Joshley Madison Pt 8: Are We Still Talking About This?

[AngelGirl8811]

I feel as though Josh lived the way that he did because he didn't have to own up to the mistakes that he made all those years ago. His parents covered it up and there were really no consequences for him, they continued to put him on a pedestal. Now he's an adult living his parents beliefs and he had a secret life. It's sad that Anna was dragged into this, it's sad that they have four children together who are I am sure missing their Dad, and it's sad that their belief system brought this about. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I never got the sense Michelle suffered from any form of abuse outside of Jim Bob. Her siblings, from what we hear of them seem relatively normal. I really think that JB is the ultimate control freak and manipulated an already impressionable teen. 

I've always had a completely different read on this.  I've always thought the whole thing was Michelle's doing - she went off the rails and he went along with her and used it for this own benefit.  Then REALLY benefited when it got him so much attention as a politician and later the TV deal.  

I have nothing to back this up, it's strictly a gut feeling so I could be completely off, but I have always felt Michelle was the driving force behind this.  She seems not very bright and lacking in strength so I can see where the idea of a belief system that makes all your decisions for you AND absolves you of responsibility for your actions and lays all that on Jim-Bob officially would be very appealing for someone afraid of autonomy and lacking in critical thinking skills.  Before they started profiting off being famous for having too many children to properly care for I bet JB would have jumped off the bandwagon if she had come to her senses.  

I could be totally wrong - just a vibe I get. 

 

[ClaraOswin]

As far as RU and confidentiality...HA! I don't think that place cares. If they did, they wouldn't have their residents on a public, live internet feed each week. So messed up.

[HarleyQuinn]

I've always had a completely different read on this.  I've always thought the whole thing was Michelle's doing - she went off the rails and he went along with her and used it for this own benefit.  Then REALLY benefited when it got him so much attention as a politician and later the TV deal.  

I have nothing to back this up, it's strictly a gut feeling so I could be completely off, but I have always felt Michelle was the driving force behind this.  She seems not very bright and lacking in strength so I can see where the idea of a belief system that makes all your decisions for you AND absolves you of responsibility for your actions and lays all that on Jim-Bob officially would be very appealing for someone afraid of autonomy and lacking in critical thinking skills.  Before they started profiting off being famous for having too many children to properly care for I bet JB would have jumped off the bandwagon if she had come to her senses.  

I could be totally wrong - just a vibe I get. 

 

I can see that too. I think Michelle was the bigger Jesus freak and probably discussed it with Jim Bob, then when he realized he would be her headship they dove in. JB has always looked really possessive over Michelle, even in their old photos. I like the point you made about Michelle being kind of dumb and liking having someone else make decisions. That makes sense too.

[nokidsmom]

I've always had a completely different read on this.  I've always thought the whole thing was Michelle's doing - she went off the rails and he went along with her and used it for this own benefit.  Then REALLY benefited when it got him so much attention as a politician and later the TV deal.  

I have nothing to back this up, it's strictly a gut feeling so I could be completely off, but I have always felt Michelle was the driving force behind this.  She seems not very bright and lacking in strength so I can see where the idea of a belief system that makes all your decisions for you AND absolves you of responsibility for your actions and lays all that on Jim-Bob officially would be very appealing for someone afraid of autonomy and lacking in critical thinking skills.  Before they started profiting off being famous for having too many children to properly care for I bet JB would have jumped off the bandwagon if she had come to her senses.  

I could be totally wrong - just a vibe I get. 

 

That's been my feeling on JB and J'chelle all along, that J'chelle went down the fundie rabbit hole and JB willingly followed, to find, later on, that having a large family brought him fame and money.    So while it eventually paid off, in some ways, literally for JB to do this, initially it was all about pleasing J'chelle.   It might still be about pleasing J'chelle, who knows.

I never thought that in the beginning JB was trying to manipulate her, he was clearly besotted with the pretty cheerleader who was willing to date and then marry him.   They were mainstream until she went off the rails. 

Agree that J'chelle isn't the most strong minded person emotionally or that smart and could easily fall into a lifestyle or any belief system where the decisions were made for her.   

[HarleyQuinn]

That's why I think he was manipulative. He got this pretty cheerleader when he was for lack of a better word - a dweeb. So he was like "MUST KEEP AT ALL COST!"

Look at this creepy, possessive bastard.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

That's why I think he was manipulative. He got this pretty cheerleader when he was for lack of a better word - a dweeb. So he was like "MUST KEEP AT ALL COST!"

Look at this creepy, possessive bastard.

This is another thing I see differently than most people.  She's pretty but back in the day he was much better looking than she was.  Young Jim-Bob could have done much better than teenage Michelle - superficially speaking.  She's aged better (his eyebrows have become invisible which makes him look like a Muppet) and with the exception of her hair I think she's quite attractive.  

I don't know if people just hear cheerleader and assume hotness, but there are some average yet pretty cheerleaders out there and she's definitely in that category, imo.  

[Cleopatra7]

As far as RU and confidentiality...HA! I don't think that place cares. If they did, they wouldn't have their residents on a public, live internet feed each week. So messed up.

Since RU is a considered a "ministry," they probably think that broadcasting vulnerable people at their lowest point is a "blessing" or something like that. It's not like these fundie rehab places care about things like privacy, re-victimization, or sound therapy practices. Whether Josh was ever at RU, you can bet they loved the free publicity.

[notfundy]

 

 Huh.  I actually think Michelle was, and is, very pretty when she has her hair done "normally" like in the People glamour shoot last year.  I have a hard time being objective about JimBoob because he is just so slimy and gross and disgusting...just.... (as Jimmy Fallon would say)  EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.  

 So my personal opinion,  based mostly on (a) Josh’s prior actions/demonstration of weak character & (b) my reading about RU & watching their web feed on Friday nights a couple of times  I don’t think Josh is at Reformers United.   At least he’s not anymore.  He may have been for a short time, based on:

 

(1) The Cirrus’s flight to Rockford occurred at the right time with very short time on the ground, long enough for JD to push him out onto the tarmac is pretty good evidence).   AFAIK, there was not a return flight documented, so that does give me a little pause – how did he get back home?  There are commercial flights out of Rockford (he might have been spotted there, though). 

 

(2)  JBoob and Michelle have documented ties to RU so it makes sense they would avail their son of these “resources” such as they are. 

THAT SAID...

I don’t think he would have lasted at RU.  Frankly, I think the family sent him there originally or said they sent him (I know they never said it was RU, but they did say he was going to treatment) because they were told it was the right thing to do.    They were certainly advised it was the right thing to SAY.   

 

But Josh has demonstrated a fairly weak work ethic & general character throughout his life.  I don’t think he is used to working very hard at all.  If RU enforces the work requirement - - and I believe they do - - I think he would have an extremely hard time tolerating that for six months.  Or for six days.  

 

RU is not licensed, not certified, not anything most thinking folks would consider a “real” rehab program.  Their statistics are so bogus (80% “cure” rate?  NO program can claim or substantiate that!)   Who knows if they are even bound by rules such as HIPAA?  That is not to say that participants do not maintain the confidentiality of their fellow inmates.  They likely do.   But the general (public) community does not, and I think Josh would have been spotted somewhere, sometime in these past months in and about Rockford/northern Illinois area.    

 

So that is my thinking admittedly based on not much more than my…… thinking.    I don’t think he would have lasted there and if he did, he would have been spotted by someone by now due to the work requirement.  I know he is somewhat of a high-profile celebrity and RU could be hiding him by having him work behind closed doors and I don’t have a good answer for that one. 

 

[JenniferJuniper]

I don't have sympathy for him, I believe he is living just as he was taught to live, and that he is likely the tip of the iceberg of Gothard followers who are abusive or abused.  

Doing what you have been taught works doesn't mean you don't own it, just that you are in a culture that thinks and has taught you it is OK>  

 

Josh wasn't taught that it's okay to fondle young girls or that cheating on your pregnant wife with high-priced porn stars is just fine.  

But he was brought up in a culture that devalues women to the point that they exist only to bear children for and to wait on men.  He was also taught that all sins are equal.  So sneaking a look a topless woman on the internet is no different than knocking around a prostitute in a hotel room in the eyes of Jesus.  Just ask for forgiveness and all will be fine.  Human collateral damage appears not to matter to these "Christians".

[AngelGirl8811]

The sad part about that picture of JB and Michelle is how normal they look for the time. They got to have the normal life and they kept their children from having the experiences that they did. They're creepy now but I think back then they were maybe a little strange but probably pretty normal. 

[Drala]

I originally wrote:  "At his age--especially with all the disgrace he's brought on himself--it's time for him to take responsibility for his life and actions."  This is my way of saying Josh is an adult who needs to own his stuff.  In no way did I intend to suggest he should get off the hook for growing up in a cult and having crappy-ass parents.

That said, I don't think Josh is an irredeemable human being.  Damn close to it, though. 

  

[HarleyQuinn]

Pretty much.

"We made mistakes"  - married 30+ years.

Strict courtships - Ashley Madison. 

[FlamingFundie]

Pickles is reporting that Josh and Anna's family site is down. Did JB forget to pay the bill, or do you think this is a sign of the endtimes?

I suspect that they are not divorcing. I wonder if they did divorce, if JB and Michelle would be so supportive of Anna as they appear to have been. Do you think that Josh has finally gone too far and his parents are hanging him out to dry?

[withaj]

Pickles is reporting that Josh and Anna's family site is down. Did JB forget to pay the bill, or do you think this is a sign of the endtimes?

I suspect that they are not divorcing. I wonder if they did divorce, if JB and Michelle would be so supportive of Anna as they appear to have been. Do you think that Josh has finally gone too far and his parents are hanging him out to dry?

I think it's just a web hosting issue. If nobody has been wiping Josh's social media, I can't imagine why they would bother with the site.

[ksgranola1]

On one of the early bajillion babies & pregnant again, Michelle told of how they met & that it was he who loaded her up on the jesus cycle. She just bought it, hook line & sinker. Would like to know when Gothard got on board, tho.

[Rescinded and Mended]

One thing I've always found interesting about Michelle and Jim Bob is that if you watch them both speak in interviews, Jim Bob will often say something completely rational, only for Michelle to cut across and contradict him. And then he agrees with whatever she proposes, no matter how ridiculous it is. Michelle will say things that are patently ludicrous, but she turns on the baby voice and sounds halfway reasonable when she says them. On the other hand, Jim Bob often makes perfectly reasonable statements about things, but isn't very well-spoken. 

An example from one interview I can think of is where Jim Bob states that he wants his daughters to have job skills so that they can work and support themselves if they have to someday. Michelle cuts across him and says that while her girls are hardworking, they only want to be wives and mothers. Jim Bob then agrees.

Sometimes, I wonder if the reason that fans pay any attention at all is because of this dynamic. Michelle turns on the baby voice and lulls unsuspecting leghumpers with her brand of reasoning, even if it is entirely illogical. 

[FlorenceHamilton]

I was just thinking about Josh. he's been invisible for quite a long time now. I actually wonder how the re-emergence and re-branding will look.

[JenniferJuniper]

I was just thinking about Josh. he's been invisible for quite a long time now. I actually wonder how the re-emergence and re-branding will look.

I'm picturing something like this:

[Exposedknees]

One thing I've always found interesting about Michelle and Jim Bob is that if you watch them both speak in interviews, Jim Bob will often say something completely rational, only for Michelle to cut across and contradict him. And then he agrees with whatever she proposes, no matter how ridiculous it is. Michelle will say things that are patently ludicrous, but she turns on the baby voice and sounds halfway reasonable when she says them. On the other hand, Jim Bob often makes perfectly reasonable statements about things, but isn't very well-spoken. 

An example from one interview I can think of is where Jim Bob states that he wants his daughters to have job skills so that they can work and support themselves if they have to someday. Michelle cuts across him and says that while her girls are hardworking, they only want to be wives and mothers. Jim Bob then agrees.

Sometimes, I wonder if the reason that fans pay any attention at all is because of this dynamic. Michelle turns on the baby voice and lulls unsuspecting leghumpers with her brand of reasoning, even if it is entirely illogical. 

So the "Baby voice" illicits a Pavlovian response from JimBoob to agree  with her. I like this theory. It's her weapon of choice. I wonder if she uses it in the bedroom? ICK!

Honestly I think both JB and Michelle both plugged in to aspects of the "cult" at a perfect storm time in their marriage and it snowballed from there.  I find them both very unsophisticated and easily led.  I mean what an injection to the ego for JB to be a "headship" and feel like a manly man in control( even if he is whipped by the baby voice).  Michelle has a crazy cat lady vibe but with children instead of cat collecting, how appealing to be a revered mom. So then the  TV money came  to validate them and the cultish religion got bigger and bigger and they lost control big time.   In their earlier "we love Jesus" days with 14 kids or whatever, they just seemed kind of LDS or Amish-aka-wholesome. As the family and exposure grew it almost seemed like they were just making stuff up...new weird rules. I feel like these were hindsight in dealing with the molestation. Their lack of sophistication led them to believe that following the Gothard rules were a way to "fix"Josh. Ironically covering up did not work in Duggarville or IBLP. Now they're screwed, too much worldy exposure.

[DuggarWatch]

On one of the early bajillion babies & pregnant again, Michelle told of how they met & that it was he who loaded her up on the jesus cycle. She just bought it, hook line & sinker. Would like to know when Gothard got on board, tho.

Jim Bob was introduced to the Gothard stuff when he attended the Financial Freedom Seminar.  He began selling the program and holding seminars of his own (for money).  He once said that he and Michelle admired the way homeschooled kids using Gothard's ATI program behaved/were disciplined, and wanted that for their kids, too.  But that's not the real reason they got involved with ATI.  The real reason, again, was money.  By the time little Josh was legally required to go to school, the Duggars already had six kids.  Jim Bob didn't want to pay for the expensive, private Christian school he went to as a kid, so they homeschooled.  Here's the current tuition schedule at the school Jim Bob went to:

http://www.shilohsaints.org/admissions/tuition/standard-rate

Interestingly, female teachers and students can wear slacks at that school and boys are photographed wearing shorts!

Public school wasn't an option because Jim Bob's kids wouldn't fit in there with their used clothes, shoes, and Little-House-on-the-Prairie dresses – plus, he would lose control of them as their single, authority figure.  Besides that, the kids were needed at home to do the laundry, the cleaning, the cooking and the child care.  Also, the Duggars didn't want to be under the watchful eyes of school counselors, etc.  

[ksgranola1]

That all makes perfect sense. But I think they got in over their heads by Child#7.

LOL! Rocky.

[AngelGirl8811]

I agree! They would tell you that it was all perfect! 

[DuggarWatch]

Yeah, that's what Michelle said, too.  She cracked up and some neighbor came in to help with the laundry.  The thing is, if she had just sent her kids to school like most people do, she would have had time to get the household chores done without the kids being underfoot and without having to teach them, too.  

[Ellimenopy]

 

Yeah, that's what Michelle said, too.  She cracked up and some neighbor came in to help with the laundry.  The thing is, if she had just sent her kids to school like most people do, she would have had time to get the household chores done without the kids being underfoot and without having to teach them, too.  

 

I think with 7 kids you might never have time to do all the laundry even if the kids were in school and you were a stay at home mom.