Josh Duggar Admits Molestation of 5 Juveniles - Part 5

[Clementine]

Josh was 13/14 years old and fondled his sisters while asleep, that doesn't make him a pedophile. It needed to be addressed properly, absolutely!

I haven't called him a pedophile, but he clearly has no "normal limits" that most people do and nothing I have read about this mess has convinced me that he has gotten help to deal with it. He talks about how his behaviour could ruin his life, but not about the kids he abused or how it affected them. Red flag that he really doesn't understand what he has done to them.

[latraviata]

I haven't called him a pedophile, but he clearly has no "normal limits" that most people do and nothing I have read about this mess has convinced me that he has gotten help to deal with it. He talks about how his behaviour could ruin his life, but not about the kids he abused or how it affected them. Red flag that he really doesn't understand what he has done to them.

Fair enough. How could/can he have normal limits, brought up in this insane purity cult?

[happy atheist]

!

{TEXT1}:

Josh molested his younger sisters, and he has admitted to it. That's really bad enough. We don't need to keep inventing more terrible shit that he might have done. Yes, it is likely that he committed other crimes, but random people on the internet being "sure" that he must have done something is not going to prompt an official investigation. If you poke around in the backwaters of the internet and uncover other old posts akin to concernedmom's and Alice's, then by all means tell us about them. Tell reporters and investigative journalists about them. If you worked for Oprah and have access to inside info and/or footage, share away. If you work in the Arkansas legal system and know where the bodies are buried, dig them up and show them to us. Buzzard and Polabear and the others who are uncovering old lawsuits = the right way to approach this. Speculating that Josh probably also molested the cat and the mailman, and is the proud owner of his very own glory hole down at the truck stop = the wrong way to approach this. Stop rumormongering and behave like responsible adults. Even though this is the internet. If you spot egregious speculation, report it and we'll remove it.

[SassyPants]

Fair enough. How could/can he have normal limits, brought up in this insane purity cult?

I agree, it all circles right back to his parents. None of us has any idea what was going on in that 3 BR home, where a girl slept on the couch, as their parents created more kids, even when they could barely feed the ones already born.

[Clementine]

Fair enough. How could/can he have normal limits, brought up in this insane purity cult?

True, but on the other hand not all fundie boys abuse their little sisters so even while I agree that his upbringing has messed him up, there must be something "more" to Josh, a personality trait or an experience that differs him from the others.

[Mia]

1) Sorry for any grammar mistakes, I am not native.

2) I never posted on here before, let alone visited the forum alot or watched each and every episode of 19KAC, but I'v heard the rumors about an alleged molestation before and after I heard that he admited to it today, I went on the forum to read the police report. While this is obviously quite shocking, I wasn't that surprised. I'm far away from being a specialist on that topic, but maybe if Josh was allowed to go to a normal school, socialize with people his age in a way that is fit for teenagers (and that includes at least making some sexual experiences to some point) or being allowed to discover his own body and not be shamed about stuff like that from an early age on, maybe that could have been prevented? Neither am I an expert, nor am I a judge, so I refuse to even speculate if he is really a child molester and continues doing so or feels that way, or if this was "just" a reaction to how he was raised and brought up.

3)While I'v already stated that I am not a Duggar-Expert nor do I have alot of knowledge about their surroundings and beliefs, I still have heard about Gothard and stuff like "blanket training", but what shocked me when i read the police report is that one of the duggar kids said they use a rod to spank the kids (and leave no bruises, aww how nice of them...). Why isn't this being further investigated? Since I am not from the US idk exactly what the laws are when it comes to this, but over here, spanking your kids is forbidden - not saying that it doesnt happen behind closed doors - but a rod?

[apandaaries]

1) Sorry for any grammar mistakes, I am not native.

2) I never posted on here before, let alone visited the forum alot or watched each and every episode of 19KAC, but I'v heard the rumors about an alleged molestation before and after I heard that he admited to it today, I went on the forum to read the police report. While this is obviously quite shocking, I wasn't that surprised. I'm far away from being a specialist on that topic, but maybe if Josh was allowed to go to a normal school, socialize with people his age in a way that is fit for teenagers (and that includes at least making some sexual experiences to some point) or being allowed to discover his own body and not be shamed about stuff like that from an early age on, maybe that could have been prevented? Neither am I an expert, nor am I a judge, so I refuse to even speculate if he is really a child molester and continues doing so or feels that way, or if this was "just" a reaction to how he was raised and brought up.

3)While I'v already stated that I am not a Duggar-Expert nor do I have alot of knowledge about their surroundings and beliefs, I still have heard about Gothard and stuff like "blanket training", but what shocked me when i read the police report is that one of the duggar kids said they use a rod to spank the kids (and leave no bruises, aww how nice of them...). Why isn't this being further investigated? Since I am not from the US idk exactly what the laws are when it comes to this, but over here, spanking your kids is forbidden - not saying that it doesnt happen behind closed doors - but a rod?

We in the States have terrible views about spanking. Many people view it as their right and responsibility as a parent. It's stupid and horrible, but it happens frequently. I've heard numerous parents quote "spare the rod, spoil the child," and then use some implement to spank their kid. They tell themselves it's better that way, since hands are part of the parent and a parent should be loving. The rod/wooden spoon/whatever is seen as a "disciplinary tool." It is beyond messed up, but the general guidelines are that if it doesn't leave bruises, it's okay. Note how the kid who reported it said there were no bruises. I think the kids were very well coached before their interviews.

[latraviata]

True, but on the other hand not all fundie boys abuse their little sisters so even while I agree that his upbringing has messed him up, there must be something "more" to Josh, a personality trait or an experience that differs him from the others.

Everybody is different and responds differently to their upbringing. Sibling incest and incest in every shape or form, unfortunately are not uncommon in strict patriarchical religious circles. There are so many skeletons in the various fundie closets, trust me.

[somanybooks]

Re: use of a rod for spanking. I remember reading somewhere--Recovering Grace, maybe?-- that the Pearls recommended using a dowel rod for spanking. I think they even specified what diameter of dowel to use. They are also the source for the practice of blanket training. Duggars used to promote the Pearls' books on their website but no longer do so.

[Nowyn]

No one is saying that we don't want Josh to be investigated or made certain that he won't be able to reoffend. What is being said is that we only have some general statistics. What we know is that while there are good chance perpetrator reoffending it's not (by current statistic) more likely than not. What we know is what was in the police report. That's not enough information to say Josh has done anything else. If you don't feel sympathy towards Josh, feel it towards his kids and siblings. They don't deserve us thinking they have been abused be it true or not. All survivors deserve privacy. It's often hard enough to deal with it with all the privacy in the world but not having a say in who knows is most likely traumatic on its own. And before anyone nails me to the wall because I'm talking about how victims feel I'll come to that later. Making him be the world's worst person, who has abused countless children, won't help anyone. That won't make him abusing someone less likely. I would also say that it doesn't matter how many more victims there are. It doesn't change anything. He needs to be evaluated by psychologist/psychiatrist who specializes in sexual abusers. That won't most likely happen unless there is new criminal investigation brought by new evidence or claims. But us speculating him having other victims won't do that. Like someone said Alice had some inside knowledge and we should have believed her. She didn't speculate and guestimate or even make educated guesses. She knew. And even that didn't make any difference. How can anything we say do more?

I think we should be able to discuss what the victims are thinking and feeling. But only as long as we understand that it's only talk and not knowledge. I'm a survivor and as a one I do, however, think I have better understanding of sexual abuse. I would but it mostly to the fact that it has made me research subject and talk with other survivors. There are reasons why support groups work and one is that people who have been trough similar things get each others perspectives. Talking about what sexual abuse does to survivors is one step to minimize the stigma and blame.

And, by the way, I think every person who writes about their own experiences here deserve to be treated kindly. I would even if I wasn't one of those people. It's a hard thing to do and to throw it back at their face is making talking about the abuse harder.

[MidknytOwl]

The Duggar girls are not rape survivers! They have been inappropriately fondled by their 13/14 year old brother.

Mamallama wasn't calling them rape survivors, but talking about her time at a rape crisis center and how one should refer to sexually assaulted people as survivors, not victims.

I think we can all agree that the girls were sexually assaulted, yes?

IMO, this was more how calling people victim can be damaging and how we should use other terminology. (In my EMT training we were also taught not to refer to the people we were treating as victims, but rather patients, eg "the patient has been stabbed in the abdomen." Victim has negative connotations.)

[imokit]

The rawstory article someone just posted is brilliant,

rawstory.com/2015/05/heres-how-the-duggars-patriarchal-homeschool-world-teaches-kids-to-shame-sex-abuse-victims/

Goes beyond the sexual abuse aspects of Gothard and links it to Blanket training and the Pearls. We need more article's like this places where the masses will see it.

It point out how the culture would have affected the abuse, and responses to abuse, from the parents and from the girls themselves.

[contessa perdono]

Mamallama wasn't calling them rape survivors, but talking about her time at a rape crisis center and how one should refer to sexually assaulted people as survivors, not victims.

I think we can all agree that the girls were sexually assaulted, yes?

IMO, this was more how calling people victim can be damaging and how we should use other terminology. (In my EMT training we were also taught not to refer to the people we were treating as victims, but rather patients, eg "the patient has been stabbed in the abdomen." Victim has negative connotations.)

There's actually a lot of debate on the victim vs. survivor terminology within the interpersonal violence field.

[Mia]

We in the States have terrible views about spanking. Many people view it as their right and responsibility as a parent. It's stupid and horrible, but it happens frequently. I've heard numerous parents quote "spare the rod, spoil the child," and then use some implement to spank their kid. They tell themselves it's better that way, since hands are part of the parent and a parent should be loving. The rod/wooden spoon/whatever is seen as a "disciplinary tool." It is beyond messed up, but the general guidelines are that if it doesn't leave bruises, it's okay. Note how the kid who reported it said there were no bruises. I think the kids were very well coached before their interviews.

Thank you for clearing that up a bit. What I don't get tho is, if a police officer is being told by the victim him/herself they recieve spankings with a rod, there is no obligation to investigate into that further?

[ljohnson2006]

http://www.people.com/article/michael-s ... r-reaction

Jessa's crazy FIL supports Smuggar. Screw anyone who backs child molesters.

[justbecause]

He claims to take the word of God literally and live as a man of God, but likes to ignore those inconvenient bits of Christianity that teach justice, mercy, kindness, humility, and focusing on your own sins before condemning the sins of others.

To paraphrase one of Disney's best movies, Jim Bob Duggar longed to purge the world of vice and sin. And he saw corruption everywhere, except within.

But isn't that how that is for most people who remove themselves from the rest of the world and only have those that agree with them around them?

I believe that is the biggest reason they remove themselves from the secular world. That no other beliefs, opinions or knowledge are around to conflict with what JB & M say. I do not believe that it is as much for religious reasons as it is about control.

What would these girls do if they could survive without JB & M? Had a college education? Had another support system?

How could JB & M raised "19K&C" without making sister mothers of the older children? They did what was in their best interest to do since they wanted a Patriarchy lifestyle.

[justbecause]

Sorry I didn't finish that thought about isolation.

The same is for pop stars and other people who choose who they want around them as managers, aids/personal assitants. If you choose or take them away from the real world, there is no one to disagree with them

[luxfilia]

3)While I'v already stated that I am not a Duggar-Expert nor do I have alot of knowledge about their surroundings and beliefs, I still have heard about Gothard and stuff like "blanket training", but what shocked me when i read the police report is that one of the duggar kids said they use a rod to spank the kids (and leave no bruises, aww how nice of them...). Why isn't this being further investigated? Since I am not from the US idk exactly what the laws are when it comes to this, but over here, spanking your kids is forbidden - not saying that it doesnt happen behind closed doors - but a rod?

I grew up in the southern United States, and spanking your children is not even something that happens behind closed doors. It's openly discussed and utilized by Christians and non-Christians alike. Lots of kids I know either grew up being spanked with a wooden hairbrush, a "switch" from a bush outside, or, in my case, being whipped with a belt.

While whipping is lessening in popularity even here in the south, many people are still relatively okay with it. They just don't do it in public places as often for fear of someone reporting them for abuse. But I do recall seeing kids kid spanked (usually with just a hand to the bottom) in grocery stores, parking lots, and the like. It's hard for someone who wasn't raised this way to understand, but the same people who spank DO still look down upon actual "beating," hitting the face or leaving marks beyond what would fade in a matter of a few hours.

I'm not in any way justifying spanking/whipping. I'm just trying to make it clear that it's widely accepted and not at all just a fundie thing.

[Honeysuckle]

There's actually a lot of debate on the victim vs. survivor terminology within the interpersonal violence field.

My use of the term victim was a deliberate choice. So often, in cases of sibling sexual abuse, people try to play it off as a game of doctor that got out of hand, or curiosity. We have seen that in responses to this story elsewhere on the internet. I used the term victim to underscore the fact that this was not a consensual event of exploration. This was young girls being assaulted while they slept.

[JenniferJuniper]

Josh was 13/14 years old and fondled his sisters while asleep, that doesn't make him a pedophile.

Josh was born in early 1988 so he was 14 and 15 in 2002 and 2003.

We don't know for sure whether he still is sexually attracted to young girls, but pedophilia is a disorder that starts early in life. Most pedophiles in the US assault their first victim by age 15. Many begin with younger siblings.

So Josh fits the demographic. While we cannot say he is a pedophile today, we certainly cannot say he is not. My concern is that because he never had proper treatment, the odds are much higher that he is still aroused by little girls.

*Edited to add that the littlest victims were awake. One was picked up and put on a washing machine and another was having a book read to her.

[contessa perdono]

I want to add something here that I posted in another thread, but it keeps coming up. Someone who offends against children isn't necessarily a pedophile. Children are often offended against because they are the easiest to access, not because the offender prefers them. And with regards to recidivism, are lot of factors that play into someone's risk (pedophile or non-pedophile offender).

[jarona]

http://www.people.com/article/michael-seewald-josh-duggar-reaction

Jessa's crazy FIL supports Smuggar. Screw anyone who backs child molesters.

I saw that and was in a state of "WTF"? Bin's dad, I'm going to assume, is another Jim Bob-esque personality. I would not be surprised if he helped to "push" Bin along to start a courtship. Why? I'm also going to assume that Daddy-of-Bin wanted to see his uneducated son achieve some sort of fame. That being said, with the demise (I'm hoping) of the Duggar's on TLC, Bin's dad is freaking out. Bin can only bash Catholics or scrub toilets for Jim Bob. The gravy train is over. Unless Bin and Jessa re-invent themselves as young preachers. Who knows? I'm still in a state of shock that the Duggars have supporters. I cannot process this. At all.

[Cheetah]

I am bringing this up because, even though there have been numerous posts on these threads talking about the victims "forgiving" -- I haven't seen what I am about to say.

The word "forgive" means different things to different people. The following is how I - and some others define it.

It can be appropriate for a victim to choose to forgive a perpetrator who is not worthy of being forgiven --- but in the sense of the victim choosing to do whatever work is necessary to move beyond the victimization and into a better place for her/himself. This is not necessarily dependent on the perpetrator's actions. The other caveat is that forgiveness does NOT equal restoration of relationships/situations/potential for interaction. Many perpetrators should NEVER have that kind of restoration.

One thing that keeps coming to me is that forgiveness is often looked at as a one-time thing, but I think honestly it's more of a process. Maybe, for instance, someone who was victimized at 10 forgave her molester at the time after some reflection and a good apology. But then she gets married (or starts dating, if she's not from this fundamentalist community), and the feelings come flooding back of the original molestation. And then she goes through pregnancy and becomes a mother, perhaps to a daughter, and once again it's like it just happened. I don't know, I just think, okay, maybe all the Duggar girls did forgive Josh back in 2003 or 2006, but now they are marrying and having babies.

[latraviata]

Josh was born in early 1988 so he was 14 and 15 in 2002 and 2003.

We don't know for sure whether he still is sexually attracted to young girls, but pedophilia is a disorder that starts early in life. Most pedophiles in the US assault their first victim by age 15. Many begin with younger siblings.

So Josh fits the demographic. While we cannot say he is a pedophile today, we certainly cannot say he is not. My concern is that because he never had proper treatment, the odds are much higher that he is still aroused by little girls.

*Edited to add that the littlest victims were awake. One was picked up and put on a washing machine and another was having a book read to her.

Exactly we don't know that, at all.

I really don't know what your source of information is, mine isn't the same. But hey I am not American and don't live in god's greatest country on earth.

[Cheetah]

I saw that and was in a state of "WTF"? Bin's dad, I'm going to assume, is another Jim Bob-esque personality. I would not be surprised if he helped to "push" Bin along to start a courtship. Why? I'm also going to assume that Daddy-of-Bin wanted to see his uneducated son achieve some sort of fame. That being said, with the demise (I'm hoping) of the Duggar's on TLC, Bin's dad is freaking out. Bin can only bash Catholics or scrub toilets for Jim Bob. The gravy train is over. Unless Bin and Jessa re-invent themselves as young preachers. Who knows? I'm still in a state of shock that the Duggars have supporters. I cannot process this. At all.

I'm guessing that (becoming young preachers) has been the plan, and they were counting on the Duggar tv show and fame to jump-start that career.