Gwen Shamblin Lara 16: Remnant after Gwen [Gwen and other RF leaders dead in plane crash]

[ManyGoats]

3 hours ago, Howl said:

I'm utterly aghast, gobsmacked, literally speecless at reading about Gwen sharing how seeing photos of skeletal Holocaust survivors inspired her weight loss diet  spiritual guide to anorexia and eating disorders.

This is quite interesting to me because in the early days, in her first book "The Weigh Down Diet" published in 1997, she claims that a friend of hers was the inspiration for her weight loss ideas. She doesn't say anything about Holocaust survivors. I wonder when and why she changed that claim?

[Bluebirdbluebell]

1 hour ago, MomJeans said:

1.  Lawyers will claim that it was church business; and if the purchase of the plane was through church funds, that's another avenue as well.  Honestly, it's not as hard as you would think. If the plaintiff attorneys can create enough of a legal argument that it was a church activity, or done with church property, the jury gets to decide.  (There is also an argument of a joint venture between all of the various LLCs that I would expect to see as well).  If RF has a bad reputation in the area, the plaintiffs are looking at a sympathetic jury pool. The fact that it was all church leadership on that plane, and the likelihood that Gwen has been preaching MAGA from the pulpit, certainly give the plaintiffs a fighting chance of prevailing with a jury.  

2.  The closest surviving kin can file the wrongful death lawsuit.  In TN, the court will appoint guardians to oversee all claims by minor children. If just one grandparent or aunt or uncle is not in the cult, they can file with the Court to get the minor's claim taken up.  I believe there are non-RF members on both sides of the Walters family.  Just one has to file.  More importantly, the church can't settle those claims without court involvement. 

3.  The Hannah grandparents can file on behalf of their grandchildren.  I believe they are not in RF.  *Yes, Elizabeth can fight it, but the Court will have to evaluate a conflict of interest, and at least to me, the conflict of interest is solid.  I also wouldn't be surprised if she ends up filing her own claim if she loses the battle for control of the church.

4. All of the Martin children can file for themselves, unless some are still minors. Then same as above.  I know they are in deep with RF, but it's a lot of money potentially.  If there is a Martin underage, the court may even proactively appoint a guardian for them for purposes of the lawsuit.

5. If the claims happen, the church will likely be fighting on two fronts- the plaintiffs, and the various insurance policies involved, which will all decline coverage.  The church may even have to file suits against its insurance carriers. 

*obligatory:  this is not advice, I am not advising anyone to do anything, and everyone should seek their own legal counsel for advice. 

 

I think the Hannah parents would be better off filing wrongful death on their own behalf. It doesn't make sense to me that noncustodial grandparents can sue on their grandchildren's behalf. It seems like a money grab. I also think it's a risky move to alienate the mother of their grandchildren.

I'd be surprised if any of the Martins sued. 

The most likely person to sue the estate might be the mother of Joe's child, since he won't be alive to pay child support.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

11 minutes ago, Destiny said:

(I think it means no no-fault divorce in this context).

That's my understanding as well.  Insert my usual rant about how I'm enraged that they can co-opt our legal system to enforce their religious beliefs.  If you're all about no divorce fine, don't get one....but don't use our bureaucracy to make it harder for your spouse to leave you if they come to their senses.

14 minutes ago, Destiny said:

I here I thought I was weird for making up my own religion where my main guiding principle is the veneration of cats and being a decent human being. (no, I'm not accepting new members.)

When were you going to tell me I could stop tithing?

14 minutes ago, Destiny said:

That's what I thought of too. So she's taken aspects of LDS, Mainstream Christianity, Judaism and who knows what else to make her own religion? 

Makes sense to me.  My personal belief system involves edibles, Van Halen, animal supremacy, the aesthetic and genius of Andy Scott, historic true crime, and sudoku.  Practicing requires wasting a lot of time online.

 

19 minutes ago, Destiny said:

I actually really love the bodice on the dress from what we can see. The skirt is a JUST NO though, and the fit is all wrong for her.

I missed that she was even wearing a dress since I couldn't see past the hair.  Agree on the bodice.  Old me would have criticized it being a style decades too young for her, but since I realize if I thought she was a good person I'd applaud her for doing what she likes conformity be damned I don't hold that against her.

The hair though....I've sent pics of the hair to some people who know nothing about her, FJ, or anything just for my own amusement and I got everything from "it looks like your Barbies' hair because you never took care of them" to "very funny Mom, nice photochop."  

Fwiw if my hair looked like that my daughter would be holding a family meeting behind my back to discuss what was wrong with mom and once she realized it was a style choice....my non-violent little girl would be having me sedated while she came at me with a comb, scissors, and all the conditioner.

[hoipolloi]

In spending so many years as a cult leader, Gwen clearly got into the habit of saying & doing whatever she wanted at any time. She knew that her cult members would not contradict her in any way, and no one outside the cult knew much about it.

This is what allowed her to lie repeatedly & blatantly in this series of videos [CW for descriptions of child abuse] with a local TV station some years ago. Even when they played recordings of her saying exactly what she denied saying, she wasn't disturbed in the least but just kept on denying everything. Was she aware of how bad this all looked or did she feel sufficiently insulated from any consequences? 

 

[Blue]

6 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Scientology was a cult of personality too. They still revere L Ron Hubbard. Gwen will be like him, becoming even more godlike in death than she was in life. Cults, especially well-organized and rich ones, will double down after their founder dies. 

My husband and I have been talking about this non stop... And as much as we desperately wish this would bring our family out of the cult and back home, we don't think it will. We are convinced this will go Scientology style. I doubt leadership or Gwen's kids will do much teaching or writing, but I do think that her works will gain even higher "holy book" status and her words will become like canon.

I don't like saying that - I want our family OUT - but aside from newer members, I doing see too many leaving UNLESS (and this is our hope) there ends up being a nasty and protracted power struggle. Even then I don't think our family will leave, but I do think more will leave overall.

[Coconut Flan]

1 hour ago, Destiny said:

I'd be curious to see what the definition of covenant is in the context of Remnant, since their religious practices seem to be outside the mainstream of "regular" Christianity. Usually "normal" fundies mean it as sacred vows before god outside the couple states that have covenant marriage (I think it means no no-fault divorce in this context).

I think they're using covenant as the usual meaning of a solemn, binding agreement.  Since, Gwen was already divorced once, it may just have meant binding until she decided it didn't.  

Tennessee isn't one of the states with a legal covenant marriage option so it may have just sounded good to her to use a fancy word.  

Edited May 31, 2021 by Coconut Flan

[thoughtful]

1 hour ago, AmazonGrace said:

   There was a weird devotional that described Heaven (I am assuming) as this bizarre cross between Star Wars and the Truman Show or Pleasantville. Saints from thousands of centuries (Homo sapiens emerged 300 000 years ago so this is technically possible) live on a planet, far far away, protected from all negative emotion by colossal walls and pearly gates. Why do you need walls if you're on a far away planet, and how would walls stop feelings anyhow I'm not sure. Then we have this recital about what happened to Jesus after he died: 

Those were . . . something.  Thanks.

Now I'm even more curious about what RF teaches about death, and how they are expected (because cults have expectations about everything, and this one was no exception) to mourn.

I hope those who are truly in pain get some privacy and freedom, of course.

[Destiny]

16 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

When were you going to tell me I could stop tithing?

Never. Aunt Buffy telling them they are pretty is important to the god and goddess of my religion!  

Don't get me wrong, I would never wear the dress that Gwen wore, but I didn't hate it other than the skirt and the titscrepancy in the bodice. The hair though, the hair gives me nightmares. How do you wash it? You know the old urban legend about the girl who never washed or brushed her hair and spiders laid eggs? That is what I think about every time I see that hair. *shudder*

11 minutes ago, Blue said:

UNLESS (and this is our hope) there ends up being a nasty and protracted power struggle. Even then I don't think our family will leave, but I do think more will leave overall.

I think there's a reasonable chance of this happening. It seems like there are is a pretty reasonable amount of riches to be spread around, and I don't think messy battles over the custody of said riches are unlikely. 

I think (hope) the whole house of cards will collapse, but it might take a couple of years. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Destiny

[livinglongerthanyou]

Juan does a great job, as always, of explaining what most certainly happened. Whoever was flying, got disoriented and exceeded the speed the plane could handle. The result was that it broke apart mid-air. 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

In spending so many years as a cult leader, Gwen clearly got into the habit of saying & doing whatever she wanted at any time. She knew that her cult members would not contradict her in any way, and no one outside the cult knew much about it.

This is what allowed her to lie repeatedly & blatantly in this series of videos [CW for descriptions of child abuse] with a local TV station some years ago. Even when they played recordings of her saying exactly what she denied saying, she wasn't disturbed in the least but just kept on denying everything. Was she aware of how bad this all looked or did she feel sufficiently insulated from any consequences? 

 

I think this is very similar to Trump.  Malignant people who have escaped accountability for great harm over decades seem to think they are untouchable.  The mention of accountability is an affront.

But it works...because they both got more and more outrageous and said horrible things that would ruin the empires of others and not only were they not held accountable, but they were rewarded with more power and profit.   

To your question I think she was unaware of how it came off when she was saying it, and if she had some pangs of common sense later she could brush them off knowing she won't get any pushback that matters.

[RFsurvivor]

49 minutes ago, Cam said:

Speaking of weddings. While looking up info on Gwen I came across a short clip of her and Joe’s nuptials. Omg. A sixty-something year old woman dressing like a Disney Princess meets MyBig Fat American Gypsy Wedding  (TLC has so many horror shows). 

Its labelled a “covenant” wedding. Something about using the word covenant to describe Christian stuff makes me want to hyperventilate.  Can’t they just say its a friggin wedding? 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Have you seen the engagement video?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, Destiny said:

Don't get me wrong, I would never wear the dress that Gwen wore, but I didn't hate it other than the skirt. The hair though, the hair gives me nightmares. How do you wash it? You know the old urban legend about the girl who never washed or brushed her hair and spiders laid eggs? That is what I think about every time I see that hair. *shudder*

I think of that same urban legend every time I see her hair.  Even if I liked it I couldn't do that because I would feel filthy and the spider thing...shudder.

[JenniferJuniper]

15 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

It doesn't make sense to me that noncustodial grandparents can sue on their grandchildren's behalf. It seems like a money grab. I also think it's a risky move to alienate the mother of their grandchildren.

You're correct. It's highly unlikely the Hannah grandparents will be involved with any claims on behalf of their grandchildren. Their mother is alive.  Elizabeth will probably also be the executor/administrator of her husband's estate, and as such, will be the person to bring any wrongful death action.

Hannah's parents may be able to bring forth their own claims for the loss of their son, but unless they were financially dependent upon them to some extent, their claims may have limited merit.  

[jakesykora]

A crane is being moved out on a barge to eventually lift whatever large plane debris they've found out:

 

And boat with red hazmat bags was seen pulling debris out of the lake earlier:

 

I've not seen any signs that there has been another presser yet or that there will be today unless there's significant news (especially since it seems like any other info is really going to have to come from the NTSB) but if I see one, I'll continue to summarize or transcribe if there's anything interesting/noteworthy.

Edited May 31, 2021 by jakesykora

[hoipolloi]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think of that same urban legend every time I see her hair. 

Same here. I could  never look at all the beehive hairdos back in the day without thinking about what might be lurking underneath.

[RFsurvivor]

43 minutes ago, SoSoNosy said:

My daughter was into Weigh Down back when it first got started; she pulled out quick when things started going weird.  She said Gwen told people they were going to Hell for being overweight.

Yep. Gwen once told me directly I was going to hell because I was maybe 15 lbs overweight by remnant standards. Still wearing like a dress size 8. 

[Destiny]

15 minutes ago, jakesykora said:

I've not seen any signs that there has been another presser yet or that there will be today unless there's significant news (especially since it seems like any other info is really going to have to come from the NTSB) but if I see one, I'll continue to summarize or transcribe if there's anything interesting/noteworthy.

Please, thank you! I'm particularly interested to hear if there's any sign of a black box being found, since as far as I know we still aren't even sure there was one.

I'm very curious to see what final denouement of the accident investigation will be, whether it's the theories about overspeeding or something else in the end, while knowing that realistically by the time that report comes out I will have long forgotten Gwen existed, which honestly is probably the way the world always should have been. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Destiny

[throwaway9988]

5 minutes ago, Blue said:

My husband and I have been talking about this non stop... And as much as we desperately wish this would bring our family out of the cult and back home, we don't think it will. We are convinced this will go Scientology style. I doubt leadership or Gwen's kids will do much teaching or writing, but I do think that her works will gain even higher "holy book" status and her words will become like canon.

I don't like saying that - I want our family OUT - but aside from newer members, I doing see too many leaving UNLESS (and this is our hope) there ends up being a nasty and protracted power struggle. Even then I don't think our family will leave, but I do think more will leave overall.

I don't expect too much to change either, at least not for a long time.  The people in the cult all want to keep feeling the things Remnant makes them feel.  Removing Gwen from the equation doesn't change that.  Whoever takes over instead of Gwen can still manipulate the Remnant members in all the same ways as before. I wouldn't be surprised if the leaders are stirring up the members to be more invested in Remnant than ever using a lot of rhetoric about 1) God testing the church/Satan attacking the church, 2) the church needing to be pure more than ever because dark days are ahead/they need to be ready, 3) how they all need to stick to God's established lines of authority in order to ensure they are doing what God wants, etc.  The same playbook Gwen has used for years still works, even without Gwen. 

The Remnant doesn't believe anything was overly special about Gwen other than that she was more in touch with God's leading than the rest of them and she was obediently passing on God's lead to the rest of them.  She was the first person in this day and age to listen to God and help other learn to listen to him too, but anyone can listen to God.  Every individual in Remnant aspires to be perfectly obedient with God and more and more in touch with his leading every day.  So nothing is stopping them from continuing to follow God and stay a Remnant member.  Nothing is stopping them from obediently following the next authority God puts above them.  Nothing is stopping a new leader from rising, one that might even be called a prophet one day.  

Just because Gwen is gone doesn't mean the Remnant members have fundamentally changed.  They are still the same people who are desperate to keep believing the things they believe and keep feeling the way being a Remnant member makes them feel.  So I agree with you, the newer people might fall away in the short term due to this event, but in the long term their rates of growth/attrition might not change much, particularly with regard to longstanding members.  

[Bluebirdbluebell]

About the MAGA rally, I did research on it which I posted earlier in this thread. It seemed really easy to sponsor the event, there was link at the end of the web page. I wouldn't be surprised if they took sponsorship donations of a variety of sizes. I think it's a grift.

I also did research on Patrick Byrne, who was one of the big speakers at the even. The event misled people to believe he is still the CEO of Overstock .com, which he is not.  He resigned in 2019 and sold his shares in the company. He was forced to resign, because he was entangled in the Russia investigation--by virtue of dating the Russian agent at the center of the case. 

[Destiny]

5 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I wouldn't be surprised if they took sponsorship donations of a variety of sizes. I think it's a grift.

They did and it totally was. I was just trying to figure out if the money would actually be used to further some cause or candidate, and as far as I can tell the answer is no. It appears to have only been to further the pocketbook of the organizer. 

Edit: if anyone is curious, the sponsorship levels are on this page:

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/we-the-people-patriots-day-tickets-149984835681#

Edited May 31, 2021 by Destiny

[MomJeans]

Sadly, Joe's child may have the hardest obstacles legally. In wrongful death, typically the survivor is in the shoes of the deceased. In many states his survivor's recovery would reduced by his proportion of negligence (I'm not being specific to TN, it could be different there).  Of course, an argument will be that Gwen is responsible for giving him a plane he couldn't fly, and suing the plane manufacturer as well. I hope she gets money.  I have a bad feeling that Joe had very few assets in his name that would pass through a will or intestacy. 

And I just see it differently.  I don't know that Elizabeth can have the children's legal rights at heart if she is the new leader of the church, and probable beneficiary of Gwen's will/trusts.  I've seen conflict of interest override surviving parent and executors of wills, as the court has to specially protect the interests of minor children.  

Nothing can replace their parents.  But I'd personally rather see the money go to the children than continuing to spread a damaging message of anorexia and child abuse. 

 

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

4 hours ago, Howl said:

What other classic faves do we want in the wedding party?

Stevehovah can discuss his vasectomy reversal.

[MamaJunebug]

43 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

The hair though....I've sent pics of the hair to some people who know nothing about her, FJ, or anything just for my own amusement and I got everything from "it looks like your Barbies' hair because you never took care of them" to "very funny Mom, nice photochop."  

Since you brought it up, after the initial shock wore off, I had this thought. If it’s too soon, I’m spoilering it and will erase it entirely if need be:

Spoiler

Scene: A fisher on Percy Priest Lake reels in one of the deceased’s hairpieces ..... 

 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

7 minutes ago, MomJeans said:

And I just see it differently.  I don't know that Elizabeth can have the children's legal rights at heart if she is the new leader of the church, and probable beneficiary of Gwen's will/trusts.  I've seen conflict of interest override surviving parent and executors of wills, as the court has to specially protect the interests of minor children.  

Nothing can replace their parents.  But I'd personally rather see the money go to the children than continuing to spread a damaging message of anorexia and child abuse. 

 

None of this makes sense to me.

If Elizabeth is in control of the estate, and the grandparents are suing the estate, it sounds like they're taking money from their grandchildren's mother and therefore their grandchildren.

It also sounds like the grandparents/other relatives would have to prove that Elizabeth wasn't going to use that money for the children's continuing care. 

Also do we even know if Brandon has relatives who could sue?

[Xan]

12 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

Since you brought it up, after the initial shock wore off, I had this thought. If it’s too soon, I’m spoilering it and will erase it entirely if need be:

  Hide contents

Scene: A fisher on Percy Priest Lake reels in one of the deceased’s hairpieces ..... 

 

Thank you.  That thought had already crossed my mind as well.  

Spoiler

As big and tangled as Gwen's hair was, it might be one of the larger things they find.