Slender Man--emerging religious crazy

[Eighth-of-eleven]

You are not arguing from a position of familiarity with the actual outcomes of the great majority of cases of mental illness (related to murders or otherwise) either acute onset Or chronic ongoing. Or the realities of prison/psychiatric institutional life for the vast majority of inmates.

Internet articles, while interesting, do not cover the full scope of practice and research, experience and observation, legal realities and the difficulties inherent dealing with this population in real life in the United States.

[DeFrauder]

You are not arguing from a position of familiarity with the actual outcomes of the great majority of cases of mental illness (related to murders or otherwise) either acute onset Or chronic ongoing. Or the realities of prison/psychiatric institutional life for the vast majority of inmates.

Internet articles, while interesting, do not cover the full scope of practice and research, experience and observation, legal realities and the difficulties inherent dealing with this population in real life in the United States.

Ok--what does that mean? That you do not think there are other viable alternatives for dealing with mentally ill people in the prison system?

You have said that life for a mentally ill inmate is very terrible. Should it be terrible? Are there ways to make it less terrible?

[FundieFarmer]

I spent my abnormal psychology practicum working in the criminal unit of a state mental hospital in the Southeast US. (That's about when I discovered psychology was not for me :lol: ) We had a wide range of crimes and disorders present.

I think we're looking at totally different things here. White collar prisons definitely do exist and they are measurably nicer than many of the other prisons we know through pop culture. Though it is still not an entirely pleasant experience, exposes indicate that Club Fed is very real.

Club Fed is also the polar opposite of what clinical inmates get. I didn't work in the prison system necessarily, but the conditions in the psych facility were still harsh, dangerous, and disgusting. The prisoners were wildly unpredictable and often more dangerous than their non-inmate counterparts. And these were the ones fortunate enough to have access to a state facility. I think the mental health issues are so rampant that the dearth of truly accessible mental care is a crime in itself. I think the days of terrible prisons should be over, but I don't really have any suggestions that would be welcomed to any great acclaim by those in charge of the system. I think an excellent first step is addressing the issues from a preventative end, in order to lessen the necessity for reactionary treatment or detainment.

The state of mental care in the U.S. bothers me greatly. It's just a different animal from Club Fed, which is equally as real but exponentially nicer.

[Eighth-of-eleven]

I agree with everything you are saying fundyfarmer, "clubfed" however, is such a small percentage of prisons that it is almost non existent. I am speaking about the 99% of reality. I have worked in jail system as well as the prison mental health system for many years and the realities break my heart. I do not condone them. I have seen many efforts at rehabilitation of the systems come and go and fail miserably for many reasons. I originally went into the system with a heart for change as part of the national prison hospice movement, but that is a long story.

Edited because I am always typing on my phone and a screwing it up! :-)

[FundieFarmer]

Very true the problems are way more rampant than elite prisons. It's also unfortunate that the inmates there usually still retain the resources to pay for therapy, compared to their general population counterparts.

[DeFrauder]

I spent my abnormal psychology practicum working in the criminal unit of a state mental hospital in the Southeast US. (That's about when I discovered psychology was not for me :lol: ) We had a wide range of crimes and disorders present.

I think we're looking at totally different things here. White collar prisons definitely do exist and they are measurably nicer than many of the other prisons we know through pop culture. Though it is still not an entirely pleasant experience, exposes indicate that Club Fed is very real.

Club Fed is also the polar opposite of what clinical inmates get. I didn't work in the prison system necessarily, but the conditions in the psych facility were still harsh, dangerous, and disgusting. The prisoners were wildly unpredictable and often more dangerous than their non-inmate counterparts. And these were the ones fortunate enough to have access to a state facility. I think the mental health issues are so rampant that the dearth of truly accessible mental care is a crime in itself. I think the days of terrible prisons should be over, but I don't really have any suggestions that would be welcomed to any great acclaim by those in charge of the system. I think an excellent first step is addressing the issues from a preventative end, in order to lessen the necessity for reactionary treatment or detainment.

The state of mental care in the U.S. bothers me greatly. It's just a different animal from Club Fed, which is equally as real but exponentially nicer.

Yes--so I am asking why there are not better programs for mentally ill inmates? As far as I understand--Club Fed is for rich or well connected people. BUT a Club Fed style facility that serves to rehabilitate mentally ill inmates could only be a good thing.

Why are the people in charge so resistant to reforming their rehabilitation programs for mentally ill inmates?

It seems like they want to give extra punishment to mentally ill people that commit crimes.

I am also not sure that mentally ill criminals who commit horrific crimes should ever be let back into the community--but I gave two examples of horrific crime offenders that were. Actually 3 if we include the Finnish woman but I do not have a link to prove she existed.

IF 'society' were to come to a decision that these offenders should never be released---then, to me--it only makes sense that they are living in a facility that makes their life easier--not harder.

For example a nice prison like the Ferndale institution that I linked about---where inmates live in little bungalows rather than bar covered cells and can work on self improvement or whatever.

[Eighth-of-eleven]

You could easily answer your own repeated questions by doing some continued reading of well researched sources.

[DeFrauder]

You could easily answer your own repeated questions by doing some continued reading of well researched sources.

Ok Eight. Why are you causing drama? If you don't want to discuss the topics in the thread---then don't discuss them.

[Eighth-of-eleven]

I am having discussions with those who are capable of entertaining reasonable discussions. I have seen your pattern in many threads now and it's tiresome. I'll be ignoring you now.

[VelociRapture]

I'm of the opinion that the two girls who attempted to murder a third over this Slender Man stuff deserve to be tried as adults. They planned this months ahead of time and intended for her to die. They showed her no mercy. They deserve to be punished for what they did.

That said, if one or both of them really does suffer from mental illness I would certainly hope they would be provided adequate treatment opportunities while incarcerated. And I would hope that they would both be able to pursue educations and take part in activities that could benefit themselves and others. Just because they're locked away for the benefit of society doesn't mean they should be denied opportunities to better themselves and possibly make a positive impact on the world (while also being punished for their incredibly bad and stupid choice.)

The thing I find most sad though is that three young girls and their families have all had their lives changed irrevocably over something so stupid.

[DeFrauder]

I am having discussions with those who are capable of entertaining reasonable discussions. I have seen your pattern in many threads now and it's tiresome. I'll be ignoring you now.

LOL ok, fill your boots.

[DeFrauder]

I'm of the opinion that the two girls who attempted to murder a third over this Slender Man stuff deserve to be tried as adults. They planned this months ahead of time and intended for her to die. They showed her no mercy. They deserve to be punished for what they did.

That said, if one or both of them really does suffer from mental illness I would certainly hope they would be provided adequate treatment opportunities while incarcerated. And I would hope that they would both be able to pursue educations and take part in activities that could benefit themselves and others. Just because they're locked away for the benefit of society doesn't mean they should be denied opportunities to better themselves and possibly make a positive impact on the world (while also being punished for their incredibly bad and stupid choice.)

The thing I find most sad though is that three young girls and their families have all had their lives changed irrevocably over something so stupid.

Yes--they definitely deserve to face the consequences for what they have done. They have done absolutely horrific and unthinkable things. It is shocking. I guess all these types of crimes are.

While I am not against trying them as adults--I find the ability to pick and choose who can be tried as an adult to be a problem. They need to pick one ethic or another---not say kids will be tried as kids until they do something so heinous that we want to punish them like adults--maybe--depending on how well their lawyer is able to convince a judge they should be tried as a kid.

In the end that seems to work out to rich kids with expensive but good lawyers get tried as kids while poor kids that have no one to advocate for them get tried as adults. Maybe all the kids need to be tried as adults.

I also think there is a reasonable chance that this girl is not as mentally ill as the defence is promoting. OR she is completely batshit. In a case such as this, mental illness is a very good defence. The other girl is not considered to be as mentally ill from what I understand.

The bottom line is there is more going on here than 1 person hurting another person. It was a conspiracy and rooted in a belief in the supernatural.

[Eighth-of-eleven]

I'm of the opinion that the two girls who attempted to murder a third over this Slender Man stuff deserve to be tried as adults. They planned this months ahead of time and intended for her to die. They showed her no mercy. They deserve to be punished for what they did.

That said, if one or both of them really does suffer from mental illness I would certainly hope they would be provided adequate treatment opportunities while incarcerated. And I would hope that they would both be able to pursue educations and take part in activities that could benefit themselves and others. Just because they're locked away for the benefit of society doesn't mean they should be denied opportunities to better themselves and possibly make a positive impact on the world (while also being punished for their incredibly bad and stupid choice.)

The thing I find most sad though is that three young girls and their families have all had their lives changed irrevocably over something so stupid.

If there is, and I suspect that there is, severe mental illness involved here, you are right to only hope for adequate treatment and education behind bars.

Some excellent information if you are interested, is in a book written by Dr Stephen b. Seager. He is a board certified state hospital staff psychiatrist working in California. He's written a book called: A year with the criminally insane, behind the gates of Gomorrah.(What really happens to the criminally insane)

He works with forensicslly committed patients like those in the maximum security facility I worked at, just slightly less security level. They have had staff murdered as well though...it's all difficult.

Anyway, he does a great job of outlining the issues.

[Phoebe]

I'm seeing more and more of my patients coming in with some sort of connection to "Slender Man"; one who was just discharged claims that he controls her via "buzzing" and "glitching" auditory hallucinations...overall though I think most of them need to get off the damn creepypasta reddits and tumblrs and whatnot. The specific patient I was referencing also has at least one Axis II diagnosis and was never observed to be responding to internal stimuli -- unless she was aware that she was being observed.

[Eighth-of-eleven]

Cluster "B"? Borderline, narcissist, antisocial, young would be oppositional defiant disorder...or a mix of features? Those are usually the ones looking for attention... :-)

[DeFrauder]

I'm seeing more and more of my patients coming in with some sort of connection to "Slender Man"; one who was just discharged claims that he controls her via "buzzing" and "glitching" auditory hallucinations...overall though I think most of them need to get off the damn creepypasta reddits and tumblrs and whatnot. The specific patient I was referencing also has at least one Axis II diagnosis and was never observed to be responding to internal stimuli -- unless she was aware that she was being observed.

That is really interesting.

Not so much your Axis II patient hamming it up--but the idea that Slender Man has become such a huge part of youth culture.

I don't get what is so exciting about Slender Man, but some kids (a lot of kids) have afforded him a lot of power. Its more than a Bogey Man sort of thing. The Bogey Man was a threat, often to encourage kids to behave, but after a certain age it wasn't normal to believe in him. The kids believing in Slender Man are older. AND, perhaps more importantly, they are "communicating" with Slender Man and becoming his minions, often by choice. Its a supposed goal for some of these kids to become a minion of Slender Man. They think they want to murder for him. They seem to believe that Slender Man needs their help and wants to recruit some lucky chosen ones. Its a fascinating phenomenon.

All these Slender Man creepypasta websites need some analysis because there must be something there that is attracting the kids to this unusual narrative.

It can't be all about mental illness either, While some of the kids are having problems, not all of them are. And even if they were all having problems, something is drawing them to Slender Man.

[Phoebe]

Cluster "B"? Borderline, narcissist, antisocial, young would be oppositional defiant disorder...or a mix of features? Those are usually the ones looking for attention... :-)

My best guess is borderline...just a guess since I'm not a doctor and I see my patients in short term hospitalization.

[Eighth-of-eleven]

My best guess is borderline...just a guess since I'm not a doctor and I see my patients in short term hospitalization.

Bpd are exausting to work with long term on units, and I think they exaust themselves. So labile. Now that I am out of working in the hospital and going on to grad school for lmft licensure I'm actually intersted in working with non forensicslly committed Bpd pts.

[Phoebe]

That is really interesting.

Not so much your Axis II patient hamming it up--but the idea that Slender Man has become such a huge part of youth culture.

I don't get what is so exciting about Slender Man, but some kids (a lot of kids) have afforded him a lot of power. Its more than a Bogey Man sort of thing. The Bogey Man was a threat, often to encourage kids to behave, but after a certain age it wasn't normal to believe in him. The kids believing in Slender Man are older. AND, perhaps more importantly, they are "communicating" with Slender Man and becoming his minions, often by choice. Its a supposed goal for some of these kids to become a minion of Slender Man. They think they want to murder for him. They seem to believe that Slender Man needs their help and wants to recruit some lucky chosen ones. Its a fascinating phenomenon.

All these Slender Man creepypasta websites need some analysis because there must be something there that is attracting the kids to this unusual narrative.

It can't be all about mental illness either, While some of the kids are having problems, not all of them are. And even if they were all having problems, something is drawing them to Slender Man.

Yes, agreed that this phenomenon isn't a sign of mental illness or exclusive to kids with mental illness. It's been my experience that what I see inpatient is an exaggerated microcosm of teen culture in general. One thing I've noticed is that the teens I run across are both aware that not everything on the internet is true and willing to suspend that particular belief when something is countercultural enough.

[Phoebe]

Bpd are exausting to work with long term on units, and I think they exaust themselves. So labile. Now that I am out of working in the hospital and going on to grad school for lmft licensure I'm actually intersted in working with non forensicslly committed Bpd pts.

You're absolutely right they can be exhausting...but once they get tired of exhausting themselves and recognizing that they have a personality disorder they can work to improve, they can be really great folks. One of my frequent fliers I think is at that point where she is tired of living All Drama, All The Time and I'm hoping she uses her outpatient DBT therapy to make some significant changes. She has incredible potential to succeed and she is one of my favorites.

[church_of_dog]

Yes, agreed that this phenomenon isn't a sign of mental illness or exclusive to kids with mental illness. It's been my experience that what I see inpatient is an exaggerated microcosm of teen culture in general. One thing I've noticed is that the teens I run across are both aware that not everything on the internet is true and willing to suspend that particular belief when something is countercultural enough.

I find that phenomenon frightening, especially given the wide range of possibilities of what might be interpreted as countercultural.

As an aside, the more I learn about propaganda/marketing, the more I conclude that pretty much all of us in the marketing-steeped world has one degree or another of delusion, and I suspect that there is a large gray area overlapping between the "normal" population and those with real mental illness. Considering the very hard times that I think are coming, in terms of economic contraction, I find that really ominous, since I don't expect people who are strongly deluded by marketing to adjust well to the coming changes.

[Eighth-of-eleven]

You're absolutely right they can be exhausting...but once they get tired of exhausting themselves and recognizing that they have a personality disorder they can work to improve, they can be really great folks. One of my frequent fliers I think is at that point where she is tired of living All Drama, All The Time and I'm hoping she uses her outpatient DBT therapy to make some significant changes. She has incredible potential to succeed and she is one of my favorites.

I love this, have found it to be true by observation over the years. In hospital we used CBT, and saw lots of change with folks who were not too heavily anti social. I'm exited to be going on in school in this next few years!!

[VelociRapture]

If there is, and I suspect that there is, severe mental illness involved here, you are right to only hope for adequate treatment and education behind bars.

Some excellent information if you are interested, is in a book written by Dr Stephen b. Seager. He is a board certified state hospital staff psychiatrist working in California. He's written a book called: A year with the criminally insane, behind the gates of Gomorrah.(What really happens to the criminally insane)

He works with forensicslly committed patients like those in the maximum security facility I worked at, just slightly less security level. They have had staff murdered as well though...it's all difficult.

Anyway, he does a great job of outlining the issues.

Thanks! I'll try and take a look into his work.

These kids are so incredibly young. It honestly makes me sad to think that they'll spend the majority of their lives in jail for doing this and I do wonder if trying them as Adults is fair. . . but then I think about the victim and how she must have suffered. Would trying them in Juvenile Court be fair to the victim? Would it be fair to society if they really are legitimate dangers that they be released at 18?

There really are no good answers in this situation.

[FundieFarmer]

Yes, agreed that this phenomenon isn't a sign of mental illness or exclusive to kids with mental illness. It's been my experience that what I see inpatient is an exaggerated microcosm of teen culture in general. One thing I've noticed is that the teens I run across are both aware that not everything on the internet is true and willing to suspend that particular belief when something is countercultural enough.

Interesting. Is this also a trend with other things? Very curious.

[Phoebe]

Interesting. Is this also a trend with other things? Very curious.

Well, of my usual patients, a good 85% or so claim to be bisexual. Another 3-5% claim to be transgender, genderqueer, or pansexual. That's definitely unusual, as this demographic has really shifted in the past year or so. As of 2013, about 25% or so of our patients described themselves as on the LGBTQA spectrum. IDK what happened in 2014, but the percentages jumped to the 75-85% range. The only thing I can think of is that some are genuinely on the LGBTQA spectrum, some are questioning their sexuality, and the rest are claiming to be on the LGBTQA spectrum because it makes them different/unusual/exotic/pisses their parents off.

Another trend I see in the inpatient teen population is that hallucinations are a big trend; right now it's seen as somehow cooler to have symptoms of psychosis. Claims of multiple personality disorder/dissociative identity disorder are almost nonexistent (but was huge a few years back from what coworkers tell me), and cutting seems to be on the decline -- there's still a significant percentage of cutters/cutting, but it's decreased down from close to 100% to closer to 50%.