Everything Josh Duggar, Child Molester - Part 7

[Luvchild]

I know the average poster here isn't concerned with revenue from the ads this site must make for the owners- but I'd would think the owners of this site would appreciate the newbies and tell the know it alls to be a bit friendlier and welcoming. All you veterans who have like 5000 posts on this board - I bet half of those are for yelling at people whose post you don't like - again it's my opinion and I consider myself a veteran and this post is going to get lost in the pile -so no need to jump on me

[VelociRapture]

A reasonable well thought out response and, thankfully, it seems to be the approach of most old timers. I've lurked here for years but never posted. For years people have been frustrated that the rest of the world doesn't know the evil behind the fundie curtain. I've seen post after post wishing there was a way to let people know what was going on or that the rest of the world would open their eyes. Well, this is it! People are interested, people are trying to find the truth, people are trying to contribute and there are a few posters here who are complete assholes to them. If skipping over a link that is being posted for the fourth time or taking a moment to explain something is the price for getting the information out to the world it would seem to be worth it.

I lurked for about a month or two before joining last fall. I was able to do that though because nothing massive like this had happened (other than Michelle's robocall, Jill's marriage and pregnancy, and Jessa's engagement). I totally get why people want to jump right in though - this is a major story and people are legitimately shocked about it being true. I don't blame people for wanting to learn more or participate in the conversation.

[Flyinthesoup]

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In bio it says he was ordained a baptist minister in 1996. Not sure if that was some state thung or internet or what. I will look.

I did see this, but it doesn't say from where he received it. Thanks for the assistance.

[halcionne]

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In bio it says he was ordained a baptist minister in 1996. Not sure if that was some state thung or internet or what. I will look.

The work/education histories I've seen linked here don't mention any real seminary training, for what it's worth. He's probably a self-proclaimed IFB preacher.

[ApologistsBeDamned]

I did see this, but it doesn't say from where he received it. Thanks for the assistance.

It is my understanding it is a fairly easy process to just go to clerks office either county or state and get a certificate and you are ordained.

You don't even have to have a degree or church backing or anything like that.

[Flyinthesoup]

I hope this is OK to post...if not, please delete:

I just wanted to have a reference in these threads to where it was mentioned about Josh's former girlfriend...it was speculated and mentioned before, but here's one reference....scroll down where it talks about her getting married: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=12337&start=1560

[awkwardblackchick]

Google "million dollar bill gospel tract." If I were good with images, I'd post one for you. There is footage out there (probably not from the show, but I can't recall) of JB and kids asking people, "Do you want a million dollars?" and presenting them with these tracts. I believe in NYC and elsewhere, family pics were given instead of donations to street buskers and such.

JB has no shame whatsoever, it seems.

I think they were mentioned in Jinger's testimony video? She says she passes them out to people.

[happy atheist]

Just a suggestion, I see on a lot of other forums that have this issue, they have a static post at the beginning of each thread summarizing the main points or a "what we know so far" type of post. Here's an example from reddit when the Malaysian Plane was shot down over Ukraine http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/2aykqv/malaysian_plane_going_from_amsterdam_to_kuala/

It doesn't need to be done all the time on every thread, but when a major news story breaks it's a great way to handle all the newbs and influx in traffic. No one on reddit is going to scroll through 8000 comments to see if their question had been asked or answered, and no one expects them too either, so this is a great way to address the main questions everyone keeps asking. It's just too confusing to find anything here. the search function is OK but only if you know precisely what your looking for and then if you didn't search the correct term and ask an already asked question, it seems to upset people.

!	{TEXT1}:
	Says the person who doesn't take the time to read the first post in the thread.

[Flyinthesoup]

It is my understanding it is a fairly easy process to just go to clerks office either county or state and get a certificate and you are ordained.

You don't even have to have a degree or church backing or anything like that.

There must be more to it, if the Southern Baptist are putting their name to it. There are guidelines that have to be followed, at the very least.....I guess I would have expected more from such a large denomination.

If they only have to go to a clerks office, then anyone could consider themselves an "ordained" minister.......are there tax benefits to doing that?

[happy atheist]

See this is the problem. I came on here AFTER these mega threads started. The first thread I went to had 42 pages. I'm sorry but I can't read through 42 ENTIRE pages, though I did read A LOT so I could get a hold on what was being discussed. So when I said I was skimming, it's because before I pose a question I want to make sure It wasn't just asked. So instead of not reading anything, I at least try to skim through 42 PAGES of text to see if it has been mentioned before. There is simply NO WAY I can spend literally hours upon hours to read every thread on this topic, and it's even more ridiculous to say all new members must read every post ever created before they dare comment as to not offend your eyes by having to read a question that has already been asked. I can only imagine how horrible that is for you.

But even that's not the real problem. The MEGA thread said it was now merging with another thread, so I went to that new thread and there were a total of 4 posts, all having to do with Jim Holt. However the conversation was already started in another thread so i didn't really understand what they were talking about. There were other threads linked in the new thread, so i went there hoping to find the talk on Jim Holt, nothing. I couldn't find were the conversation originated. So I asked, because I was already searching for a half an hour.

Additionally this forum is POORLY designed, the navigation is not intuitive. There are SO MANY different threads I don't even know where to start. I know the older members feel a sense of ownership on this forum but you cannot expect new member to read through THOUSANDS of posts to know if something was mentioned already. How many threads/posts do I need to read before it's acceptable to ask a question? There is a reason I'm the 50TH PERSON to ask, the forum is awful to find information. It's easy for you because you've been using it for a while and you get how it works, but I don't think I should be required to spend 5+ hours reading EVERY DAY before I have the right to comment. People asking questions that have already been asked, is a problem on every forum that has ever existed. However the way this site is set up, compounds that problem exponentially

!	{TEXT1}:
	Oh my god I am so pissed off right now I can't even.

[ApologistsBeDamned]

I hope this is OK to post...if not, please delete:

I just wanted to have a reference in these threads to where it was mentioned about Josh's former girlfriend...it was speculated and mentioned before, but here's one reference....scroll down where it talks about her getting married: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=12337&start=1560

video of kiss I was talking about.

youtube.com/watch?v=JZUZ54he0H4

[Rescinded and Mended]

Of course, Jim Bob always wants the automatic gratuity (usually for 6 or more people) removed from his bill and he's a shitty tipper. Of course. As a former waitress who can well imagine the horrors of waiting on a table with that many children, this just solidifies my disgust for this man.

I've heard stories circulated for years about how Jim Bob is cheap/a lousy tipper, so I can believe he would tip very little or leave a Bible tract instead. I can also believe that he would refuse to speak to a woman serving in a restaurant who didn't look the way he felt she should, in accordance with his personal standards. I once had an Evangelical Baptist preacher refuse to speak to me at a funeral for wearing a blouse that was appropriate, but showed a hint of cleavage. And let me tell you, if I knew that was a really good way to keep Evangelical men from harassing and preaching at me, I would have done it a lot sooner. :lol:

About the boy who was caught masturbating, I'm not too sure what to think. I think several of the J-boys were probably caught doing this (most parents either catch their boys or at least suspect them of doing it at some point), but if the boy who was caught had his hands tied together, surely someone on the crew would have called the police, or said something to Jim bob? I just don't know about this one.

I don't believe the story from the woman who claimed Jim Bob compared her to Teena Brandon at all. Something about it just rings false. I think if she truly had an androgynous appearance, Jim Bob might have been more confused and kept his distance, or simply said something cold but polite. Even if he didn't, he's a politician and a salesman who is always trying to sell something to the public. This woman makes it sound like he gave her a thinly veiled threat, and I'm not even convinced he would have a frame of reference for someone like Teena Brandon. Michelle supposedly had trouble figuring out there were gay crew members on the show at the beginning, for heaven's sake. I think Jim Bob would have started evangelizing before threatening her.

[QueerAndPresentDanger]

I was raised in an IFB church in an extremely rural part of the American South.

Preachers, as we called them, were "called by God" to preach. They would pray, consider, maybe bring their feelings to the deacons and preacher of their current church. My grandfather and two uncles were preachers. The process for getting ordained was to find a church/preacher who was willing to ordain you, and then have a small ceremony where you pledged to serve the Lord, etc.... After that, you could either look for your own church, substitute at your home church or other local churches, or become a traveling evangelist. Most preachers had no formal training or education; Baptists in general do not believe a formal education is necessary, but rather rely on Jesus' call to fill a man with the Holy Ghost and make him able to preach the Word of God.

Needless to say, only men are ever called to be preachers.

Remember, too, that the Southern Baptist Convention/Association is far more mainstream and institutionalized than Independent Baptist churches. They're called "Independent" because they don't recognize any authority but the Lord. A SBA minister may very well have more training or oversight than an IFB preacher; I can't speak to that.

[armedandlazy]

I have been trying to search and see if Jim Holt is truly an 'ordained' minister. Back in part 6 of this thread, there were a few different lists for some education information. I'm trying to figure out, where did he get his 'ordination'? Anyone have a clue on this? Sorry, many baptist say they are 'ministers' without what I would see as credible credentials....I know various denominations do it differently. They say he's got his ordination as a Southern Baptist minister. Could someone in the know how help me out with this?

I guess ultimately, I am questioning if he really is 'ordained' or was he granted a minister type title.

TIA

From The Southern Baptist Church Website (Holt's Wiki Page says he's an Ordained Southern Baptist Minister):

What is the procedure for ordination in the SBC?

Actually, there is no standard process or policy concerning ordination in the SBC. In fact, the SBC cannot ordain anyone. The matter of ordination is addressed strictly on a local church level. Every Southern Baptist church is autonomous and decides individually whether or not to ordain, or whether to require ordination of its pastor. When a church senses that God has led a person into pastoral ministry, it is a common practice to have a council (usually of pastors) review his testimony of salvation, his pastoral calling from the Lord, and his qualifications (including theological preparation and scriptural qualifications according to 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:7-9) for pastoral ministry. Based upon that interview the church typically decides whether or not ordination would be appropriate.

Some SBC churches require seminary training from an SBC seminary, while others may not, such a requirement is entirely up to the church.

Of course, every SBC church is free to approach ordination in the manner it deems best.

[justoneoftwo]

Call the police for a boy having his hands tied together? While that is a bad and stupid punishment I would be surprised if it rose to the level of abuse the state would get involved with.

[formergothardite]

["happy atheist"]Says the person who doesn't take the time to read the first post in the thread.

I was wondering if it would make me sound too mean to point out that you had specifically said not to speculate on who the fifth victim is in the very first post and then couple posts later she does exactly that. So clearly putting it at the top of the thread isn't going to help everyone.

I get why it can be overwhelming to read all the threads, but I still don't understand why the search function is confusing if you have a basic idea of what you are looking for and in which forum it would be in. I've had trouble looking up obscure stuff where I wasn't exactly sure what key words to use, what forum it was posted in or when it was posted, but searching for Holt info was pretty damn easy. Even with the obscure stuff I have been pretty successful with a couple of tries.

[ApologistsBeDamned]

There must be more to it, if the Southern Baptist are putting their name to it. There are guidelines that have to be followed, at the very least.....I guess I would have expected more from such a large denomination.

If they only have to go to a clerks office, then anyone could consider themselves an "ordained" minister.......are there tax benefits to doing that?

Yes anyone can be licensed as ordained because that is the constitution. No state shall make a law determining what is a "true" religion.

You don't get tax exempt. Churches who go through the process get the exemption not the preacher of the church.

It does alloow you to perform marriage ceremonies however you would still hVe to get the state marriage license.

[skulduggery]

Posted here per request of Happy Athiest from the People magazine thread:

You know because of the sensitivity of the subject and who the victims are could it be that PEOPLE printed a soft piece to help the victims? In all of this the real tragedy is that the victims involved in this have had to relive their pain so publicly. PEOPLE had a relationship with the Duggars including the victims, they had several spreads that involved the girls, most notably was the recent one about how beautiful the girls (and even Michelle) are. Could this be PEOPLE's way of saying: we stand with or for the girls'? I would like to think that is the reason why they took it upon themselves to be so soft relates to the victims. Anything about the Duggar scandal is going to sell a gazillion copies right now, especially a soft piece because they have so many supporters still. So in my opinion the soft piece PEOPLE did was for a purpose and I would like to think it was to help the victims while still lining their own pocketbooks.

I'm not sure how excluding information from a story is somehow "standing with the girls." There was quite literally nothing about the girls in the article except that five underage girls were Josh's victims. The rest focused on Josh, his parents, and their version of events without a shred of critical thinking. Nowhere does People magazine bother to even address the potential affects of having a serial offender live under the same roof as the girls. If People magazine has a relationship with the Duggars, it only strengthens my suspicions that People magazine has deliberately withheld information from their readers.

[grandmadugger]

The work/education histories I've seen linked here don't mention any real seminary training, for what it's worth. He's probably a self-proclaimed IFB preacher.

He claims Southern Baptist so I looked up the rules for them.

Actually, there is no standard process or policy concerning ordination in the SBC. In fact, the SBC cannot ordain anyone. The matter of ordination is addressed strictly on a local church level. Every Southern Baptist church is autonomous and decides individually whether or not to ordain, or whether to require ordination of its pastor. When a church senses that God has led a person into pastoral ministry, it is a common practice to have a council (usually of pastors) review his testimony of salvation, his pastoral calling from the Lord, and his qualifications (including theological preparation and scriptural qualifications according to 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:7-9) for pastoral ministry. Based upon that interview the church typically decides whether or not ordination would be appropriate.

Some SBC churches require seminary training from an SBC seminary, while others may not, such a requirement is entirely up to the church.

Of course, every SBC church is free to approach ordination in the manner it deems best.

If you are a member of an SBC church and sense the Lord may be leading you into ministry, you may want to speak to the pastor and ask for his assistance.

[armedandlazy]

Oh my god I am so pissed off right now I can't even.

I'm sorry I pissed you off. I'm a little pissed off too. I have members of your forum jumping down my back for things that have more to do with how this forum is set up then anything. Don't take the criticism personally. People are basically calling me a jerk because I didn't read through 5000 pre-existing posts, I was defending myself because I'm new here and the welcome I've received so far in asking for help has been really rude and condescending. I don't understand why you are acting this way towards me

[Flyinthesoup]

From The Southern Baptist Church Website (Holt's Wiki Page says he's an Ordained Southern Baptist Minister):

What is the procedure for ordination in the SBC?

Actually, there is no standard process or policy concerning ordination in the SBC. In fact, the SBC cannot ordain anyone. The matter of ordination is addressed strictly on a local church level. Every Southern Baptist church is autonomous and decides individually whether or not to ordain, or whether to require ordination of its pastor. When a church senses that God has led a person into pastoral ministry, it is a common practice to have a council (usually of pastors) review his testimony of salvation, his pastoral calling from the Lord, and his qualifications (including theological preparation and scriptural qualifications according to 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:7-9) for pastoral ministry. Based upon that interview the church typically decides whether or not ordination would be appropriate.

Some SBC churches require seminary training from an SBC seminary, while others may not, such a requirement is entirely up to the church.

Of course, every SBC church is free to approach ordination in the manner it deems best.

Thank you for helping me out. So basically, if you get enough people together, call yourself a 'church', you can have your local home church basically 'call' you ordained. What would be the point of that? Tax breaks? If your running for office, do you get to double dip tax breaks? Just curious.....honestly asking....I don't know the US laws.

How does that hold up with the laws, regarding mandatory reporting? If the 'minister' has never received proper training, how on earth is he going to know about 'mandatory reporting' when the long standing belief has been, 'confidentiality' among minister and client? Good gravy......this stinks!

[nelliebelle1197]

I'm not going to step too far into this fire, but I would like to nominate "calm your tits" as the salve for those burned by fiery posts.

And OKTBT, I really like your new avatar (in honor of Ireland, perhaps?). That canned chicken was the stuff of nightmares.

The canned chicken is gone so I think OKTBTK no longer HATES me. But dear god and goddess, don't let the egg pooping carcass return!

[ApologistsBeDamned]

Jim Holt officiated his own daughter's wedding in 2012.

So we know he had that power at least in 2012.

[halcionne]

I like being helpful and I'm pretty good with the search tool. I'm also on here like twelve hours a day. Anyone who wants to can pm me with questions. I read most threads here, not so much Lori Anderson Alexander because she pisses me off in a way I don't enjoy, whereas most of the fundies here piss me off in a way I do enjoy. :x

I'm so unfamiliar with Lori that I got her name wrong, lol

[formergothardite]

I'm sorry I pissed you off. I'm a little pissed off too. I have members of your forum jumping down my back for things that have more to do with how this forum is set up then anything. Don't take the criticism personally. People are basically calling me a jerk because I didn't read through 5000 pre-existing posts, I was defending myself because I'm new here and the welcome I've received so far in asking for help has been really rude and condescending. I don't understand why you are acting this way towards me

You didn't have to read 5000 post, you could have taken a few minutes, used the advanced search and gotten all the Holt info. You also could have read the first post of this thread and seen that speculating about who the fifth victim is is not allowed.

I honestly don't mind helping people find info and it doesn't really bother me if people ask for info, but violating rules that are clearly posted at the top of the thread and then acting like the forum has a problem for not posting stuff at the top of the threads is annoying as hell to me.