jinder's Dresses 2: Duggar Wedding Gowns

[Mrs Ms]

As I explained to my teen son yesterday: 

messy/tidy

clean/dirty 

not my taste

are the only acceptable things to comment on to his little sister who is already worried about her looks barely out of kindergarten. I’ve always been super careful about appearance comments around my kids and his friends and classmates must have been kind too, so he managed to get to be a teen without body image hang ups. He is struggling to understand why 6 and 7 year old girls are discussing looks and that it is unfortunately affecting his sister.

[Kiki03910]

9 hours ago, Mrs Ms said:

As I explained to my teen son yesterday: 

messy/tidy

clean/dirty 

not my taste

are the only acceptable things to comment on to his little sister who is already worried about her looks barely out of kindergarten. I’ve always been super careful about appearance comments around my kids and his friends and classmates must have been kind too, so he managed to get to be a teen without body image hang ups. He is struggling to understand why 6 and 7 year old girls are discussing looks and that it is unfortunately affecting his sister.

I will never forget hearing from my nephew a few years back that my niece, then 13, refused to wear tank tops because she felt too skinny. This was probably the height of the curvy Kardashian ideal. As a Gen Xer I was flummoxed after suffering through the Kate Moss years.

We are all so brainwashed by culture and chasing impossible ideals. We are such harsh judges of both ourselves and others. There are no easy answers, sadly, except to try to be kinder. I sure need to remind myself this, repeatedly. Sometimes I fail. It's a process.

[AverageGiraffe]

5 hours ago, Kiki03910 said:

I will never forget hearing from my nephew a few years back that my niece, then 13, refused to wear tank tops because she felt too skinny. This was probably the height of the curvy Kardashian ideal. As a Gen Xer I was flummoxed after suffering through the Kate Moss years.

We are all so brainwashed by culture and chasing impossible ideals. We are such harsh judges of both ourselves and others. There are no easy answers, sadly, except to try to be kinder. I sure need to remind myself this, repeatedly. Sometimes I fail. It's a process.

It's interesting to me, and concerning to me, how often I forget that men struggle with body image and looks in a similar way to women (although it presents itself much differently, generally speaking). I think that's in part because those concerns are brushed off by others, or other men respond with teasing or making fun of them (whole host of thoughts about how we socialize men there), or they just don't feel comfortable talking about vulnerable things (or maybe even admitting them to themselves!). There's also the thing that many men do where they make fun of themselves or joke about it (their beer guts, their baldness, their height) and make it seem like they genuinely don't care, unless you really pay attention. 

I've found if I'm in a group of men, especially emotionally closed off men or men without a support system, and especially my age or older men, so mid-thirties up, (and honestly I'm often around those groups) it's pretty easy to see if I actually pay attention who's feelings are getting hurt, who is actually insecure, and who feels very alone in that. It makes me sad. 

And then I see things like my husband start paying attention to his diet and obsessing over lifting weights, or my slim partner talking about wanting to lose a few pounds, and I notice, to my shame, my first reaction is to kind of blow it off (no honey, I don't think anyone in the world has noticed you've lost a quarter inch of size on your biceps, and I'm not even sure it's true. Lose weight? From where?!) which is really invalidating. But noticing these things in them and in myself has helped shift my perspective on not just how I view and react to men, but to everyone. 

That's a long rant to say there's a lot to snark on about fundies. Clothing choices really don't bother me, when it's related to fundie-ness (modesty panels, etc). But I know that if I was being snarked on online, the thing that would wound me deeply and maybe irreparably, would be someone talking about my hair or weight or nose or general attractiveness. And I don't think most, or maybe any, of our fundies deserve that. 

TL;DR: it's also not okay to make fun of men for their appearance, I see pushback against it often, and I think there should be more. We don't need to be assholes to anyone. 

22 hours ago, viii said:

There's a difference between picking apart the styling differences of wedding dresses and calling them whoreish and stripperish. Using those terms IS shaming and we get enough shaming from men. We shouldn't expect it from each other. And yeah - we shouldn't be saying who looks pregnant based off their bodies because again - that's super offensive. 

Absolutely. Using that language to talk about the way others dress is not a single bit different than that way that fundies talk about everyone else. Ungodly, worldly, heathen, eye trap. It all means the same thing: you (general you, no one in particular) thinks that people should dress to X standard and they don't and you have an idea of what dressing outside of that standard means (they're unsaved, they're a bad Christian, they're no better than a whore or a stripper). And that's not even touching on the idea of what "no better than a whore or a stripper" implies and what kind of value judgments those statements mean (because SW is real work and SWers are people too who are valuable and important for their humanity and not less than because of what they do for a living). It's gross from men, but it's grosser to me from women, because the reasons women think it tend to be more cruel and vitriolic when you get down to it. 

[Johannah]

On 9/7/2024 at 8:28 PM, metheglyn said:

 

Jana just dropped a video of venue and wedding dress shopping and it looks like this dress guess was absolutely spot on. And right in that video was the decision to change the neckline. Though that does make the timing of the alterations being the day before the wedding that much more more confusing.

Where can I find this video?

[libgirl2]

On 9/21/2024 at 2:11 PM, Smash! said:

I think if it was according to Joy they would’ve had a small ceremony at the church, signed the papers and be over with it.

I agree and I have to say, those two do suit each other. They couldn't take the tomboy out of her and I don't think Austin would have been happy if they had. 

[LongTimeLurkerOG]

11 hours ago, AverageGiraffe said:

It's interesting to me, and concerning to me, how often I forget that men struggle with body image and looks in a similar way to women (although it presents itself much differently, generally speaking). I think that's in part because those concerns are brushed off by others, or other men respond with teasing or making fun of them (whole host of thoughts about how we socialize men there), or they just don't feel comfortable talking about vulnerable things (or maybe even admitting them to themselves!). There's also the thing that many men do where they make fun of themselves or joke about it (their beer guts, their baldness, their height) and make it seem like they genuinely don't care, unless you really pay attention. 

I've found if I'm in a group of men, especially emotionally closed off men or men without a support system, and especially my age or older men, so mid-thirties up, (and honestly I'm often around those groups) it's pretty easy to see if I actually pay attention who's feelings are getting hurt, who is actually insecure, and who feels very alone in that. It makes me sad. 

And then I see things like my husband start paying attention to his diet and obsessing over lifting weights, or my slim partner talking about wanting to lose a few pounds, and I notice, to my shame, my first reaction is to kind of blow it off (no honey, I don't think anyone in the world has noticed you've lost a quarter inch of size on your biceps, and I'm not even sure it's true. Lose weight? From where?!) which is really invalidating. But noticing these things in them and in myself has helped shift my perspective on not just how I view and react to men, but to everyone. 

That's a long rant to say there's a lot to snark on about fundies. Clothing choices really don't bother me, when it's related to fundie-ness (modesty panels, etc). But I know that if I was being snarked on online, the thing that would wound me deeply and maybe irreparably, would be someone talking about my hair or weight or nose or general attractiveness. And I don't think most, or maybe any, of our fundies deserve that. 

TL;DR: it's also not okay to make fun of men for their appearance, I see pushback against it often, and I think there should be more. We don't need to be assholes to anyone. 

Absolutely. Using that language to talk about the way others dress is not a single bit different than that way that fundies talk about everyone else. Ungodly, worldly, heathen, eye trap. It all means the same thing: you (general you, no one in particular) thinks that people should dress to X standard and they don't and you have an idea of what dressing outside of that standard means (they're unsaved, they're a bad Christian, they're no better than a whore or a stripper). And that's not even touching on the idea of what "no better than a whore or a stripper" implies and what kind of value judgments those statements mean (because SW is real work and SWers are people too who are valuable and important for their humanity and not less than because of what they do for a living). It's gross from men, but it's grosser to me from women, because the reasons women think it tend to be more cruel and vitriolic when you get down to it. 

The language was partly the point - same as people do on here, use for snarking jillpm and other discussions, just different words. The high horse is funny sometimes, yes I have been lurking a long time. I know there's double standards at times for different posters. I was enjoying the chats and positive responses. 

I'm well versed in American culture, how toxic some (many) things are for women, and body image issues, etc. I have my own, and it is worse for survivors' mindset. I can also have opinions, too, as do we all.  Back to dealing with hurricane prep. 

 

I haven't read all of your post yet, but yes, men too

Edited yesterday at 01:41 AM by LongTimeLurkerOG

[just_ordinary]

Time to update my personal ranking I guess. I must confess, I have kinda lost track of all the newlyweds. 
From worst to best:

Anna - it’s just so loveless. Nothing against plain, crazy modest and pre-used. But ironing? A bit of fitting? And I just can’t get over the husband.

Jill - Frankendress galore

Claire - someone called it grandmas curtain and that’s just it- not in a good way (because there are some that look amazing and can be pulled of beautifully)

Abby - that’s just the bog standard wedding dress. No personality whatsoever. So boring I forget it as soon as I don’t see it.

Jessa - didn’t age well, BUT has lots of personality  

Joy, Katey and Hannah - similar dresses. I like the style a lot.

Kendra - her personality in a dress (at least from what we saw at the show at the time): bubbly, cute, carefree, young

Jinger, Jana - both dresses fit the trends at the time at the wedding. Both felt new and exciting for the Duggars at the time and they look elegant and will age well.

Lauren - apart from the hair, her dress has a spectacular back and she pulled off the “plain”/ undecorated more sculpted and classic line well before it was such a big trend. It fit her more “demure”/serious character (that she showed at the show at the time). The figure hugging cut and the low back made it almost scandalous then.

 

[LongTimeLurkerOG]

2 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Time to update my personal ranking I guess. I must confess, I have kinda lost track of all the newlyweds. 
From worst to best:

Anna - it’s just so loveless. Nothing against plain, crazy modest and pre-used. But ironing? A bit of fitting? And I just can’t get over the husband.

Jill - Frankendress galore

Claire - someone called it grandmas curtain and that’s just it- not in a good way (because there are some that look amazing and can be pulled of beautifully)

Abby - that’s just the bog standard wedding dress. No personality whatsoever. So boring I forget it as soon as I don’t see it.

Jessa - didn’t age well, BUT has lots of personality  

Joy, Katey and Hannah - similar dresses. I like the style a lot.

Kendra - her personality in a dress (at least from what we saw at the show at the time): bubbly, cute, carefree, young

Jinger, Jana - both dresses fit the trends at the time at the wedding. Both felt new and exciting for the Duggars at the time and they look elegant and will age well.

Lauren - apart from the hair, her dress has a spectacular back and she pulled off the “plain”/ undecorated more sculpted and classic line well before it was such a big trend. It fit her more “demure”/serious character (that she showed at the show at the time). The figure hugging cut and the low back made it almost scandalous then.

 

Anna's "loveless dress" ... much like her marriage and life. That's sad (kinda; usual disclaimers). 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

23 hours ago, Johannah said:

Where can I find this video?

 

[viii]

17 hours ago, LongTimeLurkerOG said:

The high horse is funny sometimes, yes I have been lurking a long time. I know there's double standards at times for different posters. I was enjoying the chats and positive responses. 

Holding you accountable for what you say isn't being on a high horse, nor is there a double standard. If anyone else had made the same comments you did, I would have responded to them as well. 

[Alisamer]

19 hours ago, LongTimeLurkerOG said:

The language was partly the point - same as people do on here, use for snarking jillpm and other discussions, just different words. The high horse is funny sometimes, yes I have been lurking a long time. I know there's double standards at times for different posters. I was enjoying the chats and positive responses. 

 

Maybe think of it this way... would you use "gay" as a negative descriptor? I hope not. That used to be (and probably still is) common among certain groups, particularly young men, at least when I was younger. "Ugh, dude, that's gay." and that sort of thing when they don't like something.

That's offensive, and you wouldn't do it, right? Because implying that something is bad because it's "gay" is implicitly implying that "gay" is a bad, negative thing. 

In your post you did the same thing, but using "whorish" and "stripper" as the negative descriptors. Implying that sex workers and their work and their clothing choices are inherently bad and negative. This is offensive to many if not most people.

If you'd made the same point without using terms that are insulting to a group of people, nobody would have thought twice about it.

Take for example a friend of mine who had a bit of a struggle helping her daughter find a prom dress. She did NOT say "all the dresses marketed as prom dresses looked whorish," she said "most of the prom dresses were lacking a bit in fabric, for my taste." She, and you, could have said they were scanty, skimpy, cut lower than you like, had higher slits than you like, showed more skin than you preferred, had less coverage than you were comfortable with... any number of things. 

 

[LongTimeLurkerOG]

I don't need to be lectured, respectfully, thanks. 

Busy dealing with a hurricane anyway 

[Alisamer]

4 hours ago, LongTimeLurkerOG said:

I don't need to be lectured, respectfully, thanks. 

Busy dealing with a hurricane anyway 

Not interested in understanding why people are reacting the way they are. Noted. 

[LongTimeLurkerOG]

22 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Not interested in understanding why people are reacting the way they are. Noted. 

You're assuming I don't already know many of the things being said.  and not understanding what I was saying. The tone is condescending. And no, I don't use gay pejoratively nor use queer tho well understand the reclaiming use it was derogatory when I was growing up. 

Edited 8 hours ago by LongTimeLurkerOG

[Alisamer]

Just now, LongTimeLurkerOG said:

You're assuming I don't already know many of the things being said. 

I apologize. I was basing my assumption on your posts saying you were scolded for body shaming and comparing your post to people snarking on JillRod’s appearance. Since that’s not at all what people were taking issue with I offered an analogy in case you were misinterpreting the criticism you’d gotten. 
 

Your post reminded me very much of JillRod recently claiming people were criticizing her for praising purity when people were really criticizing her posting about her kids’ sex lives.

Hope you’re riding out the hurricane safely. I’ve got the tub full in case the power goes out here!

[Kiki03910]

Hope everyone is getting through the hurricane okay. My people in Florida were central and southeast, so all fine.

On topic, I still like Jessa's dress for its simplicity, and color.