Police officers killed in Dallas

[Snarkylark]

35 minutes ago, ADoyle90815 said:

 The sickening thing is that this was a very peaceful protest until those evil snipers showed up. When you see protesters and police taking selfies together, you knew it was a peaceful event.

That's the thing- I think most LEOs and citizens of all races get along just fine. But just like there are a few bad cops, there are also a few bad guys. I think it SEEMS like the world is full of hate but I really think most people are decent human beings who would never kill another human. The media does a great job of dividing us instead of uniting us. 

[samira_catlover]

Can't.  Just Can't. Brainz has mercifully shut down except for vital functions for a time.

*lights candles and incense for the protection of sworn peace officers who risk their lives daily---and for such lousy salaries!--to protect citizens.*

*lights more candles and incense for the safety and protection of all people that are oppressed and in danger, in any land*

*sets out a fire extinguisher, and still more candles and incense for everyone who mourns their dead ones, in all lands: may you get grace and heart-healing and justice*

*checks the garage sprinkler system, and fires up the BBQ grill for a whole LOT of incense, because out of candles---and burns a couple of pounds of cinnamon and stuff, in frantic prayers that the violence shall end*

[Alicja]

I disagree with that statement. Rape is about power. It doesn't matter what the victim is wearing in most cases. As another poster said, it's also a crime.  PO shootings may also involve power trips to some extent. Idk. But again, he has literally a millisecond to decide to shoot or not. It's a lot different watching it back. Show police officers respect, fear for your life, do what they say, and you probably will get home safely. Yes, there are bad POs out there. And yes, there are bad guys, too. And white men are shot by police, too. 

No one should have to fear for their lives in the presence of the people who are sworn to protect them. That is the problem.

[Kailash]

1 hour ago, Snarkylark said:

I disagree with that statement. Rape is about power. It doesn't matter what the victim is wearing in most cases. As another poster said, it's also a crime.  PO shootings may also involve power trips to some extent. Idk. But again, he has literally a millisecond to decide to shoot or not. It's a lot different watching it back. Show police officers respect, fear for your life, do what they say, and you probably will get home safely. Yes, there are bad POs out there. And yes, there are bad guys, too. And white men are shot by police, too. 

Probably get home safely? Probably isn't good enough. As far as rape being a crime, murdering someone is also a crime, so I'm not sure that makes the point you want to make there.

If you think police violence is about anything except power, we're not going to agree on much. In all the videos I've watched, the black men were subdued, and THEN shot. And yes, white men are shot by police too. Men are raped too. What's your point?

[laPapessaGiovanna]

15 minutes ago, Snarkylark said:

But with the culture that has developed I can't say I blame POs for taking action of they feel their life is in danger. I just can't. It's definitely not a job I could or want to do. 

Except that they had no reason to fear for their life. The two men had not even as much a touched their guns. Philando Castile had no criminal record, his tail light apparently wasn't even busted and he was doing what the law requires from him identifying himself showing an ID, plus a child was sitting 50cm behind him on the car. But they all were black and henceforth a potential imminent threat, right?

Personally I was pulled out only twice in my whole life. You can absolutely call it white young innocuous looking woman privilege. Mr laPG gets routinely pulled over when he drives outside his more habitual roads where POs know him. It's because he has the male version of the resting bitch face, a very big tattoo on a bicep, shaved head and looks like a Eastern European (and it's even worse when he is with his surlier and bulkier colleague they truly look like stereotypical members of an Eastern European criminal organisation). This said I don't fear a PO would ever shoot him. It's not because he is white (most dangerous people here are white) nor because POs are better or less racist here than in the US but because they aren't scared shitless of their own shadow because there aren't guns everywhere. And bad cops (there always are, here too) would never be able to claim such a justification for not doing their job that's to keep the order not to break it endangering and killing people. 

Looking from this far I may be sorely wrong and I apologise in advance, but it really seems that very few privileged people (minorities and LEOs aren't among them) profit from gun proliferation, everyone else is worse for it. Maybe there's something you can do about it as citizens, other than giving your young people "the talk" basically reinforcing the idea that profiling by race is to be expected.

[sophie10130]

Police shooting black folks is DEFINITELY about a power imbalance. The police have all the power, black men and women have none. 

I think everyone hears the story that "Oh well he went for his pocket and it could have been a gun so I had to shoot" narrative. But that doesn't make any sense. Because how many white people are successfully detained? And I mean successful as the very low standard of not getting killed. 

Dylann Roof was successfully detained. The Aurora shooter was successfully detained. I can go on and on and on. These men were mass murderers. Not some father at a traffic stop. They were known to be actual murderers. And they were taken in alive and well by the police force.

There are parallels to rape cases and to black men getting shot. First, the victim is always judged. In the rape cases they go after what she was wearing. They talk about her promiscuous past. They say she was drunk or was known to be a partier. Does any of that matter if she gets raped? No. Did her rights mysteriously get taken away when she drank a few shots? NO.

They do the same thing to black men. They call them thugs. They pull up any previous arrest. And when they say that one in three black men born today can expect to go to prison at some point in their lifetime, there's a decent chance that they have a previous arrest on their record. Especially in cities. They drudge up any kind of home strife. Were their parents divorced? Was their mom married to their dad at all? Did his parents fight? Were there domestic disturbances? They pull up the hardest looking picture of them they can find to fit the narrative. They say "Well what was he even doing out so late at night?" They talk about what he was wearing in the case of Trayvon and they say things like "He was no saint." Does that mean these men deserved to die? NO.

 

Below is a link where someone compiled the list of things black folks shouldn't do in order to not get killed by police. Notice, these are not things that WHITE people also can't do. Just black people. These lists exist everywhere. They are tongue in cheek because such statements are ludicrous when you look at the situations in which these people were murdered.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/12/25-things-black-people-shouldnt-do-around-cops.html?mid=twitter_nymag

[Mecca]

2 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

I disagree with that statement. Rape is about power. It doesn't matter what the victim is wearing in most cases. As another poster said, it's also a crime.  PO shootings may also involve power trips to some extent. Idk. But again, he has literally a millisecond to decide to shoot or not. It's a lot different watching it back. Show police officers respect, fear for your life, do what they say, and you probably will get home safely. Yes, there are bad POs out there. And yes, there are bad guys, too. And white men are shot by police, too. 

What in the world? Fear for your life? Probably? If a person complies, there should be no probably about it. There should be no fearing for one's life. The stopped person should arrive safely and alive to their location. That is what an officer should be trained to do. 

And yes, white men get shot too, but you do realize that the system in general is stacked against minorities, right? It is not just getting pulled over that is the issue. It is the system as a whole. 

[Snarkylark]

19 minutes ago, Mecca said:

What in the world? Fear for your life? Probably? If a person complies, there should be no probably about it. There should be no fearing for one's life. The stopped person should arrive safely and alive to their location. That is what an officer should be trained to do. 

And yes, white men get shot too, but you do realize that the system in general is stacked against minorities, right? It is not just getting pulled over that is the issue. It is the system as a whole. 

I say "probably" because obviously there's no guarantee anymore that one will get home safely if he complies. I do understand that there are disparities when it comes to white/black men being pulled over. The point I'm trying to make is that violence AGAINST POs is not going to make this end it will only make it worse. That does not give police the right to profile black men, either. 

[sophie10130]

@Snarkylark No one here is advocating for the violence against police officers. I think most of us just want a smidge more outrage towards the black folks that get killed at the hands of cops every 28 hours. 

This is the worst mass murder of Police Officers since 9/11. For black folks, this is just another week, another month, another year. And nothing is getting better. Actually, it's getting steadily worse.

Like I said before, I will raise these people up because I know the media will raise up the Police Officers more. They already have. The outrage these officers have gotten so far should have been the outrage we had for Tamir Rice. A boy. But instead, they painted him as a thug and that was that. Case closed. He deserved to die for playing at the playground.

We know what happened to the police officers was wrong. But everyone knows that. We just want everyone to know that killing unarmed (or legally armed, as was the case for Philando Castile) black people is just as wrong! Because a lot of people don't see it that way. They want to justify it when there is absolutely no justification. We've seen it in this very thread.

[iweartanktops]

8 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

Teach your children that "Stop, don't move!" means stop and don't fucking move!!! And "hands up" means put your hands UP!!! How does a PO know you aren't going for a weapon? He doesn't and he only has a split second to make that decision whether he goes home to his family or you do. I'm Caucasian and you can bet I'd be telling any PO that pulled me over every step I'm taking and every move I'm making so I don't get shot! 

I didn't watch the video of the latest officer involved shootings because I don't want that in my head. The media bringing up arrest records sucks but it's also likely what information the officers had when they made the stops and unfortunately may put them more on edge. I don't know all the particulars in the officer involved shootings but I do know "stop!" means STOP!

It pains me to see you posting your opinions on what Black people should do in order to survive a traffic stop, but you won't even watch the latest videos because you "didn't want that" in your head. Do you understand how absurd that is? 

"I don't know all of the particulars... " yeah, but you have plenty of advice, huh? 

7 hours ago, Mecca said:

Honestly, this is easier said than done. An example I have talked about before on here in the threads regarding profiling and Muslims. Short story version: 9/11. Husband was profiled because of his appearance when we were coming back into the country from our vacation in Canada. It did not matter that we are citizens and had our passports and DL. One officer was screaming at us to get out of the car with our hands up while the other officer was screaming at us to stay in the car. I asked one officer what I should do only to be told to be quiet. Ever have a gun held to your head while being screamed at? So yeah, again easier said than done.

I am not trying to be an asshole here. I am trying to give a different perspective. Sometimes it does not matter what one does when the person on the other end is not all together, not been properly trained, or maybe has some sort of bias. I do not think all officers are bad. My BIL is an officer. I have worked with officers closely in both of my careers. I undertand their job is difficult. I get sometimes they have to protect themselves and the public, but sometimes it just does not matter if a person does as they are told. Sometimes people that should not die actually do die because of the actions of the officer, not because of their own actions. 

And I just quoted this because it's true. And the police often approach us very aggressively. It catches you off guard. I'm the type to cower, but I understand why some people will immediately get defensive. Flight or fight kicks in when police are pointing guns at you. I know from experience. And you won't dig up any dirt on  me except for parking tickets. 

I'm so tired. 

[Snarkylark]

1 minute ago, sophie10130 said:

@Snarkylark No one here is advocating for the violence against police officers. I think most of us just want a smidge more outrage towards the black folks that get killed at the hands of cops every 28 hours. 

This is the worst mass murder of Police Officers since 9/11. For black folks, this is just another week, another month, another year. And nothing is getting better. Actually, it's getting steadily worse.

Like I said before, I will raise these people up because I know the media will raise up the Police Officers more. They already have. The outrage these officers have gotten so far should have been the outrage we had for Tamir Rice. A boy. But instead, they painted him as a thug and that was that. Case closed. He deserved to die for playing at the playground.

We know what happened to the police officers was wrong. But everyone knows that. We just want everyone to know that killing unarmed (or legally armed, as was the case for Philando Castile) black people is just as wrong! Because a lot of people don't see it that way. They want to justify it when there is absolutely no justification. We've seen it in this very thread.

I don't disagree

[sophie10130]

4 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

And I just quoted this because it's true. And the police often approach us very aggressively. It catches you off guard. I'm the type to cower, but I understand why some people will immediately get defensive. Flight or fight kicks in when police are pointing guns at you. I know from experience. And you won't dig up any dirt on  me except for parking tickets. 

I'm so tired. 

I can't even imagine.

I'm a white person and have not had many run ins with the police. But every run in I have had has been emotionally charged for NO REASON. I have never felt unsafe in my community except when I've been approached by cops because they are usually yelling and waving hands around and cussing.

We were on my back patio on the 3rd just drinking and playing cards and THREE police officers walk back there without announcing themselves at all. Two of them had their hands hovering over their service weapons. They asked if we knew about anyone in the area lighting off fireworks. Seriously? You need to put your hands on your weapons for a routine disturbance call on the weekend of the 4th? That is not how you de-escalate a situation. It scared the absolute shit out of me.

[Snarkylark]

2 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

It pains me to see you posting your opinions on what Black people should do in order to survive a traffic stop, but you won't even watch the latest videos because you "didn't want that" in your head. Do you understand how absurd that is? 

"I don't know all of the particulars... " yeah, but you have plenty of advice, huh? 

And I just quoted this because it's true. And the police often approach us very aggressively. It catches you off guard. I'm the type to cower, but I understand why some people will immediately get defensive. Flight or fight kicks in when police are pointing guns at you. I know from experience. And you won't dig up any dirt on  me except for parking tickets. 

I'm so tired. 

Not opinions on what black people should do but what everyone should do if in that situation. I never singled any race out. I'm not defending POs or the people who were shot. I wasn't there. I think we all need to try to see the other person's side of things before anything can get better. It sucks that people are being killed in our streets, police officers and those they are supposed to be protecting. I agree with all of you that it needs to stop!! I haven't experienced many of the things some of you and your families have. I've only been pulled over once at 16 for speeding, no ticket. But I know I'd be scared and respectful as heck if I were ever to find myself on the wrong side of the law and I'd do anything I could to get home safely and not make the officer think I'm a threat. And I'm not saying these folks didn't, either. 

[iweartanktops]

6 minutes ago, Snarkylark said:

Not opinions on what black people should do but what everyone should do if in that situation. I never singled any race out. I'm not defending POs or the people who were shot. I wasn't there. I think we all need to try to see the other person's side of things before anything can get better. It sucks that people are being killed in our streets, police officers and those they are supposed to be protecting. I agree with all of you that it needs to stop!! I haven't experienced many of the things some of you and your families have. I've only been pulled over once at 16 for speeding, no ticket. But I know I'd be scared and respectful as heck if I were ever to find myself on the wrong side of the law and I'd do anything I could to get home safely and not make the officer think I'm a threat. And I'm not saying these folks didn't, either. 

But you won't watch the videos. 

Also, it's not against the law to be disrespectful to the police. I prefer to use respect in my interactions with everyone, but not all of us feel that way. It's not illegal to get pissed off when you're ambushed, and no one wants to have a regular conversation. 

[NakedKnees]

9 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

Teach your children that "Stop, don't move!" means stop and don't fucking move!!! And "hands up" means put your hands UP!!! How does a PO know you aren't going for a weapon? He doesn't and he only has a split second to make that decision whether he goes home to his family or you do. I'm Caucasian and you can bet I'd be telling any PO that pulled me over every step I'm taking and every move I'm making so I don't get shot! 

I didn't watch the video of the latest officer involved shootings because I don't want that in my head. The media bringing up arrest records sucks but it's also likely what information the officers had when they made the stops and unfortunately may put them more on edge. I don't know all the particulars in the officer involved shootings but I do know "stop!" means STOP!

I know this is a bit idealistic, but I don't understand why this is the type of law enforcement we should be okay with. Yes, it may feel like reality at times, but I don't know why anyone would be happy with living this way. I like to think we can change it if we keep working at it.

[Snarkylark]

6 hours ago, NakedKnees said:

I know this is a bit idealistic, but I don't understand why this is the type of law enforcement we should be okay with. Yes, it may feel like reality at times, but I don't know why anyone would be happy with living this way. I like to think we can change it if we keep working at it.

You're right. It shouldn't be this way. That's a whole other topic of discussion. But right now, it will certainly not hurt you to comply. I know it sucks to be respectful when you feel singled out and are ambushed or afraid. But if it's for survival then you better believe I would be. Whether it should be like that or not, it's true. Police ARE in a position of authority, like it or not. There are police that definitely abuse their power and that is not ok. I think it will take a culture shift among PO for it to change, i.e., not tolerating bad behavior and protecting and covering for each other when a PO behaves badly. It's hard though because they literally depend on each other in life and death situations so it's very much a brotherhood. Police should not be held above the law.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

30 minutes ago, Snarkylark said:

But right now, it will certainly not hurt you to comply. I know it sucks to be respectful when you feel singled out and are ambushed or afraid. But if it's for survival then you better believe I would be.

Rosa Parks somehow must have missed this meme. She didn't comply she took herself the right she was being denied knowingly risking a lot. Complying works to keep the status quo. Provoking and attacking tend to escalate situations and aren't a smart solution but patiently and sheepishly complying isn't going to change things if you don't do something about the problem. This said it's perfectly comprehensible that most people choose to comply without a word instead of risking their life.

[CloakNDagger]

52 minutes ago, Snarkylark said:

You're right. It shouldn't be this way. That's a whole other topic of discussion. But right now, it will certainly not hurt you to comply. I know it sucks to be respectful when you feel singled out and are ambushed or afraid. But if it's for survival then you better believe I would be. Whether it should be like that or not, it's true. Police ARE in a position of authority, like it or not. There are police that definitely abuse their power and that is not ok. I think it will take a culture shift among PO for it to change, i.e., not tolerating bad behavior and protecting and covering for each other when a PO behaves badly. It's hard though because they literally depend on each other in life and death situations so it's very much a brotherhood. Police should not be held above the law.

People even in Dallas "don't comply" and as stated earlier, the DPD is actually pretty good about working with them, but doing so in a violent manner is a huge problem. When you do stuff in numbers and with solidarity and being polite about it, it usually goes over quite a bit better.

[Snarkylark]

I'm not justifying any of these shootings. Ever. But maybe this video will help you understand the life and death choices officers have to make. 

 

[Mecca]

10 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

But I know I'd be scared and respectful as heck if I were ever to find myself on the wrong side of the law and I'd do anything I could to get home safely and not make the officer think I'm a threat. And I'm not saying these folks didn't, either. 

This is what I find frustrating with our conversation. The point is most of these men are not on the wrong side of the law. They are being targeted purely on race and dying because of that very fact. That is the issue here. 

My husband is constantly profiled on his appearance. He has been pulled over by cops for not a damn thing. Just happened two weeks ago. Wanted to see his license and registration. No tickets are issued because he is doing nothing wrong. Cop was a complete asshole to him. "Where you coming from? Where you going?" Does not matter that he was coming home from work and going home. He gets pulled out of security lines for extra security checks in airports. EVERY. DAMN. TIME. Business trips. Pleasure trips. Does not matter. The man has never done a bad thing in his life. Because of his appearance, he gets targeted. Do you not understand this type of policing does not make our communities safer? Police should be there to protect and serve. Not harrass and exploit their power. 

[violynn]

3 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

I'm not justifying any of these shootings. Ever. But maybe this video will help you understand the life and death choices officers have to make. 

 

You won't watch the video of the cop shooting a man to death, with a child directly behind the man and a woman in the seat next to him, but you advise us to watch this one?!  Because it explains why it's okay to shoot black people?!  

[Cleopatra7]

I'd like to relate a story that happened almost twenty years ago that illustrates the problem with policing in America. One of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims was a fourteen-year old Laotian American boy named Konerak Sinthasomphone. He was drugged, sexually assaulted, and had a hole drilled in his head, but managed to escape Dahmer's clutches and was found by two black women who called the police. However, Dahmer convinced the police that the boy was his adult lover, and they had simply had a “lover's tiff.” The black women who found  Konerak insisted that he was obviously a child and in distress, but the police told them to shut up. Konerak was returned to Dahmer, who killed him shortly after the police left his apartment. The police actually entered Dahmer's apartment, where there was a decomposing body of a previous victim lying just feet away, but somehow the officers didn't notice anything amiss. Had the police actually done their job, not only would Konerak still be alive, but so would the four other victims that Dahmer killed after him. The two police officers who returned Konerak to Dahmer were fired from the Milwaukee police, but despite their racist and homophobic attitudes that led to Konerak's death and the four other victims, managed to get reinstated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Balcerzak

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/04/28/us/victory-for-two-in-dahmer-case.html

https://blackbutterfly7.wordpress.com/2015/08/08/the-jeffrey-dahmer-victim-who-did-not-have-to-die/

Furthermore, they actually got awards from the Police Union for fighting against the firing, and Balcerzak even got elected head of the union. Should it be any wonder why so many minority communities don't trust the police if you can fail so horrible at your job and still be held up as an example of a "hero cop"? This story tells us that: 1. black lives don't matter (most of Dahmer's victims were black) 2. Asian lives don't matter 3. gay lives don't matter (or presumed gay, since the officers assumed Konerak was gay; I myself don't want to speculate on the sexuality of a dead child) 4. the testimony of black women is irrelevant. I mean, if handing over a clearly injured child to a cannibalistic serial killer isn't grounds for dismissal, I don't know what is, but I guess the Milwaukee PD thought otherwise.

While cannibalistic serial killers are thankfully rare, the attitudes the police in the case exhibited towards Konerack is unfortunately very common. His family sued the police department and got a settlement around $800K, which seems rather small especially in comparison to the payouts that victims families are getting today. However, while Konerack's family received a payment which is a tacit admission of wrongdoing by the police, the police officers in question got their jobs back and were welcomed back with open arms by their fellow officers. It's like his family was told, "We didn't do anything wrong, but take this money and please go away." This seems to be the same attitude we see today, where too many police departments would rather just pay off the families of the victims of police misconduct rather than change the practices that led to these incidents happening in the first place.

[sophie10130]

I don't know why we have to hem and haw and say "Well not all police officers" when a police officer does something bad.

I can't count how many times I've seen parents bitch about their kids' teachers because they taught them math in the way that the parents didn't learn math. Absolutely dragged these teachers through the dirt. Say they should be fired, their tenure revoked, saying they don't deserve summer and weekends off. They talk about how corrupt the unions for teachers are and how they are just there to keep bad teachers in schools and how they only help the bad ones and teachers' unions should be disbanded.

And yet, when a police officer shoots someone in cold blood we have to "Look at all the facts" and talk about the victim's previous arrest record and wonder what exactly he did to provoke such a shooting when we should just say it. He was a bad police officer! Fire his ass! And yet the unions protect them. There is never talk about how police unions keep actual dangerous people on the force with guns in their hands.

[Snarkylark]

2 hours ago, Mecca said:

This is what I find frustrating with our conversation. The point is most of these men are not on the wrong side of the law. They are being targeted purely on race and dying because of that very fact. That is the issue here. 

My husband is constantly profiled on his appearance. He has been pulled over by cops for not a damn thing. Just happened two weeks ago. Wanted to see his license and registration. No tickets are issued because he is doing nothing wrong. Cop was a complete asshole to him. "Where you coming from? Where you going?" Does not matter that he was coming home from work and going home. He gets pulled out of security lines for extra security checks in airports. EVERY. DAMN. TIME. Business trips. Pleasure trips. Does not matter. The man has never done a bad thing in his life. Because of his appearance, he gets targeted. Do you not understand this type of policing does not make our communities safer? Police should be there to protect and serve. Not harrass and exploit their power. 

Yes, I've already said it sucks and isn't fair and shouldn't happen. 

1 hour ago, violynn said:

You won't watch the video of the cop shooting a man to death, with a child directly behind the man and a woman in the seat next to him, but you advise us to watch this one?!  Because it explains why it's okay to shoot black people?!  

I knew someone would say that. It doesn't explain why it's ok to shoot black people or any race. It's a simulation of officers having to make split second decisions. 

[Geechee Girl]

16 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

Show police officers respect, fear for your life, do what they say, and you probably will get home safely.

The point is we shouldn't have to be in fear of our lives from the people who are sworn to protect us.

15 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

But with the culture that has developed I can't say I blame POs for taking action of they feel their life is in danger.

Please explain exactly what cultural developments you're referencing.

From my perspective, the indoctrinated fear of black men and the branding of them as criminals in America can be traced back to Emancipation. It's all explained here in this thorough history lesson. I urge you to watch and learn how over-policing began through convict leasing and criminalizing behavior such as not stepping off the curb in the presence of whites. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLmcmF6qWL8

The culture of black men being a threat to whites (women especially) can be attributed to the film "Birth of a Nation" (originally titled "The Clansmen") in 1915. The nationwide success of this movie cemented the idea of black men being sexually aggressive. This narrative help justify the need of the Klan to protect white women from black men.

Jim Crow, lynching and the war on drugs was the same game with a new name. Only the players have changed. The root of our hostility has been building for generations. The institutionalized racism of the criminal justice system has not changed. We are sick and tired of being murdered with zero consequences for the perpetrator. Emmett Till's life didn't matter back in the day, nor does all the #namehere matter in this day and age.

We want accountability. We want y'all to wake up, acknowledge our experiences, validate our pain, and stay woke.