Josh Duggar Admits Molestation of 5 Juveniles - Part 6

[nelliebelle1197]

The problem is that isn't actually the law. So I am not sure this cop actually determined that himself ormthis was just his silly summary of whre the case went.

It is also possible this sentence was added after the FOIA when compiling the summary.

What we read was not the actual police report so we can only go on very basic info that might have been typed up by anyone years later.

What do you mean by "that is not the law"? The SOL for this type of injury in Arkansas begins the day crime occurred and ends three years after. You can't report today that you were robbed six years ago; the SOL has run out. It different for murder and some civil action (your medical device fails 4 years after implantation and injures you; the doctor knew it would and an email is uncovered - he might still be prosecuted for criminal negligence even though the crime occurred outside the statute). So I am confused by that assertation.

[skulduggery]

What can cps do at this point? It's not illegal to raise your kid fundie even if it should be. As long as there's no abuse or neglect cps has their hands tied. I doubt the girls would even speak or if they did it would be robotic.

Hm. The petition is to investigate the parents for not reporting child abuse, not having fundamentalist beliefs.

Considering that Josh Duggar himself admitted to the abuse, then it should be safe to say that the abuse did happen, and is a reason to have them investigated for failing to report.

[jqlgoblue]

TLC is dragging their feet because of money, but I also think b/c of ideology.

I do think 19 kids and counting is between 30-50% of channel revenue.

But, beyond that look at who their shows are about... nearly all families are in the "solidly religious" category. Even the Little Couple is very Catholic (this didn't need to be so). Whoever is at the top is likely very Christian and likely in the camp that says a Christian who has had a conversation with Jesus and been forgiven is good to go and heathens are going to hell, so it's all good. I think they're struggling to understand the full impact of this themselves.

[JenniferJuniper]

3 years since the time of discovery, but not necessary of the act.

"'Time of discovery' means when the injured party discovers the effect of the injury or condition attributable to the childhood sexual abuse. "

http://law.justia.com/codes/arkansas/20 ... /16-56-130

Just to be clear, these are the civil codes, not criminal.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

The statute you cited is specifically for CIVIL cases, not criminal. I don't know what the statute was for criminal at the time, but this is not it. Some states have a discovery rule for criminal, some do not. People seem to be very confused about the difference, but it is extremely important. This is about suing for money, not to the state acting or putting someone in jail.

I looked up the statute of limitations for sexual abuse against minors in Arkansas and this is the only thing that isn't rape that came up.

However, I did just find this on the subject: http://www.katv.com/story/21310684/stat ... sex-crimes

The bill mentioned in the story: http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/ ... s/SB92.pdf

It was signed into law as Act 144

The molestation of the girls, from what I understand, is sexual assault in the second degree. According to Act 144, any of the girls can file a case against him at any time.

[JenniferJuniper]

From what has been reported, I think Oprah handled it exactly right. She called the appropriate authorities to investigate and trusted in them to monitor and handle the situation. Unfortunately they screwed up. She should not have leaked it out of respect for the girls and because there was no way for her to ascertain exactly what happened and what was already being done. But she also made sure she in no way promoted this family. Honestly, Oprah did everything right.

There was nothing else she could have done. It had to end with the report to the authorities.

If you believe your neighbor is abusing his child and you appropriately report it to the authorities, you aren't going to get any updates on what's going on.

Further, if you were mistaken and no crime was committed, but you decided to tell the rest of the neighborhood that Neighbor 1 is a child abuser, or worse yet, you posted it on a community website, Neighbor 1 could sue your for slander and/or libel.

[ApologistsBeDamned]

What do you mean by "that is not the law"? The SOL for this type of injury in Arkansas begins the day crime occurred and ends three years after. You can't report today that you were robbed six years ago; the SOL has run out. It different for murder and some civil action (your medical device fails 4 years after implantation and injures you; the doctor knew it would and an email is uncovered - he might still be prosecuted for criminal negligence even though the crime occurred outside the statute). So I am confused by that assertation.

No, first of all the three year SOL is for the civil.

At the time the criminal wss seven years.

Secondly, it is from time of discovery. Discovery is a legal sense does not mean the time it happened.

Many people are very confused here because In Touch misreported and because it is possible the cop in this case also seems to think it wss three years.

The criminal code is 5-14-124 through 127

Many people on here are quoting the civil code.

[NewSeasonOfLife]

Please, with the amount of people who seem to have known in NWA, there's no way the entire crew didn't know.

Plus, as I said before, they'd had to have known, even without random people reporting it. First of all, the first special came out in 2004. So they were well established in the Duggar household by the time the investigation took place in 2006. Second, as pointed out millions of times before this even broke, the Duggars didn't pay for anything in that house (except the kitchen if Alice is right on that). That means that all of the cameras and such INSIDE the house were paid for by someone else, most likely TLC. If TLC was going to fork over that money, they were going to need to know why, especially since the cameras are only inside the house. Finally, there are 19 kids in that family. There's no way in hell that the information didn't slip at some point in time.

I would agree that TLC has to have been tipped off at some point and ignored it probably. There is no way this was new news to them on some level.

One thing I thought of - if the pedophile trooper was telling the truth and JB told him there was only one victim, what if that's what JB told everyone? And maybe he said or implied it was the non-family member and made it out to be mutual indiscretion or something that sounds like teenage experimentation more than molestation?

There are a lot of ways he could have spun that to make it sound a lot less criminal than feeling a child up in their sleep, which is what Josh admitted to in the police report. If that were the case TLC might not have thought it was a big deal, and if that was the way he said it to others, like the Kellers, that might be why they were way more forgiving. That might also be a large part of why there seems to be a misinformation campaign going amongst the fundies to make it sound like the sisters weren't the ones molested.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I would agree that TLC has to have been tipped off at some point and ignored it probably. There is no way this was new news to them on some level.

One thing I thought of - if the pedophile trooper was telling the truth and JB told him there was only one victim, what if that's what JB told everyone? And maybe he said or implied it was the non-family member and made it out to be mutual indiscretion or something that sounds like teenage experimentation more than molestation?

There are a lot of ways he could have spun that to make it sound a lot less criminal than feeling a child up in their sleep, which is what Josh admitted to in the police report. If that were the case TLC might not have thought it was a big deal, and if that was the way he said it to others, like the Kellers, that might be why they were way more forgiving. That might also be a large part of why there seems to be a misinformation campaign going amongst the fundies to make it sound like the sisters weren't the ones molested.

But, if that were the case, TLC would have canceled the show by now.

[halcionne]

TLC is dragging their feet because of money, but I also think b/c of ideology.

I do think 19 kids and counting is between 30-50% of channel revenue.

But, beyond that look at who their shows are about... nearly all families are in the "solidly religious" category. Even the Little Couple is very Catholic (this didn't need to be so). Whoever is at the top is likely very Christian and likely in the camp that says a Christian who has had a conversation with Jesus and been forgiven is good to go and heathens are going to hell, so it's all good. I think they're struggling to understand the full impact of this themselves.

I can't make heads or tails of the wikipedia article. The Newhouse family has a 31% interest, maybe? John Hendricks was running the show until a year ago? Can anyone shed some light on this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_ ... governance

Edit: I guess David Zaslav is the head honcho.

[justbecause]

That's what I've never been able to understand. I only found out about the Duggars a year ago when a coworker put the show on. He was amazed that I'd never heard of them, but I was immediately both fascinated and put off by the family and their show. I could tell -- almost immediately -- that something about these people was off. What they said in front of the cameras, the way the show was framed... I just got a bad feeling that they weren't just a wholesome Christian family. I think it only took me a couple of days to find out about ATI/IBLP and Quiverfull. I don't understand how so many people could watch them for years and not realize they were part of a cult. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the mainstream media has finally picked up on this stuff, but why did it have to take such a horrendous scandal to get people to care?

So this is going to sound a little odd, so bare with me for a minute or so, but I think what I found as odd was that they smiled all the time (or at least seemed like they were :liar: ). We all know that most people have up days and down days to some degree. I think it was that they always seemed to be on the same level. Rather than small hills and valley's like regular people they were always trying to stay at a certain level of everything's great. But with that big of a family, that can't be the case.

Does anyone else feel this way?

[skulduggery]

I looked up the statute of limitations for sexual abuse against minors in Arkansas and this is the only thing that isn't rape that came up.

However, I did just find this on the subject: http://www.katv.com/story/21310684/stat ... sex-crimes

The bill mentioned in the story: http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/ ... s/SB92.pdf

It was signed into law as Act 144

The molestation of the girls, from what I understand, is sexual assault in the second degree. According to Act 144, any of the girls can file a case against him at any time.

Question: can Josh still face charges as an adult for what he did as a minor, though? The sites I visited - and none of them are specific to AR - said it depends on the severity of the crime. Does anyone here know for certain?

[Fascinated]

So this is going to sound a little odd, so bare with me for a minute or so, but I think what I found as odd was that they smiled all the time (or at least seemed like they were :liar: ). We all know that most people have up days and down days to some degree. I think it was that they always seemed to be on the same level. Rather than small hills and valley's like regular people they were always trying to stay at a certain level of everything's great. But with that big of a family, that can't be the case.

Does anyone else feel this way?

Yes, but it's part of their mandate to 'keep sweet'. They are REQUIRED not just to pretend they are happy but to BE happy. Can you imagine?

[Snarkle Motion]

Question: can Josh still face charges as an adult for what he did as a minor, though? The sites I visited - and none of them are specific to AR - said it depends on the severity of the crime. Does anyone here know for certain?

So its possible that the statute of limitations ran out but it has since been revoked based on the law you cite from 2013. Did the the Duggars believe that this had been closed without being aware of the changes to the law?

[vtsunshine]

I honestly don't think the girls would know what to do or say on their own show. Why would they even think about having one? JBoob is the puppeteer. He makes all decisions. Even if the girls are now adults, considering their background and education, they would have nothing to offer viewers. I can't see them on the couch talking about this. Nor would I want to see that.

The girls had to live with that for years. Did they even understand what happened to them when they were young?

And if Oprah did know wouldn't she have leaked it out somehow? Wouldn't she have kept an eye out to see how this would all play out with the family? Wouldn't Oprah have wanted to see everyone get the help needed?

From what has been reported, I think Oprah handled it exactly right. She called the appropriate authorities to investigate and trusted in them to monitor and handle the situation. Unfortunately they screwed up. She should not have leaked it out of respect for the girls and because there was no way for her to ascertain exactly what happened and what was already being done. But she also made sure she in no way promoted this family. Honestly, Oprah did everything right.

[eh02]

So this is going to sound a little odd, so bare with me for a minute or so, but I think what I found as odd was that they smiled all the time (or at least seemed like they were :liar: ). We all know that most people have up days and down days to some degree. I think it was that they always seemed to be on the same level. Rather than small hills and valley's like regular people they were always trying to stay at a certain level of everything's great. But with that big of a family, that can't be the case.

Does anyone else feel this way?

Smiling all the time is odd, 100%. It makes you think: what are they trying to compensate for? I consider myself a pretty happy person but I'm not typically smiling unless, you know, something makes me laugh or I see a cute dog or something like that.

And it is very, very intentional. You're essentially training your children to ignore their feelings. If you're scared, sad, angry...just smile until you push your feelings so far back into your brain that you forget they were ever there.

We have a wide range of emotions for a reason. It makes me so sad for kids in families like the Duggars because they so often go years, or decades, into adulthood before they begin to recognize all of the unmanaged emotions that they just tucked away for later. Kids need to learn how to actually process difficult emotions in a healthy way, not to pretend they don't exist.

[nelliebelle1197]

No, first of all the three year SOL is for the civil.

At the time the criminal wss seven years.

Secondly, it is from time of discovery. Discovery is a legal sense does not mean the time it happened.

Many people are very confused here because In Touch misreported and because it is possible the cop in this case also seems to think it wss three years.

The criminal code is 5-14-124 through 127

Many people on here are quoting the civil code.

No. The statute clearly states that the time limitations start after the offense's commission:

http://law.justia.com/codes/arkansas/20 ... -1/5-1-109

I checked statue revisions in 2010 and 12 and both are clear that the statute of limitations for this class of felony is 3 years. Can you provide a cite for the 7 year SOL?

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

So its possible that the statute of limitations ran out but it has since been revoked based on the law you cite from 2013. Did the the Duggars believe that this had been closed without being aware of the changes to the law?

Since most news outlets don't seem to know about this law change, I wouldn't be surprised if the Duggars didn't.

As for whether Josh can be tried, I don't know near enough legal jargon to properly find the answer. Someone else will have to weigh in on that.

[justoneoftwo]

I looked up the statute of limitations for sexual abuse against minors in Arkansas and this is the only thing that isn't rape that came up.

However, I did just find this on the subject: http://www.katv.com/story/21310684/stat ... sex-crimes

The bill mentioned in the story: http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/ ... s/SB92.pdf

It was signed into law as Act 144

The molestation of the girls, from what I understand, is sexual assault in the second degree. According to Act 144, any of the girls can file a case against him at any time.

Again, the girls filing against him would be civil, not criminal.

The article refers to eliminating the criminal statute of limitations. Generally this would only be for cases that happen after the law changes, although without looking at the law itself I can't be sure (also, not a lawyer from Arkansas). I have not looked extensively but I haven't found the statute from the time the crime was committed, so I don't know what the CRIMINAL statute of limitations was then.

Civil statues of limitations depend on what it was for, for sexual abuse it would be 3 years (http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-serv ... sexua.aspx). They could also try for intentional infliction of emotional distress, or possibly negligence, but I don't know how long that would be. Some of the girls could file a civil case against him, as the statute of limitations would be tolled until they are 18, for Jana it would have started 7 years ago (too late), Jill 6 years ago (too late), Jessa 4 years ago (too late), Jinger 3 years (not too late, but she better get on it) and for Joy it has not yet begun. As for when the harm was discovered it gets complicated because it also begins to run when the harm reasonably should have been discovered. Jana would have a hard time convincing a court that she shouldn't have reasonably discovered that molestation harmed her at the time it occurred or at least by the time she was 18.

[ApologistsBeDamned]

No. The statute clearly states that the time limitations start after the offense's commission:

http://law.justia.com/codes/arkansas/20 ... -1/5-1-109

I checked statue revisions in 2010 and 12 and both are clear that the statute of limitations for this class of felony is 3 years. Can you provide a cite for the 7 year SOL?

All felonies were seven years at the time unless otherwise exempt.

Please show me the three year criminal NOT civil.

Here is a lawyer discussing it:

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/why-the-dugg ... gation-end

[littlesparklingflame]

Smiling all the time is odd, 100%. It makes you think: what are they trying to compensate for? I consider myself a pretty happy person but I'm not typically smiling unless, you know, something makes me laugh or I see a cute dog or something like that.

And it is very, very intentional. You're essentially training your children to ignore their feelings. If you're scared, sad, angry...just smile until you push your feelings so far back into your brain that you forget they were ever there.

This reminds me of a scene I watched in one of TLC's Bates episodes. I remember the mum gathering the younger kids in the living room for some kind of morning energetic activity, and she basically encouraged them to repeat loudly, clapping their hands "if you act enthusiastic you will feel enthusiastic", and again, and again, and again, faster and faster...Felt like a scene from "1984"

[Arete]

So this is going to sound a little odd, so bare with me for a minute or so, but I think what I found as odd was that they smiled all the time (or at least seemed like they were :liar: ). We all know that most people have up days and down days to some degree. I think it was that they always seemed to be on the same level. Rather than small hills and valley's like regular people they were always trying to stay at a certain level of everything's great. But with that big of a family, that can't be the case.

Does anyone else feel this way?

Happiness and joy are the only emotions you are allowed to express in Gothardism. Everything must be done joyfully, including the housework. Failure to be joyful earns "correction". They are trained as young children to show happiness or else.

[skulduggery]

Yes, but it's part of their mandate to 'keep sweet'. They are REQUIRED not just to pretend they are happy but to BE happy. Can you imagine?

Not only do I know this, I've lived it. As a child I wasn't allowed to just sit and stare or be lost in my own thoughts. I had to "smile" and "put on a happy face." Unhappiness or complaining was not allowed. I was always reminded that anything less than being Miss Congeniality was having a poor attitude, seflish, ungrateful, ect.

Now I go through life looking like a smiling Sheldon meme.

[justbecause]

Petition for Arkansas DHS to launch a formal investigation

https://www.change.org/p/dhs-arkansas-d ... olestation

Wow. That's interesting. I wonder if that will work. I'm going to sign it!

[nelliebelle1197]

So its possible that the statute of limitations ran out but it has since been revoked based on the law you cite from 2013. Did the the Duggars believe that this had been closed without being aware of the changes to the law?

The KATV story involves federal prosecution and has no bearing on any of this.

It would not be retroactive and the crimes listed in that bill are much more severe than what Josh did. He did not even commit incest under the law:

http://law.justia.com/codes/arkansas/20 ... 2/5-26-202