Counting On Season Two- Part 4

[feministxtian]

I prefer to be referred to as HBIC. I used to work in a very male environment. Never really had any problems. Anyone who chose to talk shit usually got schooled by my co-workers that they'd better shut up because I never bothered with going to HR and in their book, going to HR hurt less. I was known to be able to cut the sexist jerks off at the knees with my mouth. 

My male co-workers who knew me would occasionally tease me about being "a girl" but that term was usually meant in a not very nice way (she's such a girl, she got a paper cut and cried for an hour) sort of thing. 

[Rio]

On 10/6/2016 at 9:04 PM, OrchidBlossom said:

Millenial here, and grammar enthusiast. Girl is a noun, meaning (generally prepubescent/young) female human being. Female is an adjective, it describes a noun (ie: female firefighter, female doctor, female CEO) but it is not a noun despite the recent upsurge of the use of "a female". Female is also less specific in that it doesn't refer to or apply only to human beings ("a female horse"). Of course it isn't always used in this way, but your statement that they are synonymous isn't grammatically accurate, they aren't even the same part of speech. Now, in terms of the common parlance many people do use them interchangably, but they aren't technically the same.

Also, most millenials I know are incredibly bothered by being infantalized in that way. However, having lived in several different major cities I think this is partially local/cultural.

ETA: If we want to get HYPER technical about the grammar, "female" can be used in the abstract as a noun in certain contexts ("the females of the species") but that in and of itself actually follows really strict but largely unwritten rules about when it is grammatically appropriate and is reserved almost entirely for use in scientific discussion. I could talk about this all day, but most people find it boring, but for native/fluent English speakers a lot of these rules are never taught to us, we follow them instinctively. Which is why so many people see female and girl/woman as interchangeable, because we aren't taught the rules that make them distinct.

Lawyers, cops, and criminals use "male" and "female" as nouns, this is just something I have noticed.  My husband and I both work in hospitals,  where most of the patients tend to be fairly elderly.  My teenage son was taking me to task at dinner for referring to an adult patient as a "girl", saying I would never use "boy" for a grown male patient, and I retorted that no, a younger male patient is called a "kid".  Whereupon my husband came home right then, complaining about complications with a patient he termed a "50-year-old kid" which proved my point!  Actual children who are patients are called "kiddos".  

 

[alba]

5 hours ago, Kate11 said:

This is a little off topic, but kinda goes with girl/ woman. I'm a teacher and when talking about my coworkers to students I call everyone Miss Last Name, I hardly ever use Mrs. Mostly because it's harder and takes longer to say. I was just wondering what the FJ consensus was on using Miss/Mrs./ and Ms!

I always use Ms unless informed otherwise, because if I just know a woman's first and last name I don't know if she's Miss or Mrs, but few women, at least my age (millennial here!) will be offended at being called Ms, because it doesn't presume to know your marital status.

I actually know married women who use their husband's last name with Ms, unless they're with their husband as a 'social unit', so to speak, like a family wedding. For instance Jane Smith, husband of John Smith, would be Ms Smith to the doctor's office or at work, but would attend a social event as Mr and Mrs Smith.

Even amongst unmarried women my age, most seem to prefer Ms over Miss, which tends to feel infantilising. Miss is what my granny used to write on birthday cards when I was a little girl.

Personally, I always go by Ms, and have done since I was about 18. I kept my birth name when I married, so Miss and Mrs are both inaccurate. I still get cards and invitations from older relatives addressed to Mr and Mrs J Smith, even though Mr Alba and I have different first initials. I don't open them because it's illegal to open mail that isn't addressed to you, and I'm petty like that

[season of life]

Mrs. sounds too old to me! I call everyone Ms. unless they are older-ish women.

[QuiverDance]

OMG use of "female" as a noun is a major pet peeve of mine.  I find it just as demeaning as "girl!"

[Queen]

On 6 oktober 2016 at 5:14 AM, Malizabeth said:

Not only the pants, but I remember people saying nasty things about her daughter, suggesting she have her tested for autism etc...

A polite suggestion would in my mind not be wrong. I guess this was not the case though?

Autism is also not something to be afraid or ashamed of! If you really have it, getting support from professionals usually help both you and the people around you. 

[alba]

42 minutes ago, Queen said:

A polite suggestion would in my mind not be wrong. I guess this was not the case though?

Autism is also not something to be afraid or ashamed of! If you really have it, getting support from professionals usually help both you and the people around you. 

Even a polite suggestion would be overstepping in this case, IMO, because the information gleaned from photographs of a baby is nowhere near enough to even suspect autism, and suggesting a mother get her child tested because her face is impassive in photos perpetuates stereotypes of the condition.

It would be different if someone recommended seeing a doctor after substantial interaction with Allie, but not merely based on seeing her in pictures (and perhaps a little bit on TV).

[Illmarryyoujana]

10 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Girl power rules!  And this is so important for girls.  But most English language speakers define "girl" as a female child.    

Women aren't children any more than men are.   As they age - as we all do -  those who prefer to be called "girls" run the risk of being pushed into a lesser standing if boys become men while they remain children.

Free to be, you and me. But words can both convey and diminish our power if we let them. 

Men often deminish the power behind woman, as well. If someone sees me as a child because I prefer to be called girl, they weren't ever going to see my power to begin with. I'm a girl, I'm proud to be called a girl. I'm not going to let what men think determine my label or power. Choosing to identify as a girl because I see it as powerful and feminine, where as woman is an extension of man, doesn't mean that I'm remaining a child. 

[LadyCrow1313]

9 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Its all about intent. If words are spoken maliciously they are wrong they are insulting, degrading... like when I call my friends whores or bitches, that is fine, by if someone I don't know calls one of them a whore there will be a problem. 

This!

One of my friends (that I've known for many, many moons) & I have this thing where we call each other "man" or "dude" (neither of which we are). I think nothing of it; between us, it's a term of endearment.

My mother calls us (my sister, niece & I) aholes, but we do occasionally (ok, all the time) act like idiots and drive her crazy. Again, this is also a term of endearment & I think nothing of it.

Words are just words. They themselves have no power to do damage to someone; it's all about intent and how the other person says them.

[Lurky]

I disagree that words' meaning is based on the intent behind them.  I've seen people who use racist/sexist/homophobic slurs and thinking it's ok, because they don't feel racist, some of their best friends are gay, they give money to disability charities or whatever - but at the end of the day, using words that demean other people have tons of implications in the real word, and contribute to all kinds of prejudice.   The fact that person A uses a racial slur in a friendly way is irrelevant, if everyone around them hears it as hateful.

I know I sound joyless about this, but I've had so many conversations with people explaining how saying "that's so gay", or calling someone a Retard, have real effects on real people, and it's just exhausting.  And yeah, for sure, "girl" isn't the same as those, but to me, it's on a spectrum, and while I totally get people calling their group of friends girls, in tons of situations, like in the workplace, saying women are girls, but men are men, is infantilising, and a way to position the women as lesser.

[montyollie]

18 hours ago, Kate11 said:

This is a little off topic, but kinda goes with girl/ woman. I'm a teacher and when talking about my coworkers to students I call everyone Miss Last Name, I hardly ever use Mrs. Mostly because it's harder and takes longer to say. I was just wondering what the FJ consensus was on using Miss/Mrs./ and Ms!

I work in education (JK-12) and ALL the kids call the female bodied teachers "Miss" and the male bodied teachers "Sir".  I appear to be female bodied (I'm a computer technician, so I'm in the buildings but the kids don't know me) and they call me "Miss" constantly.  I find myself doing it when I don't know the teacher's name but I need her attention.

It's SO WEIRD.  SO VERY WEIRD.

And yet I've heard it my whole life and done it my whole life.

I tell the kids to please call me Jo (my legal name) and ask them politely not to call me Miss, but it's an uphill battle.  Re: Mrs -- I never call anyone Mrs ever.  Under any circumstance.  I try and stay away from titles as best I can. 

 

5 hours ago, Lurky said:

I disagree that words' meaning is based on the intent behind them.  I've seen people who use racist/sexist/homophobic slurs and thinking it's ok, because they don't feel racist, some of their best friends are gay, they give money to disability charities or whatever - but at the end of the day, using words that demean other people have tons of implications in the real word, and contribute to all kinds of prejudice.   The fact that person A uses a racial slur in a friendly way is irrelevant, if everyone around them hears it as hateful.

I know I sound joyless about this, but I've had so many conversations with people explaining how saying "that's so gay", or calling someone a Retard, have real effects on real people, and it's just exhausting.  And yeah, for sure, "girl" isn't the same as those, but to me, it's on a spectrum, and while I totally get people calling their group of friends girls, in tons of situations, like in the workplace, saying women are girls, but men are men, is infantilising, and a way to position the women as lesser.

Agreed COMPLETELY.  It's not harmless.  It's very harmful when you refer to someone in a way in which they do not wish to be referred.  I literally JUST changed my name legally to my preferred name after years of duking it out with people who thought they had a right to call me by my birth name.  Calling me that name is a microaggression when I've repeatedly asked you not to.

Same with terms to describe someone's job (girl on the front desk vs clerk, girl who waits tables vs waiter etc.).  Many many many terms are derogatory.  If I know it might be perceived as derogatory, I try and not do it.

[Percy]

I call older patients Mr, Mrs and Miss until they ask me not to.

I was trained by the Nuns, it is a hard habit to break.

[OrchidBlossom]

1 hour ago, Percy said:

 

I was trained by the Nuns, it is a hard habit to break.

I don't know if the bolded was supposed to be a pun but I enjoyed it.

[Percy]

Completely unintentional. 

[JenniferJuniper]

10 hours ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

Men often deminish the power behind woman, as well. If someone sees me as a child because I prefer to be called girl, they weren't ever going to see my power to begin with. I'm a girl, I'm proud to be called a girl. I'm not going to let what men think determine my label or power. Choosing to identify as a girl because I see it as powerful and feminine, where as woman is an extension of man, doesn't mean that I'm remaining a child. 

Problem is, most English speakers define "girl" as a female child.

[Meridae]

10 hours ago, Lurky said:

I disagree that words' meaning is based on the intent behind them.  I've seen people who use racist/sexist/homophobic slurs and thinking it's ok, because they don't feel racist, some of their best friends are gay, they give money to disability charities or whatever - but at the end of the day, using words that demean other people have tons of implications in the real word, and contribute to all kinds of prejudice.   The fact that person A uses a racial slur in a friendly way is irrelevant, if everyone around them hears it as hateful.

I know I sound joyless about this, but I've had so many conversations with people explaining how saying "that's so gay", or calling someone a Retard, have real effects on real people, and it's just exhausting.  And yeah, for sure, "girl" isn't the same as those, but to me, it's on a spectrum, and while I totally get people calling their group of friends girls, in tons of situations, like in the workplace, saying women are girls, but men are men, is infantilising, and a way to position the women as lesser.

But wouldn't that still fall under intent or context? If you're saying "that's so gay" to be hurtful, then it IS hurtful. If you're calling someone a retard to be mean, then it IS mean.

Nearly every single sentence we utter, almost every word we say, is partially defined and understood through the use of context cues. I'm not a fan of giving words universal negative meaning when in reality they're only negative when used in such a specific situation. That's why saying "Pete is GAY!" happily and "Pete is GAY!" angrily have two completely different meanings despite using the same words.

[Illmarryyoujana]

1 hour ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Problem is, most English speakers define "girl" as a female child.

Language changes and develops. I'm well aware of the dictionary definition of girl. Not everything is so black and white, especially when it comes to how someone identifies. If someone sees me as less or  child because of how I identify, that's on them. I know my worth and it doesn't come from strangers ignorant opinions. 

[Jana814]

I was just at a wedding of a family friend. An old classmates of my parents were their. I called them Mr./Mrs. even though I know their first names. 

[JenniferJuniper]

1 hour ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

Language changes and develops. I'm well aware of the dictionary definition of girl. Not everything is so black and white, especially when it comes to how someone identifies. If someone sees me as less or  child because of how I identify, that's on them. I know my worth and it doesn't come from strangers ignorant opinions. 

Language doesn't change that fast!   Never mind the dictionary definition, ask 10 random English speakers what a "girl" is and it's a fair guess most if not all think "child".

Look, you can be whatever you want to be and its great that you don't care what ignorant strangers think.  But most women do not want to be referred to, thought of, or treated as children.  

[Lurky]

5 hours ago, Meridae said:

But wouldn't that still fall under intent or context? If you're saying "that's so gay" to be hurtful, then it IS hurtful. If you're calling someone a retard to be mean, then it IS mean.

So are you saying that you think saying "that's so gay", meaning "that's so rubbish", but in a friendly way isn't hurtful?  Because I am gay, and I've never experienced the use of gay=rubbish as  less than hurtful.  Similarly, if you're laughing to your friend saying "haha, you're such a retard!" but don't mean it as hateful, the bottom line is you're still saying "you're just like someone with a learning disability, and that means you're stupid".

When I was a little kid, "spazmo/spastic" was the playground insult, as well as one that was racist.  We had no idea what those meant, and we used them in all kinds of contexts - but that doesn't mean that those words weren't hugely hurtful to people with cerebal palsy/people of that ethnic background.  Yeah, a kid of 7 who's been called that might not know at the time, but they sure as hell remember it, when they find out what the words mean later - and for anyone overhearing (and especially adults overhearing and not intervening), the message is exactly the say, if 7 year olds know it at the time, or not. 

 

[Swamptribe]

It's kind of funny.  The Duggars have become so dull and boring that this entire discussion, of them, and evolved into one of etiquette and proper forms of social address.

[Illmarryyoujana]

9 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Language doesn't change that fast!   Never mind the dictionary definition, ask 10 random English speakers what a "girl" is and it's a fair guess most if not all think "child".

Look, you can be whatever you want to be and its great that you don't care what ignorant strangers think.  But most women do not want to be referred to, thought of, or treated as children.  

No one treats me like a child because in all honesty, I don't have to call myself anything all that often. And language does change that fast between generations. Girl has a different connotation today for many people than it did forty years ago. I've repeatedly said this is a personal choice and I call others what they want to be called. It's honestly quite rude that you keep responding and telling me how people will think of me as a child, when in my own life that's just not true. Girl is used by adults, to adults all the time. It doesn't just mean little girl, and one last time- If you want to call me a child, that's entirely your problem. But really,  no one in my life treats me as a child because I'm not. Please be respectful of identity  and labels. 

[nastyhobbitses]

Weighing in on the girl thing: maybe it's more of a millennial maturity/arrested development thing, but I often refer to myself as a girl and I'm 25. A few weeks ago, I texted a Tinder date saying "I'm in the restaurant. Look for a short white girl in a red cardigan towards the back." I know that I'm a grown-ass woman, but I guess girl just rolls off the tongue for me faster. I don't think I'm somehow less-than or a child. I think it might be good to replace my terminology, but generally I'll say "that girl over there" and the like about anyone visibly my age or younger, and "that lady over there" for anyone older.

[Keyleigh]

I tend to use chick for a woman and dude, or guy for a man in casual conversation. Guys is also used as an all encompassing label. In more formal settings I use woman or man. 

 

Girl and and lad get used a fair bit here too. Like up thread, girls or lads night out. 

[Meridae]

9 hours ago, Lurky said:

So are you saying that you think saying "that's so gay", meaning "that's so rubbish", but in a friendly way isn't hurtful?  Because I am gay, and I've never experienced the use of gay=rubbish as  less than hurtful.  Similarly, if you're laughing to your friend saying "haha, you're such a retard!" but don't mean it as hateful, the bottom line is you're still saying "you're just like someone with a learning disability, and that means you're stupid".

When I was a little kid, "spazmo/spastic" was the playground insult, as well as one that was racist.  We had no idea what those meant, and we used them in all kinds of contexts - but that doesn't mean that those words weren't hugely hurtful to people with cerebal palsy/people of that ethnic background.  Yeah, a kid of 7 who's been called that might not know at the time, but they sure as hell remember it, when they find out what the words mean later - and for anyone overhearing (and especially adults overhearing and not intervening), the message is exactly the say, if 7 year olds know it at the time, or not. 

 

Saying that something is gay as in rubbish IS inherently negative, though...same with calling someone a retard. Even when said with smiles. It's all about context. Saying someone is retarded in a clinical sense is much, much different than calling someone- even a beloved friend- a retard because they dropped a plate full of food or something.

Some words also take on different meanings over time- your use of spastic, for example, which in common lexicon (at least in the US) is generally used to mean happy, bouncy, goofy, and energetic. Which we can all agree is a pretty positive thing to be. But once again, despite the positivity of one situation, if I were to call someone "spastic" with an intent to hurt or in an otherwise inappropriate situation, that would be rude and insulting. Honestly I didn't even know spaz was ever used as an insult until a few months ago when a British friend brought it up in conversation. From how he described it it's more negatively used across the pond- here in the US, not as much. But I'm only basing that on my being around the use of spazzy/spastic being used positively and never hearing it used negatively, ever.

An example I've personally experienced- I'm a northerner but go to school in the Deep South. I happily describe myself as a Yankee, my friends may describe me as a Yankee, my southern boyfriend calls me Yankee Doodle. But freshman year someone referred to me as a Yankee as an insult,  and I was NOT happy, because by doing so they were taking who I was and turning it into a put down. Even fairly innocuous words can be used to hurt others, and we should of course avoid prescribing negative connotations to neutral words.

Like I said, there are very, very few words with universally negative or positive meaning. You have to take context into account when understanding what people mean- telling your sibling to stop calling people retards vs doctor describing a patient as retarded. Two different contexts, two different intents, but the same word.