Everything Josh Duggar, Child Molester - Part 7

[Four is Enough]

"you need a bun to eat the fine Benny Lava....." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[sense and nonsense]

"you need a bun to eat the fine Benny Lava....." [emoji38] [emoji38] [emoji38] [emoji38] [emoji38]

Don't tell me the nuns are gayyyyyy

I love you inside eyyyyy

:D :D

ETA: For those wondering, look up Benny Lava on YouTube.

You're welcome.

[ColeMarie86]

I do feel bad about the idea of the kids going back to that life :( Imagine going from running across the dining room table, screaming around the house and being a bit crazy, to beatings every day because everything you loved doing before is against the rules.

I totally guessed Michelle was an angry person under the crazy eyes and baby voice. She just seems like the kind of person who I can see absolutely screaming at whatever child pissed them off and threatening to absolutely beat the shit out of them.

I remember a while back coming across articles where she confessed she used to be unable to control yelling at the kids. If I remember correctly, she says she prayed for calmness and eventually it happened because Jesus, but the funny thing is that the timetable for her calming fits with the older girls taking over her responsibilities. Go figure.

christianpost.com/news/michelle-duggars-anger-problem-god-is-convicting-me-mother-says-video---103837/

[freehannie]

Another person, the elder from the church the Duggars attended, who was present when Josh spoke to Hutchens says that Josh disclosed all of the abuse.

http://www.nwaonline.com/news/2015/may/31/duggar-witness-contradicts-corporal-s-c/

Do we think this elder is Jim Holt?

[Sister Mozz]

Apologies for this long post. I tried to be as brief as possible

My father was a fundie child (Mennonite) who left the church but kept a lot of the patriarchal practices. I (a girl) was the equivalent of ‘blanket trained’, so the only feelings I ever had were guilt and shame. I never complained about extreme neglect and abuse…. First, it was ‘normal’ so it genuinely did not occur to me to say I needed health care, for example. I was often punished for being ‘lazy’ because I was short sighted and could not see things pointed out for me to do. My only aim in life was to act like everyone else so I would be publicly shamed for being “attention seekingâ€.

The reason I bring this up is to illustrate why the Duggar survivors might not see themselves as victims. The problem with blanket training is that it all happens before language develops. Without language, we can’t think thoughts like, “this is unfairâ€. We grow up not understanding that we actually have any basic human rights. It is absolutely normal to accept any physical abuse of our bodies because “wanting†and “needing†are not things associated with being a child.

Although I will always be damaged to some extent by my “trainingâ€, (and I am 60 now) two life events were unexpectedly therapeutic.

The first was becoming a parent. I was shocked and surprised when my newborn baby cried and my instinct was to pick him up and comfort him. It was a real eye-opener for me to realise that that it is and automatic response to comfort your baby. This made me see my parents’ way of parenting me did not fit with my experience as a parent. I was 25 when I first considered the possibility that my parents were not good parents.

The next event was earth shattering. I was 35. I was chatting over coffee with a friend and described some minor incident in my childhood. It was no big deal to me at all, and was simply to illustrate something or other.

My friend was first appalled by my anecdote, then outraged by what I saw as a perfectly normal event. She had to explain to me why she was outraged. Finally, her outrage let me see that I had been severely and systematically abused as a child. I connected this realisation with this feeling I had always had, but had never understood. Many times as a child I was outraged by what was happening, but I was never allowed to express this or understand why I was outraged. I was never given a name to the feeling (such as I was given a name for the feeling that was ‘hungry’, for example. I was totally invisible, treated as an object rather than human being, and I thought this was normal.

My friend’s outrage on my behalf opened up my eyes that a) I had basic human rights b) no human being should be treated like that, c) I did not deserve any of this and d) It is normal to feel outraged.

As a result of my experience, I think that the publicity of Josh’s molestation of his sisters is not necessarily a totally negative thing in the long run (although I agree that their lack of control over the abuse going public reinforces that they have no rights and no say about anything that happens to them, but even this issue uses concepts (like personal agency) that they have no knowledge of).

My impression is the Duggar survivors have never been allowed become aware of their normal and justifiable feelings of outrage at the many injustices they have endured. e.g. Jana being made to give her prized possession to Jessa because Jessa was tormenting her (WTF!!!). Ditto for the girls having to forgive Josh for molesting them and then carrying the shame that THEY are impure, the most despicable thing in their world. Note also Michelle’s comment about not telling her children she was proud of them when Jill gave birth. These girls have been trained to believe that they are nothing but hymens before marriage and uteruses after marriage. Their job is to stay compliant and sweet until the day they official become a uterus.

I think that later on down the track, when these girls see the outrage expressed in the many public forums (outside and inside FJ), this will allow them to connect the dots their life of shaming neglect and their as yet unidentified emotions that they were denied and punished for experiencing.

Having another person demonstrate genuine outrage provided me with what I needed to feel like I was not invisible or simply an object to be used, like a chair. I think the public expressions of outrage will be very healing for the Duggar girls when they (probably accidently) come across examples of this outrage at how they were trained to be objects with no feelings and no human rights. This is a potent potential good that could well emerge from the current public exposure of their appalling life experiences as JB and Michelle’s daughters, even if they only get to see the public outcry years from now. I found genuine and sincere outrage to be extremely healing (much more than years of therapy).

Great post!! You summed up how I feel about this, too, complete with not realizing as a child that I was actually abused and emotionally neglected. Having people affirm that this is not normal has been transforming in my life! Now I have a voice and freedom to feel my emotions. And you know what? I can have a bad day. I was never allowed one as a child. Neither were the Duggar girls, not even on the worst days of their lives. :(

[makauflin]

Another person, the elder from the church the Duggars attended, who was present when Josh spoke to Hutchens says that Josh disclosed all of the abuse.

http://www.nwaonline.com/news/2015/may/31/duggar-witness-contradicts-corporal-s-c/

Do we think this elder is Jim Holt?

I'm thinking no on Jim Holt being the elder. I thought that the Duggars and the Holts ceased being "friendly" after JB's failed senate run in 2002/03... the whole "sin in the camp" thing. Of course, this is all just stuff I read online, so who knows?

[hennypenny]

So, let's talk about how conservative reaction to the Duggar news. Mods...Can this be a thread?

My VERY conservative sister-in-law just posted this on FB. She is probably the closest thing I can think of to a blue collar, every day Arkansan, religious folk that you can get in the area. Down to earth, from a small town, knows everyone from everywhere. The nicest girl I know by far. You can't get any more realistic view of conservative christian than her.

And she posted this on Facebook:

"This Duggar thing is so disappointing. I was a foolish fan and am now ashamed. Not only as a Christian but as an Arkansan. How dare they use the format of purity and Christianity knowing what went on in there own household yet, put themselves and their daughters out there for public scrunity and not think this would come out. I wonder if when Jim Bob found out the "family friend Christian police officer" he sought out for help was convicted of YEARS for child pornography! Did he realize that he had made a huge error. No, he went on to speak out against others beliefs and condemn them. Brings the stone at glass house full circle to me. How dare you stand superior and judge when your hands are so very soiled. Prayers for them all. Shame on you for soiling your Christian views without full disclosure before condemning. Sad for the innocent family members, victims and supporters. Just my opinion but it's Facebook so I can give it."

As an aside, I have a friend who works in a high-end spa boutique in Fayetteville (local to springdale), caters to wealthy/local famous. She said the owner is very religious, very republican, very "follow the husband as he is head of the home" and very, very, very wealthy" and also that "The People article on the front counter and all the women and just horrified. Talking about it. "makes them sick!!". She said the general feel in the area is anti-duggar and also it's all a litter embarrassing. :lol:

[justbecause]

So, let's talk about how conservative and religious people reaction to the Duggar news. Mods...Can this be a thread?

My VERY conservative and religious sister-in-law just posted this on FB. She is probably the closest thing I can think of to a blue collar, every day Arkansan, religious folk that you can get in the area. Down to earth, from a small town, knows everyone from everywhere. The nicest girl I know by far. You can't get any more realistic view of conservative christian than her.

And she posted this on Facebook:

"This Duggar thing is so disappointing. I was a foolish fan and am now ashamed. Not only as a Christian but as an Arkansan. How dare they use the format of purity and Christianity knowing what went on in there own household yet, put themselves and their daughters out there for public scrunity and not think this would come out. I wonder if when Jim Bob found out the "family friend Christian police officer" he sought out for help was convicted of YEARS for child pornography! Did he realize that he had made a huge error. No, he went on to speak out against others beliefs and condemn them. Brings the stone at glass house full circle to me. How dare you stand superior and judge when your hands are so very soiled. Prayers for them all. Shame on you for soiling your Christian views without full disclosure before condemning. Sad for the innocent family members, victims and supporters. Just my opinion but it's Facebook so I can give it."

As an aside, I have a friend who works in a high-end spa boutique in Fayetteville (local to springdale), caters to wealthy/local famous. She said the owner is very religious, very republican, very "follow the husband as he is head of the home" and very, very, very wealthy" and also that "The People article on the front counter and all the women and just horrified. Talking about it. "makes them sick!!". She said the general feel in the area is anti-duggar and also it's all a litter embarrassing. :lol:

I'm not sure how much or if we can talk about the religious aspects of this situation or not, so mods if I am taking liberties, let me know.

I think one of the things that most Christians are appalled by is the fact that the Duggars do not practice what they preach. Everythng about them and this entire situation is not biblical at all. Most of their beliefs are not biblical either. I'm not going to elaborate more than that because I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion. These people are 'fringe' Christians, in a cult. Anyone can see that their messed up minds are in control, rather than there hearts. I'll just end it there. These are not Christians who pattern themselves after Christ. No, no. :naughty:

[hennypenny]

I'm not sure how much or if we can talk about the religious aspects of this situation or not, so mods if I am taking liberties, let me know.

I think one of the things that most Christians are appalled by is the fact that the Duggars do not practice what they preach. Everythng about them and this entire situation is not biblical at all. Most of their beliefs are not biblical either. I'm not going to elaborate more than that because I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion. These people are 'fringe' Christians, in a cult. Anyone can see that their messed up minds are in control, rather than there hearts. I'll just end it there. These are not Christians who pattern themselves after Christ. No, no. :naughty:

Oh ok, let's leave religion out of it. Let's just talk conservative Arkansanians (<---is that a word?)

[Cleopatra7]

So, let's talk about how conservative and religious people reaction to the Duggar news. Mods...Can this be a thread?

My VERY conservative and religious sister-in-law just posted this on FB. She is probably the closest thing I can think of to a blue collar, every day Arkansan, religious folk that you can get in the area. Down to earth, from a small town, knows everyone from everywhere. The nicest girl I know by far. You can't get any more realistic view of conservative christian than her.

And she posted this on Facebook:

"This Duggar thing is so disappointing. I was a foolish fan and am now ashamed. Not only as a Christian but as an Arkansan. How dare they use the format of purity and Christianity knowing what went on in there own household yet, put themselves and their daughters out there for public scrunity and not think this would come out. I wonder if when Jim Bob found out the "family friend Christian police officer" he sought out for help was convicted of YEARS for child pornography! Did he realize that he had made a huge error. No, he went on to speak out against others beliefs and condemn them. Brings the stone at glass house full circle to me. How dare you stand superior and judge when your hands are so very soiled. Prayers for them all. Shame on you for soiling your Christian views without full disclosure before condemning. Sad for the innocent family members, victims and supporters. Just my opinion but it's Facebook so I can give it."

As an aside, I have a friend who works in a high-end spa boutique in Fayetteville (local to springdale), caters to wealthy/local famous. She said the owner is very religious, very republican, very "follow the husband as he is head of the home" and very, very, very wealthy" and also that "The People article on the front counter and all the women and just horrified. Talking about it. "makes them sick!!". She said the general feel in the area is anti-duggar and also it's all a litter embarrassing. :lol:

Reactions like this are why I think that this upcoming Fox interview is going to be a disaster. The mainstream conservatives who supported the Duggars all these years have to feel like they were sold a bill of false goods. While professional culture warriors like Mike Huckabee have a vested interest in proclaiming their support for the Duggars, I think the rank and file conservatives must be furious.

[Arrowoftruth]

I don't live in the U.S. Are you able to photograph it and post it here?

Here you go

http://imgur.com/ldZpuO4

http://imgur.com/gp1vgZD

http://imgur.com/PLytCOX

[sense and nonsense]

To posters above, please DO discuss the religious aspect of it. That is the purpose of Free Jinger. Not, as the name says, to actually free anybody. Just to discuss the damage their beliefs cause.

[SassyPants]

I'm not sure how much or if we can talk about the religious aspects of this situation or not, so mods if I am taking liberties, let me know.

I think one of the things that most Christians are appalled by is the fact that the Duggars do not practice what they preach. Everythng about them and this entire situation is not biblical at all. Most of their beliefs are not biblical either. I'm not going to elaborate more than that because I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion. These people are 'fringe' Christians, in a cult. Anyone can see that their messed up minds are in control, rather than there hearts. I'll just end it there. These are not Christians who pattern themselves after Christ. No, no. :naughty:

Personally, I always wondered how the Duggars dovetailed Christianity with Gothardism and their heavy reliance of Old Testament over New Testament, made it seem like they were just making up their own hybrid denomination.

Notice how the show does not mention Gothard in name (because that would turn many people off), yet threads the tenets of Gothardism in many of the shows. The clothing, the courtships, all the kids, Big Sandy...

I do not like cunning people who pervert religion...especially when they make money in the process.

[hennypenny]

To posters above, please DO discuss the religious aspect of it. That is the purpose of Free Jinger. Not, as the name says, to actually free anybody. Just to discuss the damage their beliefs cause.

Ok, gotcha. I edited so that may help.

[frugalitymom]

Here you go

http://imgur.com/ldZpuO4

http://imgur.com/gp1vgZD

http://imgur.com/PLytCOX

Thank you for doing this.

[hennypenny]

Reactions like this are why I think that this upcoming Fox interview is going to be a disaster. The mainstream conservatives who supported the Duggars all these years have to feel like they were sold a bill of false goods. While professional culture warriors like Mike Huckabee have a vested interest in proclaiming their support for the Duggars, I think the rank and file conservatives must be furious.

I think above all, it is embarrassing for them. They were PROUD the Duggars lived in Arkansas.

[hennypenny]

YES. This is exactly how the locals feel.

[justbecause]

Reactions like this are why I think that this upcoming Fox interview is going to be a disaster. The mainstream conservatives who supported the Duggars all these years have to feel like they were sold a bill of false goods. While professional culture warriors like Mike Huckabee have a vested interest in proclaiming their support for the Duggars, I think the rank and file conservatives must be furious.

I really do not see why they are even doing this interview. The only thing that might even be remotely positive for the future if they are trying to smooth over their image to let the girls get a spin-off, which I highly doubt.

I don't see anything they could say that would add anything good or positive, because there is just too much history with this family, both on film with their family views and their political views. Everything they have done (their actions) contradict everything that they say.

I don't see anything positive that can come out of this unless they want to try to save face for their religion. Like blame themselves for their bad judgement and take that blame so people stop looking at the cult. But if that happened I would be shocked! They are too self-righteous for that, imho.

[hennypenny]

My sister-in-law that posted that has gotten 25 likes in the last hour and it Sunday, church time. A lot of those ladies have their iPhones on in service. lol

[LittleOleMe]

OK, this is my version of events from 2002 to 2006, based on the information available (mostly the police report, Alice & concernedmom, and also the early Duggar specials). Some fill-in-the-gaps are my own speculation. Also, given what's being discussed in the last few pages: I've been thinking about all this for a few days but I'm actually writing very quickly and English is not my first language, so I'm sure there are mistakes.

--- --- ---

Spring 2002: Jim Bob is a member of the Arkansas House of Representatives and running in the primary for the US Senate

March 2002: Josh confesses to his father that he had been touching his sisters inappropriately as they slept. There was a family meeting were the family was told about it but we don’t know if there was any other action.

July 2003: Josh confesses to his father that he touched a family friend in her breasts as she slept (the friend was Concernedmom’s friend’s daughter and about Josh’s age). Jim Bob says he “disciplined†Josh. I’m guessing he also contacted the girl’s family, and the family stopped attending the home church group.

March 2003: While Jim Bob & Michelle are out, Josh pulls down his little sisters pants and touches her bottom. Then he runs from the room and calls his father telling him to come home at once because he needs forgiveness. Jim Bob takes Josh to a policeman he knows, tells him only about the non-related girl. The policeman never files a report

March 2003: Jim Bob & Michelle take the matter to the church group “eldersâ€. My suspicion is that they didn’t tell them everything but just enough to get their son “help†– I’m guessing they only revealed the incident with the non-related girl. Josh’s betrothal to a girl from the group (one of Jim Holt’s daughters) is put on hold.

March – July 2003: There is another family meeting, and then Josh is sent to remodeling camp to be cured.

Sometime in 2004: Concernedmom’s friends decide to attend the home church again and find a group that’s by now hyper aware of “sexual sin†and has turned vigilante on their own children

Summer 2004: The first special is filmed

November 2004: Jim Holt is defeated in the race for the Senate and starts looking for the “sin in the camp†that caused it

December 2004: the Duggars film a Christmas segment – Josh (and his hair) is there.

Early 2005: Josh admits to watching porn to the whole congregation. Later, he caves under the pressure and confesses (to a smaller group) about molesting his sisters (and, inadvertently, that his father covered up for him). His betrothal to the Holt girl is over for good and the Holts distance themselves (at least publicly) from the Duggars. We don’t know what Josh’s punishment was. Someone writes a letter telling the whole story and hides it in a book – My impression from the police report is that it could have been Josh’s betrothed.

April 2005: Concernedmom posts her story online. The Duggars move out of their home and into a rental. Shaved-head Josh is there. By early May (Big Sandy trip) his hair is growing out

Early 2006: The Duggars move into the TTH.

Spring 2006: Josh meets Anna, his parents think she’s the answer to their problem, only to be met with a wall in Pa Keller, who wants his daughter to wait until she’s 20.

December 2006: Police investigation

This story just makes me really sad for everyone involved – including Josh. And I’m angry at the parents. This thing has made me realize that they’re crappier parents than I thought they were – not because their son molested his sisters, but for their hypocrisy, for the way they handled things, for not teaching their children personal responsibility or how to be accountable to themselves. I’m still trying to figure out how they could possibly not have the foresight to avoid putting their family out there and making it everyone’s business – didn’t they ever think that when this story came out (like they always do) it would only make things that much harder for their kids?

That's all. I can't believe it took something like this to get me to post again.

:cry:

The first special was filmed when she was pregnant with baby 15 - Jackson. He was born in May 2004, and given the way their outdoor area looks, it was likely filmed in November 2003. As in mere months after Josh returned from "counseling camp"

[justbecause]

My sister-in-law that posted that has gotten 25 likes in the last hour and it Sunday, church time. A lot of those ladies have their iPhones on in service. lol

What has gotten 25 likes?

[justbecause]

Personally, I always wondered how the Duggars dovetailed Christianity with Gothardism and their heavy reliance of Old Testament over New Testament, made it seem like they were just making up their own hybrid denomination.

Notice how the show does not mention Gothard in name (because that would turn many people off), yet threads the tenets of Gothardism in many of the shows. The clothing, the courtships, all the kids, Big Sandy...

I do not like cunning people who pervert religion...especially when they make money in the process.

At the highest level what pushes Gothardism is fear.

[JenniferJuniper]

I really do not see why they are even doing this interview. The only thing that might even be remotely positive for the future if they are trying to smooth over their image to let the girls get a spin-off, which I highly doubt.

I don't see anything they could say that would add anything good or positive, because there is just too much history with this family, both on film with their family views and their political views. Everything they have done (their actions) contradict everything that they say.

I don't see anything positive that can come out of this unless they want to try to save face for their religion. Like blame themselves for their bad judgement and take that blame so people stop looking at the cult. But if that happened I would be shocked! They are too self-righteous for that, imho.

I'm not sure Jim Bob would even support the idea of his married daughters having a spin-off. (not that I see one working. I think I'd rather watch the Arndts play with their stuffed penguins than watch Jill and Jessa play house in the houses that belong to their father). The sons-in-law would probably end up with too much power for his liking.

This is all about Jim Bob and Michelle. It always has been. The kids were just accessories for them. We know now how badly they failed as parents early on, and these days the kids are almost completely feral. They've been trained to smile and follow all the rules in public ("They have a rod"), but at home it looks like anything goes. Not only did they have far too many kids to manage, they really are both only into themselves and each other.

Considering the darkness that we know has gone on in the household, and guessing that this is almost certainly just the tip of the iceberg, do they they have any concerns about the fact that they have a million adolescent boys and four very young girls? I'm not accusing the howlers of anything, but considering what went on with Josh, you think they'd be extremely sensitive to the fact that they've raised one child molester already. But I don't get the sense that anyone is being watched too closely, especially now that two J-slaves have been released.

I'll be curious to see if they throw Josh under the bus, even subtly. He can't do anything for them anymore. Can't further their political agenda with his high-level hate group position and he and his family will likely not participate in any future video endeavors Jim Bob tries to get going.

I'll stop rambling now, but I leave it by saying Josh is also a victim. A smug, unlikable victim, but still a victim of narcissistic, whack-job parents. My hope for him is that this is a serious wake-up call and that he eventually grasps that everything he's been taught is bullshit. I know it's unlikely that we'll ever see a repentant 35 year old Josh who has completely and sincerely let go of Gothardism and his parents' hatefulness and learned to respect and embrace the differences in people. But it's really his only path to redemption.

[Marissap]

I'm thinking no on Jim Holt being the elder. I thought that the Duggars and the Holts ceased being "friendly" after JB's failed senate run in 2002/03... the whole "sin in the camp" thing. Of course, this is all just stuff I read online, so who knows?

There's a lot of pics of the duggars on the holts Instagram so I'm thinking they have patched things up.

[moriah]

Another person, the elder from the church the Duggars attended, who was present when Josh spoke to Hutchens says that Josh disclosed all of the abuse.

http://www.nwaonline.com/news/2015/may/31/duggar-witness-contradicts-corporal-s-c/

Do we think this elder is Jim Holt?

I don't know if it was Holt or not, but he'd be an idiot to admit it if he was. He might think that satisfied his mandated reporting obligation, but it most assuredly did not. For one thing, the report should have been made *immediately* and not after Josh got back from "training". I know there have been some changes to the law in the decade+ that has passed, but the trooper said he should have called the Hotline, which suggests that he knew back then what the mandated reporting obligations were.