Scandal Fallout - MEGA MERGE

[MamaJunebug]

Middle of the night and can't sleep... so I check TMZ. They're putting money on the show getting cancelled now.

http://www.tmz.com/2015/05/28/19-kids-a ... on-duggar/

please oh please oh please!!

Jim Bum will find another gravy train to ride. Small-town hustlers like him always do. And doubtless he's got investments that will keep all 19 and up to 50 grandchildren well fed and provided for.

Send this conman back to obscurity and free the kids!

[Becket70]

I don't know if it is a myth or not but I have heard that when entities like a politician or a network want to deliver bad news, they do it on a Friday. If that holds true, maybe tomorrow we will hear something from TLC. There has been no apparent let-up in Josh/Duggar stories in the media and the longer this goes on the more the media will dig into the Duggar belief system. I have no idea which way they will go but clearly they need to do something soon. The reality show I want to see is how JB will cope if they cancel the show.

[nomoxian]

But because he was so young when it happened, and received so, so, so many fucked up messages regarding sexuality and responsibility from his parents and cultural group - it's impossible for any of us to know if he's a pedophile or an opportunist.

I'm not going to give him an easy pass based on his upbringing. Somehow - despite growing up in a household where sex wasn't spoken about except to say "don't do it" and where masturbation and gay sex and any sort of sex outside of marriage (which is only between a man and a woman) is immoral and "not what we believe in" - I was able to experiment with people my age and several years older. Not people I was related to and certainly not children.

Granted, growing up in a house like the Duggars may push someone over the edge who might be genetically predisposed to it, in which case there might be more than one predator in that house :/

[Buzzard]

It would depend on the wording of that state's mandatory reporting statute.

However, as a parent she is obligated to protect her kids from known dangers. Some parents have their kids taken away for failing to protect them.

12-18-402. Mandated reporters.

(a) An individual listed as a mandated reporter under subsection (b) of this section shall immediately notify the Child Abuse Hotline if he or she:

(1) Has reasonable cause to suspect that a child has:

(A) Been subjected to child maltreatment; or

(B) Died as a result of child maltreatment; or

(2) Observes a child being subjected to conditions or circumstances that would reasonably result in child maltreatment.

(b) The following individuals are mandated reporters under this chapter:

(1) A child care worker or foster care worker;

(2) A coroner;

(3) A day care center worker;

(4) A dentist;

(5) A dental hygienist;

(6) A domestic abuse advocate;

(7) A domestic violence shelter employee;

(8) A domestic violence shelter volunteer;

(9) An employee of the Department of Human Services;

(10) An employee working under contract for the Division of Youth Services of the Department of Human Services;

(11) A foster parent;

(12) A judge;

(13) A law enforcement official;

(14) A licensed nurse;

(15) Medical personnel who may be engaged in the admission, examination, care, or treatment of persons;

(16) A mental health professional;

(17) An osteopath;

(18) A peace officer;

(19) A physician;

(20) A prosecuting attorney;

(21) A resident intern;

(22) A school counselor;

(23) A school official;

(24) A social worker;

(25) A surgeon;

(26) A teacher;

(27) A court-appointed special advocate program staff member or volunteer;

(28) A juvenile intake or probation officer;

(29) A clergy member, which includes a minister, priest, rabbi, accredited Christian Science practitioner, or other similar functionary of a religious organization, or an individual reasonably believed to be so by the person consulting him or her, except to the extent the clergy member:

(A) Has acquired knowledge of suspected child maltreatment through communications required to be kept confidential pursuant to the religious discipline of the relevant denomination or faith; or

(B) Received the knowledge of the suspected child maltreatment from the alleged offender in the context of a statement of admission;

(30) An employee of a child advocacy center or a child safety center;

(31) An attorney ad litem in the course of his or her duties as an attorney ad litem;

(32) (A) A sexual abuse advocate or sexual abuse volunteer who works with a victim of sexual abuse as an employee of a community-based victim service or mental health agency such as Safe Places, United Family Services, or Centers for Youth and Families.

(B) A sexual abuse advocate or sexual abuse volunteer includes a paid or volunteer sexual abuse advocate who is based with a local law enforcement agency;

(33) A rape crisis advocate or rape crisis volunteer;

(34) (A) A child abuse advocate or child abuse volunteer who works with a child victim of abuse or maltreatment as an employee of a community-based victim service or a mental health agency such as Safe Places, United Family Services, or Centers for Youth and Families.

(B) A child abuse advocate or child abuse volunteer includes a paid or volunteer sexual abuse advocate who is based with a local law enforcement agency;

(35) A victim/witness coordinator; or

(36) A victim assistance professional or victim assistance volunteer.

© (1) A privilege or contract shall not prevent a person from reporting child maltreatment when he or she is a mandated reporter and required to report under this section.

(2) A school, Head Start program, or day care facility shall not prohibit an employee or a volunteer from directly reporting child maltreatment to the Child Abuse Hotline.

(3) A school, Head Start program, or day care facility shall not require an employee or a volunteer to obtain permission or notify any person, including an employee or a supervisor, before reporting child maltreatment to the Child Abuse Hotline.

Disclaimer: These codes may not be the most recent version. Arkansas may have more current or accurate information. We make no warranties or guarantees about the accuracy, completeness, or adequacy of the information contained on this site or the information linked to on the state site. Please check official sources.

I guess the question is - did the "elder" have to keep it confidential? Was he acting as a minister?

[shedemei]

Hm, I didn't phrase that well. What can a person who has already reported the molestation do afterward? So, the folks at Harpo reported it, it was investigated, case was closed. Are they then permitted to talk about it?

Or let's say I'm another random person. I have suspicions, but find that it's already been investigated. Will I legally get in trouble by talking about it?

I guess what I'm getting at is what can someone with knowledge of the events (such as Harpo or perhaps crew on TLC) legally do after reporting?

[SassyPants]

Hobby Lobby won't touch this with a 20 foot pole. With all the fallout they're still dealing with, the last thing they need is an association with child molestation.

And ConAgra....that's a HUGE company, lots of brands under them too.

The Greens (owners of HL) were in business dealings (real estate) with ATI and are members of the group, aren't they? I'd say they are already associated with it.

Didn't they sell the building where Josh was counseled to Gothard?

[Mama Mia]

I'm not going to give him an easy pass based on his upbringing. Somehow - despite growing up in a household where sex wasn't spoken about except to say "don't do it" and where masturbation and gay sex and any sort of sex outside of marriage (which is only between a man and a woman) is immoral and "not what we believe in" - I was able to experiment with people my age and several years older. Not people I was related to and certainly not children.

Granted, growing up in a house like the Duggars may push someone over the edge who might be genetically predisposed to it, in which case there might be more than one predator in that house :/

I'm not giving him a pass. I'm saying that the word pedophile has a specific meaning, and by definition, Josh, at 14, didn't qualify as a pedophile. It was certainly sexually predatory behavior. And an especially huge red flag is that it continued after he was caught. But by the DSMIV - a pedophile has to be at least 16. I know it seems like a technical quibble - but it's an important distinction , particularly in a culture that seems to lump ALL females - no matter their level of sexual maturity or age - into one box called " forbidden - sexy girl parts " . And treats ALL unmarried people - male, female, 5, 15 or 25 - as if they are exactly the same developmentally - so that somehow a 2 year old is aware enough to be sinful if they throw a tantrum - but an unmarried 20 year old isn't responsible enough to go to Walmart alone.

They don't seem to share the same distinctions regarding age and maturity and appropriate behavior that most people do. There are variations in what's considered acceptable age appropriate behavior in the wider world, of course. for example - 14 year old Mary's peer group might find dating boys 3 or 4 years older perfectly acceptable - her cousin Sara's peer group might find anything more than a 2 year difference creepy -- but both agree that it's perfectly normal for teens to be interested in each other. Or one neighborhood mom might find small kids running around naked perfectly fine, while another thinks they should wear at least swimsuits -- but neither thinks that little kids are going to be " defrauding" normal adults. These fundamentalists just don't seem to be giving their kids any notion that development - sexual , intellectual and emotional - is an on- going, evolving process. From just looking at those tracts and the way they treat them and that Gothard sexual abuse lesson plan :oops: :ew:

It seems like they wouldn't get the messages most societies teach - formally and informally - regarding age appropriateness. And for a pubescent boy, with some clear sexual boundary and impulse issues - I can see how that would translate into " any girl I can fondle" without necessarily being drawn particularly to pre- pubescent children - which is what a pedophile is.

[apandaaries]

So many people failed these kids. Was it "elder" or "elders"? In what capacity was he/were they acting? And what were they told? JB's pedo-cop claims JB downplayed the events, so he thought he was using some kind of discretion (which he did not have) to sternly talk to Josh instead of reporting him.

I wonder if there's any chance of a miracle -- that JB realizes that HE is to blame for this, that if he'd been better about getting his son the help he needed and requested, this would not have blown up as it has.

[Buzzard]

Hm, I didn't phrase that well. What can a person who has already reported the molestation do afterward? So, the folks at Harpo reported it, it was investigated, case was closed. Are they then permitted to talk about it?

Or let's say I'm another random person. I have suspicions, but find that it's already been investigated. Will I legally get in trouble by talking about it?

I guess what I'm getting at is what can someone with knowledge of the events (such as Harpo or perhaps crew on TLC) legally do after reporting?

There is no law that prohibits a civilian from speaking truthfully about something they have knowledge of with the exception of a court order prohibiting the conduct addressed to that person.

[luv2laugh]

I can imagine a ton of tension among the Duggar children for years to come over this scandal. Not only will the children be mad at JB & Michelle for thrusting their family into the spotlight covering up such a dark secret, but they'll also be mad at Josh for molesting their sisters. Derrick and Ben may be showing support now but I can see them within a year or two realizing how much damage Josh inflicted and become very angry. I bet Ben will fume with anger if the Josh scandal causes him and Jessa to financially suffer if the entire show and/or "spin off" gets cancelled and he'll forever have Josh to blame for them not being able to enjoy their pregnancy in the limelight and have their fanbase grow. In addition, if Josiah loses Marjorie over this he'd have a right to be angry because I can't imagine Marjorie's parents wanting to have her bear the burden of the "Duggar" last name for a lifetime now. The other children will have the Duggar name unfortunately haunt them for the rest of their lives now when it wasn't even their fault--- it was JB & Michelle's and Josh's. Imagine all of the tension.

[FundieFarmer]

I wonder how much the younger children:

1. knew already

2. know now

3. will know in the future.

I ask because, like Luv2Laugh said...if Josiah lost Marjorie bc of this, he'd have a reason to be mad. But what if he didn't know? What if this is how he found out? Or, what if he already knew and was already going to tell her?

What a mess. Every Duggar kid going forward is going to have their SO either know already, or be told- if not by them, then by someone else. That's tough. Way to go, Josh.

[SassyPants]

I wonder how much the younger children:

1. knew already

2. know now

3. will know in the future.

I ask because, like Luv2Laugh said...if Josiah lost Marjorie bc of this, he'd have a reason to be mad. But what if he didn't know? What if this is how he found out? Or, what if he already knew and was already going to tell her?

What a mess. Every Duggar kid going forward is going to have their SO either know already, or be told- if not by them, then by someone else. That's tough. Way to go, Josh.[/quote]

AND JB and M.

[FundieFarmer]

Curiosity killing the cat over here, not necessarily speculating, but...

I think it stands to reason that not all of these kids will be super close as they grow older, get married, move out, etc. We're seeing that some with the Bates. I wonder if that dynamic will play out in who winds up knowing about Josh down the line. Like if one of the younger kids has children, he/she may not feel inclined to tell them until it's necessary, if they never see Josh. I'd be willing to bet their grandkids sure won't know...except for Josh's grandkids.

I can't help but wonder how far down the line it goes before it becomes a thing of the past- or if the media will ever let that happen.

[nokidsmom]

I wonder how much the younger children:

1. knew already

2. know now

3. will know in the future.

I ask because, like Luv2Laugh said...if Josiah lost Marjorie bc of this, he'd have a reason to be mad. But what if he didn't know? What if this is how he found out? Or, what if he already knew and was already going to tell her?

What a mess. Every Duggar kid going forward is going to have their SO either know already, or be told- if not by them, then by someone else. That's tough. Way to go, Josh.

To the bolded...this. Any future SO will know about it. It's public information now, there's no going back.

Another unfortunate price of fame. If JB had never pimped out his family on nationwide TV and just kept himself and his brood to NWA, this would be a private family matter. Much more control over disclosure, when to disclose and to whom.

[Sundaymorning]

Curiosity killing the cat over here, not necessarily speculating, but...

I think it stands to reason that not all of these kids will be super close as they grow older, get married, move out, etc. We're seeing that some with the Bates. I wonder if that dynamic will play out in who winds up knowing about Josh down the line. Like if one of the younger kids has children, he/she may not feel inclined to tell them until it's necessary, if they never see Josh. I'd be willing to bet their grandkids sure won't know...except for Josh's grandkids.

I can't help but wonder how far down the line it goes before it becomes a thing of the past- or if the media will ever let that happen.

I'm pretty sure all the Duggar offspring will know about it sooner or later. The internet is forever, and Duggar is not such a common name. However, I don't think it will be a problem for the grandkids (except Josh's maybe), many people have distant relatives who have committed crimes, it's not that unusual to have a black sheep in the extended family circle.

[apandaaries]

I'm pretty sure all the Duggar offspring will know about it sooner or later. The internet is forever, and Duggar is not such a common name. However, I don't think it will be a problem for the grandkids (except Josh's maybe), many people have distant relatives who have committed crimes, it's not that unusual to have a black sheep in the extended family circle.

As FJ reminds us, the Internet is forever. ALL the Duggarlings will end up knowing at some point or another.

But I also agree that the family won't stay as close as they have. Most big families wind up with cliques of compatible kids/adults, from what I've seen and experienced. Sometimes some family members fight and lose touch; sometimes others just never got along as well; sometimes people move too far away. Part of what's enabled their closeness thus far has been fame, its accompanying wealth, and secrecy. Now they have infamy to bind them together, but I don't think that will hold as well in the long run.

[OkToBeTakei]

I'm not giving him a pass. I'm saying that the word pedophile has a specific meaning, and by definition, Josh, at 14, didn't qualify as a pedophile. It was certainly sexually predatory behavior. And an especially huge red flag is that it continued after he was caught. But by the DSMIV - a pedophile has to be at least 16. I know it seems like a technical quibble - but it's an important distinction , particularly in a culture that seems to lump ALL females - no matter their level of sexual maturity or age - into one box called " forbidden - sexy girl parts " . And treats ALL unmarried people - male, female, 5, 15 or 25 - as if they are exactly the same developmentally - so that somehow a 2 year old is aware enough to be sinful if they throw a tantrum - but an unmarried 20 year old isn't responsible enough to go to Walmart alone.

They don't seem to share the same distinctions regarding age and maturity and appropriate behavior that most people do. There are variations in what's considered acceptable age appropriate behavior in the wider world, of course. for example - 14 year old Mary's peer group might find dating boys 3 or 4 years older perfectly acceptable - her cousin Sara's peer group might find anything more than a 2 year difference creepy -- but both agree that it's perfectly normal for teens to be interested in each other. Or one neighborhood mom might find small kids running around naked perfectly fine, while another thinks they should wear at least swimsuits -- but neither thinks that little kids are going to be " defrauding" normal adults. These fundamentalists just don't seem to be giving their kids any notion that development - sexual , intellectual and emotional - is an on- going, evolving process. From just looking at those tracts and the way they treat them and that Gothard sexual abuse lesson plan :oops: :ew:

It seems like they wouldn't get the messages most societies teach - formally and informally - regarding age appropriateness. And for a pubescent boy, with some clear sexual boundary and impulse issues - I can see how that would translate into " any girl I can fondle" without necessarily being drawn particularly to pre- pubescent children - which is what a pedophile is.

In a way I wish the focus was less on the salacious aspects of the abuse and more on the environment that fostered it.

I do wonder if in a different family a 12 year old boy had been sat down and told quite plainly. You are getting to an age where you are going to feel urges, it's perfectly normal to feel this way and then a chat about how to deal with said urges (including as my SO told me his Dad told him, 'Son...your willy will not know the difference between a pretty girl and the vibrations of the back of the bus on the way to school...all normal.) That wet dreams and masturbation are all normal. That at 14 this would not happen.

I wonder if events would be different. We will probably never know. That's the issue for me.

Is he a sexual deviant or a victim of his upbringing, both? It's a perfect storm.

Damage is done.

[Arete]

He is both a victim of his upbringing AND has demonstrated predatory behavior. I have a hard time believing it is just the environment, or else all boys in these environments would demonstrate this behavior. There is brain wiring that came together with the environment that caused this behavior to manifest.

While no one knows for sure, I seriously doubt he is a pedophile. He took what was available to him in his environment. That to me is predatory, not pedophilic.

[eh02]

He is both a victim of his upbringing AND has demonstrated predatory behavior. I have a hard time believing it is just the environment, or else all boys in these environments would demonstrate this behavior. There is brain wiring that came together with the environment that caused this behavior to manifest.

While no one knows for sure, I seriously doubt he is a pedophile. He took what was available to him in his environment. That to me is predatory, not pedophilic.

I can get behind thinking 14 year old Josh was a victim. But 27? year old Josh has no excuse. He's shown no real remorse, has made no acknowledgment of how he hurt the victims...his apology was about HIS sins and how HIS life was affected. Not the trauma of others. He STILL has not learned. Jesus forgiving Josh doesn't make a traumatic experience in five girls' lives disappear.

Whether he's a pedophile or not, well, there's no way we could know unless any other accusations popped up. But the guy very may well be a sociopath. It is very obvious that while the crimes may have only lasted one year, the girls' family continued to invalidate their experience for 10+ YEARS after. Child victims should not be forced to just keep their mouth shut and move on. They DESERVED treatment and counseling by a trained professional. Josh deserved professional treatment, too. Something that could have made him process what he did, understand how he hurt others, and to learn that this is NOT about how HE feels about what he did.

[OkToBeTakei]

He is both a victim of his upbringing AND has demonstrated predatory behavior. I have a hard time believing it is just the environment, or else all boys in these environments would demonstrate this behavior. There is brain wiring that came together with the environment that caused this behavior to manifest.

While no one knows for sure, I seriously doubt he is a pedophile. He took what was available to him in his environment. That to me is predatory, not pedophilic.

What is frightening is that other boys in that 'environment' unlike the Duggars do not have a light like TV to put them under that spotlight. So we have no way of knowing and the girls have no voice.

I agree he was predatory, in another environment it may have been different. Maybe not a better outcome. Possibly a better outcome. We will never know. Maybe I just like to think in a more 'normal' environment' with better parents his behaviour would have been recognised and addressed.

He was the only one watching the show who I genuinely disliked. He was arrogant, self assured and pompous. Entitled. Not exactly the vibe you get from a young person who has been through a life changing event as described and learned from it....if you get my drift.

[Free Them All]

I bet the family dynamics are real interesting now. I hope Josh goes back into the used car salesman job. I hope Derick and Jill and Israel move closer to his family. I hope Ben grows up fast and gets a real job of his own. I hope the Bate's show's ratings take a nose dive. I hope Gothard's cult rules go down in flames. I hope Big Sandy ATI camp and home school curriculum bites the dust. I hope every Duggar kid over the age of 18 moves out and up. I hope Johanna can get an education and be a doctor someday. I hope Ginger can live in New York.

And, IF Josh, Michelle and Jim Bob see Jesus, they've got some explaining to do!

[MadMadameMim]

I bet the family dynamics are real interesting now. I hope Josh goes back into the used car salesman job. I hope Derick and Jill and Israel move closer to his family. I hope Ben grows up fast and gets a real job of his own. I hope the Bate's show's ratings take a nose dive. I hope Gothard's cult rules go down in flames. I hope Big Sandy ATI camp and home school curriculum bites the dust. I hope every Duggar kid over the age of 18 moves out and up. I hope Johanna can get an education and be a doctor someday. I hope Ginger can live in New York.

And, IF Josh, Michelle and Jim Bob see Jesus, they've got some explaining to do!

Those are some big dreams!

If only it were so! I don't understand why people tolerate so much from Gothard and ATI. It isn't as if they themselves would want to live that lifestyle, why would they think it was so hunky-dory?

[Sundaymorning]

I can get behind thinking 14 year old Josh was a victim. But 27? year old Josh has no excuse. He's shown no real remorse, has made no acknowledgment of how he hurt the victims...his apology was about HIS sins and how HIS life was affected. Not the trauma of others. He STILL has not learned. Jesus forgiving Josh doesn't make a traumatic experience in five girls' lives disappear.

Whether he's a pedophile or not, well, there's no way we could know unless any other accusations popped up. But the guy very may well be a sociopath. It is very obvious that while the crimes may have only lasted one year, the girls' family continued to invalidate their experience for 10+ YEARS after. Child victims should not be forced to just keep their mouth shut and move on. They DESERVED treatment and counseling by a trained professional. Josh deserved professional treatment, too. Something that could have made him process what he did, understand how he hurt others, and to learn that this is NOT about how HE feels about what he did.

I agree that Josh as an adult has not demonstrated that he really changed. Which is really not surprising, if you look at the way Boob & J'Chelle have handled the issue. If they would have provided everyone involved real therapy, things might have turned out very differently. And Josh, if he really does have a personality disorder or anything like that, could have been treated accordingly by a psychiatrist.

Don't get me wrong, I don't feel sorry for the adult Josh at all. He would have had the opportunities to get help for himself, or at least to humble himself and sincerely acknowledge the damage he has done as a teenager.

[Shadoewolf]

Sassy they did and do have the connections but they took so much backlash over the whole healthcare/birth control issue that I highly doubt they'd make any noise on this. They don't need any more bad PR. I could be wrong...

[SassyPants]

Sassy they did and do have the connections but they took so much backlash over the whole healthcare/birth control issue that I highly doubt they'd make any noise on this. They don't need any more bad PR. I could be wrong...

Oh you can best believe that I have been highlighting their connection to Gothard, ATI, and the Duggars.

Yes, indeedie.

Their personal religious beliefs are so key and important- EVERYONE needs to know just what those beliefs support and where their money goes...beyond China for all that cheap shit they sell in their stores.