Everything Josh Duggar, Child Molester - Part 7

[hapamama]

You're lucky there. I live in a right-to-work state, and after a supervisor searched my cubicle for voodoo dolls of her, I stopped advertising that I was Pagan at work. I discuss neither religion or politics around the water cooler now. And when my boss asked us to start using Facebook to network with our clients, I made a specific list for discussing any type of touchy subject so only my friends would see my weird opinions, not my clients.

My aunt is an academic coach at a private Christian university in Southern California. She has separate personal and professional facebook accounts. She's Christian, but not a fundie. Seems like a good idea to keep the personal and professional separate when possible.

[quiverofdoubt]

I think, if I were to write about the harms of fundamental beliefs, it would be how it impacts society in a negative way. Plus, sharing some of my own experiences has been difficult. Telling people that your father would lock you in a dark room to control your behavior as a toddler can bring the response like "oh they aren't all like that" or not seeing how stuff like blanket training has the potential to produce the same psychological issues.

Part of the reason fundamentalism is so bad is precisely because I thought the Duggars were different and as such I gave them the benefit of the doubt. That was a major mistake on my part but it is also the result of the isolation fundamentalist beliefs can have on a child growing up. You think what happens to you is merely an isolated incident, or that it's not part of a larger pattern. The sense of presuming that others can share and understand your experiences is completely stripped and replaced with internalizing the abuser's mentality of "if it happened to you, you must have deserved it."

The funny thing about fundamentalists is that they believe that they are teaching their children character and responsibility, when in reality by isolating their children from the world they are teaching them that they are not part of a broader community that is worth respecting, nor are they teaching them to respect the rights of others who don't share their beliefs. The beliefs are antisocial in a way, which makes secular politics a necessary requirement to live in a free society. By controlling their kids every movement, it teaches the kid that the only way to relate with people is through control, or focusing on who is controlling who. There's no acknowledgement that human interaction can be much more diverse, meaningful and enjoyable.

Fundamentalism or even strong religiosity is destructive to people's ability to empathize with one another, which can't be good for society as a whole. To have a high quality of life, people must be willing to give each other the space they need and respect the rights of others. Fundamentalism is antithetical to that, and is full of justification for treating other people as lesser inferiors. The irony is that they do it in Jesus' name, when Jesus himself said that all people are equal, Jew and Gentile, male and female, free or bond. Equality isn't just a belief, it's an action, and you act upon that belief by respecting boundaries and agreeing to refrain from certain behaviors that are detrimental to others and in turn the rest of society at large. Only then do people learn the value of respect, compassion, and empathy. Take that away and all they know is brute force and control.

That's one reason why when I see comments on the Internet that go "oh, if feminists really cared about women, they'd fight Boko Haram." Well where did Boko Haram come from if not fundamentalist beliefs? Feminists are fighting fundamentalist violence right here before America by standing up for the rights of women and girls and yes that matters. A lot of people don't know that by comparing America to Iran to say how good women here have it, they invisibilize women who are from fundamentalist backgrounds and don't realize that at one time Iran had secular leadership but lost the progress they made by instituting the authority of the Ayatollah. What kind of country do you want to live in? That is the real question here, because religious freedom shouldn't involve taking away the rights of others who aren't part of your belief system. Then it's not freedom you stand for, it's religious authority and regressive politics.

Thank you. You put this better than I ever could have.

[DrPusey]

An op-ed kind of column from a local paper:

The Duggars' troubles are the latest cautionary tale of faith, celebrity culture intertwining

[apandaaries]

That's one reason why when I see comments on the Internet that go "oh, if feminists really cared about women, they'd fight Boko Haram." Well where did Boko Haram come from if not fundamentalist beliefs? Feminists are fighting fundamentalist violence right here before America by standing up for the rights of women and girls and yes that matters. A lot of people don't know that by comparing America to Iran to say how good women here have it, they invisibilize women who are from fundamentalist backgrounds and don't realize that at one time Iran had secular leadership but lost the progress they made by instituting the authority of the Ayatollah. What kind of country do you want to live in? That is the real question here, because religious freedom shouldn't involve taking away the rights of others who aren't part of your belief system. Then it's not freedom you stand for, it's religious authority and regressive politics.

This is an excellent point. There are some pix here of Aghanistan in the 1950s and 1960s; it's amazing to see: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =127914602

[link unbroken b/c NPR]

[TexasGma]

Found a video showing a more recent tour of the boys room by Jedidiah. I googled Duggar boys room and it came up on the TLC website. It would have been done after Josh moved out. They all have blankets/sleeping bags now but only a couple of the beds have pillows.

I found it funny that the girls had blankets in the older pics and the boys didn't. I guess they don't think we girls "experiment" ;) 8-)

[skulduggery]

Thank you. You put this better than I ever could have.

Your welcome, anytime!

[quiverofdoubt]

I found it funny that the girls had blankets in the older pics and the boys didn't. I guess they don't think we girls "experiment" ;) 8-)

These are fundie girls. They don't have a sex drive, lust, or any interest in that stuff. They are simply objects for future husbands. It means the girls are under much less scrutiny, maybe they were lucky enough to have space for experimentation. One 8 year old girl, in the church, was publicly shamed for experimenting. Around the same years all this other stuff was happening. Hopefully other girls were lucky enough to get away with it.

[LongDogMom]

The first was becoming a parent. I was shocked and surprised when my newborn baby cried and my instinct was to pick him up and comfort him. It was a real eye-opener for me to realise that that it is and automatic response to comfort your baby. This made me see my parents’ way of parenting me did not fit with my experience as a parent. I was 25 when I first considered the possibility that my parents were not good parents.

The next event was earth shattering. I was 35. I was chatting over coffee with a friend and described some minor incident in my childhood. It was no big deal to me at all, and was simply to illustrate something or other.

My friend was first appalled by my anecdote, then outraged by what I saw as a perfectly normal event. She had to explain to me why she was outraged. Finally, her outrage let me see that I had been severely and systematically abused as a child. I connected this realisation with this feeling I had always had, but had never understood. Many times as a child I was outraged by what was happening, but I was never allowed to express this or understand why I was outraged. I was never given a name to the feeling (such as I was given a name for the feeling that was ‘hungry’, for example. I was totally invisible, treated as an object rather than human being, and I thought this was normal.

My friend’s outrage on my behalf opened up my eyes that a) I had basic human rights b) no human being should be treated like that, c) I did not deserve any of this and d) It is normal to feel outraged.

As a result of my experience, I think that the publicity of Josh’s molestation of his sisters is not necessarily a totally negative thing in the long run (although I agree that their lack of control over the abuse going public reinforces that they have no rights and no say about anything that happens to them, but even this issue uses concepts (like personal agency) that they have no knowledge of).

My impression is the Duggar survivors have never been allowed become aware of their normal and justifiable feelings of outrage at the many injustices they have endured. e.g. Jana being made to give her prized possession to Jessa because Jessa was tormenting her (WTF!!!). Ditto for the girls having to forgive Josh for molesting them and then carrying the shame that THEY are impure, the most despicable thing in their world. Note also Michelle’s comment about not telling her children she was proud of them when Jill gave birth. These girls have been trained to believe that they are nothing but hymens before marriage and uteruses after marriage. Their job is to stay compliant and sweet until the day they official become a uterus.

I think that later on down the track, when these girls see the outrage expressed in the many public forums (outside and inside FJ), this will allow them to connect the dots their life of shaming neglect and their as yet unidentified emotions that they were denied and punished for experiencing.

Having another person demonstrate genuine outrage provided me with what I needed to feel like I was not invisible or simply an object to be used, like a chair. I think the public expressions of outrage will be very healing for the Duggar girls when they (probably accidently) come across examples of this outrage at how they were trained to be objects with no feelings and no human rights. This is a potent potential good that could well emerge from the current public exposure of their appalling life experiences as JB and Michelle’s daughters, even if they only get to see the public outcry years from now. I found genuine and sincere outrage to be extremely healing (much more than years of therapy).

I think this is so true (and I'm so sorry for what you went through!!!!), and I really hope that either through the internet (Jill and Jana can now browse the internet since they aren't under JB's thumb anymore and rigidly restricted to only certain sites and they will be able to see (hopefully) many people outraged over what happened and how they were treated!). I also hope that talking with their spouses and in-laws, who may hold different views about their "fault" in what happened may help open their eyes and alleviate some of the guilt and shame I'm sure they are carrying. And once their eyes are opened, they can hopefully tell Jana and JoyAnna and Jinger what they are learning.

I also hope that, like you, Jill's experience with Israel makes her think a little about how her parents have treated them. I wonder how she'll feel when Israel is 6 months old...which is around the time Michelle usually hands them off. It'll be interesting to see, especially with Derrick's input which I suspect is not as extreme and harsh as her parents. At least that is what I hope!

Sometimes other peoples outrage does open your eyes and that can lead to the breaking of a dam of emotions and feelings that have been suppressed and festering for a long time. I hope the one real positive that comes out of this is THAT and that the girls are talked into going for REAL therapy with a professional who has experience in the area of childhood sexual abuse by a sibling.

[quiverofdoubt]

Are their Headships allowing them online? Do we know exactly how much access they have? I don't really have a read on ben and derrick.

For me having a child opened my eyes to my childhood. Made me see how many failings and abuses went on. I hope Jill looks at this baby and sees that it's HERS and she can raise him how SHE wants, and in fact is duty bound to raise him the best she can. I hope she looks at him and does everything possible to break the cycle of abuse. But first much of the brainwashing will have to be reversed. And realistically I just don't see that happening any time soon.

[Cleopatra7]

I don't think this has been posted yet. A poster on Defamer is claiming that a relative who used to work on the show told her of a humiliating public punishment JB meted out to an unnamed J'boy who was caught masturbating in the bathroom (it's the second story in the article; I think the first one about the public forgiveness/penance thing at the home church has already been mentioned): :mouse-shock:

http://defamer.gawker.com/jim-bobs-puni ... socialflow

If true, this story refutes the idea that the film crew helped moderate JB and Michelle's crazy at the TTH. :(

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Here you go

http://imgur.com/ldZpuO4

http://imgur.com/gp1vgZD

http://imgur.com/PLytCOX

You are awesome-thank you!!

[lostfemme]

I tend to respect Megyn Kelly in that she is smart, well-educated, and has stood up to sexism and some of the sexist rhetoric at her network. So while she's conservative, I sense she does voice her opinions but those opinions just happen to rarely veer from the fox news party line.

But then I saw this:

megynkelly.org/159400/a-christian-defense-of-josh-duggar/

I thought maybe she wrote this before reading about the details? Part of me wants to believe that she will not take any crap from the duggars and not defend a 14 year old assaulting a 5 year old child. But really I just don't know if she'll softball the interview or actually stand up to the Duggars.

Maybe she wrote it to tempt the Duggars into coming on her show? Every journalist knows this interview will be a ratings winner. I don't like Megyn at all. She doesn't give me the feeling she believes a single word she says, whether I sympathize with her opinions or not. Like Anne Coulter, Megyn has found a niche in the conservative men's club, as an underfed blond who shrieks the party line in offensive ways so the big boys will like her. Occassionally, she will try an independent thought but quickly drops it to forge on with propaganda.

She won this interview. That's all that matters, so I suspect she won't press the Duggars too hard or make them explain their stances.

My secret hope is that the Duggars are using Meghan to announce the ending of their show...like it was what they planned the whole time. No, no, the scandal was not part of their decision, gracious no!

[jqlgoblue]

I am going 'way back' to page 34 and lostfemme's comment about male prayer circles and what they are for and what is confessed... as well as the Dolly situation with JB... but what hasn't been said, at least explicitly, is that Gothardism seems like a really good draw for men who are overly sexual in some way (I have a hard time figuring out what exactly to call it, b/c it doesn't necessarily have to be deviant.)

Patriarchy, total control over women, and the requirement that women don't think and submit totally coupled with a just talk to Jesus and you're forgiven anyway mentality has to be just perfect for someone who can't quite control themselves within the realm of what they know to be moral in 'normal life'. It excuses everything.

I think the data -- number of 'higher ups' who have been busted -- likely bears that out. I'd definitely put JB in that category, let alone Josh. It's likely that due to both nature & nurture those two are not the only creepy guys in that household.

I'd love to see (and I think this is what a lot of posters are saying) Gothardism/this type of fundamental Christianity more broadly to be outed, not just the Duggars ... though they do provide the perfect reference point.

Sadly this is NOT what the Megyn Kelly interview will do... but we can hope that more of the audience is appalled than not-appalled (though I'm not holding my breath).

[DuggarCurls]

I went to see Duggar in 2007. The case name and number for a sealed court file fell into our hands, but that and rumors were all we had. I realized Duggar was 18 by then, so the next day I drove to the car lot where he worked as a partner with his grandfather. More than seven years later, I remember what we said. We exchanged greetings and pleasantries, then stepped inside his office where he sat at his desk.

"So what's up?"

"Josh, what is CV 07-921?"

Without a flinch or even an instant of hesitation, Duggar looked right at me and said "You'll have to ask my dad about that." "Josh, you've passed 18. You're a legally responsible adult. You don't have to have your dad answer for you any more." "I know, but you'll have to talk to my dad."

He wasn't visibly nervous in the least. He didn't waiver. He wasn't surprised. He knew what to do.

I thanked him and left. His dad had no comment either when I reached him by telephone that night.

In the end, all we had at the paper was a case number, Josh Duggar's name and no proof of what his lawsuit with the Arkansas Department of Human Services was all about. Unwilling to print rumors even about the worst-kept secret in Springdale, we left it at that.

nwaonline.com/news/2015/may/30/commentary-the-age-of-accountability-20/

[GiggleOfGirls]

Hey everyone, LONG time lurker, first time poster here!

I come from a religious background but nothing as extreme as the Duggars. However, with the recent news, many of my friends have been posting their support for Josh Duggar through social media. Honestly, because I know the truth about Gothard, IBLP, etc etc I'm getting SO sick of seeing their crap. Anyway, I'm not sure where to ask this but are there any informative articles or websites I can link them to that will give them a good summary of the Duggar family nonsense? Everyone just thinks I'm a total crazy person when I tried to explain this stuff to them... Thanks!

This is my favorite general explanatory post so far: http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-duggars-how-fundamentalisms.html

[Cleopatra7]

http://www.nwaonline.com/news/2015/may/ ... bility-20/

Somehow I doubt the situation has changed; Josh is still hiding behind his father. Gothardism creates immature adults who can only see themselves as part of a patriarchal unit and not as autonomous adults.

[DuggarCurls]

The Northwest Arkansas Democrat-Gazette learned the identity of the elder earlier this week. He agreed to an interview Friday but only on the condition his name not be used. The interview was in his home with members of his family present. Jim Bob Duggar declined an interview, but confirmed the identity of the elder by a text message Friday evening. Repeated messages to Joshua Duggar have not been returned.

"I talked to Josh before we went and told him that if he was going to be forgiven, he needed to tell everything, to come clean," the witness said of the 2003 meeting with Hutchens. "Even if you're going to tell 90 percent of it, why leave 10 percent weighing on your conscience and making you feel guilty? What's the use of telling some of it and not all? You should tell it all. He did."

Jim Bob Duggar asked elders of his church for advice. The elders suggested the younger Duggar confess to police but do so after receiving counselling, according to the Springdale Police report. Joshua Duggar was sent to work with a youth program renovating a former Veterans Affairs building in Little Rock for three months. He then went to admit his acts to police after returning in July 2003.

Joshua Duggar, his father and the elder who went with them prayed before they entered a van to go to State Police headquarters, the witness said. There they met Hutchens.

The account Joshua Duggar gave Hutchens included all the details he had given to his parents and church elders about who he touched, every one he touched and exactly how and where on their bodies he touched them, the elder said. The account wasn't explicit in its detail or lurid, but left no room for doubt about exactly what Duggar did, the witness said.

"I was there from the beginning to the end," the witness said.

The corporal took no notes and made no recording, the witness said.

"He didn't even pull out a piece of paper. I remember thinking it was really odd. There was a desk in the room along with some chairs."

The police corporal "told Joshua that since you're from a good family and have a good support group and good friends, he wasn't going to go any further," the witness said. "He did say that if you ever do this again, you'll be taken away or something like that. He definitely didn't raise his voice. He was calm and serious. He repeated that if you ever do this again, you'll be taken away."

Requests for an interview of Hutchens by the Northwest Arkansas Democrat-Gazette were declined by the state Department of Correction. Messages requesting Hutchens contact the paper by telephone weren't returned. In addition, the department announced Thursday it's investigating how the In Touch interview was obtained.

"The Arkansas Department of Correction has denied all media requests for interviews with inmate Joseph Hutchens," a department statement said. "We are very concerned about the means used by In Touch Weekly to obtain access to an inmate in our custody. We are therefore investigating what we and the inmate believe to be a serious case of misrepresentation."

In Touch replied with a statement, also on Thursday:

"The interview with Joseph Hutchens was obtained with the approval of the Arkansas Department of Correction. As In Touch has stated in print, the interview was conducted by a local law firm, and Hutchens was promised nothing in return for his cooperation. Both he and the Arkansas Department of Correction were told that he was being questioned by the law firm for a client that was conducting an investigation. He agreed to be interviewed and have the interview recorded. Hutchens' recollection about what he was told by Jim Bob and Josh Duggar ended up contradicting what Jim Bob told the Springdale police in 2006, according to their report. In Touch will continue to investigate the Duggar situation."

nwaonline.com/news/2015/may/31/duggar-witness-contradicts-corporal-s-c/

[CorruptionInc.]

It's pretty pathetic Smug can't directly admit his actions and requests people to go through his dad.

Man up, write something YOURSELF and put that out there; are you ever going to say you're actually sorry for what you did? Or sorry that the media found out?

[halcionne]

This is my favorite general explanatory post so far: fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-duggars-how-fundamentalisms.html

People keep recommending this blog, but it pinged my RR-dar and I couldn't finish it. :think:

[SassyPants]

JB Duggar deserves every bit of bad karma that comes his way.

The best part about this entire debacle is the exposure of Gothard, Vision Forum, the church elders, the Greens, Mike Huckabee, blanket training. All these people who make and who have made a living telling everyone else how much better their way is, how to live your life a certain way or who have actively work to deny others' rights, all exposed and connected to one other.

Slimy people.

[doggie]

yes it is about time the real duggers are shown on regular news outlets.

[SassyPants]

This is my favorite general explanatory post so far: fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-duggars-how-fundamentalisms.html

Spot on article from a man who was a Gothardite. The Duggar show sells sex.

Virginal Voyerisom- yep.

[Buzzard]

It's pretty pathetic Smug can't directly admit his actions and requests people to go through his dad.

Man up, write something YOURSELF and put that out there; are you ever going to say you're actually sorry for what you did? Or sorry that the media found out?

Josh can't answer questions about his own life but tells others how to live.

Makes total sense!

[halcionne]

Amy has posted several times today on her IG. People are commenting and @'ing J'slaves in the comments. So does that mean the J'slaves are getting alerts to come look at their shitty comments? Not cool.

[LadyBlue]

I haven't seen anyone post this yet. The headline makes it sound like a puff piece, but it's actually quite detailed, including Gothard and blanket training. I love how it links various Republicans to this mess.

http://reverbpress.com/politics/battleg ... ous-right/