Joshley Madison Pt 8: Are We Still Talking About This?

[Sundaymorning]

I'm convinced  JB & M are certain that  sending Josh into the unsafe secular world was the cause of his downfall. Which means they are going to lock the rest of them up in that house even tighter than they already do. It will be interesting to see how Joseph turns out once he comes back from college. IF he comes back. And really, why would he. I can't see him coming back to sleep dorm-style w/his little brothers. 

I agree. J'Chelle and Boob will blame the ebil heathens and their wicked world. I don't think they will do any self-reflection. I wonder whom they blamed when Josh molested those girls, probably the victims. It makes me sick just thinking about it. 

If Josh slips up again, they might cast him out of the family as a "lost cause", but I highly doubt that they themselves will ever change their ways and cult dogmas.

[KSmom]

He has indeed caused his parents - not to mention his wife and kids - a tremendous amount of pain.

But I don't see this causing anyone to rethink anything.  Instead, it will probably bolster their belief that the secular world is a dangerous place, with traps and pitfalls everywhere. I wasn't sure at the time, but looking back now, I think Jim Bob and Michelle were really afraid of Josh going off to DC.  They know him well and probably feared he'd get up to the devil.  (although I doubt they could have imagined the porn star stuff.)

In their minds, Josh does not need treatment.  He needs Jesus, and lots of Him.  This coupled with the fact that no one has seen him anywhere leads me to conclude he is not in any sort of center at all but is instead with someone in the Duggars' trusted circle, isolated and forbidden to leave until sufficient time as passed.

I'll confess I am way more curious about the Return of Josh than I am about Jessa and her precious blessing.  Babies bore me.  This stuff?  Fascinating.

I really can't imagine what it would take for JB and Michelle to do any critical evaluating of themselves? For one thing, up until now  they have gotten pretty good payback for their crazy beliefs. And along with a belief system that builds up JB's ego and gives Michelle a sense of purpose, it has a built-in scapegoat. They are probably going to double down at home (at least attempt to, I really think they are both much too lazy and self-absorbed to be consistent about it, but they will at least make an appearance at it).

And I can't imagine either of the parents, or what we have seen of the older children, even knowing what critical thinking is, much less being able to do it.  

[RoseL]

Sundaymorning-  what struck me as I researched Gothardism and the Duggars beliefs is how in some ways their views are similar to Islam.  Women must dress modestly because men have no control over their sexual urges and if they are attacked it is because they did something, like showing some ankle, to cause lust to overcome the man.  Islam also teaches that women must be completely available for sex with the exceptions of being on your period and for a time after giving birth. FLDS has very similar beliefs.

[Drala]

Sundaymorning-  what struck me as I researched Gothardism and the Duggars beliefs is how in some ways their views are similar to Islam.  Women must dress modestly because men have no control over their sexual urges and if they are attacked it is because they did something, like showing some ankle, to cause lust to overcome the man.  Islam also teaches that women must be completely available for sex with the exceptions of being on your period and for a time after giving birth. FLDS has very similar beliefs.

It's classic patriarchal religious doctrine.

[GiggleOfGirls]

I've always had a completely different read on this.  I've always thought the whole thing was Michelle's doing - she went off the rails and he went along with her and used it for this own benefit.  Then REALLY benefited when it got him so much attention as a politician and later the TV deal.  

I have nothing to back this up, it's strictly a gut feeling so I could be completely off, but I have always felt Michelle was the driving force behind this.  She seems not very bright and lacking in strength so I can see where the idea of a belief system that makes all your decisions for you AND absolves you of responsibility for your actions and lays all that on Jim-Bob officially would be very appealing for someone afraid of autonomy and lacking in critical thinking skills.  Before they started profiting off being famous for having too many children to properly care for I bet JB would have jumped off the bandwagon if she had come to her senses.  

I could be totally wrong - just a vibe I get. 

 

I agree and this has always been my impression as well. Possibly because I've met many QF women in real life and they were generally the ones who became interested in the patriarchy movement to begin with and convinced their husbands headships to go along with the whole thing.

Those women generally wanted to be taken care of, liked babies/children and wanted a lot of them to begin with, and liked the idea of "trusting" God about everything including family size and husband's decisions. 

[Seven Severn]

Maybe they have Josh tucked away at Big Sandy.  He could stay hidden, there's probably a lot of work to be done since HQ will be moving there, and many closed-mouthed fundies to keep an eye on him and report back.

I wonder whether the M-kids have been told that daddy is on a long business trip.  What else could they have been told?

I keep forgetting that Big Sandy is a strong possibility and might be the most likely; there've been all those flights recently (Boob and DQ checking up? Anna visiting?) and, like you said, all those like-minded people to tattle if he gets out of line.

[RoseL]

I keep forgetting that Big Sandy is a strong possibility and might be the most likely; there've been all those flights recently (Boob and DQ checking up? Anna visiting?) and, like you said, all those like-minded people to tattle if he gets out of line.

My bet is there because I think RU isn't special enough for Josh and he would have to interact with mere commoners and with Josh being fundie royalty, he needs special therapy to bring him back into the fold, lol......

[Sundaymorning]

It's almost impossible to tell why J'Chelle and Boob got sucked into this whole Gothard cult thing in first place. I mean, we would have to take their perspective from over 25 years ago, back when no one could have known that they would end up having 19 kids and a tv show.

Also, I'm pretty sure that there are some unknowns in the equation, Boob and J'Chelle are most likely not telling us everything, but a fabricated version of why they went down the rabbit hole. Maybe their real reasons and motivations were completely different from what they claim now.

[Joyleaf]

I really can't imagine what it would take for JB and Michelle to do any critical evaluating of themselves? For one thing, up until now  they have gotten pretty good payback for their crazy beliefs. And along with a belief system that builds up JB's ego and gives Michelle a sense of purpose, it has a built-in scapegoat. They are probably going to double down at home (at least attempt to, I really think they are both much too lazy and self-absorbed to be consistent about it, but they will at least make an appearance at it).

And I can't imagine either of the parents, or what we have seen of the older children, even knowing what critical thinking is, much less being able to do it.  

I don't know if critical thinking is necessary here. JB has shown to be able to "stretch" his own rules if it fits his plans. And now that Josh has become such a big of a problem as a public embarrassment that cost JB a lot of income, I think he might want to crack down harder on him, in the sense of sending him to a proper psychological institution of some kind to make pretty damn sure that this won't happen again.
JB wants this problem solved. Once and for all. And that has nothing to do with him reflecting on what he might have done but just with fixing the problem that Josh is.

[JenniferJuniper]

I don't know if critical thinking is necessary here. JB has shown to be able to "stretch" his own rules if it fits his plans. And now that Josh has become such a big of a problem as a public embarrassment that cost JB a lot of income, I think he might want to crack down harder on him, in the sense of sending him to a proper psychological institution of some kind to make pretty damn sure that this won't happen again.JB wants this problem solved. Once and for all. And that has nothing to do with him reflecting on what he might have done but just with fixing the problem that Josh is.

They don't believe in psychiatry.   Even if they did, you can't just commit someone to a mental hospital because they've pissed you off.  Wherever he is hiding, Josh is there voluntarily.

[Joyleaf]

They don't believe in psychiatry.   Even if they did, you can't just commit someone to a mental hospital because they've pissed you off.  Wherever he is hiding, Josh is there voluntarily.

I'm pretty sure JB would make it known to Josh what could happen if he doesn't go voluntarily. And be really committed to getting "better".

JB knows that he this has to be done "right" in the public eye or there won't be a way back for him in the spotlight.

[SportsgalAnnie]

I pretty much agree with you.  It's like the Wizard of Oz, once you see behind the curtain and realize the great and powerful Oz is just a humbug pretender, you can't go back to believing that Oz is anything more than a pretender ever again.  The twisted cult beliefs, mixed with his parents' parading of their sexuality constantly in front of the children, and Josh's sense of entitlement as the first born son, seemingly created a teenage sexual predator.  As an adult, I see Josh as more run of the mill bored husband, who has a very weak moral compass.  And that's why I think that whenever he is released from rehab/punishment/time out, he will return to the fold of his family, announce he has fought with Satan and cast him out of his heart, and play the part of the prodigal and repentant son.  He doesn't have the inner fortitude to stand on his own (his dad made sure of that).  Maybe if this were John David instead - he might have the strength to say "I'm going to do my own thing.  Like it or lump it."  But not Josh - he might have been the firstborn, but he doesn't have a lot of the attributes of most first born kids.  He's not a natural leader.  So he'll return home, duly chastised, and wear the facade (at least until he cracks and goes rogue once more).

completely off topic but you must see Wicked 

[Karma]

completely off topic but you must see Wicked 

Yes, totally (to quote Jill), if you get the chance, definitely see Wicked.  Such a great story, so clever.

[boxedin]

Yes, totally (to quote Jill), if you get the chance, definitely see Wicked.  Such a great story, so clever.

I've wanted to see this. Thanks for the reminder.

[apandaaries]

Sundaymorning-  what struck me as I researched Gothardism and the Duggars beliefs is how in some ways their views are similar to Islam.  Women must dress modestly because men have no control over their sexual urges and if they are attacked it is because they did something, like showing some ankle, to cause lust to overcome the man.  Islam also teaches that women must be completely available for sex with the exceptions of being on your period and for a time after giving birth. FLDS has very similar beliefs.

I'd like to do a nested quote with Drala's statement, but this will do.  Any kind of fundamentalist, patriarchal culture can and often will impose terrible shame and punishment upon women for the sheer atrocity of being born female.  Here's a story about Buddhist monks harassing female activists: http://jezebel.com/burmese-womens-rights-activists-get-death-threats-from-1740014344

I don't know if critical thinking is necessary here. JB has shown to be able to "stretch" his own rules if it fits his plans. And now that Josh has become such a big of a problem as a public embarrassment that cost JB a lot of income, I think he might want to crack down harder on him, in the sense of sending him to a proper psychological institution of some kind to make pretty damn sure that this won't happen again.JB wants this problem solved. Once and for all. And that has nothing to do with him reflecting on what he might have done but just with fixing the problem that Josh is.

Finally, I agree that JB wants this problem solved, but I'm not sure if he's capable of the kind of thought which will yield a productive answer.  He's not capable of that kind of self-reflection, at least from what we've seen (and we've seen and read quite a bit by this point).  I bet we'll see both our turkeys this Thanksgiving -- JB and Joshley.  Can't wait to see how the ever-so-PR-savvy-Duggars will spin this. 

Wicked sounds excellent.  If you haven't seen Book of Mormon, you should really do so!

 

[Sundaymorning]

I agree with those who say that Boob wants the problem with Josh solved, and he even might be willing to try things which usually aren't up his alley. However, I doubt he would want to risk Josh realizing how he much was screwed up and over by his parents and Gothard. Joshy leaving the cult, or even worse, publicly speaking out against his upbringing and his parents would put the final nail in the coffin of Boobs hopes for a comeback.

[Drala]

I keep forgetting that Big Sandy is a strong possibility and might be the most likely; there've been all those flights recently (Boob and DQ checking up? Anna visiting?) and, like you said, all those like-minded people to tattle if he gets out of line.

So...do the Gothardites run reformatory-type camps for wayward members? Some cults are famous for this sort of thing. (l'm thinking of the Scientologists.)  Are there any accounts from former members to suggest Gothardites have that level of organization and secrecy?  Three or more months of reindoctrination would take some focused resources.  The fact that Josh hasn't been seen suggests he's being kept in strict seclusion.

[Bad Wolf]

Cheating in this reality doesn't usually get you sent to a residential rehab, so I'm wondering what the bigger issue is. Porn addiction, which was later deleted, or are they going to address the molestation?  Probably just hard labor and lots of prayer will fix whatever's wrong. Josh is a sleaze, but he deserves real help, and so do Anna and the kids.

Wonder if he's on Duggar house arrest, and that's why Anna looks so good. She's got some control.

[HarleyQuinn]

I guess I'm the only one that doesn't think Anna "looks good" at the moment. She lost baby weight, yes, but from the pictures I've seen of her. I don't see a glowing look or a look of freedom. She's stuck under JB's headship while Josh is gone (since she's in Arkansas) and she'll probably be forced to submit immediately upon Josh's return. It's sick to me, I feel like she's almost a slave.

[Drala]

I guess I'm the only one that doesn't think Anna "looks good" at the moment. She lost baby weight, yes, but from the pictures I've seen of her. I don't see a glowing look or a look of freedom. She's stuck under JB's headship while Josh is gone (since she's in Arkansas) and she'll probably be forced to submit immediately upon Josh's return. It's sick to me, I feel like she's almost a slave.

The fact that Anna doesn't clearly appear to be involved in Josh's "rehab" effort makes me doubt somewhat  that he's at at legit treatment facility for something like porn addiction. After 90 days, he should have done some sort of joint marital work, assuming best practice treatment protocols apply.  If tabloid rumors a few weeks back are true that Josh begged Anna not to leave him, this suggests joint marital counseling took place.  It could have happened on Anna's trip to Florida. 

[HarleyQuinn]

The fact that Anna doesn't clearly appear to be involved in Josh's "rehab" effort makes me doubt somewhat  that he's at at legit treatment facility for something like porn addiction. After 90 days, he should have done some sort of joint marital work, assuming best practice treatment protocols apply.  If tabloid rumors a few weeks back are true that Josh begged Anna not to leave him, this suggests joint marital counseling took place.  It could have happened on Anna's trip to Florida. 

I didn't think Anna actually went to FL though. Jim Bob and one of the twins went to get a truck or something, but I didn't think Anna was actually placed there. Plus, there was that ultra sleazy picture of JB and Meredith standing in front of a Lowe's that basically said "I have Meredith, in AR, in front of one of my TLC sponsors." I don't doubt that Smugger is in a legit rehab place either. he isn't, and Anna is probably getting her own "counsel" from J'chelle about how she didn't submit enough and caused this. 

[singsingsing]

I think there are things about Josh that the Duggars know that we don't. They must have thought he was pretty far gone to actually send him to rehab. I don't think it was just for show, otherwise it would've been a Rob Ford situation where he was seen roaming the streets, stopping in at restaurants, and out in like two weeks.

[EmCatlyn]

Cheating in this reality doesn't usually get you sent to a residential rehab, so I'm wondering what the bigger issue is. Porn addiction, which was later deleted, or are they going to address the molestation?  Probably just hard labor and lots of prayer will fix whatever's wrong. Josh is a sleaze, but he deserves real help, and so do Anna and the kids.

Wonder if he's on Duggar house arrest, and that's why Anna looks so good. She's got some control.

If he is under "house arrest" she would still have to submit to him.  I think he is not with his family, wherever he might be.

And the porn addiction was undeleted.  It is now part of the official reason for his rehab.

I doubt he is getting any help except lots of prayer and guilt. I doubt that the family sees the molestation as a different issue from the porn or the infidelity.  In all three "sins" he is not controlling his lust and giving in to Satan.

As for what others have said about Anna being lectured on her duties, I am sure it has happened but not necessarily in an unsupportive environment.  There is also no reason to assume that she hasn't been to see Josh or to have joint therapy (wherever he is).  The Duggars have cars as well as planes 

[Drala]

Emmalyn:  If Anna and Josh received joint therapy, that would suggest to me that Josh is getting something other than prayer and guilt as his "rehab".  The fundie model for "treatment" seems to be prayer, preaching, personal counsel and lots of manual labor.  Are you saying marital counseling would be included in that?  

[EmCatlyn]

Google The Ranch in Nunnelly, TN.  I doubt you could get on the property and just roam around. 

It is at least a seven hour drive to Tontitown and we have seen no plane activity in that direction.  (Nashville would be a couple of hours away.). Not a bad choice, otherwise.  Though it looks pricey.