Josh Duggar Admits Molestation of 5 Juveniles - Part 5

[sense and nonsense]

Well, seeing as how this all started out as internet rumors and gossip, I think it's very important that all reports of abuse be taken seriously and investigated. This kind of abuse happens in every socioeconomic and religious class. It has to stop. How Josh is is diagnosed is really beside the point.

That was not speculation. The user Alice had the facts. It was just that she wasn't believed.

People deciding that certain actions are indicative of further abuse, simply saying that they think Josh is a clinical paedophile, they think he abused his brothers is just speculation.

The pace at which this thread is moving, with the number of new members we have, such baseless speculation can actually be dangerously misunderstood.

And lastly, but most importantly, speculation on an internet message board will not lead to investigation of any kind by the authorities.

[weezie]

117. That makes me physically ill.

Edited to add.

Sorry if this has been mentioned. But if they were so open about the incident like they claim they were with the Kellers. How has this not come out sooner by someone who left and had a grudge or whatever?

I just thought of something else. He was sent to ALERT camp, right? I know that he confessed to harming females, but what are the typical ages of those attending ALERT?

[RosyDaisy]

That was not speculation. The user Alice had the facts. It was just that she wasn't believed.

People deciding that certain actions are indicative of further abuse, simply saying that they think Josh is a clinical paedophile, they think he abused his brothers is just speculation.

The pace at which this thread is moving, with the number of new members we have, such baseless speculation can actually be dangerously misunderstood.

And lastly, but most importantly, speculation on an internet message board will not lead to investigation of any kind by the authorities.

Alice's claims were dismissed as speculation all these years. Let that set in for a minute. This isn't a noble cause. It's about protecting children and seeking justice for them. It's called doing the right thing.

If anybody reading here is a victium of abuse or has knowledge of abuse, or suspects abouse, please report it to you local law enforcement. Don't let them get away it.

[16strong]

That was not speculation. The user Alice had the facts. It was just that she wasn't believed.

People deciding that certain actions are indicative of further abuse, simply saying that they think Josh is a clinical paedophile, they think he abused his brothers is just speculation.

The pace at which this thread is moving, with the number of new members we have, such baseless speculation can actually be dangerously misunderstood.

And lastly, but most importantly, speculation on an internet message board will not lead to investigation of any kind by the authorities.

Lord knows it hasn't with the Rodrigues family. :roll:

They are still in that RV with the 11 almost 12 kids. I doubt they have proper restraints/carseats for most of them. Jury is still out on how often they get fed.

[andagoat]

I read here all the time, but rarely post. This is beyond horrible. All we really know is what is in the police report and what the statements say. In this media frenzy, these girls (now women) are having to relive it and the entire world knows. They are being victimized all over again. But it explains so many things, the biggest is Jana and John David being in no rush to leave the house. I believe that's protection instinct. Making sure nothing happens to younger siblings. Not that any of the others would do it. I'm sure the two of them have talked about it. Jill and Jana are so close, but Jana and JD are twins and have such a special bond.

Before I go any further, we had a violation, not a molestation, done to my daughter by her cousin. I was resolved how my daughter wanted it done. If she wanted him in prison, he would be. If she wanted him dead, he would be. He set up his cell phone in the bathroom and videotaped her in the shower when she was 14. We did what she wanted and she is fine.

Remember how isolated they were when the show started? How emotionally and socially stunted they were when the show started? The show really has opened the kids to the world, giving them more social skills and given them experiences most people will never have. I really don't believe Josh is a pedophile. I think he knew better, I think he was so wrong, I think this is so sad. I think if he were in less of an isolated situation, he would have been at a school where he would have met girls his own age and be able to explore his own body and know how to have a relationship with a girl his own age. How does one deal with this when your child does this to your other children? The girls seem to really love JB. JB seems to really cherish and love each one of his children. I'm leaving Michelle out of this because I think she's nuts. But JB, despite the WAY he raises his family annoys me and I think is wrong, really loves his family.

HOWEVER

Damn the Kellers for encouraging Anna to marry Josh after knowing what happened only a year or so after.

Damn Michelle for drilling into her sexual assaulted daughters' heads that they need to cover their bodies to not tempt men.

Damn Josh for bragging about saving his first kiss for marriage when all this went on.

[AussieKrissy]

u

How does speculating about identities of anonymous victims, randomly mentioning male victims when there is no indication in the evidence, making a clinical diagnosis on Josh on an internet message board help an official investigation at all?

Don't attach a noble cause to what you're doing. You are turning this into gossip.

I can see both points

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I typed in Michelle name on the circuit clerk website and on August 20th of last year, they have set up a revocable living trust. I have no idea what that is but is that money that can be given out when they die but have the right to take away? Is this perhaps for Jessa since she gotten engaged at the time. Perhaps they set out some property for them? Also if this isn't the right area for this, please move.

Someone talked about it in another thread, basically it's a trust that allows you to pass things on to your heirs without estate taxes. And the revocable part means that you can sell properties our of it if you want.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

And to top it all off she can sat in front of TV cameras talking about mowing the lawn in her bikini with her victimized daughters in the room and said how women have to be responsible for the feelings and desires they stir up in men. WTF? Now that this is all out in the open it is like she said that her daughter's are to blame for what happened to them.

Because that's what they believe. And what they taught their daughters to believe.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

If reporters are the media try to dig up more dirt, how can Huckabee or JB political friends really help him with the law? The judge that huckabee appointed got ride of additional evidence. Isn't that obstruction?

It would be obstruction, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen.

[alba]

I stumbled upon this on a site called Little Green Footballs where the author was describing the Quiverfull movement. I have no clue how i got there. Lol. I have never heard of the blog before. This was in the comments section. The FB page that was referenced, I believe, was TLC's. Somebody posted this perfect response to apologists:

That Facebook page linked above is full of comments from people who support Josh Duggar.

A Facebook user named Katie Robinson dropped this comment off in that thread, I quote it in full here.

Dear Josh Duggar Supporters,

I know you all believe that he simply made a “mistakeâ€. Had it only happened once, and maybe not with his sisters who were normally sleeping at the time of assault, I could possibly see how it could be construed as a bad decision; still not a mistake though. However, he molested FIVE different victims (that we know of), the majority of them his own sisters. There is absolutely NO way this was a mistake, or just a poor decision. This was Josh Duggar making an active and conscious decision to keep repeating this behavior.

In closing, allow me to provide you with some statistics that might make you feel like child molestation is a more serious situation.

Statistics show that child molesters seldom experience rehabilitative success.The behavior is highly repetitive, to the point of compulsion, rather than resulting from a lack of judgment.

Like rape, child molestation is one of the most underreported crimes: only 1-10% are ever disclosed.

Recidivism rates range from 18-45%.

The more violent the crime the more likelihood of repeating.

89% of child sexual assault cases involve persons known to the child, such as a caretaker or family acquaintance.

29% of child sexual abuse offenders are relatives.

The typical offender is male, begins molesting by age 15, engages in a variety of deviant behavior, and molests an average of 117 youngsters, most of whom do not report the offense.

Though officially, not considered abuse, the highest incidence of incest occurs among siblings.

Are you confident enough about his innocence to allow your children to stay in his home? No? Then stop defending him, and seeking justification for his disgusting actions.

Sources:

americanspcc.org

nsopw.gov

I haven't had a chance to post before because of the lightning speed of these threads, but I wanted to address the bolded here. A lot of leghumpers are saying he was young, but he was only a little under fourteen, the typical age by which child molesters begin harming children. This alone is not evidence that he is a paedophile or has continued molesting, nor does it absolve his parents of blame; however, I think this statistic shows he was not 'too young' to be a child molester. Being a child himself at the time does not mean he was/is not a child molester when he touched a girl ten years younger than him.

[nelliebelle1197]

How does speculating about identities of anonymous victims, randomly mentioning male victims when there is no indication in the evidence, making a clinical diagnosis on Josh on an internet message board help an official investigation at all?

Don't attach a noble cause to what you're doing. You are turning this into gossip.

It is not even gossip. It is just making stuff up. Nothing happening here in these threads - ie, completely making stuff up - is going to spur an investigation or foster a change. Concernedmom and Alice actually knew all the details. There was a foundation there, but we have no idea whether or a not the InTouch reporter saw those posts or just filed an FOIA for Joshua Duggar.

Regardless, Happy Atheist, who is the administrator of this board along with our captain, Curious, posted a very clear warning about baseless speculation and how this is not the place for it. I love how that is met with a "Yeah, but..."

[nelliebelle1197]

It would be obstruction, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen.

What additional evidence? If you are talking about destroying the police report, the judge in question was following a statute that allows minor victims to request destruction of such records. That is following simple statutory requirements and without compelling evidence that the record should stay public, then her hands were tied. In addition, if I recall from the order, the judge noted on record that the file did not actually qualify for release under FOIA.

Just FYI about judgeships: two friends of mine were recently appointed to the bench, one by a Republican governor, the other to a federal court. That does not mean 10 years after these appointments, either will be risking her career to hide evidence for someone with no control over her position. A Bush appointee in California is the judge who shot down Prop 8, for example. Going through a judicial qualification committee, getting selected and having it signed off by a sitting governor does not mean you've even met the governor. My friend appointed to the federal bench has never met the president. My friend appointed by the governor has never met him. He just signed off on the recommendation of our JQC. She is actually a Democrat.

[sense and nonsense]

It is not even gossip. It is just making stuff up. Nothing happening here in these threads - ie, completely making stuff up - is going to spur an investigation or foster a change.

This.

An investigation isn't as easy as walking up to the nearest police officer and asking them to look into something that concerns you. Baseless speculation on FJ isn't going to make a difference. The mods have made it clear that they will not have this turned into a rumour mongering gossip site.

Also, those of you who missed it, the police report mentions a Family In Need Of Services affidavit filed.

The required agencies have investigated to whatever extent JB and Michelle allowed and cooperated. Another investigation now might be irrelevant, as JB and Michelle will likely not change their stance on cooperating with CPS (or whatever body handles this in Arkansas).

[ariel9]

The letter with molestation statistics was scary. Another thing in this thread if I read right was that JB and Michelle were appealing to have their name taken off the secret list of child abusers? Finally regarding Jingers birth if i remember correctly the special said she was born in the coat room of the old home which didn't seem planned but who knows if it is really the truth at this point.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

What additional evidence? If you are talking about destroying the police report, the judge in question was following a statute that allows minor victims to request destruction of such records. That is following simple statutory requirements and without compelling evidence that the record should stay public, then her hands were tied. In addition, if I recall from the order, the judge noted on record that the file did not actually qualify for release under FOIA.

Just FYI about judgeships: two friends of mine were recently appointed to the bench, one by a Republican governor, the other to a federal court. That does not mean 10 years after these appointments, either will be risking her career to hide evidence for someone with no control over her position. A Bush appointee in California is the judge who shot down Prop 8, for example. Going through a judicial qualification committee, getting selected and having it signed off by a sitting governor does not mean you've even met the governor. My friend appointed to the federal bench has never met the president. My friend appointed by the governor has never met him. He just signed off on the recommendation of our JQC. She is actually a Democrat.

Look I'm not saying it would. But I'm also not saying it wouldn't. It wouldn't be the first time in history that a judge helped along political allies. Obstruction of justice happens at all levels from witnesses to judges. It's not implausible.

[NoJulius]

One of the long time lurkers here.

I have been trying to get caught up with the threads for the last three days. But they are moving so fast that it seems impossible. So, sorry in advance if some topics have been discussed before.

I have said this many times and I will say this again:

Speculating on which girls were/weren't molested has no point. In my mind, the reason for this is that it likely ALL of them were. He first started molesting them while they were sleeping. Why would he just not touch one of them? Why all of them, except one? Unless he somehow respected them in a way unlike the others? But still, it started while they were sleeping. It's not even a matter of opportunity with that one. Also strange, why would he avoid one of the older ones? He seemed to wanted to touch breasts. Obviously the older girls would have had something resembling breasts, more than an eight year-old. So why avoid one of the older ones? Unless it was pedophilia or about the dominant aspect? It's also possible that because a lot of the abuse happened while they were sleeping, that one of the daughters was unaware that she was ever molested at all. Or perhaps, one of the elder girls, who was old enough to understand the shame and the disturbing nature of what had happened, simply lied. The fact that that conversation includes a lot of other information leads to me believe that the daughter cleverly avoided the subject by talking about cooking and her GED. Very clever. I do that too when I don't want to talk about something.

The bold one is something I have been wondering about, too.

Considering Jana was the only non-victim, at that time 12 years old. Usually 12 year old girls are more mature, both physically and mentally than a male 14 year old. The fact that he only molested the girls, who were younger (i.e. in their mental development) than him, makes me think that his actions were rather motivated by some power or domination issues than simply by (surpressed) curiosity.

Another thing, that kept me wondering is the letter, attached in the book. That is something you only see in bad movies, don't you? Why was it hidden instead of given directly away or destroyed?

An Alice? Who (the f***) is Alice? She seems to have known all the story, unfortunately wasn't believed. Well, who is she?

I think I've read about her some time ago. But simple took her for gossip.

Something I wanted dearly to say is: I like freejinger for beeing the only place in the internet where people talke about the Duggars in a REASONABLE way. Other comments seem either totally rude or just like "God forgave him, so should we do" (what makes me :pull-hair: :pull-hair: :pull-hair: )!

Those poor girls, all five of them. I cannot imagine how much the burden on their shoulder must weigh.

Finally, a little Duggar-whisdom:

The man that I am when no one is watching is the man I really am.

Yep...

(Sorry for any grammatical mistakes. English is not my maternal language...)

[nelliebelle1197]

Look I'm not saying it would. But I'm also not saying it wouldn't. It wouldn't be the first time in history that a judge helped along political allies. Obstruction of justice happens at all levels from witnesses to judges. It's not implausible.

But in this case it is not likely at all. Arkansas statute allows the victim to remove a police report. There was no compelling reason for a judge to deny. It's really just a simple request based on a clear statute and with the victim's notoriety, the expiration of the SOL and the real possibility that a non redacted version could leak it is in the best interest of the minor victim to destroy the report. In addition, the judge could have destroyed the police notes, etc., but it looks like only the police report was destroyed, not the supporting documentation. Given those factors, it actually is implausible.

[nastyhobbitses]

I think the thing that freaks me out/angers me about all this is that for years, I've held out this little hope that all the little whispers of allegations and rumors weren't true and that, while weird and holding rather bigoted opinions about social issues, the Duggars were a loving and happy family. Now all the things we speculated about or even joked about are true and that little hope I had is gone.

Also, I just can't understand why someone can look at these police reports and write off Josh's behavior as a "mistake" or try to defend him. I do think that it's good to have empathy for him and feel bad that his parents saw this obvious psychological problem he had and did nothing to help him and teach him better, or feel bad that he grew up in an environment that feared teaching children healthy attitudes about sexuality and their bodies. But I don't think it's OK to treat this like some boyhood mistake or phase. Deciding to go TP your neighbor's lawn is a boyhood mistake. Trying to convince people that Linkin Park is the best band ever is a boyhood phase. And as someone who grew up with a lot of cousins and a sister, exploring bodies or talking to each other about sex when you're young children is normal, but even then, parents should step in and explain that it's OK to be curious about your body or the opposite sex's body, but touching someone's private areas or trying to make someone do anything they don't want to do is absolutely not OK, and sex is a special thing that you can only share with certain people (and you are WELL past that phase when you're 14, I might add). Sexually assaulting four of your own sisters, one of whom is FOUR YEARS OLD, when you're fourteen, is a crime and indicative of a deep psychological issue that needs proper attention. Attention he never got. And after he got some token re-education camp that likely just told him "you did a bad thing but as long as you just say that you like Jesus, you're good to go", he was sent back to live with his victims, was continually taught that his victims "ask for it" if they show their knees or shoulders, and was told that he would have "authority" over his wife. I wouldn't be surprised if he did it again after the police reports. I hope to God he didn't do anything to Anna or Mackynzie.

[BlackSheep]

I disagree. Until a few days ago, we did not have evidence that Josh actually was as vile as the internet rumors claimed. His behavior had predatory aspects and showed itself to be growing more brazen. It was covered up for a long time. It is highly unusual for these types of sexually predatory behaviors to suddenly and completely change, even with prayer and Jesus and manual labor. He has had unfettered access to numerous children in the past decade.

I don't say this lightly, and it's clouded by past personal memories which do complicate the issue at hand. But even if an 8 or 4 or 12 year old says things are okay, that doesn't mean things should move on, consequence-free, based on their words. Children cannot completely nor adequately advocate for themselves. It is incumbent upon parents or mature, close parties to ensure their needs are addressed and repercussions enforced, even if the youth cannot identify their needs at the time or understand the meaning of the repercussions.

We need to err on the side of safety and precaution. He should be further investigated. Moving on and/or ignoring warning signs has allowed men in his movement (and elsewhere, throughout time, sadly) to continue to abuse people. We cannot diagnose online, but someone in CPS or some other department/s needs to spend some time with Josh. We should ensure the safety of his children and others.

His parents should have sought real help for him long ago. They should be blamed for this. This should weigh on their minds, souls, and hearts. In the absence of real effective help, we need to be sure that he is no longer a threat to others. This isn't baseless speculation. He has harmed before and it is possible that other survivors of his abuse exist, silently standing by. We shouldn't try to identify potential victims, but Josh was cheated of real therapy and rehabilitation years ago. As a society, we should be sure that he is moving forward without harming others.

Agreed with the bold. There is no known evidence of abuse of the boys, but it bears discussion as a possibility. Claiming that it is true based on what we know? No. But could it be possible? Certainly. Until a few days ago, there was no evidence of abuse of any of the girls, or anyone at all. Persistent rumors, but no evidence. So I think it's valid to discuss this as a possibility.

We should be concerned about all of the children. Even those who weren't abused in any way, they were witness to, if not the actual acts, then at least the fallout of it all. And that in and of itself would be bad enough.

Girl or boy, abused or not, they have all been done a grave disservice by their parents, their church elders, and the legal authorities.

Someone mentioned in an earlier part of this thread that Josh was given his own room in the TTH. Idle speculation perhaps. But someday we may look back and once again say, "the signs were there". As with all things, time will tell.

[Buzzard]

Buzzard is right - the case that the local newspaper found is Josh suing Arkansas Health and Human Services.

This is from a blog on the Arkansas Times website - it may be complete hokum:

http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/ar ... -and-woods

Which means that Josh may have been on the registry during the initial filming. At the very least he was under some form of observation. This indicates the fraud sold the the public (ie the duggars being "perfect Christians") was present and likely known to tlc at the outset.

[BlackSheep]

Which means that Josh may have been on the registry during the initial filming. At the very least he was under some form of observation. This indicates the fraud sold the the public (ie the duggars being "perfect Christians") was present and likely known to tlc at the outset.

Not that Duggars care what I think about them... But I'd have an iota more respect for them if they'd handled all of this properly. Real help for Josh and his victims. A real report to authorities (not to JB's buddy on the force). Real efforts to protect his victims from further abuse. Real efforts to prevent Josh from doing this again to anyone. Real efforts to assure that their children were being raised in an environment that didn't foster this sort of behavior.

[ApologistsBeDamned]

I AM NOT MINIMIZING WHAT HAPPENED BY THIS STATEMENT. I AM ONLY POINTING OUT SOME FACTS.

None of us know what was going through Josh's head when be did what he did.

There are an awful lot of people claiming he wouldn't have done this or that if he were or weren't a genuine predatory paedophile.

You don't know.

Saying he didn't molest this sibling or that sibling because she was too tall, looked older, was older than his preferences is also pure conjecture.

It is possible be picked his victims for no other reason than these ones were less likely to stop him, less likely to understand what was happening, more likely to go along with it at first, were more sound sleepers, were physically nearer when an urge struck, or just slept closer to a quick exit.

You don't know.

You have no idea what Josh was thinking. Did he do it secretly because he knew it was illegal, or because he felt shame, or because he just knew feeling anything was wrong. Maybe the first time he did it with a girl his age and in the spirit of curiosity and his parents flipped out so much he would rather not try that again.

You don't know.

You don't know what touching was involved nor the victims immediate reaction to it nor his reaction to their reaction.

You don't know.

AND WHILE WE ARE HERE...

You don't know what those victims really felt.

Sometimes things happen to you that other people think was horrible and must be life changing and should have ruined your life and you just think "Nah, it happened, sure it wasn't like I asked for it or anything but it wasn't life altering and I never think about it."

Don't put your emotions on those victims. That is their prerogative and how dare you claim you know more because of whatever happened in your life.

Some of these victims might have thought at the time Josh was just being strange, or they might have been asleep and were only told after the fact. Heck they may have been so indoctrinated that they just thought any touching between boy and girl wasn't allowed and feel no different about it than if some other boy touched them during a game of tag.

The point is you don't know.

Neither do I.

[vienna]

GOP ally suggests criminal charges for police chief who released Duggar sex abuse Report

Now they go for the one who is really to blame for all this: The Police chief. This cult-club really sticks together.

But one has to admit, that the personality of victims of sexual abuse should be protected. It became clear from the report that the duggar girls have been the victims. But in this case I am really gals that the truth came out. When the Duggars, including the Girls, promote their Lifestyle they should let People know what their cult includes.

http://us.newscodex.com/gop-ally-sugges ... d4162227ca

[Justme]

http://www.people.com/article/online-co ... olestation

(not breaking the link, cause, they didn't break their link to us!)

They linked back to us.

:D :D :D :D :D :D

[lynnieb]

Does anyone else remember the episode where Jackson was running around collecting laundry and he couldn’t get in the girls room because the door was locked? Michelle joked that it was because they knew the cameras were out there and they weren’t camera ready yet. As much as their parents failed them, at least those girls could lock the door at night.

As much as I’d love to believe nothing has happened in many years, I’m concerned about Jenny and Johanna. Maybe, possibly, you could chalk Jenny’s consistent depressive state on personality traits, but there has been a stark, visible, change in Hanny in the last 12 months. I was concerned about both before this came out, even more so now. Has anyone else picked up on that?

I also wonder if TLC won’t announce a spinoff with the older kids. Most fans won’t balk at watching the victims as long as Josh is gone. If Derrik and Jill head to Nepal it would be a distraction and fill more than a few episodes. Then Jessa’s baby, Josiah’s wedding. They can fill a season with the kids, easily. There’s a reason they haven’t fully axed the show yet.