Police officers killed in Dallas

[Snarkylark]

What's with the down votes? I agree with you guys on everything. What I'm trying to get across is that with the way the culture is right now, just comply and obey and hopefully you'll get home safely. I don't like that people are profiled because of the color of their skin. It isn't right. There are always two sides to every story and until POs are all wearing body cameras unfortunately we don't always get the truth. And I understand some of you are frustrated because some of these men are complying and still get killed. Idk what to say about that. I really don't. But I do know that shooting police officers that aren't even involved just for doing their job isn't the right answer either and only escalates the fear and uncertainly they have when trying to do their job. I really don't know what else to say.

@Geechee Girl, you're absolutely right. You shouldn't have to be afraid for your life. I'm just saying that the way it is now, that's what I'd be doing. The other question you asked about I just meant that I can't blame POs for being jumpy when they face people that may want to kill them regularly. This Dallas incident just reinforces that. I mentioned above that I think we need better police accountability but I'm not sure how to make that happen. Body cameras are a good start but I think police interpersonal relationships between other need to change. 

[Geechee Girl]

1 hour ago, Snarkylark said:

What I'm trying to get across is that with the way the culture is right now, just comply and obey and hopefully you'll get home safely. 

This is where the point is lost. The way the culture is right now has been this way for us hundreds of years. We have been told to comply and obey since being brought here in chains. When we try to stand up for our rights, we are beaten, brutalized, or killed. Any tone other than meekness is seen as uppity, combative, or aggressive.

1 hour ago, Snarkylark said:

I'm just saying that the way it is now, that's what I'd be doing.

What you'd be doing does not apply for some of us. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt for tone. It seems as if you're saying by following your lead, we'll probably get home safely. I understand this to imply if we change our behavior, then we might be able to live through a traffic stop. How about championing for the officers to change there's? 

I'm not holding hope body cameras will help. Video didn't guarantee justice for Rodney King. I forsee a lot of bodycam "malfunctions" in the future. It's started already with Alton Sterling's murder this week.

Quote

NBC News:

Authorities said after the shooting that body cameras worn by the two police officers involved allegedly fell off during the altercation, and didn't capture footage. Critics say that explanation is awfully convenient — and arguably untrue.  

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/after-baton-rouge-shooting-questions-swirl-around-body-cam-failures-n605386

 

[Snarkylark]

I hear you, @Geechee Girl. I really do. And I did say that officers need to change their behavior, too. 

[FlamingFundie]

15 hours ago, sophie10130 said:

(snipped for brevity)

Like I said before, I will raise these people up because I know the media will raise up the Police Officers more. They already have. The outrage these officers have gotten so far should have been the outrage we had for Tamir Rice. A boy. But instead, they painted him as a thug and that was that. Case closed. He deserved to die for playing at the playground.

We know what happened to the police officers was wrong. But everyone knows that. We just want everyone to know that killing unarmed (or legally armed, as was the case for Philando Castile) black people is just as wrong! Because a lot of people don't see it that way. They want to justify it when there is absolutely no justification. We've seen it in this very thread.

I just really felt the need to quote this so it comes up again for people to read. This gave me a lightbulb moment. Thank you. Thank you so very much.

[Chicken bones]

As if the whole city and situation weren't crapped enough, this popped up 2 minutes ago: http://www.wfaa.com/mb/news/reports-dpd-under-lockdown-swat-deployed-following-serious-threat/268431154

Eta....now the news is just full of the swat teams outside did with perimeters and also a creepy, very shouts man "praying" (screaming on his knees) by the memorial to the officers fallen. Yikes.

[Maggie Mae]

Who gives a shit if they are wearing body cams or not? Until we DEMAND transparency from our "police," this shit will continue to happen. To ALL of us, but especially those people at the margins of society. And right now, there is a disproportionate number of black people who are suffering the most. We need transparency - internal investigations of police departments isn't doing jack shit to stop the institutionalized asshole culture that police having. We need to shut down the "internal process" of checking on police and demand that external agencies follow up with police to manage their own procedures. 

Then we can start worrying about body cams. Right now body cams won't do jack shit. They will wear them, then the footage will "disappear" and there will be no consequences because the police in this country are fucked up and don't give a shit about anyone they are "protecting and serving." They cover up for their own. 

[iweartanktops]

Exactly, @Maggie Mae. *stomps feet* In fact, they were wearing body cameras in Baton Rouge, last week. But "the cameras became dislodged during the altercation."  We also have, what, three different videos of the murder of Alton Sterling, and people are still justifying his execution! Yes, he has a record, and if I understand correctly, he did his time! But having an illegal firearm and owing child support doesn't make him fair game to be shot to death. 

[RosyDaisy]

Honest question. Why is Dallas the center of the violence? Is it really because of the sniper or is there something else going on? My opinion hasn't changed, it's just a question.

[Mecca]

5 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

What's with the down votes? I agree with you guys on everything. What I'm trying to get across is that with the way the culture is right now, just comply and obey and hopefully you'll get home safely. I don't like that people are profiled because of the color of their skin. It isn't right. There are always two sides to every story and until POs are all wearing body cameras unfortunately we don't always get the truth. And I understand some of you are frustrated because some of these men are complying and still get killed. Idk what to say about that. I really don't. But I do know that shooting police officers that aren't even involved just for doing their job isn't the right answer either and only escalates the fear and uncertainly they have when trying to do their job. I really don't know what else to say.

@Geechee Girl, you're absolutely right. You shouldn't have to be afraid for your life. I'm just saying that the way it is now, that's what I'd be doing. The other question you asked about I just meant that I can't blame POs for being jumpy when they face people that may want to kill them regularly. This Dallas incident just reinforces that. I mentioned above that I think we need better police accountability but I'm not sure how to make that happen. Body cameras are a good start but I think police interpersonal relationships between other need to change. 

Why all the down votes? Well, it could be because you actually want to sweep the problem we are speaking about under the rug and tell people to just simply comply and they MIGHT live if they do. Fear for your life. Do as you are told. Sorry, that is NOT addressing the issue at hand. That is contributing to the issue. You are suggesting that the police are above the law, can treat people however they want, and we all must tow their line. Screw the Constitution. We don't need those crappy civil liberties. Do you understand how dismissive that comes across?

Also, and I am just going to put this out there, but the thought that minorities need to be all, "yes, sir" and "no, sir" and "sorry, sir" just does not set right with me. It reminds me of the thinking and attitudes of slave traders and slave owners. Just be nice to the white people and they won't get you if you do as your told. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that is not how you are meaning to come across, but be aware that is how your tone is reading. At least for me, anyway.

People have repeatedly said that not all officers are bad. But with that being said, we also do not see a lot of officers coming forward to speak about the problems within the system either. They may do their job out on patrol, but if they still play the game of silence knowing something needs to be addressed, then are they not also part of the problem? There is an atmosphere of "must stick together no matter what" in a lot of Jurisdictions. No transparency. No accountability outside the system. They cover their own. Do you know how many crap cops just get passed around to other areas and never have to answer for their actions?

Honestly, it really stinks that people now have to suggest body cams, that can and do get tampered with, when what really needs to happen is demanding more from the people hired on the front end. In order to enforce the law, they need to understand the law and be educated in it. Where is the continuing education? The checks and balances? The system needs an overhaul. Full stop. 

 

[Mercer]

Apparently there has been a shooting in the town where I grew up that may* have some connection:

http://wjhl.com/2016/07/08/tbi-reveals-name-possible-motive-of-suspect-behind-random-shootings-in-bristol-tn/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cops-tennessee-shooter-targeted-white-victims-similar-to-dallas-ambush/

 

*I say "may" because I'm not sure about some of the conclusions being drawn in the articles. In spite of the articles saying that the circumstances were similar to Dallas, I'm not really seeing it - there was no large event or protest going on at the time, and the man appears to have just fired at random people on a roadway, some of whom were in vehicles. Had it not been for the timing, I doubt people would be directly comparing the two crimes.

I'm also not sure exactly how they drew the conclusion that the shootings were racially motivated. It's possible that the shooter confessed that (he survived) but that is not specifically indicated. I can't help but wonder if people saw a black shooter and white victims and just... assumed. A large majority of the population of Bristol is white, though, so if you were to select four townspeople completely at random, the odds that all four of them will be Caucasian are pretty good; the fact they are all the same race does not necessarily mean that race was targeted.

It may turn out that this was just a completely random shooting that had nothing to do with Dallas. The fact it was being compared in the media seemed worth noting, though.

[Snarkylark]

@Mecca I do not want to sweep the problem under the rug. I've admitted several times that there needs to be change. All I'm saying is what I would do if I found myself in the unfortunate situation and advised others to do the same.

You're right, body cams aren't the perfect solution. I'm not sure what the solution is that both sides can feel comfortable with. Lives are literally on the line for cops and those they pull over. I can say that if people comply with law enforcement then they are less likely to get shot. If you are going to act sketchy or shady or make sudden movements and have a shitty attitude things are less likely to work out well for you. I'm not saying that's ok. I'm not law enforcement or black so I can't speak from either experience. I think it's through respectful dialogue that progress is made. 

[sophie10130]

2015 and 2013 were the safest year for cops in a ridiculous amount of years. Like in all of history. Like since the 1800s. Just a tidbit for everyone.

Meanwhile, I'm waiting for gun advocates to come up with some excuse that we need high powered guns in light of this event. Because when Pulse happened, they said that the patrons should have had guns and none of it would have happened. Well, a sniper shot into a crowd of people and there were armed police there. So I want someone to tell me how more guns could have helped this situation.

I'll wait.

[CloakNDagger]

1 minute ago, sophie10130 said:

2015 and 2013 were the safest year for cops in a ridiculous amount of years. Like in all of history. Like since the 1800s. Just a tidbit for everyone.

Meanwhile, I'm waiting for gun advocates to come up with some excuse that we need high powered guns in light of this event. Because when Pulse happened, they said that the patrons should have had guns and none of it would have happened. Well, a sniper shot into a crowd of people and there were armed police there. So I want someone to tell me how more guns could have helped this situation.

I'll wait.

The guy was a 6 year army reservist with a vintage SKS from probably Russia or China. From everything I can read it was pretty calculated, this guy had a clean background and knew how to do what he had planned. You can't prevent everything. I said before if all the military forces of the world gave up automatic rifles as weapons altogether, I'd seriously be persuaded that it was fine to hand over my semi-auto, too. Until then, this could happen anywhere, even in places like Europe where the Norway shooter killed so many people. Really determined insurgents and political terrorists WILL find access to weapons and explosives.

[Kailash]

44 minutes ago, sophie10130 said:

2015 and 2013 were the safest year for cops in a ridiculous amount of years. Like in all of history. Like since the 1800s. Just a tidbit for everyone.

Meanwhile, I'm waiting for gun advocates to come up with some excuse that we need high powered guns in light of this event. Because when Pulse happened, they said that the patrons should have had guns and none of it would have happened. Well, a sniper shot into a crowd of people and there were armed police there. So I want someone to tell me how more guns could have helped this situation.

I'll wait.

I just want to make sure that the bolded is seen.

[KnittingOwl]

5 hours ago, sophie10130 said:

2015 and 2013 were the safest year for cops in a ridiculous amount of years. Like in all of history. Like since the 1800s. Just a tidbit for everyone.

Meanwhile, I'm waiting for gun advocates to come up with some excuse that we need high powered guns in light of this event. Because when Pulse happened, they said that the patrons should have had guns and none of it would have happened. Well, a sniper shot into a crowd of people and there were armed police there. So I want someone to tell me how more guns could have helped this situation.

I'll wait.

I also want to know why the NRA isn't up in arms about Philando Castile. He was just exercising his 2nd amendment right, right? I can't help but think it's because he's not white. 

[FlamingFundie]

3 hours ago, KnittingOwl said:

I also want to know why the NRA isn't up in arms about Philando Castile. He was just exercising his 2nd amendment right, right? I can't help but think it's because he's not white. 

I think this is a very important point. I am an NRA supporter (puts on flame suit) and this is embarrassing to say the least, horrifying at the most. I know we have video of the woman telling us what occurred before she started filming, but honestly we don't know what happened for 100% certainty besides there is a dead man. (If we do have something solid, then I have missed it and hope someone will bring it to my attention.) I totally agree with the suggestions of an outside agency overseeing police forces and holding them accountable, but who would that be? A mixture of former or current LEOs along with regular citizens or lawyers or what? Im all for body cams. Im all for regular citizens videoing their encounters. Im curious if there is something psychological in these LEOs' minds that is missed in the hiring/training process, or if their training is lacking somewhere, or what. Im grappling for answers.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

9 hours ago, sophie10130 said:

2015 and 2013 were the safest year for cops in a ridiculous amount of years. Like in all of history. Like since the 1800s. Just a tidbit for everyone.

Could you source this for me, please?  Because that doesn't match with my references - and it also depends on the statistical structure used.

As far as analysis, the Washington Post has been collecting data and creating a database about officer involved shootings.  One of their recent articles is here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/fatal-shootings-by-police-surpass-2015s-rate/2016/07/07/81b708f2-3d42-11e6-84e8-1580c7db5275_story.html

Quote

A Post database that tracks fatal shootings by police shows a 6 percent increase in the number of such deaths during the first six months of 2016, compared with the same period last year. Fatal encounters are strikingly similar to last year’s shootings: Blacks continued to be shot at 2.5 times the rate of whites. About half of those killed were white, and about half were minorities. Less than 10 percent of all those killed were unarmed. One-quarter were mentally ill.

Quote

In the first six months of this year, 20 officers were fatally shot in the line of duty, compared with 16 in the first six months of 2015, according to the Officer Down Memorial Page.

Of particular interest to me is the following:

Quote

 

There are about 18,000 police departments in the nation, many with their own training academies and unions, making it impossible for them to move in lockstep.

There will be a “lag time” before there is a measurable drop in deaths, even among the departments that are earnestly embracing reforms, said James Alan Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston.

 

I'm reminded of an earlier argument on the "Jinger" threads about whether Laredo is a city.  A lot of things depend on our individual perceptions, no doubt,  But American police are not some monolithic culture that can be globally assessed or treated as a single entity.  People who are willing to do that are as guilty of stereotyping as someone who is willing to group "all Christians" or "all atheists," or even, indeed, "all POC."

Further, lots of analysis and commentary right now seems to be caught in the "either/or" fallacy.  If one abhors the killing of unarmed black men, that doesn't mean one supports the killing of police officers.  Conversely, just because someone posts a "Blue Lives Matter" meme, that doesn't mean they want black men gunned down in the street.

It's not either/or.  It just isn't.  I live near a community where the chief of police is gay.  He posts regularly about his joy visiting with school children.  He's a good cop.  There are LOTS of good cops quietly doing their jobs and making a difference.

[SilverBeach]

9 hours ago, sophie10130 said:

2015 and 2013 were the safest year for cops in a ridiculous amount of years. Like in all of history. Like since the 1800s. Just a tidbit for everyone.

True. I am watching CBS Sunday Morning and there was just a segment on this very topic. Sorry I didn't capture the actual stats, but police killed itlod have dramatically decreased, while police killings of others have dramatically increased. Facts.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

4 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

True. I am watching CBS Sunday Morning and there was just a segment on this very topic. Sorry I didn't capture the actual stats, but police killed itlod have dramatically decreased, while police killings of others have dramatically increased. Facts.

Quote

 

What stands out now? Answer: Police gun deaths are on the rise.

Previous to the Dallas shootings, 2016 displayed two important trends:

The number of police deaths for this time of year was down 12 percent.

But the number of police officers killed by firearms was up 17 percent.  That echoes findings from the pro-gun-control Brady Campaign in May.  The group concluded that at that time,  the number of officers murdered by guns was up 70 percent.

 

 

 

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/the-history-of-u-s-police-deaths-in-the-line-of-duty/

If you look at the statistics I quoted in my previous post, your second statement is addressed.

Your first is addressed in the quote directly above.

ETA:  From the WaPo article:

[SilverBeach]

Excerpt from this morning's CBS Sunday Morning segment: (timelines matter when referencing comparative statistics).

"Now, some context: the number of police officers killed in the line of duty has actually dropped, by more than two-thirds since the 1970s (from 134 in 1973, to 46 in 2015). Dallas puts the number at 25 so far this year.

By comparison, police shot and killed close to a thousand people last year, and already, more than 500 this year -- nearly 40 percent of them black or Hispanic."

Here is the link to the entire article for your reading pleasure:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/black-white-and-blue/

[SpoonfulOSugar]

1 minute ago, SilverBeach said:

Excerpt from this morning's CBS Sunday Morning segment: (timelines matter when referencing comparative statistics).

"Now, some context: the number of police officers killed in the line of duty has actually dropped, by more than two-thirds since the 1970s (from 134 in 1973, to 46 in 2015). Dallas puts the number at 25 so far this year.

By comparison, police shot and killed close to a thousand people last year, and already, more than 500 this year -- nearly 40 percent of them black or Hispanic."

Here is the link to the entire article for your reading pleasure:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/black-white-and-blue/

Which does not disprove mine.  Why, cops were getting killed at a higher rate in the 1920s, so let's just use those statistics.

And yes, timelines and actual data matter, which is why I 1) provided mine upfront and 2) asked for the other.

Now, *putting mod hat on*  we have been asking members to not copy/paste formatting from other sites.  I have edited your post to comply with that.  In the future, please use the Tx or the "remove format" option.  It may look fine on your browser, but the formatting is a problem on some themes and mobile devices.  Thank you to all who pay attention to this request.  *Mod hat off*

[SilverBeach]

Hi SOS. Whoa! I was not trying to disprove you or anybody else! Just presenting additional information for the discussion that I happened to see this morning.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

19 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

What's with the down votes? I agree with you guys on everything.

It's for you to decide if you agree with them but you can't decide that they agree with you. 

10 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

Lives are literally on the line for cops and those they pull over. I can say that if people comply with law enforcement then they are less likely to get shot. If you are going to act sketchy or shady or make sudden movements and have a shitty attitude things are less likely to work out well for you.

And do you think that this is normal? If I didn't know that you are American and you're talking about the US I'd think that probably you live in a war thorn, terrorist ridden ME country.

Seriously though as a foreigner the quoted sentences sound appalling. Here when cops pull you out they ask please (there's a verbal form that is used only by them "favorisca" that means "do something as a favor" but it's in the form of the "congiuntivo imperativo" that is a mild imperative form because they are asking it politely but you are expected to follow with their request) if you can show your documents, they usually aren't overly kind but they are never rude, it would be extremely unprofessional. Plus if you are pulled out it's usually by "polizia locale" that is often unarmed so it's impossible for them to shoot anyone. 

 

I've found this by the Guardian very interesting. 

Quote

The Counted is a project by the Guardian – and you – working to count the number of people killed by police and other law enforcement agencies in the United States throughout 2015 and 2016, to monitor their demographics and to tell the stories of how they died.

The database will combine Guardian reporting with verified crowdsourced information to build a more comprehensive record of such fatalities. The Counted is the most thorough public accounting for deadly use of force in the US, but it will operate as an imperfect work in progress – and will be updated by Guardian reporters and interactive journalists as frequently and as promptly as possible.

[...]

Why is this necessary?

The US government has no comprehensive record of the number of people killed by law enforcement. This lack of basic data has been glaring amid the protests, riots and worldwide debate set in motion by the fatal police shooting of Michael Brown, an unarmed 18-year-old, in Ferguson, Missouri, in August 2014.

Before stepping down as US attorney general in April 2015, Eric Holder described the prevailing situation on data collection as “unacceptable”.

The Guardian agrees with those analysts, campaign groups, activists and authorities who argue that such accounting is a prerequisite for an informed public discussion about the use of force by police.

How does the US government count killings by police now?

The FBI runs a voluntary program through which law enforcement agencies may or may not choose to submit their annual count of “justifiable homicides”, which it defines as “the killing of a felon in the line of duty”.

This system is arguably less valuable than having no system at all: fluctuations in the number of agencies choosing to report figures, plus faulty reporting by agencies that do report, have resulted in partially informed news coverage pointing misleadingly to trends that may or may not exist.

“We lack the ability right now to comprehensively track the number of incidents. ... Fixing this is an idea that we should all be able to unite behind.” 
–Eric Holder

Between 2005 and 2012 just 1,100 police departments – a fraction of America’s 18,000 police agencies – reported a “justifiable homicide” to the FBI.

The FBI system counted 461 justifiable homicides by law enforcement in 2013, the latest year for which data is available. Crowdsourced counts found almost 300 additional fatalities during that year. The Counted, upon its launch on June 1, 2015, had already found close to that number of killings in just the first five months of 2015.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database

[SilverBeach]

(snip)

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics, someone once said. In many cases, stats can be meaningless because of sample size, and yes, bias, among other things. Let the reader beware. 

[VelociRapture]

I want to take a moment to thank you all for handling this conversation with such respect and civility. It's such an emotional topic for so many of you in a way I simply can't understand because I haven't lived it personally - I am incredibly grateful to you for taking the time to really explain your experiences and opinions.

I think this picture really sums up how most of us feel about these killings:

I support good cops. I don't support the asshole cops who purposely look to belittle and demean others due to a stupid perceived difference (whether it's gender, race, religion, sexual preference, etc.) Saying I support the rights of black people and other minorities to not be treated differently than I would be is not anti-cop.

I also support the idea that cops should be able to protect themselves and others - but that they have to be able to tell the difference between someone being disrespectful and someone acting in a threatening manner. They are civil servants with a massive amount of power over the common person - their first and most important responsibility is ensuring justice is fair and balanced for all, not just the people they decide deserve it. As a white woman, I can get away with a shit load of bad behavior that a black person simply can't afford. That is wrong on so many levels. Mouthing off to a cop shouldn't equal a death sentence ever.