Everything Josh Duggar, Child Molester - Part 7

[Helena]

Michael Reagan is disgusted by it all.

cagle.com/2015/05/conservative-christians-miscount/

[CrucifySanta]

I can't help but chuckle every time the word 'defraud' is used. It's like a totally different language or something.

Exactly. And the use of special terminology is a key attribute of cults, in general - helps distinguish those in the group from those outside of the group. Creepy.

[DaisyD]

I love the point about Obama, because it's true. They'd be driving down the streets with PA systems if it had been him. But leave poor Joshy alone, he was just a kid...

[SassyPants]

In all seriousness, I bet the younger group doesn't even know yet. They aren't in production right now, so the fact that the camera crew isn't there isn't anything yet.

Unless Boob and J'Chelle are doing the we must be saved and they are in praying mode 24/7. We have to ask for forgiveness, repent and pray. Repeat over and over. This is what I see going on in the house. Boob calling the family to gather around and the praying for the sinners that caused destruction among the compound.

I seriously feel sad for the ones that are living there.

Lucky Jessa and Jill.

I bet Michelle is on lock down in the TTH- I wonder if JB, being the egomaniac that he presents, is still tooling around NWA exhibiting his fake, a-shucks routine?

If the parents have been hiding at the TTH 24/7 and roaming around the house, I'd bet everyone is on edge. None of those kids are used to seeing their parents hanging around.

[SassyPants]

I'm sure the no pillows thing is from their crib days and just an oversight.

Hey Michelle, how come your kids don't have pillows? They don't? I never thought about it. Maybe you should Jana.:chuckle:

Once you're out of the crib, you're a J-slave responsibility.

[ThatsMyTaquito]

Seriously? Their young teen boy tells them he has a serious sexual issue and they respond by shaving his head, sending him to boot camp and keeping the whole thing as a great dirty secret while they go on their merry way bringing tv cameras into their lives 24/7 so they can make money and gain celebrity status? That was FOR him? Nope, it was all about them.

I dont like what Josh has become but I dont think he is getting off lightly for his crimes right now, it would have been so much easier if the parents did the right thing while he was still a child. He will live the rest of his life known as a child molester now. His parents are financially set up for life, his own life is completely fucked, in terms of how outsiders will view him.

Still, I am most sorry for his and his parents' victims, and I think his fauxpology was the work of an entitled arsehole, but I am sad for Josh too, for the missed opportunity to gain real insight about the impact of his actions, and to learn about genuine mutually respectful relationships from people with specialist expertise.

It's damage control and to put feelers out. Josh was the best chance the

Tea Party had to finally get some one in a position of power.

He had the extremists and the Christians backing him (thanks to the show), and was being groomed for it.

The connections between Fox, certain ® candidates, Gothard/IBLP,

and Americans for Prosperity (Koch) are mind numbing to say the least.

j-perv and the snooty mullet are going to play the victim card and try to ride it the whole way to a comeback.

If that happens, you'll see Josh slowly start worming his way back in when they think everyone has finally forgotten about it.

[halcionne]

Amy's IG is active again, and still getting lots of comments about the molestation. I wonder if she just dgaf, or if she has agreed to let the family know when it's safe to go back in the water, as it were. Either way, I'm sure it would be next to impossible to keep her off social media for very long.

[mebeforee]

How can you say that they threw Josh under the bus? Everything they have done has only supported Josh.

I really don't feel they've been supporting Josh so much as supporting the Duggar brand. They're covering their own asses because, as adults whose child confessed to his sexual assaults, it was their responsibility to make sure the victims and their son all got the help they needed. They failed on that, failed to protect their children, and failed to report it to authorities who might have actually enforced some kind of counseling on all the children involved. They support Josh insofar as it helps them. They support him because to criticize their oldest son would damage their image (especially after so many years of ignoring the problem and giving Josh special favors in terms of money and work). I have never really felt a lot of warmth between Josh and his parents, the only emotional moment I can really remember is when Josh decided to take the FRC job and cried at the thought of leaving his home. He also took that job against their wishes (and I may be giving them too much credit with the idea that perhaps his past crimes are one of the reasons his parents didn't want him to take the job - the likelihood that it would be brought out into the public eye and have a much different impact than if he'd stayed at home working the car lot). They protect the whole at the expense of the individual, that much is clear. It's impossible to know if their relationship with Josh is seeing any strain right now as a result of this stuff going public, but I would guess they aren't especially happy with him at the moment (largely because his attacks on the gay community have brought a lot more attention to his scandal than it would have otherwise, though the same can be said for Michelle's robocall). But they can't have those disagreements publicly because it damages their testimony to not appear like a unified front of Jesus' love.

[happy atheist]

!

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[LongDogMom]

Lucky Jessa and Jill.

Does anyone think Jessa and Jill, since they aren't living at home and thus limited by all the parental restrictions, might actually (out of curiosity) see what real people are saying online about the scandal? I mean, at home they would have no chance to see those opinions about how they are in a cult and brainwashed and how women should not be blamed for being molested, etc. and all the people standing up for them.

I wonder (a) if they'd dare...and (b) if it might plant even a teeny tiny seed of doubt about their parents and the whole Gothard cult.

I mean, I've wondered in general, if Jill and Jessa, now that they have the freedom and oppportunity to explore the internet do so, or if they are so brainwashed that they never venture beyond what their parents have deemed okay. If I was one of them, I would definitely google it and see what people are saying. And in Jill's case, I wonder if Derrick's Mom subscribe's to the *women cause lust in men so it's the victim's fault* bullshit or if she has offered a different opinion, and maybe even encouraged real counselling.

I guess we will never know, but I sure would love it if they did have a look-see and gain some differing perspectives to think about...and then they can tell Jana and Joy and Jinger...

[Boogalou]

So, let's talk about how conservative reaction to the Duggar news. Mods...Can this be a thread?

There is already a thread about that in Quiverfull of Snark, here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26073

[alyciamc]

Hey everyone, LONG time lurker, first time poster here!

I come from a religious background but nothing as extreme as the Duggars. However, with the recent news, many of my friends have been posting their support for Josh Duggar through social media. Honestly, because I know the truth about Gothard, IBLP, etc etc I'm getting SO sick of seeing their crap. Anyway, I'm not sure where to ask this but are there any informative articles or websites I can link them to that will give them a good summary of the Duggar family nonsense? Everyone just thinks I'm a total crazy person when I tried to explain this stuff to them... Thanks!

[blessalessi]

Welcome!

There have been so many articles posted, no particular one springs to mind at the moment. I'd dig in and read through some of the threads as you'll probably know best what would suit your friends' interest level. :)

[N The Prayer Closet]

I really can't picture the Duggar family huddled together in a week-long prayer session while they attempt to weather out this shit storm. I know it's all staged for the cameras but even their "bible time" looks incredibly fake and done only for the cameras. Remember when Jill announced her pregnancy? The older sisters were happily throwing their bibles several feet in front of them to hug their sister and congratulate her. It was almost like "yay! We can quit the fake bible time now!" I don't see any real Christianity in any of them anymore--save for maybe Jana and Jinger in their love for the younger children. Jim Bob and Michelle are so incredibly disingenuous. They really looked like stoned puppets in that Erica Hill interview, repeating the same old lines they've been using for a decade. Jana looked DONE.

Speaking of the Erica Hill interview, Josh is just gross gross gross in it. Jessa's looks were daggers and Ben was quietly protective and silent for once. Remember when Anna started crying when they spoke about being away from family for this pregnancy and birth? I thought that was so bizarre for her and for the Duggar brand. I think Josh gave her a WTF?-look and she quickly blamed it on pregnancy. Now I see why she was an emotional wreck and couldn't hide it anymore. Emotions aren't allowed in their world unless they are ones of contentment and sweetness. I don't normally feel bad for Anna but I did in that moment. No amount of prayer is going to make this mess go away. Their charmed life and fake image for the cameras is over forever. Oh, and my hand was shaking as I set the DVR to Faux News. I feel so....dirty.

[skulduggery]

RE: boy's room.

The similarity between the boys room and a military barracks is striking to me. They were able to build a HUGE room for all the boys, but not give them walls/partitions/ect for privacy? Also, is it just me or does it not look like they have any personal belongings? Maybe they're stored under the bed.

Maybe it was laundry day, or maybe there really are no pillows or bedspreads, or maybe they are put away every day? Still, it is weird to look at.

I don't think the similarity to the military is entirely coincidental. There would be no way to have an extremely large family and not be forced to bring order without having rigid and hierarchical control. Having a family that large can't be healthy for the kids.

[alba]

I really can't picture the Duggar family huddled together in a week-long prayer session while they attempt to weather out this shit storm. I know it's all staged for the cameras but even their "bible time" looks incredibly fake and done only for the cameras. Remember when Jill announced her pregnancy? The older sisters were happily throwing their bibles several feet in front of them to hug their sister and congratulate her. It was almost like "yay! We can quit the fake bible time now!" I don't see any real Christianity in any of them anymore--save for maybe Jana and Jinger in their love for the younger children. Jim Bob and Michelle are so incredibly disingenuous. They really looked like stoned puppets in that Erica Hill interview, repeating the same old lines they've been using for a decade. Jana looked DONE.

Speaking of the Erica Hill interview, Josh is just gross gross gross in it. Jessa's looks were daggers and Ben was quietly protective and silent for once. Remember when Anna started crying when they spoke about being away from family for this pregnancy and birth? I thought that was so bizarre for her and for the Duggar brand. I think Josh gave her a WTF?-look and she quickly blamed it on pregnancy. Now I see why she was an emotional wreck and couldn't hide it anymore. Emotions aren't allowed in their world unless they are ones of contentment and sweetness. I don't normally feel bad for Anna but I did in that moment. No amount of prayer is going to make this mess go away. Their charmed life and fake image for the cameras is over forever. Oh, and my hand was shaking as I set the DVR to Faux News. I feel so....dirty.

I was SHOCKED when I saw that part. I was brought up in a very liberal church, but when one of the guys in my confirmation class carelessly tossed a bible onto a table, the minister told him very sternly to treat it with respect. This is the kind of church that says there are many paths to the divine and Jesus isn't more valid than Krishna or Allah :lol:

[skulduggery]

Thank you for sharing this. It sums up everything that's wrong with fundyism and then some. If we could vote to sticky must-read posts, I would vote for this one.

Apologies for this long post. I tried to be as brief as possible

My father was a fundie child (Mennonite) who left the church but kept a lot of the patriarchal practices. I (a girl) was the equivalent of ‘blanket trained’, so the only feelings I ever had were guilt and shame. I never complained about extreme neglect and abuse…. First, it was ‘normal’ so it genuinely did not occur to me to say I needed health care, for example. I was often punished for being ‘lazy’ because I was short sighted and could not see things pointed out for me to do. My only aim in life was to act like everyone else so I would be publicly shamed for being “attention seekingâ€.

The reason I bring this up is to illustrate why the Duggar survivors might not see themselves as victims. The problem with blanket training is that it all happens before language develops. Without language, we can’t think thoughts like, “this is unfairâ€. We grow up not understanding that we actually have any basic human rights. It is absolutely normal to accept any physical abuse of our bodies because “wanting†and “needing†are not things associated with being a child.

Although I will always be damaged to some extent by my “trainingâ€, (and I am 60 now) two life events were unexpectedly therapeutic.

The first was becoming a parent. I was shocked and surprised when my newborn baby cried and my instinct was to pick him up and comfort him. It was a real eye-opener for me to realise that that it is and automatic response to comfort your baby. This made me see my parents’ way of parenting me did not fit with my experience as a parent. I was 25 when I first considered the possibility that my parents were not good parents.

The next event was earth shattering. I was 35. I was chatting over coffee with a friend and described some minor incident in my childhood. It was no big deal to me at all, and was simply to illustrate something or other.

My friend was first appalled by my anecdote, then outraged by what I saw as a perfectly normal event. She had to explain to me why she was outraged. Finally, her outrage let me see that I had been severely and systematically abused as a child. I connected this realisation with this feeling I had always had, but had never understood. Many times as a child I was outraged by what was happening, but I was never allowed to express this or understand why I was outraged. I was never given a name to the feeling (such as I was given a name for the feeling that was ‘hungry’, for example. I was totally invisible, treated as an object rather than human being, and I thought this was normal.

My friend’s outrage on my behalf opened up my eyes that a) I had basic human rights b) no human being should be treated like that, c) I did not deserve any of this and d) It is normal to feel outraged.

As a result of my experience, I think that the publicity of Josh’s molestation of his sisters is not necessarily a totally negative thing in the long run (although I agree that their lack of control over the abuse going public reinforces that they have no rights and no say about anything that happens to them, but even this issue uses concepts (like personal agency) that they have no knowledge of).

My impression is the Duggar survivors have never been allowed become aware of their normal and justifiable feelings of outrage at the many injustices they have endured. e.g. Jana being made to give her prized possession to Jessa because Jessa was tormenting her (WTF!!!). Ditto for the girls having to forgive Josh for molesting them and then carrying the shame that THEY are impure, the most despicable thing in their world. Note also Michelle’s comment about not telling her children she was proud of them when Jill gave birth. These girls have been trained to believe that they are nothing but hymens before marriage and uteruses after marriage. Their job is to stay compliant and sweet until the day they official become a uterus.

I think that later on down the track, when these girls see the outrage expressed in the many public forums (outside and inside FJ), this will allow them to connect the dots their life of shaming neglect and their as yet unidentified emotions that they were denied and punished for experiencing.

Having another person demonstrate genuine outrage provided me with what I needed to feel like I was not invisible or simply an object to be used, like a chair. I think the public expressions of outrage will be very healing for the Duggar girls when they (probably accidently) come across examples of this outrage at how they were trained to be objects with no feelings and no human rights. This is a potent potential good that could well emerge from the current public exposure of their appalling life experiences as JB and Michelle’s daughters, even if they only get to see the public outcry years from now. I found genuine and sincere outrage to be extremely healing (much more than years of therapy).

[halcionne]

Hey everyone, LONG time lurker, first time poster here!

I come from a religious background but nothing as extreme as the Duggars. However, with the recent news, many of my friends have been posting their support for Josh Duggar through social media. Honestly, because I know the truth about Gothard, IBLP, etc etc I'm getting SO sick of seeing their crap. Anyway, I'm not sure where to ask this but are there any informative articles or websites I can link them to that will give them a good summary of the Duggar family nonsense? Everyone just thinks I'm a total crazy person when I tried to explain this stuff to them... Thanks!

Gawker is a hollywood news site, but they are all over the Gothard stuff.

http://gawker.com/the-creepy-fundamenta ... 1706969994

[Snarkle Motion]

Are we sure that's her? Why is the page "unofficial"? And why would she be tweeting under a different name?

it's not her

from megynkelly.org:

"The views expressed in this opinion article are solely those of their author and are not necessarily shared nor endorsed by The Unofficial Megyn Kelly. The Unofficial Megyn Kelly is not associated with Megyn Kelly nor Fox News and it's service is intended to augment, supplement or enhance the service provided by the author."

[BlessaBlessa]

Does anyone think Jessa and Jill, since they aren't living at home and thus limited by all the parental restrictions, might actually (out of curiosity) see what real people are saying online about the scandal? I mean, at home they would have no chance to see those opinions about how they are in a cult and brainwashed and how women should not be blamed for being molested, etc. and all the people standing up for them.

I wonder (a) if they'd dare...and (b) if it might plant even a teeny tiny seed of doubt about their parents and the whole Gothard cult.

I mean, I've wondered in general, if Jill and Jessa, now that they have the freedom and oppportunity to explore the internet do so, or if they are so brainwashed that they never venture beyond what their parents have deemed okay. If I was one of them, I would definitely google it and see what people are saying. And in Jill's case, I wonder if Derrick's Mom subscribe's to the *women cause lust in men so it's the victim's fault* bullshit or if she has offered a different opinion, and maybe even encouraged real counselling.

I guess we will never know, but I sure would love it if they did have a look-see and gain some differing perspectives to think about...and then they can tell Jana and Joy and Jinger...

NO.

probably not yet. But maybe in a few years.

[Lillybee]

RE: boy's room.

The similarity between the boys room and a military barracks is striking to me. They were able to build a HUGE room for all the boys, but not give them walls/partitions/ect for privacy? Also, is it just me or does it not look like they have any personal belongings? Maybe they're stored under the bed.

Maybe it was laundry day, or maybe there really are no pillows or bedspreads, or maybe they are put away every day? Still, it is weird to look at.

I don't think the similarity to the military is entirely coincidental. There would be no way to have an extremely large family and not be forced to bring order without having rigid and hierarchical control. Having a family that large can't be healthy for the kids.

I think that I remember the boys' beds sometimes not even having sheets on them.

As to not having personal belongings, I do remember the older girls saying that they share everything including clothing, hair bows and jewelry.

[quiverofdoubt]

In their second book M talks about the kids each having a "treasure box" of things that just belong to them. Somewhere she also talked about the older kids getting lockers, because they couldn't keep the little kids out of their stuff otherwise, and wanted somewhere to keep their private belongings. I think the older girls keep unmentionables (bras and the like) in their nightstands so the littles don't get defrauded. But that last bit could be conjecture.

On the bedtime routine (i'm too lazy to go hunting for quotes): I think it could easily all be a fabrication for the show, or at least a gross exaggeration. I do believe there is a lot of bible reading, or at least used to be years ago. Less so now maybe, or only for the cameras.

I've never seen much evidence of books outside of the bible, wisdom booklets, a few phonics/math workbooks and maybe 2/3 gothard approved books for the older kids. And I bet those kids have never stepped foot into a real library before, except maybe to do a performance somewhere. How sad...

[SassyPants]

In their second book M talks about the kids each having a "treasure box" of things that just belong to them. Somewhere she also talked about the older kids getting lockers, because they couldn't keep the little kids out of their stuff otherwise, and wanted somewhere to keep their private belongings. I think the older girls keep unmentionables (bras and the like) in their nightstands so the littles don't get defrauded. But that last bit could be conjecture.

On the bedtime routine (i'm too lazy to go hunting for quotes): I think it could easily all be a fabrication for the show, or at least a gross exaggeration. I do believe there is a lot of bible reading, or at least used to be years ago. Less so now maybe, or only for the cameras.

I've never seen much evidence of books outside of the bible, wisdom booklets, a few phonics/math workbooks and maybe 2/3 gothard approved books for the older kids. And I bet those kids have never stepped foot into a real library before, except maybe to do a performance somewhere. How sad...

I remember seeing a child entering a bank of lockers in the lower level of the home. Who wants their personal stuff or treasures stored on a floor separate from their room?

JC, that house was more like an orphanage than a home.

[imokit]

The Huffington post has an amusing video:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/3 ... 78998.html

[skulduggery]

I think, if I were to write about the harms of fundamental beliefs, it would be how it impacts society in a negative way. Plus, sharing some of my own experiences has been difficult. Telling people that your father would lock you in a dark room to control your behavior as a toddler can bring the response like "oh they aren't all like that" or not seeing how stuff like blanket training has the potential to produce the same psychological issues.

Part of the reason fundamentalism is so bad is precisely because I thought the Duggars were different and as such I gave them the benefit of the doubt. That was a major mistake on my part but it is also the result of the isolation fundamentalist beliefs can have on a child growing up. You think what happens to you is merely an isolated incident, or that it's not part of a larger pattern. The sense of presuming that others can share and understand your experiences is completely stripped and replaced with internalizing the abuser's mentality of "if it happened to you, you must have deserved it."

The funny thing about fundamentalists is that they believe that they are teaching their children character and responsibility, when in reality by isolating their children from the world they are teaching them that they are not part of a broader community that is worth respecting, nor are they teaching them to respect the rights of others who don't share their beliefs. The beliefs are antisocial in a way, which makes secular politics a necessary requirement to live in a free society. By controlling their kids every movement, it teaches the kid that the only way to relate with people is through control, or focusing on who is controlling who. There's no acknowledgement that human interaction can be much more diverse, meaningful and enjoyable.

Fundamentalism or even strong religiosity is destructive to people's ability to empathize with one another, which can't be good for society as a whole. To have a high quality of life, people must be willing to give each other the space they need and respect the rights of others. Fundamentalism is antithetical to that, and is full of justification for treating other people as lesser inferiors. The irony is that they do it in Jesus' name, when Jesus himself said that all people are equal, Jew and Gentile, male and female, free or bond. Equality isn't just a belief, it's an action, and you act upon that belief by respecting boundaries and agreeing to refrain from certain behaviors that are detrimental to others and in turn the rest of society at large. Only then do people learn the value of respect, compassion, and empathy. Take that away and all they know is brute force and control.

That's one reason why when I see comments on the Internet that go "oh, if feminists really cared about women, they'd fight Boko Haram." Well where did Boko Haram come from if not fundamentalist beliefs? Feminists are fighting fundamentalist violence right here before America by standing up for the rights of women and girls and yes that matters. A lot of people don't know that by comparing America to Iran to say how good women here have it, they invisibilize women who are from fundamentalist backgrounds and don't realize that at one time Iran had secular leadership but lost the progress they made by instituting the authority of the Ayatollah. What kind of country do you want to live in? That is the real question here, because religious freedom shouldn't involve taking away the rights of others who aren't part of your belief system. Then it's not freedom you stand for, it's religious authority and regressive politics.