Baby Meredith is here - Anna Duggar baby watch

[from the bible belt]

What the fuck, FJ. I just had to skip over half of this thread, because I'd rather not read a bunch of pointless bickering.

Guess what? I actually AM qualified to make mental health diagnoses. I have an MS in it. I've spent 2 years and about 3200 hours as a psychotherapist, and am preparing to take my licensing exam in a couple months. Know what I'm not going to do? DIAGNOSE SOMEONE OVER THE INTERNET. You know why? BECAUSE I HAVE NOT INTERVIEWED JOSH, OR LOOKED AT HIS CASE FILE, OR DISCUSSED HIS BEHAVIOR/SYMPTOMS WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW IF HE MEETS CLINICAL DEFINITION OF PEDOPHILIA FROM THAT POLICE REPORT. AND, WHETHER HE DOES OR NOT, HE DID SOMETHING HARMFUL AND ILLEGAL. DIAGNOSIS =/= TO HIS ILLEGAL ACTIONS.

The only, and I do mean ONLY relevance of whether he is a pedophile, is whether he continues to offend. Yes, we can look at statistical likelihoods, but it is MORE important to look at his OWN pattern of behavior. I am not going to cut and paste the symptoms from the DSM, nor any scholarly articles, nor any WIKI pages. I am not even going to weigh with my educated opinion.

- Medication is helpful. Most of my clients take meds. My brother takes meds. My father takes meds. I TAKE MEDS FOR BIPOLAR DISORDER, AND, BY THE GRACE OF CYMBALTA AND SEROQUEL, HAVE HAD NEITHER A HYPOMANIC EPISODE NOR A DEPRESSIVE ONE SINCE I STARTED TREATMENT. YAY, MEDS!!! If meds are warranted, and are at their proper dosage, they can SAVE LIVES. They can also be a temporary fix or "crutch" for someone undergoing a great deal of grief or stress. So wtf, talking about it like it's the mark of who is the sickest. No.

- I am biased, but therapy helps everyone, diagnosis or no. Everyone. You do not have to be in the depths of psychosis or despair to "need" therapy. It does not mean you're sick.

- TREATMENT IS NOT A 100%, SURE-FIRE CURE-ALL. AND I AM ESPECIALLY TIRED OF IT BEING VIEWED PUNITIVELY BY THE COURT SYSTEM, AS IN "He has to do 30 weeks of anger management, at a cost of $2500, as part of his sentence." IT IS MEANT TO HELP. IT DOESN'T ALWAYS. Too many factors here to go into.

Some speculation is perfectly valid - do we think Josh is getting treatment? Do we think he might reoffend with his own children? Okay. But making wild generalizations, thinking you can diagnose someone from limited data, and taking all this personally over 30 pages? Ugh. Let it go.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Don't, just don't, you don't know. I am a rn with a oncology degree and a research degree, you don't know an can't know. I am not even going there, I am not allowed to diagnose and that is because i don't have the knowledge. Doctors are, not the rest of the world

[Rachel333]

So this has nothing to do with Josh, but

Pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children, generally age 11 years or younger.

So what does it make someone who is primarily attracted to adults but is also attracted to children and is interested in acting on that attraction?

And poor Meredith, having her birth announcement turn into a discussion of whether her father is a pedophile or not. I feel so bad for those kids. I hope they have no idea what's going on right now.

[HarleyQuinn]

To say that Josh molested his 5 year old sister when he was 14/15 because he didn't have any "outlets" for his sexuality is beyond bizarre to me. Potayto/Potahto whether you think he is a pedophile, a molester or simply a restricted Fundie with no girlfriend to explore, in my opinion, his explorations of his younger sisters mark him as disturbed and in need of counseling, then and now. Anna and her family are idiots for going through with the engagement and marriage, although to be fair, Anna's father has probably seen and dealt with everything as a prison chaplain.

It is, and it's a bad example. Not having an outlet isn't an excuse. Since he was sneaking around molesting siblings, he could've snuck around and masturbated too. But he chose to prey on children.

I'm not sure why people are getting so worked up over calling him a pedophile either. Yes, it's a medical diagnosis but it's not like it's damaging his reputation any further referring to him as such. (Not that anyone here gives a fuck about that) Michelle's been called a lot of things. Bipolar, mentally ill, etc, are people up in arms over others diagnosing her? Or when people insinuate that Jinger has an eating disorder? Josh is an asshole. Who cares if people label him a pedo for touching children? Pointing out the "under 16" part of it just reminds me of Jim Boob.

I can understand how assuming he might harm his own daughters is dangerous, but he didn't get professional help. I see why many have those concerns.

[VelociRapture]

So this has nothing to do with Josh, but

So what does it make someone who is primarily attracted to adults but is also attracted to children and is interested in acting on that attraction?

And poor Meredith, having her birth announcement turn into a discussion of whether her father is a pedophile or not. I feel so bad for those kids. I hope they have no idea what's going on right now.

Well, I can pretty much guarantee that Meredith doesn't know the specifics - she was born yesterday (alright, it was actually three days ago).

I can't answer your question because I don't have the medical training necessary.

As for poor Meredith - I do feel for the kid and for the fact that this is all being discussed on her birth thread. Anything related to Josh Duggar is going to wind up discussing the molestations though, at least for the foreseeable future.

I wish this little nugget a lot of strength, spunk, and courage. I wish her true happiness and health as well.

[SassyPants]

To say that Josh molested his 5 year old sister when he was 14/15 because he didn't have any "outlets" for his sexuality is beyond bizarre to me. Potayto/Potahto whether you think he is a pedophile, a molester or simply a restricted Fundie with no girlfriend to explore, in my opinion, his explorations of his younger sisters mark him as disturbed and in need of counseling, then and now. Anna and her family are idiots for going through with the engagement and marriage, although to be fair, Anna's father has probably seen and dealt with everything as a prison chaplain.

This is exactly what came to my mind as well.

I have to say that, FJ never disappoints in terms of someone making a comment and a bazillion other members jumping that comment to make comments that hold no more validity than the original comment.

I guess it never gets old for some.

SSDD.

As far as I can tell:

Josh molested 5 (known) people

Josh admitted it.

JB, M and others covered it up.

No matter the "label" assigned, it ain't pretty.

[nokidsmom]

I feel for Meredith also, that she enters the world under such a cloud. It's bad enough without all the speculation about what her dad is or isn't. Frankly, I feel for all the M'kids. Even when this dies down and sooner or later it will, it's still going to be out there for them to find out about and have questions. Internet is indeed forever.

[VelociRapture]

It is, and it's a bad example. Not having an outlet isn't an excuse. Since he was sneaking around molesting siblings, he could've snuck around and masturbated too. But he chose to prey on children.

I'm not sure why people are getting so worked up over calling him a pedophile either. Yes, it's a medical diagnosis but it's not like it's damaging his reputation any further referring to him as such. (Not that anyone here gives a fuck about that) Michelle's been called a lot of things. Bipolar, mentally ill, etc, are people up in arms over others diagnosing her? Or when people insinuate that Jinger has an eating disorder? Josh is an asshole. Who cares if people label him a pedo for touching children? Pointing out the "under 16" part of it just reminds me of Jim Boob.

I can understand how assuming he might harm his own daughters is dangerous, but he didn't get professional help. I see why many have those concerns.

A few points:

1. Yes, I do have a problem with people claiming Michelle is bi-polar or Jinger must have an eating disorder. And yes, if I saw people saying that I would call them out for it just like I call people out for claiming Josh is a pedophile based off the very limited information we have. All three of the things listed require a medical diagnosis to be made, something which can't be done by a bunch of random people on an internet forum who have never met these people and likely never will. Speculating endlessly on Jinger's supposed eating disorder or how Michelle simply must be Bi-Polar does nothing to help and, at times, the conversation actually winds up feeding into stereotypes about these serious medical conditions.

2. We point out his age at the time because that is the age given by the DSM 5 as a reference point when attempting to diagnose someone with pedophilia. Its not an end all be all in the matter, but it gives a starting point for the Therapist to work with (and I would guess they go with 16 simply because most kids are done with puberty around that age).

3. We care that people are labeling him as a pedophile because there IS a difference between child molestation and pedophilia - at least when it comes to what drives someone to do it. Simply slapping him with the pedophile label and claiming he is absolutely a risk to all children everywhere - including his daughters - is wrong because we have no way of knowing whether that is or is not true. This may be my biggest issue in this debate - what we know he did is bad enough without posters claiming that he is 100% guaranteed to harm his own children (not saying anyone here has said that, but it has been claimed numerous times on this site since the news broke).

4. I see as well why people have concerns; I truly do and I share those concerns at times - but, again, slapping him with the label does nothing to help. You can still express your concerns, wonder what sort of precautions they may be taking, and wonder whether Josh may re-offend without automatically saying he is a pedophile.

Hopefully that helps explain my personal view about it a bit.

And now, back to Meredith. Who else actually likes her name? I think Meredith Grace Duggar actually flows rather nicely together.

[LovelyLuna]

Gosh Mer looks so much like Mack.

I wasn’t going to post this but I decided that since I am not an eloquent writer it is the best way I can contribute to the discussion. I take anti depressants, an antipsychotic( Seroquel) and Xanax. I also use medical Marijuana and go to therapy. With out these medications I would no be able to get out of bed (or eat), let alone function. My own mother has told me to stop taking the meds and stop going to the doctor because of Mental illness prejudice. even worse is the perception among doctors and professionals when they see my medication list.

therapy and medication have change my life is such a way that if I were not disabled and didn’t panic in crowds, I would go on a speaking tour about the benefit of proper metal health care. I can laugh, have hobbies, leave my house, be a partner to my spouse and so much more because of it. If anyone has questions I would be happy to try and answer them.

Thank you to everyone who has gone to bat for Mental illness prejudice in this thread, you are a ray of sunlight on a storm of hate and ignorance.

TL/DR

I take anti depressants and I am better for it. Just think before you speak. Thats all I ask.

[halcionne]

I actually think that he does need treatment in the here and now. There is no shame for him to go through a program, and it would be an act of good faith on his part. It would show that he is committed to being healthy.

Even if Josh had acted once and never again, I would believe that he needs to go through some treatment, especially as he did not have adequate treatment at the time of the offences. It is fair to say that the extreme stress of the entire world becoming aware of his actions, the cancellation of the show, and the extreme backlash from the public are all weighing heavily upon him. I would imagine that he is feeling guilt about his actions (unless he is a sociopath) and going through a program would help him out there, as well.

The rest of the family could benefit from further counselling and analysis, as well. For example, Jill and Jessa are probably confused about why a bunch of people started criticizing them after their Fox interview. If they are feeling re-victimized, as they say they are, they would benefit from some attention to these feelings.

Treatment for mental health issues are always a good thing and it is unfortunate that some people feel uncomfortable with getting help.

It will never happen, but I love the idea of a Duggar going through rehab. I will probably spend all day imagining scenarios in which Josh repeatedly has his mind blown in group therapy with a bunch of non-QF people who've had wildly different life experiences than his own. What a way to discover how fucked up your life has been. :clap:

[Rachel333]

Well, I can pretty much guarantee that Meredith doesn't know the specifics - she was born yesterday (alright, it was actually three days ago).

I can't answer your question because I don't have the medical training necessary.

As for poor Meredith - I do feel for the kid and for the fact that this is all being discussed on her birth thread. Anything related to Josh Duggar is going to wind up discussing the molestations though, at least for the foreseeable future.

I wish this little nugget a lot of strength, spunk, and courage. I wish her true happiness and health as well.

Haha yeah, Meredith is blissfully ignorant of everything going on right now. I was thinking more of Mackynzie and wondering what she knows, since she's old enough to know something's up.

[tulip]

And now, back to Meredith. Who else actually likes her name? I think Meredith Grace Duggar actually flows rather nicely together.

I think it flows nicely as well, and I like that it's a name she can grow into. Have you ever met a 60 or 70 year old named Mackynzie? :evil-eye:

I'm just so surprised they picked that name. I thought for sure the second syllable would be a hard k sound. I wonder if they notice that they did that on the first 3 but not the fourth.

And to the person who mentioned the possibility of the fifth baby having a different letter... I know they mentioned that, but I can't see them actually doing it. Sure, they can want 4 more kids and plan for 4 more, but they don't know that that will actually happen. Anna said that 5 kids was "a good start," but her time between babies has only increased, and I'm not sure if the recent scandal/show cancellation will affect their family planning ideas. Probably not, but maybe.

[OodOnTheLoo]

It will never happen, but I love the idea of a Duggar going through rehab. I will probably spend all day imagining scenarios in which Josh repeatedly has his mind blown in group therapy with a bunch of non-QF people who've had wildly different life experiences than his own. What a way to discover how fucked up your life has been. :clap:

Dr Drew, get on this! They may be desperate enough for the money and I would love to see Jim Bob and Bob Forrest go head to head.

And Shelley, with Michelle....

OMG...even the names are lining up.

[zebra #13]

It is, and it's a bad example. Not having an outlet isn't an excuse. Since he was sneaking around molesting siblings, he could've snuck around and masturbated too. But he chose to prey on children.

I'm not sure why people are getting so worked up over calling him a pedophile either. Yes, it's a medical diagnosis but it's not like it's damaging his reputation any further referring to him as such. (Not that anyone here gives a fuck about that) Michelle's been called a lot of things. Bipolar, mentally ill, etc, are people up in arms over others diagnosing her? Or when people insinuate that Jinger has an eating disorder? Josh is an asshole. Who cares if people label him a pedo for touching children? Pointing out the "under 16" part of it just reminds me of Jim Boob.

I can understand how assuming he might harm his own daughters is dangerous, but he didn't get professional help. I see why many have those concerns.

but he didn't get professional help

You know, I'm really curious WHY this particular lie is so enticing? Yes. The first go, he was sent off to do carpentry. Second go, he got talked to by a pedophile police creep. But after the Oprah smack down, and DHS being called in, and the notation of "FAMILY IN NEED OF SERVICES" in the police report, DHS AND/OR CPS WERE CALLED IN, THE FAMILY WAS REQUIRED TO REPORT EVERY SIX MONTHS, AND THE GIRLS WERE IN COUNSELING. (Since it was DHS, I'm going assume it was licensed professional counseling, just like J-B, M'chelle, and the girls said.) That was via Alice in 2007. The girls also said, that after that, Josh was counseled, and had to pay for it himself.

After the time of the police report, Josh was NOT in the house, and that has the finger prints of DHS (SOP).

BUT ***

but he didn't get professional help

Does repeating that, as thousands here do, on a regular basis, make one cootie free? Or get free entry to the state fair? Or many orgasms, or what?

And no, I'm not defending him, or the Duggars, or fundies in general. But jeepers peeps, TRUTH *IS* SOMETHING--and it matters!

/rant

[halcionne]

Dr Drew, get on this! They may be desperate enough for the money and I would love to see Jim Bob and Bob Forrest go head to head.

And Shelley, with Michelle....

OMG...even the names are lining up.

Not gonna lie, I would probably watch that. But it would benfefit him more to do it privately and I would still get a big kick imagining what went on there, without ever knowing the reality.

[ClaraOswin]

If Meredith is some day given free access to the internet and Googles herself...it's sad the things that will pop up.

[FundieFarmer]

If Meredith is some day given free access to the internet and Googles herself...it's sad the things that will pop up.

Ditto pretty much all reality TV kids, and children of celebrities. :/

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Ditto pretty much all reality TV kids, and children of celebrities. :/

But, the articles and comments about her birth are very much "amid the scandal a baby is born and there is still a scandal!" I mean, what I'm seeing on here is SO MUCH tamer than what I've seen elsewhere. There are entire articles that start off with her birth and then immediately circle back to all the things he did to his sisters and the timeline of events and the lies his family spoke to cover up his actions. There isn't a single article that doesn't talk about the scandal in some what, and no comment thread that isn't predominantly "get that bastard away from his own child cause he's going to hurt her!"

[zebra #13]

Ditto pretty much all reality TV kids, and children of celebrities. :/

I got on the internets in 2003. Google then, and google now are two different critters. Used to be it was easier to google again than to bookmark, 'cause you always got the same results, in the same order. Somewhere along the line they changed their algorithms, and became, from my point of view, very unreliable. Things disappear. And even the Way Back Machine doesn't save much of what's gone.

A month after my honey died, his google hits (he was an actor) were running near 100,000. I just googled him a minute ago: 2,680. . . . Plenty of stuff falls off the nets. The internets is NOT forever. Sorry folks.

By the time Merry grows up and googles, I doubt she'll find us. I doubt we'll be relevant in the least at that point. So for those who are wasting a lot of time and effort composing deathless prose for the ages, I'd just give it up and go play wit' yer cat. Better use of time.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I got on the internets in 2003. Google then, and google now are two different critters. Used to be it was easier to google again than to bookmark, 'cause you always got the same results, in the same order. Somewhere along the line they changed their algorithms, and became, from my point of view, very unreliable. Things disappear. And even the Way Back Machine doesn't save much of what's gone.

A month after my honey died, his google hits (he was an actor) were running near 100,000. I just googled him a minute ago: 2,680. . . . Plenty of stuff falls off the nets. The internets is NOT forever. Sorry folks.

By the time Merry grows up and googles, I doubt she'll find us. I doubt we'll be relevant in the least at that point. So for those who are wasting a lot of time and effort composing deathless prose for the ages, I'd just give it up and go play wit' yer cat. Better use of time.

Whether it's thousands it's thousand's of websites with her birth announcement or only 100 by the time she is old enough, it wont change the fact that her birth is linked to what her father did before she was even a thought.

[Mama Mia]

but he didn't get professional help

You know, I'm really curious WHY this particular lie is so enticing? Yes. The first go, he was sent off to do carpentry. Second go, he got talked to by a pedophile police creep. But after the Oprah smack down, and DHS being called in, and the notation of "FAMILY IN NEED OF SERVICES" in the police report, DHS AND/OR CPS WERE CALLED IN, THE FAMILY WAS REQUIRED TO REPORT EVERY SIX MONTHS, AND THE GIRLS WERE IN COUNSELING. (Since it was DHS, I'm going assume it was licensed professional counseling, just like J-B, M'chelle, and the girls said.) That was via Alice in 2007. The girls also said, that after that, Josh was counseled, and had to pay for it himself.

After the time of the police report, Josh was NOT in the house, and that has the finger prints of DHS (SOP).

BUT ***

but he didn't get professional help

Does repeating that, as thousands here do, on a regular basis, make one cootie free? Or get free entry to the state fair? Or many orgasms, or what?

And no, I'm not defending him, or the Duggars, or fundies in general. But jeepers peeps, TRUTH *IS* SOMETHING--and it matters!

/rant

I don't get it either. He did get some sort of therapy. The girls got therapy. It would have to have been by someone approved by CPS. Yet some people continue to insist there is no way they could possibly have forgiven him, or not be permently traumatized , because, saying so shows they " didn't " have therapy. :? Or something.

[nokidsmom]

Whether it's thousands it's thousand's of websites with her birth announcement or only 100 by the time she is old enough, it wont change the fact that her birth is linked to what her father did before she was even a thought.

Agree that stuff does fall off the internet all the time and as time marches on, information does disappear. I doubt that there will be as much information about what her father did when she's old enough compared to now but there will be enough for her to see. This is major and also the Duggars' efforts to stay in the media spotlight only adds to more reports of what Josh did. In that sense they are not doing him any favors.

[singsingsing]

I'm actually not convinced that Josh and Anna even thought they were being creative or cute when they spelled it 'Mackynzie'. Consider their accent. That's how they pronounce 'Mackenzie'. I remember them saying, "Josh has a cousin with that name and we liked it, but we just decided to spell it a little differently." They were young, sheltered, naive, and spelling it 'Mackynzie' might have seemed more logical to them. The fact that they followed it with 'Michael' and 'Marcus' says a lot, too, although some people will give boys very traditional names and girls trendy/kreatyve names.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I don't get it either. He did get some sort of therapy. The girls got therapy. It would have to have been by someone approved by CPS. Yet some people continue to insist there is no way they could possibly have forgiven him, or not be permently traumatized , because, saying so shows they " didn't " have therapy. :? Or something.

I think the problem is that, outside of the police reports which clearly show them not getting real help, there's been no definite proof that there was actual therapy that didn't involve JttH (or is it JotH? I can never remember), Alert, and other Gothard programs. Hell, I'm not even sure what kinds of therapy CPS requires, or if they even require a certain type or not. Or how long those therapy sessions last. And, none of those children got the therapy they needed until at least 3 years after the last attack. That's a long time to be coping with something, especially if they're being brainwashed during that time.

However, if things are to be believed, Josh did get help at some time because JB said that Josh paid for his own therapy. Because he paid for it himself, I'm going to hazard to guess it happened after he got married (since I doubt that JB was paying Josh for working for him while he lived at home). If that's the case, I doubt it was anything related to Gothard because I dont know of any Gothard approved "therapy sessions" for married adults.

[DeFrauder]

Because it was said that he was going to harm his own children because he's a pedophile. We don't know he's a pedophile, we don't know if he targets children, we don't know if he's still targeting anyone, we don't know a lot of things. Saying he's going to harm his own children based on the fact that he did harm his sisters in the past, especially when saying that his oldest girl is most at risk because of what happened to his youngest victim, is dangerous and uncalled for.

I'm not going to sit here and say that Josh is a victim or any crap like that. He did what he did, and what he did was terrible. But, we have NO evidence to support the idea he's even harming ANYONE, regardless of age, so we shouldn't just state he's a danger to his children as if it's fact.

UMM listen up historical redaction kings.

I have been the brunt of this HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST JOSH IS A PEDO hissy fit and I charge you all with the task of finding a single comment where I said that Josh was targeting his own children. Let me save you some time. You won't find it because I didn't say it.

And really. Is this what the flaming has been about? Nobody better suggest that the sexual assault on 5 different people over a two year period (or more who knows) is evidence that a person may be a pedophile BECAUSE it automatically means he is still on the prowl?

Newsflash: if the butthurt flame gang spent more time educating themselves on what pedophilia is, instead of wasting everyone's time flaming people who said something they didn't agree with, y'all would know that not all pedos have harmed children. But here is the rub: ALL CHILD MOLESTERS HAVE HARMED CHILDREN.

Do you guys realize how stupid it sounds to be screaming out "There is no proof Josh is a pedo!! He is JUST a child molester!!! How DARE you suggest he is a pedo!! He might have a bunch of victims but that don't mean he is a pedo!!!"

Some of you, and you know who you are, are acting like the mean girls at youth group. Shun the sinner! Shun the sinner! God is gonna RAAAAIIIiiin his wrath down on those who do not conform to the inspired word of God as written by the Disciples of Flame!

Well guess what. I belong to a different denomination and I think that Josh's actions indicate that he might be a pedo. Deal with it. I am not recanting. Flame me if you will--I can take it. Just be aware that you look foolish.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I'm actually not convinced that Josh and Anna even thought they were being creative or cute when they spelled it 'Mackynzie'. Consider their accent. That's how they pronounce 'Mackenzie'. I remember them saying, "Josh has a cousin with that name and we liked it, but we just decided to spell it a little differently." They were young, sheltered, naive, and spelling it 'Mackynzie' might have seemed more logical to them. The fact that they followed it with 'Michael' and 'Marcus' says a lot, too, although some people will give boys very traditional names and girls trendy/kreatyve names.

I agree that it probably has a lot to do with their ages at the time she was born. I mean, when I was around that age my favorite name for a girl was Bryleah Shayne and my favorite name for a boy was Shawnathan Rhys. For the last few years (Anna's a year-ish younger than me) my favorite name for a girl has fluctuated between Alexandra Vada and Genevieve Erin, while my favorite name for a boy has consistently been William Patrick (with Zachary Brennan as a close second).