Thoughts on Greek Debt Crisis?

[VelociRapture]

I'm in the States and Finances (especially International) aren't my strong point. Ask me about Henry VIII and I can give you a fucking lecture, but ask me about the Greek debt crisis and I'm at a complete loss!

I do have a few questions and I'm hoping someone can help me understand this whole situation.

1. Why can't there be an agreement where the Greeks pay the debt (including interest) for a certain amount of time and then get shifted into a debt forgiveness type program? I know in the states we have types of programs like that with student loans; the rules are strict and not everyone can qualify, but it would be better than having the Greeks default on the balance completely, right?

2. Going off that idea, we also have an Income-Based Repayment plan for federal student loans here. You start out at lower payments and over time, as you earn more money, those payments get larger. We also have repayment programs that allow you to extend the amount of time you have to pay back the debt, which lowers your monthly payment. Where ideas like that considered at all?

3. Someone mentioned that the current situation started because the Greek people weren't paying their taxes. Someone else explained the back story as to why the Greek people would have the outlook they do towards taxes. Can someone explain how that outlook applies to the current situation? Was there vast corruption in the Greek government and people decided not to pay as a way of protest or did people just get used to not having to pay taxes?

4. Arete, this one is specifically for you - how can the Greek Government go about building trust in their people if the people don't provide the funds to do things like build roads and bridges? (Not being snarky at all, I just want to understand :) )

5. And could someone let me know if there is a good resource out there I can turn to to try and understand the situation better? I'm really curious and want to understand, but I have no clue where to start. Is there a Greek Debt Crisis for Dumb Americans somewhere? :lol:

[nausicaa]

5. And could someone let me know if there is a good resource out there I can turn to to try and understand the situation better? I'm really curious and want to understand, but I have no clue where to start. Is there a Greek Debt Crisis for Dumb Americans somewhere? :lol:

As a fellow dumb American, I think 60 Minutes and CBS news have some good pieces on their websites, both videos and articles. This is pretty good too:

[VelociRapture]

As a fellow dumb American, I think 60 Minutes and CBS news have some good pieces on their websites, both videos and articles. This is pretty good too:

Thanks! I'll watch it when I get home later!

[CallmeChaCha]

This is where I started http://www.theskimm.com/skimm-guides/greek-debt-crisis (news site - sort of).

[Sundaymorning]

I'm in the States and Finances (especially International) aren't my strong point. Ask me about Henry VIII and I can give you a fucking lecture, but ask me about the Greek debt crisis and I'm at a complete loss!

I do have a few questions and I'm hoping someone can help me understand this whole situation.

1. Why can't there be an agreement where the Greeks pay the debt (including interest) for a certain amount of time and then get shifted into a debt forgiveness type program? I know in the states we have types of programs like that with student loans; the rules are strict and not everyone can qualify, but it would be better than having the Greeks default on the balance completely, right?

2. Going off that idea, we also have an Income-Based Repayment plan for federal student loans here. You start out at lower payments and over time, as you earn more money, those payments get larger. We also have repayment programs that allow you to extend the amount of time you have to pay back the debt, which lowers your monthly payment. Where ideas like that considered at all?

3. Someone mentioned that the current situation started because the Greek people weren't paying their taxes. Someone else explained the back story as to why the Greek people would have the outlook they do towards taxes. Can someone explain how that outlook applies to the current situation? Was there vast corruption in the Greek government and people decided not to pay as a way of protest or did people just get used to not having to pay taxes?

4. Arete, this one is specifically for you - how can the Greek Government go about building trust in their people if the people don't provide the funds to do things like build roads and bridges? (Not being snarky at all, I just want to understand :) )

5. And could someone let me know if there is a good resource out there I can turn to to try and understand the situation better? I'm really curious and want to understand, but I have no clue where to start. Is there a Greek Debt Crisis for Dumb Americans somewhere? :lol:

Just a quick answer to some of your questions.

Number 1 and 2: well, they kind of do that now already. For example, the loans from the second financial help programm of the European Financial Stability Facility have to be paid back (theoretically) from 2023-2057, and the interest rates are kept artificially low for Greece, so they pay way less than they would if they would have to get the money for a fair market price.

Of course, everyone and their dog knows by now that Greece won't be able to pay the loans back, the money is lost. However, officially admitting that to the public would cause an uproar among the taxpayers. So in 2012 (when the second programm was launched) they just extended the terms of repayment so much (up until 2057) that is has basically the same effect as giving them a debt cancelation.

[zebra #13]

Been following this blog since I first got on the 'nets in 2003. She's one of the sharper needles in the sewing case. Lotsa live links at the original.

A Global Disaster

Jul 16, 2015

maha

-->

economy, Europe

Paul Krugman is calling the European summit agreement on Greece “the sacking of Athens.†He said, gloomily, “So we have learned that the euro is a Roach Motel — once you go in, you can never get out. And once inside you are at the mercy of those who can pull your financing and crash your banking system unless you toe the line.â€

See also Krugman’s blog posts “Faithocrats,†“The Pause of 2014,†“An Unsustainable Position,†and “History Lessons for Euro Debtors,†which together make about as good a primer on the Greek situation that there is. See also Ivan Krastev, “A Greek Farce.â€

The immediate impact of the Greek agreement is calmer markets, defeated Greeks and skeptical Germans. So should Europe celebrate? Do European leaders expect Greece to be transformed by the accord as Central Europe was transformed in the 1990s? Is it possible that the whole referendum episode — a resounding public “no†followed by Mr. Tsipras’s climb-down with the creditors — could serve not to humiliate Greek voters but instead to re-educate them?

While many in Brussels are hoping that the Greeks have learned, it is more than likely that the new reform package agreed to on Monday will result in further radicalization of certain segments of the European left and the spread of apathy in Greece.

Mr. Tsipras’s leftist populism failed to win Greece a better deal. Instead, the real political winner is most likely to be not the moderate center but the anti-European right. And while European leaders can congratulate themselves on keeping the Union going, the price that Europe will pay for saving Greece economically and losing it politically is the transformation of the Union from a project sustained by hopes and aspirations into one surviving on shared fears and confusion.

Krugman says in “Faithocrats,â€

But let me note, as I have before, that what Europe calls technocrats aren’t people who know how the world works; they’re people who subscribe to the approved fantasies, and never change their minds no matter how badly wrong things go. Despite the overwhelming evidence that austerity has exactly the dire effects basic textbook macro says it will, they cling to belief in the confidence fairy. Despite a striking lack of evidence that “structural reform†delivers much of a growth boost, especially in an economy suffering from a huge output gap, they continue to present structural reform — mainly in the form of disempowering workers — as a sovereign remedy for all ills. Despite a clear record of past failure, they continue to push for asset sales as a supposed answer to debt overhang.

In short, what Europe usually means by a “technocrat†is a Very Serious Person, someone distinguished by his faith in received orthodoxy no matter the evidence.

Structural reform in the form of disempowering workers sounds pretty much like what the Republicans want to impose on us, here. Faith-ocratism will be our doom.

http://www.mahablog.com/2015/07/16/a-global-disaster/

[zebra #13]

Prolly should say, that I'm not unbiased: I love Greece, and adore Greeks -- all from observer status (no claim to Greek blood, alas). Spent two of the loveliest weeks of my life there with a girlfriend, and were treated with respect by the guys, and kindness by the women. Can't tell you how many fathers I saw crouched on the pavement speaking with a little who was having a meltdown, crouched so they'd be face to face as he listened and spoke quietly. The *only* bad part trip was getting past the Alitalia desk at Kennedy, with some over the moon catcalls and propositions, lol!

We weren't with a tour group, and were very dependent on he cooperation of the locals--who were *superb*!! We took a local bus to Delphi for the day, and my travel mate was disappointed to have to settle for a couple of chickens (she was hoping for a goat). Only had bad food once, when she "needed" some American food. Ever had a deep fried hot dog?

She got into a long, erm, "discussion" with a local fella about whether it was fair to alter cats for birth control purposes. She was firmly for; he was firmly against. "That is what a cat is all about; take it away, and you might as well just kill him." This in reference to the restaurant cat in a tiny Plaka eating place.

I came home, started Greek classes, and intended to go back, forever. My kids didn't agree, and I gave up the dream.

[Arete]

I'm in the States and Finances (especially International) aren't my strong point. Ask me about Henry VIII and I can give you a fucking lecture, but ask me about the Greek debt crisis and I'm at a complete loss!

I do have a few questions and I'm hoping someone can help me understand this whole situation.

1. Why can't there be an agreement where the Greeks pay the debt (including interest) for a certain amount of time and then get shifted into a debt forgiveness type program? I know in the states we have types of programs like that with student loans; the rules are strict and not everyone can qualify, but it would be better than having the Greeks default on the balance completely, right?

2. Going off that idea, we also have an Income-Based Repayment plan for federal student loans here. You start out at lower payments and over time, as you earn more money, those payments get larger. We also have repayment programs that allow you to extend the amount of time you have to pay back the debt, which lowers your monthly payment. Where ideas like that considered at all?

3. Someone mentioned that the current situation started because the Greek people weren't paying their taxes. Someone else explained the back story as to why the Greek people would have the outlook they do towards taxes. Can someone explain how that outlook applies to the current situation? Was there vast corruption in the Greek government and people decided not to pay as a way of protest or did people just get used to not having to pay taxes?

4. Arete, this one is specifically for you - how can the Greek Government go about building trust in their people if the people don't provide the funds to do things like build roads and bridges? (Not being snarky at all, I just want to understand :) )

5. And could someone let me know if there is a good resource out there I can turn to to try and understand the situation better? I'm really curious and want to understand, but I have no clue where to start. Is there a Greek Debt Crisis for Dumb Americans somewhere? :lol:

#1 and #2-The debt is impossible for Greece to pay off in full, and this is according to the International Monetary Fund. It would be like me accruing a 5 million dollar debt. With my earning potential, I would never be able to pay it over my lifetime. EU law also does not allow the even partial forgiveness of a member state's debts. This is so other member states do not absorb debts they are not responsible for. The only way out of this would be for Greece to leave the EURO and default. Greeks do not want to leave the EURO. It represents respectability to them, and the only hope that some of the corruption in its various governments can be brought to heel. The EU demands certain laws pass in every member country.

It is not for the people to convince the government to trust them, it is for the government to show itself trustworthy. If you are a Greek Civil Servant, and there are close to 1 million, your taxes are taken out automatically. Yet there is still nothing to show for these taxes. Our infrastructure is built by foreign companies using grants because a wholly Greek project is never completed and money always runs out. Germans built our world class airport after several starts/stops around government corruption. Same for some important roads. It took 50 years to build the Athens subway. Schools have to beg for basic paint jobs. But MPs live in villas and drive BMWs. They buy block votes with the taxes that are collected. Greeks are trying to set up their kids in businesses or educate them abroad for more options. As long as they see that in your face corruption, they have no fucks to give about some Northern European giving them the "pay your full tax " morality lecture. The VAT tax that just got raised? No problem, Greeks will simply not purchase new things and make due. I guarantee they are going to lose money with that hike. Doctors have to be bribed to get you into a surgery on our supposed socialized medicine system. Pay your full taxes or make sure you have enough cash for medical bribes? Government crackdown on docs taking bribes? Greeks are still waiting.

The EURO has the fundie entail problem of trying to service advanced industrial economies in the North and economies that depend on agriculture, tourism, and shipping in the South. It's not going to work without money transfers from richer to poorer states a la US tranfer of money from a state like CA to a state like Mississippi. That proposition is a non starter in the Eu North.

For good articles on the crisis, I highly recommend the British paper The Guardian. Every day query Greece AND the Guardian in the Google bar and you will get an excellent daily analysis in English. The Guardian also has good background articles.

[Arete]

Yes, not paying your full taxes is seen as one of the few viable forms of protest against the entrenched clientelism and cronyism of the state.

Let me know if I didn't answer something, I was trying to cover all the questions.

[Arete]

Latraviata, I got that speech you out up yesterday the night before. Where I then proceeded to fight with various members of my family on 3 different continents whether we should stay or leave the euro. I actually lined up with the family Commies, but they were displeased I was getting to my conclusion via "Christian Democratic wankery". Good times latraviata, good times. ;)

[latraviata]

#1 and #2-The debt is impossible for Greece to pay off in full, and this is according to the International Monetary Fund. It would be like me accruing a 5 million dollar debt. With my earning potential, I would never be able to pay it over my lifetime. EU law also does not allow the even partial forgiveness of a member state's debts. This is so other member states do not absorb debts they are not responsible for. The only way out of this would be for Greece to leave the EURO and default. Greeks do not want to leave the EURO. It represents respectability to them, and the only hope that some of the corruption in its various governments can be brought to heel. The EU demands certain laws pass in every member country.

It is not for the people to convince the government to trust them, it is for the government to show itself trustworthy. If you are a Greek Civil Servant, and there are close to 1 million, your taxes are taken out automatically. Yet there is still nothing to show for these taxes. Our infrastructure is built by foreign companies using grants because a wholly Greek project is never completed and money always runs out. Germans built our world class airport after several starts/stops around government corruption. Same for some important roads. It took 50 years to build the Athens subway. Schools have to beg for basic paint jobs. But MPs live in villas and drive BMWs. They buy block votes with the taxes that are collected. Greeks are trying to set up their kids in businesses or educate them abroad for more options. As long as they see that in your face corruption, they have no fucks to give about some Northern European giving them the "pay your full tax " morality lecture. The VAT tax that just got raised? No problem, Greeks will simply not purchase new things and make due. I guarantee they are going to lose money with that hike. Doctors have to be bribed to get you into a surgery on our supposed socialized medicine system. Pay your full taxes or make sure you have enough cash for medical bribes? Government crackdown on docs taking bribes? Greeks are still waiting.

The EURO has the fundie entail problem of trying to service advanced industrial economies in the North and economies that depend on agriculture, tourism, and shipping in the South. It's not going to work without money transfers from richer to poorer states a la US tranfer of money from a state like CA to a state like Mississippi. That proposition is a non starter in the Eu North.

For good articles on the crisis, I highly recommend the British paper The Guardian. Every day query Greece AND the Guardian in the Google bar and you will get an excellent daily analysis in English. The Guardian also has good background articles.

Every economist with a brain said years ago we have to forgive the debts and in return they (the Greeks) have to reform their economy, corruption, nepotism and the like. It is all at the expense of the average Greek (hard working)people. If we don't forgive their debts it is going to cost us (EE) more and more and nothing changes. Well, they were right!

[Anny Nym]

AreteJo, you now have mentioned several times "money transfers from richer to poorer states a la US".

I hope you don´t think that this would solve any problems, let alone this will ever happen in the EU on big-scale. There IS already a money transfer to poorer EU member on some level and it is already on the brink of its possibilities.

A country could - and does- transfer money from richer to poorer regions, that is usus. But "rich" EU countries can´t and won´t just transfer money to the "poor" countries. Because the rich countries aren´t so rich themselves after all and the imbalance in the EU is so big, this is simply not doable.

The problems with their corruption and their nepotism, the greeks have to solve themselves. Nobody is going to come and do that for them.

The current "solution" the EU is trying to push on the greeks is beyond stupid and cruel and it will lead to nothing good, that is a given.

On the other hand, this doesn´t mean a solution would be that "the EU" should just go and give Greece money. That is not what solidarity means and it wouldn´t have happened anyway.

The only reasonable solution would be a Grexit with debt cut. And it should have happened already years ago.

However, if the situation is really that way, as you said, that the greeks THEMSELVES want to keep the Euro, that they still trust it....!

Well, to be honest, then only God could help them.

[OkToBeTakei]

Prolly should say, that I'm not unbiased: I love Greece, and adore Greeks -- all from observer status (no claim to Greek blood, alas). Spent two of the loveliest weeks of my life there with a girlfriend, and were treated with respect by the guys, and kindness by the women. Can't tell you how many fathers I saw crouched on the pavement speaking with a little who was having a meltdown, crouched so they'd be face to face as he listened and spoke quietly. The *only* bad part trip was getting past the Alitalia desk at Kennedy, with some over the moon catcalls and propositions, lol!

We weren't with a tour group, and were very dependent on he cooperation of the locals--who were *superb*!! We took a local bus to Delphi for the day, and my travel mate was disappointed to have to settle for a couple of chickens (she was hoping for a goat). Only had bad food once, when she "needed" some American food. Ever had a deep fried hot dog?

She got into a long, erm, "discussion" with a local fella about whether it was fair to alter cats for birth control purposes. She was firmly for; he was firmly against. "That is what a cat is all about; take it away, and you might as well just kill him." This in reference to the restaurant cat in a tiny Plaka eating place.

I came home, started Greek classes, and intended to go back, forever. My kids didn't agree, and I gave up the dream.

Amen.

Without sounding like a total twat, I have been lucky in life to travel all over the world on holiday but Greece totally has my heart. You have to go back.

On another note I'm UK therefore also EU we never embraced the currency.

[latraviata]

Amen.

Without sounding like a total twat, I have been lucky in life to travel all over the world on holiday but Greece totally has my heart. You have to go back.

On another note I'm UK therefore also EU we never embraced the currency.

I actually lived, worked and studied in Greece for about 4+ years 1969-1973.

I absolutely love the country, the people, the language, the food and their grand history!

Cuteneurorad currently works in the UK as a locum medical specialist and has several Greek co-workers. He told me, they are everything you told me about the Greeks, they are fantastic people and darn hard workers!

[Arete]

Anny Nym,

I have absolutely no desire to see Greece stay in the EURO, so the Northern Europeans can relax, I for one am not looking for money transfers. But you can kick Greece out tomorrow(and I sincerely wish they would), and the EURO is still going to have the same fundamental problem between its northern and southern economies using the EURO. You cannot share a currency but not a treasury. The richer EU economies transfered 0.23% of its money to all the poorer eu economies last year. In the US, the richer states transfered 5% of its money to poorer states. That is why the dollar can be used in both Alabama and NY. The EURO was set up to rival the dollar. It cannot do that under the current set up. More crisis will come in the future. Even if Greece were out, the scapegoat will become another southern country. If the flaw in the system is not fixed, the EURO will simply become Northern Europe's money. I am talking about the flaw in the system, not getting Greece a money transfer. As for the corruption, Greeks have been jailed, maimed, and killed protesting corruption for much of the 20th and now going into the 21st centuries. Don't buy the German propaganda that we are nothing but lazy tax cheats trying to steal from hard working Northerners.

[Anny Nym]

When the Euro was set up, the EU plutocrats were pretty positive that "the United States of Europe" would only be a few years away.

From this wet dream they are already woken up quite unpleasantly.

We are still own countries not states. That another crisis is just around the corner, I have no doubt about too.

We actually don´t even need to wait for another crisis, because the greek crisis is far from over. It will stay a main topic for the next months and years.

The Euro IS a complete flaw, there will be no fixing any more.

@AreteJo, I think you put too much weight on whatever news source told that alot of northern/middle europeans think that the greeks are lazy tax cheats, who trying to steal from hard working n./m. europeans.

Or that we would believe such ridiculous things.

This is certainly not the case, including the germans.

I, for my part, never heard anyone say that in my country ever nor is that the tone of any newspaper articles. And I consider myself a modest bit informed on how we "roll".

We DO know that the greek people haven´t seen (and won´t see) a single Euro of the last "rescue money".

That this all goes into Bank relief and rescuing, that the plutocrats play a sick and twisted game to desperatly save this sinking, infested barge that is the EU/the Euro.

I just think we can´t stress enough the fact that what the EU-politicans say is not that what the europeans think.

Just today, in my country, they held a parliament vote for a negotiating mandate regarding the "3dr rescue package" for Greece. The complete opposition refused their approval.

And that "Mutti" Merkel had quite a hard day today at the Bundestag, you probably heard yourself already.

As for the corruption, I just think nobody could (or should) tell the greeks how to solve that. They have to find their own way.

[Arete]

Anny, waiters all over the Greek islands are reporting Germans asking them not to identify their ethnicity to cooks. They seem to be genuinely scared their food could be tampered with because of bad feelings. People are trying to assure them that of course they can speak German in public and no one is going to try and hurt them. They are obviously getting the idea we are vengeful animals from the same publications who are so carelessly stereotyping us as lazy profligates. One German tourist in Greece the first time admitted to a reporter she was expecting to see Greeks wasting their every evening and night in tavernas, and she feels bad now that she sees how hard the tourist sector works. This stereotyping is happening in certain rags and some people just assume because hey, we are costing those taxpayers money and that is the truth. I think it is more than legitimate to say Greeks fucked up and require consequences based on the objective evidence. What is not necessary is trying to turn us into monsters.

[Anny Nym]

:(

Okay, so I don´t know what to say here, honestly. This is probably one of those issues then where I have to give it a pass and say "this must be a german thing then".

I would love to know what fucked up news source this is, though.

Bild? Hipster-Bild? RTL2?

German FJers?

[Arete]

Bild has shown up multiple times on Greek news with printed sensationalism. There was also the paper with the full page picture of the Athenian Acropolis with the large printed suggestion to sell it to pay off the loans. That was about a year ago. It was not in Bild, but it came close to causing street violence. A common name for the Acropolis in Greek conversation is "The Holy Rock". Most Greeks reverence it more than churches, and the suggestion of selling it like a commodity generated a LOT of bad feelings. Apparently respect for culture is only for those up to date on their bills. These may be rags but rags have reach and do damage. Think of Fox News as exhibit A.

[Pretzel]

Anny Nym,

I have absolutely no desire to see Greece stay in the EURO, so the Northern Europeans can relax, I for one am not looking for money transfers. But you can kick Greece out tomorrow(and I sincerely wish they would), and the EURO is still going to have the same fundamental problem between its northern and southern economies using the EURO. You cannot share a currency but not a treasury. The richer EU economies transfered 0.23% of its money to all the poorer eu economies last year. In the US, the richer states transfered 5% of its money to poorer states. That is why the dollar can be used in both Alabama and NY. The EURO was set up to rival the dollar. It cannot do that under the current set up. More crisis will come in the future. Even if Greece were out, the scapegoat will become another southern country. If the flaw in the system is not fixed, the EURO will simply become Northern Europe's money. I am talking about the flaw in the system, not getting Greece a money transfer. As for the corruption, Greeks have been jailed, maimed, and killed protesting corruption for much of the 20th and now going into the 21st centuries. Don't buy the German propaganda that we are nothing but lazy tax cheats trying to steal from hard working Northerners.

:roll:

To me it seems like AreteJo is buying a lot of propaganda herself.

I have nothing else to say.

[Arete]

Sure Pretzel, we are just imagining the inflammatory stories put out by certain German rags. None of us could possibly have the ability to read what some of them write in German and show the evidence on TV.

But what can you expect from a bunch of people who are too stupid to know it isn't a good idea to tamper with a tourist's food, amirite?

[Mama Mia]

A big part of the reason that a common currency or a shared government works in the United States is due to a mostly unfortunate ( IMO, depends where you live ) gigantic disparity in voting power between large and small states. A disparity that is becoming more pronounced all the time. Each State has a certain number of elected legislators based on population, with each state getting at least one. But in the senate each state gets two Senators. No matter the population. This was intended as a way to keep power balanced between the states. But as the country has grown and the economy has changed - it has lead to extreme power differentials. The smallest states end up with a gigantic advantage, both in setting policy and in determining where money is spent. And of the five smallest states, only one is liberal, all the rest are extremely conservative.

Here's how big the inbalance is ( from the article below:

The 38 million people who live in the nation’s 22 smallest states, including Wyoming, are represented by 44 senators. The 38 million residents of California are represented by two senator

These ( largely ) conservative small states benefit in many ways financially over the

( largely ) liberal big states.

-- The few needs based federal social safety net services that the United States offers are generally based on having a very, very low income. Conservative small states tend to fight safety net programs. But the cost of living in these states is ( mostly) very low. Workers in the larger states tend to have higher incomes, but the increase in income is nowhere near the difference in prices. It takes much more money to get by. Using federal definitions of income eligibility - influenced by conservative lawmakers - means you have a huge number of people in larger states who don't qualify for basic survival safety nets - because they earn too much. But not enough to get by in their high cost of living state. So these small states may show a higher poverty rate. But it completely misses the mark in showing the picture of who is actually " poor".

-- these small states also benefit from having a large inbalance in federal spending. Big Urban State A might receive twice the funding for new schools as Small Rural State B -- but has a population that's actually ten times as large. Plus will have the additional obstacle of the money not going as far.

Here's a good article:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013 ... .html?_r=0

[OkToBeTakei]

:(

Okay, so I don´t know what to say here, honestly. This is probably one of those issues then where I have to give it a pass and say "this must be a german thing then".

I would love to know what fucked up news source this is, though.

Bild? Hipster-Bild? RTL2?

German FJers?

Bit sensationalist, also a bit patronising really to assume this about every German. Take it with a pinch of salt Anny. I'm fairly sure it's safe to assume that not every German reads and believes this type of 'news' source just as I like to assume that not every American believes 'Fox' news.

[bionicmlle]

I have just returned from holiday in Greece and once I m awake will give you details of my experience. We had a mostly lovely time! Glad we arrived with our own stack of euros and expectations of paying cash.

Be seeing you! Must sleep.....

[samurai_sarah]

:(

Okay, so I don´t know what to say here, honestly. This is probably one of those issues then where I have to give it a pass and say "this must be a german thing then".

I would love to know what fucked up news source this is, though.

Bild? Hipster-Bild? RTL2?

German FJers?

It's a German thing. Of course that is a sweeping generalisation, to be followed by more sweeping generalisations. But I get where AreteJo is coming from. There is a stereotype that everyone whose borders end at the Med is lazy. Mainly among those Germans who think that Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal are just nice backdrops for holiday pictures.