Mike Huckabee on abortion

[Snarkylark]

Well said, Cleopatra7! I know the adoption debate is a hot button topic but it's true. There is no shortage of older kids in foster care:(

[formergothardite]

"Adoption not abortion" as a solution also doesn't address the problem of an unwanted pregnancy. It only addresses the problem of an unwanted baby.

[nausicaa]

And then Republicans want to cut welfare because they don't want their hard earned money going to impoverished people. If they were pro-life they would support welfare and WIC programs. But they only care about the unborn. Once the baby is born, it's on its own.

That reminds me of a quote by a Catholic nun that is going around on Facebook:

"I do not believe that just because you're opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is."

[ShepherdontheRock]

First do these fools really think by forcing a woman to carry her baby the private adoption rate will go up? Not every teen, low income, or pregnant woman is going to place her baby for adoption. Which is what they're trying to do. They're trying to make it look like they care by supporting domestic adoption yet they cut federal government programs and tell women to keep their legs closed. There might be more kids in foster care if women are forced to carry a pregnancy to term. Or more kids growing up poor or being abused.

Second, what a waste of my hard earned cash for this bs. They can do all this for an unborn child, but don't do shit to create more jobs, improve the foster care system, or help low come or middle class families. Why not fix the failing educational system.

Third, what's with these fools and abortion. If conservatives hate abortion, why not offer birth control and safe sex education. Why only offer abstinence only programs or shame girls for having sex. Why only care about unborn children? What about all the kids in foster care or all the kids who live in low income neighborhoods?

Republican:Women should be publicity shamed for being single mothers

Republican: Why should my tax dollars go to birth control, if you can't afford birth control you can't afford to have sex

Republican: All these illegals(Mexican) in this country should be deported. We can't afford to have them here. They're stealing all of our jobs and living off of welfare.

So much for being pro life.

And I agree that people think only poor slutty women have abortions. Especially black women. Goodness I keep seeing that stupid black lives matter abortion meme. Only women who sleep around then find out they're pregnant get abortions. In reality, married, single, white, black, hispanic, Asian, women in relationships, women who already have kids, women with careers, women with degrees, women who are upper class all seek abortions. Even before roe vs wade women had abortions. However the rich women that had money could get an abortion easily. The woman from a poor background had trouble seeking an abortion.

Isn't the irony that it's still true that white women with money are actually still those who get the most abortions? And don't women of color actually get fewer abortions for whatever reason? And what's even more stupid is the women I know trying to justify making "sex-selective" abortions illegal because WE'RE THE REAL FEMINISTS, NOT THOSE MAN HATING LIBERALS.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this though.

Adoption not abortion" as a solution also doesn't address the problem of an unwanted pregnancy. It only addresses the problem of an unwanted baby.

I personally think the question of adoption/welfare/whatever is kind of irrelevant to the abortion issue. I think the abortion issue mostly comes down to "is this woman okay with being pregnant?" and that. It's about a woman's uterus. And I think it's selfish to think a woman should carry a pregnancy she doesn't want just so she can make a baby for you to adopt.

[PennySycamore]

That reminds me of a quote by a Catholic nun that is going around on Facebook:

"I do not believe that just because you're opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is."

That was said by Sister Joan Chittister, OSB. Sister Joan is one of those nuns who is totally awesome!

Joan Chittister

[nausicaa]

Isn't the irony that it's still true that white women with money are actually still those who get the most abortions? And don't women of color actually get fewer abortions for whatever reason? And what's even more stupid is the women I know trying to justify making "sex-selective" abortions illegal because WE'RE THE REAL FEMINISTS, NOT THOSE MAN HATING LIBERALS.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this though.

From what I can find (from both pro-choice and anti-abortion sources), non-Hispanic white women account for less than 50% of women who have had abortions in the past twenty years (the projected number ranges from 15 to 36%, typically depending on the political skew of the source). Per the Guttmacher Institute (a very pro-choice non-profit) the abortion rate for black women is almost five times that of white women.

[nausicaa]

That was said by Sister Joan Chittister, OSB. Sister Joan is one of those nuns who is totally awesome!

Joan Chittister

Yes she is. Bad ass nuns for the win!

[ShepherdontheRock]

From what I can find (from both pro-choice and anti-abortion sources), non-Hispanic white women account for less than 50% of women who have had abortions in the past twenty years (the projected number ranges from 15 to 36%, typically depending on the political skew of the source). Per the Guttmacher Institute (a very pro-choice non-profit) the abortion rate for black women is almost five times that of white women.

Okay. I stand corrected.

Still racist and condescending for them to appropriate black lives matter in that way though.

[nausicaa]

Okay. I stand corrected.

Still racist and condescending for them to appropriate black lives matter in that way though.

Oh, I completely agree. And comparing abortion to genocide just because of the above is beyond illogical to me.

[2xx1xy1JD]

That's a terrifying thought. That's just going to make this country take a huge step backwards. And then women's rights will continue to be trampled on and the Republicans will already try to take away maternity leave (which is already shit in this country). Because that's their logic. You need to have babies but then have no one around to take care of them and be unable to support them.

Before Castro was in power and before Roe v. Wade my grandfather would sometimes help women who wanted an abortion get to Cuba so they could have the procedure there. These republicans either don't realize or don't care that if a woman is desperate enough she will go to another country for an abortion and/or get an illegal/unsafe one.

An old (from the days of George Bush Sr) but still relevant cartoon:

Women who have some money will still be able to travel for an abortion. I don't see it being outlawed in Canada again any time soon.

With the internet and the growing popularity of medical (as opposed to surgical) abortions, the procedure can be done more discretely than in the past. Someone can take some pills without going past protesters at a clinic.

It's possible that there could be an underground network designed to get medications to women.

It would be mostly women without access to travel or women with more advanced pregnancies or more complicated health histories who would be most affected by any ban.

[Toothfairy]

Can't quote for some reason. But I agree Cleopatra7. And interesting links. Infants are snatched up. Especially healthy infants. Private agencies can charge 50k for a white healthy infant because they're in high demand. Even in foster care foster parents want babies or young kids under 5. Older kids often age out or/and put into group homes/emergency shelters. So when I hear stupid uneducated conservatives or anyone use the just put your child up for adoption, I often wonder how many kids they've adopted or how many kids they've fostered or adopted. I truly think people especially Christians conservatives who talk bs think they're actually doing something when they make bland statements like this. In reality they're not doing shit.

[Toothfairy]

"Adoption not abortion" as a solution also doesn't address the problem of an unwanted pregnancy. It only addresses the problem of an unwanted baby.

Excellent article regarding adoption isn't the answer http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/ ... icers-say/

[smittykins]

And then Republicans want to cut welfare because they don't want their hard earned money going to impoverished people. If they were pro-life they would support welfare and WIC programs. But they only care about the unborn. Once the baby is born, it's on its own.

Or, in the immortal words of George Carlin, "If you're pre-born, you're fine. But if you're pre-school, you're fucked."

[Terrie]

Years ago, there was a great editorial in my local paper from an adoptive parent about how offensive and harmful "Adopt, don't abort" is. He pointed out that first, continuing a pregnancy is a completely separate question from the question of raising your child, and second, it sends a very, very ugly and damaging message to adopted children. "If you hadn't been adopted, your biological mother would have killed you."

I remember thinking that his son and his son's bio family were very lucky to have an adoptive family who had such respect for them.

[Snarkylark]

Excellent article regarding adoption isn't the answer http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/ ... icers-say/

I love the first poster's comment on that article, Dana, I think.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I love the first poster's comment on that article, Dana, I think.

I liked the article itself, but not that comment. Did she seriously just call birth mothers "dumb breeders"?

Giving a child up for adoption is a difficult, heart-rending decision. I can't imagine why anyone would want to engineer a situation where MORE mothers would come to the desperate conclusion that they could not parent their babies.

At the same time, if a mother does come to the realization that adoption is the best option in her particular situation, her decision should be respected. Why the hell would she care that some bitch on the internet thinks that she shouldn't have had the baby and accuses her of setting back the feminist cause?

[Snarkylark]

I've copied the comment referenced above for clarity-

These are Dana's words from the first comment after that link.

"I feel so strongly about this at this point: don't have children you don't intend to raise. They are YOUR children. You do NOT owe them to ANYONE else. Every time one of you feels sorry for an infertile and hands your child away, you contribute to society's perception of women as just breeders for husbands and states and churches and infertile couples (whether strangers or not--family often takes advantage of a relative "in trouble" too!). We really need to, as the feminist movement (doesn't matter which "wave"), start stepping up for women who would parent if their circumstances were just better. There's NO reason we can't do that and keep contraception and abortion safe and legal too. None. Zero. As long as fertile women are used as dumb breeders, we'll never be equal. Period."

You're absolutely right. She probably went a little too far with that last statement. I think she explained why she thinks that women who are pressured or guilted into choosing adoption might be considered dumb breeders.

But you are definitely right- a woman who decides that adoption is HER best option for whatever reason should be respected. Respect for women should go both ways, whether one agrees with whatever choice she makes.

[Snarkylark]

No woman should ever be considered a "breeder" period.

[Toothfairy]

I've copied the comment referenced above for clarity-

These are Dana's words from the first comment after that link.

"I feel so strongly about this at this point: don't have children you don't intend to raise. They are YOUR children. You do NOT owe them to ANYONE else. Every time one of you feels sorry for an infertile and hands your child away, you contribute to society's perception of women as just breeders for husbands and states and churches and infertile couples (whether strangers or not--family often takes advantage of a relative "in trouble" too!). We really need to, as the feminist movement (doesn't matter which "wave"), start stepping up for women who would parent if their circumstances were just better. There's NO reason we can't do that and keep contraception and abortion safe and legal too. None. Zero. As long as fertile women are used as dumb breeders, we'll never be equal. Period."

You're absolutely right. She probably went a little too far with that last statement. I think she explained why she thinks that women who are pressured or guilted into choosing adoption might be considered dumb breeders.

But you are definitely right- a woman who decides that adoption is HER best option for whatever reason should be respected. Respect for women should go both ways, whether one agrees with whatever choice she makes.

I kind of understand where the author was trying to say with her comment. There are some couples who ate so desperate for a baby that they think a pregnant teen or women in college owe them one. So they desperately try to market themselves without consideration for the woman's feelings. When I was fostering a teen and her newborn baby, a woman who had two prior failed adoptions call my foster daughter selfish for not placing her baby for adoption. She didn't understand why a teen in foster care would want that kind of lifestyle for their child when their child could have a better lifestyle with a loving couple. The breeder comment was uncalled for, but I see what her point was. A woman should choose adoption because she wants to. She doesn't owe anyone a baby or an explanation.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I kind of understand where the author was trying to say with her comment. There are some couples who ate so desperate for a baby that they think a pregnant teen or women in college owe them one. So they desperately try to market themselves without consideration for the woman's feelings. When I was fostering a teen and her newborn baby, a woman who had two prior failed adoptions call my foster daughter selfish for not placing her baby for adoption. She didn't understand why a teen in foster care would want that kind of lifestyle for their child when their child could have a better lifestyle with a loving couple. The breeder comment was uncalled for, but I see what her point was. A woman should choose adoption because she wants to. She doesn't owe anyone a baby or an explanation.

I agree that it is predatory to act as if a mom who is struggling "owes" another family her baby. It's one thing to be available to adopt for someone who has made the decision to place their child for adoption. It's another thing to actually pressure a birth mother into a decision.

Dana's comments, though, were aimed at birth mothers too, and showed a lack of respect for their ability to make their own decisions.

The other thing is that not all birth mothers are going to fall in that "nice single girl in trouble" stereotype. Some of my adoption files involved birth mothers who really didn't have the ability to control their fertility, due to mental illness or substance abuse. Others had wanted to keep the baby, but found that circumstances made it impossible to do so.

[CaptainFunderpants]

I believe every woman should. Check your library!

Or just read the Wikipedia. I was really interested in the topic, but didn't find the book to be particularly well written nor of the style of poorly written to be binge-readable (ala Twilight).

[Marissap]

There's nothing better than a white, religious, man trying to make choices for millions of women.

Even when I was a teenager I just couldn't understand trying to impose your morals on others via laws. It still baffles me just as much.

[DeFrauder]

That's a terrifying thought. That's just going to make this country take a huge step backwards. And then women's rights will continue to be trampled on and the Republicans will already try to take away maternity leave (which is already shit in this country). Because that's their logic. You need to have babies but then have no one around to take care of them and be unable to support them.

Before Castro was in power and before Roe v. Wade my grandfather would sometimes help women who wanted an abortion get to Cuba so they could have the procedure there. These republicans either don't realize or don't care that if a woman is desperate enough she will go to another country for an abortion and/or get an illegal/unsafe one.

An old (from the days of George Bush Sr) but still relevant cartoon:

I have been to Cuba. They are very proud of their women's health clinic. If it all goes south, women could still go there for safe abortions. Until recently they liked giving out medical care for free--but started charging tourists at the resorts for housecalls.

[Cleopatra7]

I have been to Cuba. They are very proud of their women's health clinic. If it all goes south, women could still go there for safe abortions. Until recently they liked giving out medical care for free--but started charging tourists at the resorts for housecalls.

However, in a post Roe v. Wade world, might women be prosecuted for getting abortions abroad? Based on my readings on the subject, everyone knew who the local "abortionists" were pre-Roe v. Wade, but a lot of people were content to look the other way. The reason why abortion decriminalization was able to happen in the first place was because people on both sides of the aisle realized that the status quo was untenable. Unlike now, there wasn't this heated rhetoric about "babykilling" and such, even among people who disliked abortion. Those who sold contraceptives and the like were often charged with some form of obscenity, not with homicide, as some conservatives seem to want. Since there have been cases of women being charged for having miscarriages, I think that the possibility is there for imprisoning women who have had abortions abroad in some areas, maybe with the claim that they are just "protecting women" from going to dodging clinics in the developing world. The way to do that would be to have safe abortions here, but it's not like these people really care about women's health.

[Toothfairy]

I don't know why the GOP and conservatives are so against abortion. Yet they don't do shit when a gun tragedy happens. They don't do shit for the children already born. The only possible reasons I can think of for them being against abortions are hating women for having sex/ controlling her own body, or they think the unborn child is going to add to Evangelism. The goal is to make this country a christian nation.