Thoughts on Greek Debt Crisis?

[latraviata]

When the Euro was set up, the EU plutocrats were pretty positive that "the United States of Europe" would only be a few years away.

From this wet dream they are already woken up quite unpleasantly.

We are still own countries not states. That another crisis is just around the corner, I have no doubt about too.

We actually don´t even need to wait for another crisis, because the greek crisis is far from over. It will stay a main topic for the next months and years.

The Euro IS a complete flaw, there will be no fixing any more.

@AreteJo, I think you put too much weight on whatever news source told that alot of northern/middle europeans think that the greeks are lazy tax cheats, who trying to steal from hard working n./m. europeans.

Or that we would believe such ridiculous things.

This is certainly not the case, including the germans.

I, for my part, never heard anyone say that in my country ever nor is that the tone of any newspaper articles. And I consider myself a modest bit informed on how we "roll".

We DO know that the greek people haven´t seen (and won´t see) a single Euro of the last "rescue money".

That this all goes into Bank relief and rescuing, that the plutocrats play a sick and twisted game to desperatly save this sinking, infested barge that is the EU/the Euro.

I just think we can´t stress enough the fact that what the EU-politicans say is not that what the europeans think.

Just today, in my country, they held a parliament vote for a negotiating mandate regarding the "3dr rescue package" for Greece. The complete opposition refused their approval.

And that "Mutti" Merkel had quite a hard day today at the Bundestag, you probably heard yourself already.

As for the corruption, I just think nobody could (or should) tell the greeks how to solve that. They have to find their own way.

A majority of the European people (North and South) aren't exactly keen on the European moster that have been created by EU politicians, au contraire the Dutch voted against it and we got it anyway.

We all know what really happened in Greece and nobody talks about the 'lazy' Greeks because we know better than that. The aversion towards the European Union and Euro is rampant all over Europe, the Euro politicians couldn't care less.

[Anny Nym]

@latraviata

True, they care zero for what their "minions" want. However, one day, it will come down like the UDSSR did.

History tells us already.

@AreteJo

The only stereotype about the Greeks I know of is that you are all "old partisans" ;) .

(This is a huge compliment in Austria, I hope you take it that way too)

[Arete]

Anny Nym-it would definitely be considered a compliment in Greece. :D In fact, some of my relatives were old partisans. In Greece it was considered highly complimentary to a woman to say she kept her home like a German/Austrian. They were considered the gold standard in cleanliness, frugality, and order when it came to running a household. The Greek term is neekokeera, or "mistress of the home".

Latraviata, we didn't even get the chance to vote. One of the former Prime Ministers signed us up, then actually had the stones to explain in a radio address to the nation that because so many of us were still so uncivilized, we couldn't be trusted to vote in our best interests and join the EU. Hand to God, it is a wonder we haven't burned down the Parliament building yet. I guess he did save a lot of effort, because at least some countries had to vote more than once until they gave the right answer.

[Pretzel]

I can assure you that nobody I know thinks the Greek are lazy folks who don't know anything but drinking ouzo after retirement at age 55. Seriously. Not a single person I know would dare say or think such a thing. However, I do know a few people who have had mixed feelings about returning to Greece in summer but have all in all come back happy as usual. Some have encountered the occasional twat that thinks personally attacking Germans on their holiday is the way to go, but they're pretty much the counterpart of the occasional German twat who thinks Greeks are crazy, lazy bums.

There are some tabloids who like to fill their empty days with stereotypical headlines that provoke fear. I don't doubt it's pretty much the same in Greece. Tabloids live off propaganda in either place. I don't doubt most people just want this to be over with for anyone involved and for people to be able to go on with their lives in a healthy manner. :violin:

I don't like the particular German bashing that's taking place in this thread, however, and think it's highly inappropriate at a place like FJ. Usually people promoting stereotypes and particular propaganda against something or someone are called out here, not backed up. :?

ETA: Forgot to add that I actually DO know quite many people who think that the Greek deserve much better than what is currently their government.

[OkToBeTakei]

I can assure you that nobody I know thinks the Greek are lazy folks who don't know anything but drinking ouzo after retirement at age 55. Seriously. Not a single person I know would dare say or think such a thing. However, I do know a few people who have had mixed feelings about returning to Greece in summer but have all in all come back happy as usual. Some have encountered the occasional twat that thinks personally attacking Germans on their holiday is the way to go, but they're pretty much the counterpart of the occasional German twat who thinks Greeks are crazy, lazy bums.

There are some tabloids who like to fill their empty days with stereotypical headlines that provoke fear. I don't doubt it's pretty much the same in Greece. Tabloids live off propaganda in either place. I don't doubt most people just want this to be over with for anyone involved and for people to be able to go on with their lives in a healthy manner. :violin:

I don't like the particular German bashing that's taking place in this thread, however, and think it's highly inappropriate at a place like FJ. Usually people promoting stereotypes and particular propaganda against something or someone are called out here, not backed up. :?

ETA: Forgot to add that I actually DO know quite many people who think that the Greek deserve much better than what is currently their government.

Yes I have to agree I found the tone in regards to German bashing disappointing :(

My thoughts are that cultural divides and history will always cause discord in the EU and that is natural. We are talking about cultures which are centuries old with rich and diverse histories. I have always been quite amazed that economics withstanding the EU has been relatively successful. Obviously there are issues. In the main though, it's quite bizarre that any union worked at all.

I read this really lovely article written by a Greek living in German which really explained things well but damned if I can find it.

I feel for Aretejo and I hope you realise I admire your passion for your cultural home. I think at times it can be harder when you have moved away. I know I have felt this way living away from my country of birth.

I hate stereotypes and I do often feel it is open season on Germany because...WAR. It's not. I don't find that helpful and I know it has caused a generation or generations of Germans to feel uncomfortable in expressing pride in their country. I think people who use that are pretty low. Germany is a country with a rich and well deserved history of strong economy and industrial/work ethic. That should be admired. Greece is without doubt the most influential culture worldwide historically, it is (for me) the most fascinating and rich culture. Don't tell the Italians I said that :lol: (Maybe because they built a wall to keep my folks away :shock: )

I suppose like most common or garden German/European people my only disappointment would be with the Greek politicians ....not exactly an uncommon feeling in any country, mine included.

MY issue and stereotypical cultural tongue in cheek complaint would be.....damn you Germans taking all the sun loungers :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Arete]

I am arguing against a specific German fiscal policy, not going around and calling Germans Nazis or war mongers. It isn't a stereotype to say some of their papers are playing up a caricature of lazy Greeks going after hard working Northern European money. It is a very deliberate attempt to paint Greeks as uniquely aweful so they take all the blame if the monetary union fails. That way fewer people will ask how anyone believed a monetary union that does not automatically transfer from rich to poor is supposed to work. I vote in Greece when I'm there, I'm a property owner, and I file taxes yearly. This isn't some romantic get back to my roots exercise for me. And still, I am talking about policy and action in the present, not what other people did 2 generations in the past. As for Greek politicos most qualify as boils on humanity's collective butt. That is no stereotype. But like I explained before, no one asked us if we wanted to join the Union, our Fearless Leaders ordered us in an told us we were too uncivilized to discern our interests. It doesn't say anything great about the EU that a democratic deficit that big is ignored, or other countries voted multiple times until they came up with the right answer.

[OkToBeTakei]

I am arguing against a specific German fiscal policy, not going around and calling Germans Nazis or war mongers. It isn't a stereotype to say some of their papers are playing up a caricature of lazy Greeks going after hard working Northern European money. It is a very deliberate attempt to paint Greeks as uniquely aweful so they take all the blame if the monetary union fails. That way fewer people will ask how anyone believed a monetary union that does not automatically transfer from rich to poor is supposed to work. I vote in Greece when I'm there, I'm a property owner, and I file taxes yearly. This isn't some romantic get back to my roots exercise for me. And still, I am talking about policy and action in the present, not what other people did 2 generations in the past. As for Greek politicos most qualify as boils on humanity's collective butt. That is no stereotype. But like I explained before, no one asked us if we wanted to join the Union, our Fearless Leaders ordered us in an told us we were too uncivilized to discern our interests. It doesn't say anything great about the EU that a democratic deficit that big is ignored, or other countries voted multiple times until they came up with the right answer.

Good to see you took my comment in kind rather than keep the stick up your arse like, even though your comments were not in particular standout in regards to German stereotypes. Maybe I was mistaken there.

You should see the press here satirically on any given day about the US. Strangely enough it does not reflect everybody who lives here's thoughts. Shocker eh?

Spilt milk. There is no way of knowing if either Greece or Ireland would have been better off. Easy after the fact.

[Arete]

It's not a question of better off, and it means more than spilt milk when your leadership robs the entire country of its voting rights. For a country that was a dictatorship for 7 years, it's a damn big deal.

As for the stick up my ass, I'll keep my prerogative of criticizing a country's policies. It's not reserved only for the US.

[OkToBeTakei]

It's not a question of better off, and it means more than spilt milk when your leadership robs the entire country of its voting rights. For a country that was a dictatorship for 7 years, it's a damn big deal.

As for the stick up my ass, I'll keep my prerogative of criticizing a country's policies. It's not reserved only for the US.

Was not suggesting it was. It's fair game.

[Arete]

Here is a good explanation of why Greece really needs to leave the Euro to allow its replacement currency to be devalued. The reforms it has agreed to will not merely fail, requiring yet more money, it will take what is left of its economy and turn it to ashes.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-we ... 2015-07-22

[OkToBeTakei]

Here is a good explanation of why Greece really needs to leave the Euro to allow its replacement currency to be devalued. The reforms it has agreed to will not merely fail, requiring yet more money, it will take what is left of its economy and turn it to ashes.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-we ... 2015-07-22

I'm not sure that really is the case and it really does depend on what particular opinion, pundit, publication you read.

Over the past two days I've read equally compelling arguments for the above as you describe and for staying within the Euro. From doom predictions as above to optimistic predictions that Greece could actually make a strong economic recovery.

The piece above mentioned tourism and that zero holidays were booked! I'm assuming that is an error. Just from my own personal experience at least half the 18 yr olds in the UK are either in or on their way to Malia, my nephew just returned. I know of at least 4 families holidaying there and I am going in a couple of months. Now I'm one person but I doubt these are the only people holidaying. The only advice that is unusual is about traveller cheques (don't) and the possibility that cash machines may be busy empty and that small shops may not accept debit/switch/maestro and to be honest that has been the case on some of the smaller islands I've visited anyway.

On tourism I read a random article about Golf .... I know :lol: It was true though. The whole of Greece has something like 4 golf courses. A perfect climate accessible for short breaks etc etc. Cyprus has 6 golf courses for example. I just found it interesting (not suggesting obviously golf being the answer to all problems) Golf is HUGE money.

Wether it is Euro or drachma long term economic growth and infrastructure is going to be difficult. Spain was in a similar position and is now economically strong. The Greek govt. has made very poor decisions on behalf of its population in the past, drachma/euro that hopefully will change.

Unnecessary German bashing aside as other Europeans on the board have mentioned all I hear in reality and news is sympathy and support for the Greek people.

[OkToBeTakei]

Also meant to ask all interested parties.

We are all armchair politicians and spectators to some extent wether it be our own country or others. Obviously our views can be coloured by our own beliefs, that's natural although I find generally on FJ folks are interested in others POV.

Anyway question. Just economically speaking using past mistakes as a springboard how can Greece reach its potential?

I have some great links saved on my laptop at home which I can access later (never can figure out posting links on Tapa.)

[Mama Mia]

Could someone explain to me like I'm five how all of these economies transferred to one currency? I mean the basics, like deciding how much bread would cost or how much a gas station attendant would make or the price of a house.

Presumably all of these countries had widely divergent costs in their own currencies, based on their economies, products and industries they excelled in, vs those they lacked. So how do you take one form of money and just slap it on all these different circumstances and then use it from place to place?

I would imagine it's got to be incredibly complex to convert, right? Or am I making it too complicated? did each country just decide that 1 euro = 1 franc or drachma or ? .

As I said in an earlier post it actually is kind of an issue in the U.S. With the dollar, and that's after sharing the same currency since each state joined the union.

For instance, just comparing my area to, for example, the Duggar's.

We both use dollars.

But an average house in my area is $600,000 for the Duggar's it's around $100,000 ( I think, just throwing out estimates here) .

To rent a typical 2 bedroom apartment is $2,200 in my area. Around $600 for the Duggar's.

On the other hand, average family income is $80,000 here. Around $35,000 for the Duggar area.

But many federal benefits for health care or welfare or free pre- school will be based on the federal poverty level which is around 27,000 for a family ( I think- again, All rough approximations )

So that dollar means very different things. How on earth did you work all that out between so many countries with vastly different economies and geography and systems and cultures????

[Arete]

OKTBT, he is talking about bookings happening or not happening right now. Greek news was reporting large drops 10 days ago, which was being attributed to the banks being closed. Domestic tourism is down 50% in some places. The VAT on goods and services in the islands just went up 70%. Greece will be priced out by places like Croatia and a Turkey that don't have the a Euro but still have great beaches. The a Euro and the VAT is going to price Greece right out of the tourist market by making Greek packages non competitive.

These punitive reforms are never going to generate enough money to pay the bill. Greece has to leverage the only 2-3 things it does well tourism, shipping, and olive oil to bring in the cash it needs to pay the creditors.

[Arete]

MamaMia,

The Euro was set up with an exchange rate against all the local money being phased out. If you new the price of a house the day before in your local currency, you simply calculated its value in Euros according to the exchange rate. There are no Federal benefits in Europe. Social security, healthcare, unemployment insurance, school lunch programs are all funded and administered by the individual country. There are block grants to the poorer countries, but that is meant to improve their infrastructure and do not last forever.

[Anny Nym]

@Mama Mia, there was/is a converting index:

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/eur ... dex_en.htm

As AreteJo already explained, the difference in pricing, average income per region, etc is mainly relevant within the individual country.

ETA: Fellow europeans, could you still remember your old money? Drachme, Franc, Guilder, Mark, Lira...

[OkToBeTakei]

OKTBT, he is talking about bookings happening or not happening right now. Greek news was reporting large drops 10 days ago, which was being attributed to the banks being closed. Domestic tourism is down 50% in some places. The VAT on goods and services in the islands just went up 70%. Greece will be priced out by places like Croatia and a Turkey that don't have the a Euro but still have great beaches. The a Euro and the VAT is going to price Greece right out of the tourist market by making Greek packages non competitive.

These punitive reforms are never going to generate enough money to pay the bill. Greece has to leverage the only 2-3 things it does well tourism, shipping, and olive oil to bring in the cash it needs to pay the creditors.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/trave ... -rise.html

The hotel comparison website told Telegraph Travel that interest in Greece is up by 27 per cent compared to 2014 and by 8 per cent on last month.

This has translated into sales, with the Association of British Travel Agents (Abta) confirming that bookings to Greece remain healthy and are up year on year, with travellers taking advantage of “some exceptional dealsâ€. It said travel agents are reporting an increase in late bookings following the bailout agreement.

Andreas Andreadis, president of the Greek Tourism Confederation, said: “The fact that up to 800,000 visitors are currently enjoying their holiday in Greece, and a similar number were here right throughout the economic difficulties, shows that holidays to Greece really haven’t been affected by the economic difficulties.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/trave ... stead.html

Can't believe I quoted the FAIL ....it was though for this reason.

What crisis? Greek tourism up 2% from last year (with thousands of the 300,000 tourists due to travel to Tunisia heading there instead)

Tunisia was a dreadful tragedy and is going to hit their economy badly also. The difference is Brits/Irish numbering in the millions are not put off by 'bring cash' compared to terrorism. I think domestic tourism being down is natural, no? During the worst years of any recession holidays are the first to go. It certainly was the case here.

Booking.com is an online site. Don't get me wrong I use it often, I also use others which are similar, I just would not class it as say the largest. ABTA figures would be more reliable. They are saying sales are up and rising for this year and have surpassed last year. Brochures and online for 2016 are available, I suppose time will tell. I hope it remains as positive.

[OkToBeTakei]

Greek PM has secured the votes to move toward the bailout.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33631751

There are some parts of this process I'm up to speed on and those I am clueless on. Banking is an obvious target. Why is the judiciary system under review?

Mama Mia

This does a pretty good bread and butter job of explaining the current situation. It does not address the history which really, to see the whole crisis in perspective from Greece's entry to the EU which is where the foundation of the economic crisis lies. Just to add both France and Germany played a not so shining role in this history and it can be argued, the UK also by not accepting the Euro currency. It's a sorry little drama. Which unfortunately has played out in Ireland. I saw that first hand, not pretty when it's your family.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33624588

[OkToBeTakei]

@Mama Mia, there was/is a converting index:

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/eur ... dex_en.htm

As AreteJo already explained, the difference in pricing, average income per region, etc is mainly relevant within the individual country.

ETA: Fellow europeans, could you still remember your old money? Drachme, Franc, Guilder, Mark, Lira...

Just to bring some much needed levity. I could never work out drachma. That shit was complicated!!!! You would be spending 50p and it was like 3000 drachma ....I used to feel rich as a kid over there. We still have Sterling, so no change here. The only benefit is if you come home with Euro coins you can shove em in a coke machine here, or a shopping trolley :lol:

[Arete]

OKTBT , the judiciary is under review for reform because it is EXTREMELY slow and inefficient. If you took me to court in Greece for my not paying on a service you performed or a tree on my property damaging your deck, it could take up to FIVE YEARS and multiple delays to get a verdict. This sorry state feeds into the vendetta culture in certain places like Crete, and discourages new businesses from opening because any legal problem would take years to resolve. So you open your new business in London and you force your entire family to shun an entire other family because your courts are practically useless in settling disputes in a timely manner.

[OkToBeTakei]

OKTBT , the judiciary is under review for reform because it is EXTREMELY slow and inefficient. If you took me to court in Greece for my not paying on a service you performed or a tree on my property damaging your deck, it could take up to FIVE YEARS and multiple delays to get a verdict. This sorry state feeds into the vendetta culture in certain places like Crete, and discourages new businesses from opening because any legal problem would take years to resolve. So you open your new business in London and you force your entire family to shun an entire other family because your courts are practically useless in settling disputes in a timely manner.

Can I assume then this also costs a fortune and also causes poor practice to circumnavigate the system?

How would you say the Greek people feel about that, I mean obviously it is something they are used to but surely they will see benefit in a better system? Well as long as it does not become too efficient, a la litigation culture. I see the UK or individuals trying to mimic the US in that respect. Although Scotland has it's own legal system.

[Arete]

Greek PM has secured the votes to move toward the bailout.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33631751

There are some parts of this process I'm up to speed on and those I am clueless on. Banking is an obvious target. Why is the judiciary system under review?

Mama Mia

This does a pretty good bread and butter job of explaining the current situation. It does not address the ahistory which really, to see the whole crisis in perspective from Greece's entry to the EU which is where the foundation of the economic crisis lies. Just to add both France and Germany played a not so shining role in this history and it can be argued, the UK also by not accepting the Euro currency. It's a sorry little drama. Which unfortunately has played out in Ireland. I saw that first hand, not pretty when it's your family.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33624588

The foundation of the economic crisis is not Greece's entry into the EU (European Union) in

1981. The foundation of the crisis is Greece entry into the currency union in 2001.

[Arete]

Yes, you can definitely assume it costs a fortune to see even the most basic court case through to resolution. And of course they want the reforms. The problem is right now most do not believe the reforms will stick. Greece has reformed inefficient systems many times only to have them revert due to things like the power of special interests (lawyer's union in this case). They need to see it work consistently for at least a year before they believe a reform is going to be permanent.

[OkToBeTakei]

The foundation of the economic crisis is not Greece's entry into the EU (European Union) in

1981. The foundation of the crisis is Greece entry into the currency union in 2001.

Sorry, that IS what I meant. I thought that was obvious as I referenced the economic aspect and mentioned France and Germany's part *shrug*

On the reforms, I've seen unions mentioned so would it be safe to say that will also be on the table in the future?

[OkToBeTakei]

Was just checking the live feed before I leave for work.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... ilout-live

Bundesbank is making small noises about compromise.

However, Weidmann also suggested a three-year extension. The IMF believes a three-decade one is needed....

I think this will eventually will be the reality.