most in the school knew about it, most also excused it. She left and has been ostracized by former so-called friends. She says, too, that such molestation in that environment is not isolated to her own experiences or even that one boy.

[The Duggar's Mohel]

I said in some other thread that this sets the stage (to turn a phrase) for the Willis Clan.

I watched the first two episodes and fast forwarded over most of their music, and I am a fan of bluegrass, I adore the sound of a mandolin.

Any way my conclusion was it was like a fundie Glee. I also watched the first two episodes of glee and there was too much singing in it. So, a fundie glee is still a fundie glee.. they are much more talented and attractive than the Duggars and the Bates.

I'm not sure I'd say "much more", but boy are they much more arrogant than the Duggars, and to me, that is quite a hard trick.

Anyway, they strike me as a family that's sole purpose in life was to get on TV in an attempt to become famous, I just can't get past any of these families exploiting their own children's childhood for fame and money.

[FundieFarmer]

That thought makes me feel physically sick but it's not entirely beyond the realms of possibility

Personally, I think that's quite a bit of a stretch.

[SassyPants]

I'm not sure I'd say "much more", but boy are they much more arrogant than the Duggars, and to me, that is quite a hard trick.

Anyway, they strike me as a family that's sole purpose in life was to get on TV in an attempt to become famous, I just can't get past any of these families exploiting their own children's childhood for fame and money.

It should be illegal without strict protections in place, particularly monetary and educational. It certainly never seems to end well.

[MamaJunebug]

Katie (The Good One) Botkin has a brilliant response, no surprise.

Kbotkin.com

[scarygirl]

I haven't posted in a while and I hope despite any differences I will be allowed to say my piece.

Long and short there has been much talk of the Duggar brand somehow being tarnished, that the parents had no to sell themselves as the perfect family, particularly in light of this revelation.

Honestly, how so? The parents and Josh are sleazy to be sure, but the rest of the kids and the victims, not so much. I look at those kids and I still see virtue; I still them living for God.

It hurts my heart that the kids and victims are being lumped in this way and that because of this they have no right to continue.

Those girls despite what happened to them are still examples of Godly womanhood. They are the more than the summation of their vaginas. What happened to them was beyond their control. What was taken from them was without their consent. I am of the opinion that taken withou consent can never be taken at all. They aren't damAged; they are still perfect in the eyes of Christ. That goes double for all assault victims in every walk of life.

T for trigger:

I was raped when I was ten years old. Science will tell you that was the day I lost my virginity. While technically true that wasn't the day I lost my real virginity. The real loss occurred at age 30 , the day it was freely given. Not locked up, shoved on a bathroom floor, but in a warm bed with someone I cared about.

( I freely admit the above at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite. According to the bible sex before marriage is wrong. The first instance doesn't count as it was done against me. The second instance was my fresh choice to do some th ing I knew was wrong.)

Same goes for Josh s victims. As far as I am concerned they were virtuous til the day they married.

As to Josh and Jim Bob and Michelle,they will eventually pay for what they did. Josh should have served some kind of jail time, but he didn't..And because of this I don't see the good in this being released to the media. I think whoever released this report was despicable I hope to God it wasn't for some personal beef. It wasn't our right to know. This was for the victims to disclose, if at all.

[theotherelise]

Katie (The Good One) Botkin has a brilliant response, no surprise.

Kbotkin.com

Fantastic stuff. I loved this section:

[tab=30]Theonomists emphasize that women need to take any and all precautions, given these laws, to make sure they’re never raped. I think taking precautions to avoid being raped is a good idea, which is why, given the track record and beliefs of Theonomists and their ilk, I avoid hanging out one-on-one with them (or comatose with them) at all costs. Because, you know, merely by being an unmarried non-virgin female, I’m clearly asking for it, and everyone sins occasionally.

[rosaline]

Fantastic stuff. I loved this section:

[tab=30]Theonomists emphasize that women need to take any and all precautions, given these laws, to make sure they’re never raped. I think taking precautions to avoid being raped is a good idea, which is why, given the track record and beliefs of Theonomists and their ilk, I avoid hanging out one-on-one with them (or comatose with them) at all costs. Because, you know, merely by being an unmarried non-virgin female, I’m clearly asking for it, and everyone sins occasionally.

Did not realize she had a second post up; thanks for sharing!

That last paragraph is a thing of beauty.

[javafriend]

After reading at Recovering Grace, I know that part of Gothard's Journey to the Heart involves each girl having a private meeting with the old goat to "share their heart." It really creeps me out thinking about Gothard (who surely already knew the story well) getting those girls to retell their molestation experiences for his own titillation. And, of course, encouraging them to repent for their role in enticing their brother to molest them and shaming them for their lack of forgiveness. So very twisted.

[anon710]

I've been tryin to actually talk to someone at discovery but all of their numbers are down

I did manage to talk to someone at figure 8 and I thought my clout as press would get me a statement. Nope. She spent two minutes buffering my questions and said that TLC was handling all press communication.

Funny all 4 numbers I had were down.

No wonder there has been no statement from them they shut off all phone numbers except the employee ethics reporting hotline.

I've got a bunch of other junk to do today like work, but I'm going to keep trying.

If I could get a statement this could be a bust out article for the small publication I freelance for.

[EmmieJ]

I said in some other thread that this sets the stage (to turn a phrase) for the Willis Clan.

I watched the first two episodes and fast forwarded over most of their music, and I am a fan of bluegrass, I adore the sound of a mandolin.

Any way my conclusion was it was like a fundie Glee. I also watched the first two episodes of glee and there was too much singing in it. So, a fundie glee is still a fundie glee.. they are much more talented and attractive than the Duggars and the Bates.

I think the Willis children are more musically talented than the Duggar and Bates' offspring. The Willis daughters are also quite pretty, and the boys fairly attractive. (Although, their father was nice-looking as a young man, but he has not matured well. His wife on the other hand, IMO, has gotten better looking (and blonder) with age.) I found their music boring and repetitive, and I don't think they have truly strong voices. However, I could see the appeal to a conservative audience who wants "good Christian music." It's clear that mom and dad are hoping this show will lead to huge widespread success. I don't see that happening.

I don't like it when the children are the main source of income for the family. What does the dad do? Does he have a job? I think the mom is the manager of the family musical act, but when it comes down to it -- the kids are the ones working the hardest.

Did anyone else notice the oldest son, "Jair," talking about how stressful life can be, and so he works out in order to relieve some of that stress? Why is he so stressed out? Are the other kids also stressed out? It doesn't sound healthy to me. I've got a 17-year old son, and he does get stressed with school work, balancing that with his sports and his social life, so I know a certain level of stress is normal and unavoidable.

All I know is that I'm tired of large fundie families getting television shows.

[weezie]

I think JimBob and Michelle are to gone. . . it their whole identity and they are obsessed with their identity. They are brainwashed.

I think you are right. Furthermore, if they even try to break from fundamentalism, who on earth would believe them? They have demonstrated that they are fairly self serving. I think it would look as if it were a calculated move to flee a sinking ship. Like titanic. But Jim Bob would push Michelle off of the wreckage so that he could be rescued.

[HereticHick]

JOSH is still listed as a speaker at the Alive Christian Music Festival later this month, as of today: http://www.alive.org/speakers/

(along with Anna, and the other 2 youg Duggar couples)

If any of you feel like doing something proactive--and don't feel that it is appropriate for Josh to have paid speaking gigs at this time--consider contacting Alive: alivefest@alive.org or through https://twitter.com/alivefestival or their Facebook page.