Can someone tell me what fundy-lite actually is?

[OkToBeTakei]

A different perspective.

nogaymarriage.wordpress.com/

But now some gays, because they grew up with the ideal of the white wedding (despite the fact only girls wear the dresses) and religion-based monogamy, want to stomp on the brakes of all this progress. Let’s drop all this wonderful freedom and mimic the ceremonies that celebrate the ancient, oppressive domination of the Church over men, and of men over women.

I say all this because of the big deal made over the difference between civil unions and “marriage.†Gay activists are rejecting civil unions that are literally identical to state-enforced marriage contracts except in name, on principle. This is because they want to mimic the religious heterosexuals that hate them. It’s also to send the message that gays can be just as boring and domestic as religious weirdos; a desperate desire to be seen as a “traditional family.†Sorry, honey, as long as your junk don’t interlock, you’re not. This has transcended mere legal equality and the convenience of standard-form contracts and crossed into ceremonial jealously.

It’s clear to me that eventually men will be able to marry men and women will be able to marry women in all of the United States, it’s just not clear exactly when. It’s just that I am not very excited about the prospect. In fact, even being homosexual, I actually oppose gay marriage. Not only that — I oppose it as a gay person.

I am most annoyed by straight people’s calls for it. These people who postpone their own marriages until same-sex couples can be married are just being abysmally silly. Their gay friends must love the drama of it all. I have been noticing more discussion of this lately, and now with the passing of Proposition 8 in California and the lesser known Proposition 2 in Florida, both of which enacted a constitutional ban on same-sex marriages, the outrage has reached a crescendo. Finally, Keith Olbermann forced my hand — I can no longer keep silent on the issue of gay marriage and why it is stupid, awful, and undesirable.

I found this site when googling as I was trying to find an article I read around the time Gay Marriage was going through parliament in the UK last month. There was a surprising amount of gay people against it. But now I can't find it. Some of the reasoning was similar to the above if the language was a tad less colourful.

I'm unsure if people who are undecided about gay marriage think on this level or if it is because of latent prejudice. Personally I am not going to force my opinion on anybody. I would vote yes to gay marriage in order to give a choice. But I do not see accepting gay marriage as a badge of honour in accepting LGBT people in general. To me it is almost like NOW you are acceptable because you can get married like the "normal" (sarcasm) people. That is great if that is what they want. For me it has always been acceptable to love another person.

Maybe this is because I am not married :think:

[valsa]

To me it is almost like NOW you are acceptable because you can get married like the "normal" (sarcasm) people.

I've personally never seen this view in the U.S. It's always "I don't have a problem with gay people but I still think marriage is between one man and one woman", not the other way around. Very reminiscent of "I don't have a problem with black people, I just wouldn't want one dating my daughter".

[formergothardite]

The problem with that man's view is that he doesn't appear to realize that there are some very religious gay people. There are people who want the whole religious ceremony with a marriage, not because they are trying to mimic the religious hetrosexuals that hate them, they are religous themselves. This isn't jealousy, anymore than it was jealousy for me to want a church wedding because that was my religious beliefs at that time.

I don't want gay marriage because I am saying NOW you are acceptable because you can get married like me, I'm saying, I want you to have the same choices and opportunities that I have. If a gay couple doesn't want to get married, they don't have to. If they want a civil ceremony, they can do that. If they want a religious marriage, they should be able to do that. There is no reasons gay couples should not have the ability to get married(and in white even if they are guys) if that is what they want. If their religious beliefs lead them to want a church wedding, why should someone elses religious beliefs deny them that? Gay couples having a religious ceremony will bring no harm to anyone.

[OkToBeTakei]

I've personally never seen this view in the U.S. It's always "I don't have a problem with gay people but I still think marriage is between one man and one woman", not the other way around. Very reminiscent of "I don't have a problem with black people, I just wouldn't want one dating my daughter".

I think the author of the blog is actually American. But yes the one man one woman malarkey is common here also especially from the religious aspect.

[valsa]

I think the author of the blog is actually American. But yes the one man one woman malarkey is common here also especially from the religious aspect.

I have no idea if that guy is lying about being gay (for my own peace of mind, I hope so) but even if he is just a gay moron, his views are about as mainstream and common as, say, PP and Zsu's, and about as uninformed.

[OkToBeTakei]

The problem with that man's view is that he doesn't appear to realize that there are some very religious gay people. There are people who want the whole religious ceremony with a marriage, not because they are trying to mimic the religious hetrosexuals that hate them, they are religous themselves. This isn't jealousy, anymore than it was jealousy for me to want a church wedding because that was my religious beliefs at that time.

I don't want gay marriage because I am saying NOW you are acceptable because you can get married like me, I'm saying, I want you to have the same choices and opportunities that I have. If a gay couple doesn't want to get married, they don't have to. If they want a civil ceremony, they can do that. If they want a religious marriage, they should be able to do that. There is no reasons gay couples should not have the ability to get married(and in white even if they are guys) if that is what they want. If their religious beliefs lead them to want a church wedding, why should someone elses religious beliefs deny them that? Gay couples having a religious ceremony will bring no harm to anyone.

Yes it is about choice. Pure and simple.

I probably was/am one of those zealot type hetero jumping up and down about gay marriage as he describes. I just found it really interesting on reading similar views around the time of the gay marriage vote in the UK that this type of thinking was actually quite common. I think the equality issue is really about choice. The choice to marry, to have a civil ceremony or not. I naively had picked out plenty of hats for all the weddings I was looking forward to, to find out from quite a few friends they held precisely my view of marriage. Yawnful :lol:

[formergothardite]

This just sounds like someone wrote this to "prove" that even gay people don't want gay marriage so people should stop trying to give equality to gay couples.

[Guest Anonymous]

Archie Bunker had a lot of opinions that he was firm on. He was quite the bigot...... As are neo-nazis, Opus Dei, and The Phelps clan. All are quite firm in their beliefs.

I'd rather learn about the subject - both sides - and make an educated opinion rather than following the herd. If that makes me a bigot in your eyes, then so be it.

1004srs, seriously, this thread was one of the first you posted in when you joined the forum in 2011. You have posted elsewhere that you are a strict RC, previously looked into becoming a nun, are stricter in religious observance with your family than in your family of origin, and where you live you see the WBC on an almost daily basis. You must have had quite a bit of exposure to the issues around gay marriage with that background.... are you a very slow learner or is there something you just don't want to admit to us? :?

[OkToBeTakei]

I have no idea if that guy is lying about being gay (for my own peace of mind, I hope so) but even if he is just a gay moron, his views are about as mainstream and common as, say, PP and Zsu's, and about as uninformed.

THAT would be very interesting to find out. His views are certainly extreme enough to question. Although what led me to that was looking for a series of articles which whilst not quite as extreme were certainly addressing a similar theme around the time of the Feb 5th vote.

This I think is more a political statement on the same issue.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... t-equality

[Eternalbluepearl]

Of course gay people should be able to get married. And it shouldn't be called "gay marriage" but "marriage." Duh.

[yewchapel]

I know a lot of gay people who want to get married, so it doesn't matter what that guy thinks. He is free to not get married, but gay people who want to get married should be able to do so.

[OkToBeTakei]

This just sounds like someone wrote this to "prove" that even gay people don't want gay marriage so people should stop trying to give equality to gay couples.

nogaymarriage.wordpress.com/2008/11/11/why-i-oppose-gay-marriage/#comments

Interestingly the comments go both ways although some are quite sensible. But note. He does not answer or comment on the comments Hmm. Whatever the purpose of this blog the writer whatever his sexual persuasion is pretty offensive in some of his writings if you look at previous entries.

[formergothardite]

THAT would be very interesting to find out. His views are certainly extreme enough to question. Although what led me to that was looking for a series of articles which whilst not quite as extreme were certainly addressing a similar theme around the time of the Feb 5th vote.

This I think is more a political statement on the same issue.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... t-equality

Well that person has a rather dismal view of marriage.

Of course, there are many long and happy relationships, but marriage is a contract about property. As for procreation, well, yes, two years of great sex, the baby, then someone sexts someone in the office. Someone writes those poignant letters to a Pamela Stephenson Connolly-type: "We couldn't keep our hands off each other and now I just want six hours sleep." People work it out, stay together because of the children, or because their fear of being alone is greater than their hatred of their once beloved.

It is like she is saying she thinks marriage is so horrible so then no gay people should be able to get married. What, are gay people suppossed to be so dumb that they can't look at marriage and decide for themselves if they want it?

Equal rights to monotony, monogamy and vol-au-vents is just not my idea of modernisation or equality

Well, I'm sorry, but life isn't all about her and how she feels towards marriage.

equal rights were not achieved. Gay people can't get married in many churches

Sure gay people can't get married in all churches. Neither can divorced people. And neither can black people. Doesn't mean that allowing gay marriage isn't giving people who are gay equality.

Her arguments were all massive fails and just shows how self-absorbed she is.

[OkToBeTakei]

:lol:

She is a cheery advertisement for marriage indeed. But in reality she is actually just a very left leaning journalist trying to take a shot at the Tories. all journalists are self absorbed generally when writing opinion.

What churches can black people not get married in?

[formergothardite]

There was a church in Mississippi that last year refused to let a black couple get married there because they didn't want to set the precedent of allowing black couples to marry at the all white church.

[yewchapel]

Re UK marriage equality legislation which is currently going through Parliament, all religious groups except the Church of England (aka the state church) will be able to marry gay couples if they want to do so. Quakers, Unitarians and Reform Jewish groups have already said that they want to.

The reason the Church of England won't be able to (unless they change their canon law) is because they can marry couples without a separate application to a registrar (unlike all other religious and civil weddings) and so it would need separate legislation anyway, even if the church changed canon law and was willing to marry gay couples anyway. But currently many CoE churches bless gay couples who have had civil partnerships (including my own) and want to be able to marry gay couples.

And a church in the UK who refused to marry black people would be breaking the law.

[OkToBeTakei]

There was a church in Mississippi that last year refused to let a black couple get married there because they didn't want to set the precedent of allowing black couples to marry at the all white church.

:shock: As yewchapel said that would be illegal here. It never fails to amaze me and not in a good way that these things happen in a country that I always assumed was so culturally like to my own. Every day I get more confused.

[OkToBeTakei]

Re UK marriage equality legislation which is currently going through Parliament, all religious groups except the Church of England (aka the state church) will be able to marry gay couples if they want to do so. Quakers, Unitarians and Reform Jewish groups have already said that they want to.

The reason the Church of England won't be able to (unless they change their canon law) is because they can marry couples without a separate application to a registrar (unlike all other religious and civil weddings) and so it would need separate legislation anyway, even if the church changed canon law and was willing to marry gay couples anyway. But currently many CoE churches bless gay couples who have had civil partnerships (including my own) and want to be able to marry gay couples.

And a church in the UK who refused to marry black people would be breaking the law.

Is this similar to posting of 'banns' in Scotland? What is the stance of the Catholic church?

[yewchapel]

Is this similar to posting of 'banns' in Scotland? What is the stance of the Catholic church?

Yes, the Church of England has to publish banns 3 times before they can marry a couple (which is why churches sometimes have to say no on Don't Tell The Bride, because there's not enough times to publish the banns and it wouldn't be legal). This is only in the Church of England - Catholic churches can marry people, as can all other churches, but an application to the registrar still needs to be made. Because the Church of England is the state church, the priest acts as priest and registrar in one, almost. It sounds like the Church of Scotland works in a similar way, obviously with a minister not a priest. The Church in Wales has been disestablished so it must work differently there, and in Northern Ireland too.

[formergothardite]

:shock: As yewchapel said that would be illegal here. It never fails to amaze me and not in a good way that these things happen in a country that I always assumed was so culturally like to my own. Every day I get more confused.

Well, the church's actions were frowned upon by most of the country and they eventually caved and said they were sorry(the couple still had to get married at another church) but here churches can decide who they allow to get married in their buildings, which is why all the people shrieking about how if we allow gay marriage we will be trampling on religious rights and churches will be forced to marry gay couples is nothing more than a lie. My husband is divorced and a good chunk of the churches in my area will not marry divorced people, so we had to find a church that would marry us. Churches still get to teach that divorced people who remarry are living in sin. There is a person from the IFB church I went to as a child who called my mom when she found out I was getting married to a divorced man and asked how she felt having her child commit adultery. :roll: So churches will still be able to teach that being gay is a sin, they just won't be able to stop other churches from marrying gay couples.

I suspect that 1004srs and Fundie Lite only have religious reasons to waffle or be undecided on gay marriage and they don't want to admit that because if they did they would then have to explain why they get to force their religion on other people. I have never heard anyone give a good, non-religious reason to not allow gay marriage. Handcuff tried but it just ended up with toaster marriage, claiming that words never have new definitions, and then a flounce. :lol:

[OkToBeTakei]

Well, the church's actions were frowned upon by most of the country and they eventually caved and said they were sorry(the couple still had to get married at another church) but here churches can decide who they allow to get married in their buildings, which is why all the people shrieking about how if we allow gay marriage we will be trampling on religious rights and churches will be forced to marry gay couples is nothing more than a lie. My husband is divorced and a good chunk of the churches in my area will not marry divorced people, so we had to find a church that would marry us. Churches still get to teach that divorced people who remarry are living in sin. There is a person from the IFB church I went to as a child who called my mom when she found out I was getting married to a divorced man and asked how she felt having her child commit adultery. :roll: So churches will still be able to teach that being gay is a sin, they just won't be able to stop other churches from marrying gay couples.

I suspect that 1004srs and Fundie Lite only have religious reasons to waffle or be undecided on gay marriage and they don't want to admit that because if they did they would then have to explain why they get to force their religion on other people. I have never heard anyone give a good, non-religious reason to not allow gay marriage. Handcuff tried but it just ended up with toaster marriage, claiming that words never have new definitions, and then a flounce. :lol:

Yes I did say that wondered if any thought other than prejudice/religion would be a reason to not be decisive about gay marriage. You may indeed be right. Personally my perspective and interest is because I have a big fat zero interest in marriage at all. Therefore for me choice is the most important aspect. I always had the choice to marry the choice to not. My friends do not. Yet.

[OkToBeTakei]

Yes, the Church of England has to publish banns 3 times before they can marry a couple (which is why churches sometimes have to say no on Don't Tell The Bride, because there's not enough times to publish the banns and it wouldn't be legal). This is only in the Church of England - Catholic churches can marry people, as can all other churches, but an application to the registrar still needs to be made. Because the Church of England is the state church, the priest acts as priest and registrar in one, almost. It sounds like the Church of Scotland works in a similar way, obviously with a minister not a priest. The Church in Wales has been disestablished so it must work differently there, and in Northern Ireland too.

What does irk me, although in general it is a huge step in the right direction is the divorce laws they are discussing.

[1004srs]

Actually, I didn't flounce or say I was against gay marriage. Nope. Didn't do either. I just have a life that needs more attention than Free Jinger at times. (gasp!!!)

I did say I waffle on certain hot topics. I tend not to go with the herd, I tend to make my own opinion based on my beliefs, education (fairly highly educated by the way), experiences, etc.

[formergothardite]

Actually, I didn't flounce or say I was against gay marriage. Nope. Didn't do either. I just have a life that needs more attention than Free Jinger at times. (gasp!!!)

I did say I waffle on certain hot topics. I tend not to go with the herd, I tend to make my own opinion based on my beliefs, education (fairly highly educated by the way), experiences, etc.

You said this:

And.....I am torn on gay marriage

And then refused to say why you were torn on gay marriage. If you are really wanting to be educated on the subject and make an educated decision, you could explain why you are torn on gay marriage. If you can't even explain that, then you are going with the herd, you are following mindlessly to the point that you can't explain why you waffle on a subject.

I don't think anyone accused you of flouncing, just that there are no good non-religious reasons to be torn on gay marriage and that if you are going to religious reasons to not give equality you will also have to explain why you get to force your religion onto other people. And, IMO, that it why you have refused to say why you are torn on the subject of marriage equality. But only you can tell us the real reason you are waffling on giving equality to gay couples.

[yewchapel]

OkToBeTakei, I'm also annoyed by the change to the divorce laws. Sexual fidelity matters to gay people too.

1004srs, I used to be on the fence about marriage equality. But I didn't come to the conclusion I did because of following the herd, but simply because marriage equality is about fairness and treating people equally.