Gwen Shamblin Lara 16: Remnant after Gwen [Gwen and other RF leaders dead in plane crash]

[Destiny]

Just now, Zebedee said:

Yep. Actually, it's even worse, implying Elizabeth is involved. People really suck

Pardon me while I vomit. 

FJ, I can't stop you from posting this bullshit, because it's not against the rules, but please, can we be better than Reddit? Pretty, pretty please?

[RFsurvivor]

9 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Is this also Gwen's RF or something else? If it is, interesting that it's a non-profit (since 2003) but there are NO IRS 990s available:

What’s interesting it the address isn’t the address of the actual church but the former Weigh Down Building office that Gwen lost in the divorce. 

[AmazonGrace]

I can't see how anybody would know about sabotage at this point of the investigation unless they witnessed something. And what kind of people would witness airplane sabotage and not raise an alarm to prevent fatalities? 

I am going to file that under Things That Never Happened until proven otherwise.

[FusterCluck]

59 minutes ago, JesusPony said:

Is The Tennessean a reputable news source? I've heard of it before, but not sure of its history. The reason I ask is there is a very cut and dry sentence in this article:

According to the Federal Aviation Administration website, no one on that flight was qualified to fly the plane.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2021/05/30/tennessee-plane-crash-saturday-percy-priest-lake/5271905001/

 

The Tennessean is the major Nashville newspaper. 

[nelliebelle1197]

3 minutes ago, FusterCluck said:

The Tennessean is the major Nashville newspaper. 

And it has been for decades, so yep reliable.

Whenever there is terrible, sourceless speculation, why is it always Reddit?

[MamaJunebug]

Re: flight recorders, etc. Coming in cold so it may have been mentioned, but Percy Priest Lake has lots of nice homes along it. Possibly eyewitness accounts or security cameras will yield information.  I’m sure it won’t be much. 
 

Flashing back to an evening decades ago when I saw a small plane bank like vertically over an interstate. Within seconds - out of my sight -  it hadcrashed beyond the highway, no survivors. That was a heckuva weird feeling, seeing it and hearing about the crash as I got home later. 
 

Bless the survivors.  Especially the children. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by MamaJunebug

[Queen Of Hearts]

Remnant posted the following on their website:

May 30, 2021 – Brentwood, TN

The seven Remnant Fellowship leaders lost May 29, 2021 were some of the finest and most loving people that you would ever come across. During this horrible tragedy, our church would greatly appreciate prayers.  

We want everyone who was affected, especially the children of the passengers, to know that they are very loved and our church will be taking special care of the children’s needs in these coming years. 

Gwen Shamblin Lara was one of the world’s most kind, gentle, and selfless mother and wife, and a loyal, caring, supportive best friend to all. She lived every day laying down her own life to ensure that others could find a relationship with God. Because of that, her memory will definitely remain for a long time as she has a place in millions of people’s hearts around the world through her work with Weigh Down Ministries and Remnant Fellowship Church. Her wonderful and supportive husband, Joe Lara, will also be greatly missed.  

The other passengers who perished in the crash were Remnant Fellowship leaders who were very involved in the community and loved by many –  David and Jennifer Martin, Jonathan and Jessica Walters, and Brandon Hannah. 

On behalf of Remnant Fellowship Church, we would like to thank the First Responders and all who have helped our church and these families during this difficult time.

Finally, as far as Remnant Fellowship Church and Weigh Down Ministries are concerned, Michael Shamblin and Elizabeth Shamblin Hannah, Gwen’s two children, and the church leadership intend to continue the dream that Gwen Shamblin Lara had of helping people find a relationship with God.

[luv2laugh]

Elizabeth is at such a severely underweight weight that if she leads this, I fear it may become a more severe type of anorexia cult. Hopefully not. Maybe she will gain some weight if there's less pressure? More extreme/ less extreme-it could go either way.

Edited May 30, 2021 by luv2laugh

[MamaJunebug]

Neither pilot aboard was rated to fly.

My feelings go from grief for the children to disgust all over again.

But mostly, grief for the children. And the other loved ones who will miss those individuals so much.

 

[Blue]

28 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Remnant posted the following on their website:

May 30, 2021 – Brentwood, TN

The seven Remnant Fellowship leaders lost May 29, 2021 were some of the finest and most loving people that you would ever come across. During this horrible tragedy, our church would greatly appreciate prayers.  

We want everyone who was affected, especially the children of the passengers, to know that they are very loved and our church will be taking special care of the children’s needs in these coming years. 

Gwen Shamblin Lara was one of the world’s most kind, gentle, and selfless mother and wife, and a loyal, caring, supportive best friend to all. She lived every day laying down her own life to ensure that others could find a relationship with God. Because of that, her memory will definitely remain for a long time as she has a place in millions of people’s hearts around the world through her work with Weigh Down Ministries and Remnant Fellowship Church. Her wonderful and supportive husband, Joe Lara, will also be greatly missed.  

The other passengers who perished in the crash were Remnant Fellowship leaders who were very involved in the community and loved by many –  David and Jennifer Martin, Jonathan and Jessica Walters, and Brandon Hannah. 

On behalf of Remnant Fellowship Church, we would like to thank the First Responders and all who have helped our church and these families during this difficult time.

Finally, as far as Remnant Fellowship Church and Weigh Down Ministries are concerned, Michael Shamblin and Elizabeth Shamblin Hannah, Gwen’s two children, and the church leadership intend to continue the dream that Gwen Shamblin Lara had of helping people find a relationship with God.

It makes me both sad and angry that the other deaths were treated as afterthoughts in their statement. I understand that she was the leader of the group and this is the group's response, but even her husband and son are barely mentioned.

I'm trying to remind myself that this was put together 24 hours after tragedy... We're not all in our right minds at that point... But I also think this was likely written by the PR team.

[AmazonGrace]

All that  praise for Gwen and the rest got just their names dropped and nothing further about their good qualities.   So much personality cult.  

[Blue]

26 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

Elizabeth is at such a severely underweight weight that if she leads this, I fear it may become a more severe type of anorexia cult. Hopefully not. Maybe she will gain some weight if there's less pressure? More extreme/ less extreme-it could go either way.

I've wondered if the stress and pressure of being children of the prophet led to Elizabeth's extreme anorexia and Michael's weight gain.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Let’s hope Elizabeth takes time to grieve instead of pushing herself into cult leadership immediately. 

[RFsurvivor]

I dunno that last paragraph makes it sound like they are prepping for Elizabeth and Michael to take over 

[nelliebelle1197]

Just now, RFsurvivor said:

I dunno that last paragraph makes it sound like they are prepping for Elizabeth and Michael to take over 

I thought the same thing. Would Michael = Erin?

[JermajestyDuggar]

Just now, nelliebelle1197 said:

I thought the same thing. Would Michael = Erin?

They would stick Michael behind a piano the whole time. That’s what they seem to do now. 

[MamaJunebug]

17 minutes ago, Blue said:

I've wondered if the stress and pressure of being children of the prophet led to Elizabeth's extreme anorexia and Michael's weight gain.

No-shame zone:

I've been quietly amazed that with so little body mass, Eliz has conceived and birthed that many children.  Seems like she beat the odds there.  The stress of the loss of her husband, her mother, and 5 key personalities at RF must be intense.  Younger women than she have passed away from heart failure.  My anxiety rises for her.

Possibly her dad and her brother will help moderate her actions and reactions.  Just sharing her grief with four young, young, half-orphaned children is going to take so much out of her.  Losing her mother/leader is one thing.  Losing her husband and father of her children as well ....

[JermajestyDuggar]

27 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

No-shame zone:

I've been quietly amazed that with so little body mass, Eliz has conceived and birthed that many children.  Seems like she beat the odds there.  The stress of the loss of her husband, her mother, and 5 key personalities at RF must be intense.  Younger women than she have passed away from heart failure.  My anxiety rises for her.

Possibly her dad and her brother will help moderate her actions and reactions.  Just sharing her grief with four young, young, half-orphaned children is going to take so much out of her.  Losing her mother/leader is one thing.  Losing her husband and father of her children as well ....

Elizabeth was more of an average weight when she conceived her older 3 girls. She was still thin, but not alarmingly so. I believe she lost a baby boy before Charles Granthem. I don’t know if that’s when she lost some weight, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was around that time. I believe the baby was named after Gwen’s maiden name. He was very young when he died.

[MamaJunebug]

1 minute ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Elizabeth was more of an average weight when she conceived her older 3 girls. She was still thin, but not alarmingly so. I believe she lost a baby boy before Charles Granthem. I don’t know if that’s when she lost some weight, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was around that time. I believe the baby was named after Gwen’s maiden name. He was very young when he died.

I did not know that. Thank you. 

[RFSurvivor_2]

1 hour ago, Blue said:

But I also think this was likely written by the PR team.

This situation is pure irony considering the fact that Tedd and Candice were removed from leadership and the PR positions. Despite my personal feelings towards those two, I openly acknowledge that they were / are the most qualified individuals to perform PR in that place. 
 

I wonder if they will make a resurgence...
 

Edited May 31, 2021 by RFSurvivor_2

[throwaway9988]

1 minute ago, RFSurvivor_2 said:

This situation is pure irony considering the fact that Tedd and Candice were removed from leadership and the PR positions. 
 

Tedd was always super Republican too, and throwing his weight around to try to make all the members vote Republican.  In years past it's likely he would have been aboard this plane.

[Willow]

7 hours ago, tsukinokawa said:

I am speechless. I didn't follow Gwen that much here but I never thought that one day she would die in a plane crash. r.i.p to her and other victims

I have been expecting this ever since they bought the Cessna.... Not surprised. Sad, upset. But not surprised. 

[jakesykora]

Newest presser from within the last half hour or so:

Rutherford County Ashley McDonald, Public Information Officer (has been lead PIO on this):

• Extend sincere condolences  on behalf of all agencies to family/friends of those involved in this terrible tragedy
• Committed to working with federal partners to do everything they can to bring closure and appreciate patience in that process.
• Thanking all agencies involved in helping
• NTSB, FAA, etc. have worked tirelessly around the clock
• Have pulled several components of the aircraft from the water as well as human remains
• Rutherford County ME (medical examiner) is working with immediate family to help ID victims

Some family members have issued statements that they wanted to be released, so person holding presser reads statements:

• Elizabeth's statement (slightly different than the one posted by RF) The 7 RF leaders lost yesterday including my husband and mother were some of the finest and most righteous people she has ever known, wants the entire world to know that her mother GSL was the kindest and most gentle, selfless, loving mother and best friend to E and her brother Michael. Her actions and words changed thousands of lives for the better and her message about loving God with all your heart will live on forever and ever and continue to change lives for all eternity.  Her beloved husband, Brandon, took on the message of love for God first and was truly one of the most selfless and loving spouses and fathers on the planet. Whole world needs to know if they have lost hope they will find hope and peace and love from the message poured out from RF and that the amazing 7 leaders will go down as some of the most loving and finest Christians in history that anyone could meet. Includes a quote from one of GSL's books about even one righteous life can change the world
• Michael's statement also being read: On behalf of family thanks LE and first responders for helping with the horrible tragedy, asking for prayers, hope everyone affected, that especially the children of the other passengers will know they are very loved and they hope to take special care of their needs in the coming years, his mother was a special person and her memory will definitely remain for a very long time as she has a place of millions of peoples hearts around the world due to her work with the Weigh Down Workshop, Joe was a wonderful husband to his mother and he will be missed, again thanks everyone who has helped during this time
•  Ashton Martin Joest(?) (Martin family daughter) and Diane McCord on behalf of Martin family statement: express gratitude to rescue personnel, police, investigators, and Rutherford authorities assisting with the tragic incident, for helping, including those they met with last night, thanks everyone who has reached out with prayers and well wishes.

Back to presser lady speaking and not reading statements.

• Reminder to anyone in the area that although it's a holiday weekend, the Lamar Hill boat ramp and the Fate Sanders Recreation Area are closed
• Questions to be directed to the NTSB going forward if about the investigation as they are on site and taking over that portion (as was stated earlier)

John Ingle Capt Rutherford Co Fire/Rescue statement:

• Became IC early this am; recovery continued over night and surface and water searches took place overnight until about 10 am this am. 
• Many agencies began dive operations, numerous aircraft components have been recovered. 
• FAA and NTSB are onsite and processing the scene
• Again asking people to stay out of the area (land and water) around the site, is being patrolled by LE and other agencies
• Will not continue the search work overnight, but will resume recovery operations again in the am due to safety

Answers to Q's: 

• How will you get the aircraft out of the water? Will work over the next few days to remove remaining wreckage; may use a crane or some lifting mechanism like airbags
• Was there a black box or something like that? Will have to ask NTSB that
• Can you talk about what specifically was recovered today? No, refer to NTSB
• Has the exact impact location been determined?  No.
• (Can't hear question due to background noise)
• Any challenges at this point? The lake has very low visibility so hard to work through the site to find everything in the black waters as they call it
• Something about the ME working with family, have they (family) been able to positively identify anyone yet? Again, NTSB question.
• Lots of black box/investigation questions I'll not post since they keep saying that's NTSB related questions. They (RC) can't answer any of those questions
• What resources will be used tomorrow? Everything/everyone still on site as far as agencies and equipment, etc.
• When will resources be pulled back? They don't know now. That's also really an NTSB question.
• Will there be an NTSB statement? Or? Rutherford County PIO will either let media know if so, or NTSB will contact them (media) directly if there is.
• How many people involved in the recovery effort? Have about 100 on scene at any given time (so far more than that since they are in shifts)
• Reiterates thanks to media for helping to get the message out to keep boaters/gawkers out of the area

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by jakesykora

[PennySycamore]

6 hours ago, JesusPony said:

Is The Tennessean a reputable news source? I've heard of it before, but not sure of its history. The reason I ask is there is a very cut and dry sentence in this article:

According to the Federal Aviation Administration website, no one on that flight was qualified to fly the plane.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2021/05/30/tennessee-plane-crash-saturday-percy-priest-lake/5271905001/

 

The Tennessean is the daily newspaper in Nashville and I think it has the largest circulation of any newspaper in Tennessee.  It has a good reputation.

[AirBeagle]

Hello. Long-time reader/first-time, shy poster here. I didn't plan on posting much or at all. But I have three reasons to do so: This happened just south from us here in Donelson; my family was destroyed by Bill Gothard and his ideology and his copycats; and I'm a journalist/teacher/author who writes books on airplane crashes (search for "Deadly Turbulence" published by McFarland in 2014 if interested).

TL:DR: RiP, but no sympathy for authoritarian cultists headed for MAGA rallies hosted by insurrectionists bent on overthrowing democracy; and aviation is very complex and the investigation will take 12-24 months, but Tarzan appears to have lost control, stalled the aircraft, or become disoriented and put it in the lake.

So, here are my two longer responses with apologies for length, for whatever they're worth:

1. I have high empathy for everyone. Yeah, RiP and all that. But. I also have no problem being contrarian and negative: Where are the accolades and sorrow for all the lives these folks, and Gothard, et al, have destroyed? Divorces, deaths, irrevocable splits in families, coercion, egotism, massive wealth accumulation, etc.?

My sister's family STILL deals with, oh, let's see, coercion and emotional blackmail, having Gothard himself love-bomb them and use my nephew and niece as unpaid labor in OKC, Indy, and Oak Brook; 40 years of paying Gothard thousands for home school materials; I still deal with long-term trauma from my brushes with his ideologues; and on and on the list goes.

We went to BG's seminars first around 1979. 40+ years of all this destruction and I'm supposed to mourn or regret the deaths of seven people who spent their lives copying him, directly or indirectly? Seven people are dead. Sorry. But I still have trauma from the last 40 years. Where's the lists of all the others who should be properly mourned/supported? Where's em/sympathy for us?

Also, they were on their way to a rally for the MAGA/Trump crowd featuring the traitor Gen. Flynn and a host of insurrectionists and their apologists. Sorry to be negative and contrarian, but ... no. I stand with secular democracy, not with authoritarians bent on overthrowing the government. Sad for our hurting fellow humans, but one would hope the survivors in the cult learn something. But they will not. The grift is too lucrative, the lust for power too strong.

2. From my plane crash investigation and reporting (not a pilot, don't claim to be; have almost 50 years of study in this area thought), I hope the following is useful for non-aviation types (skip or whatever—it's a mostly fact and sprinklings of my opinion?

A. Basic info:

1. N66BK was the registration number of this Cessna 501 Citation I/SP with two Pratt & Whitney Canada JT15D-1B jet aircraft, built in 1982 with seating for two pilots and six passengers. That means this aircraft was fully loaded. Air Traffic Control uses that registration number for the flight's call sign; in this case, 66-Bravo-Kilo (in the NATO phonetic alphabet: alpha, beta, charlie, delta, echo, etc.). That's what you hear on the audio.
2. An aircraft built in 1982 is not terribly old; it is overhauled many times in its lifetime (assuming that Tarzan did pony up money for the required maintenance—not necessarily the case). It's engines were almost certainly just a few years old; avionics/instruments were almost certainly new; etc. We'll find out more later. For reference, one currently for sale on jetlistings.com has about 5,960 hours/5,749 landings (not very high for private jets; airliners can have upwards of 90,000 on the high end). Other listings show purchase prices ranging from $399,000 to $500,000.
3. Tarzan's medical certification had expired. He was operating the aircraft illegally. Period. Brandon was not "type-certified," meaning he was unqualified to fly the aircraft, even if he was a pilot. Every different type of aircraft requires pilot training, certification and experience. If you fly for the airlines in a 737, and then they want you to fly an A220, you must go through the type rating system before you'll be allowed in the other aircraft's cockpit. These types love to thumb their noses at "gummint" and "rools and reggalations", but doing so may well have killed them. These laws/regulations are there for reasons dating back over decades. Again, bought in blood.
4. They took off from runway 32 (pointed at 320 degrees or to the northwest) at Smyrna Airport, KMQY. "K" stands for airports in the U.S., MQY is the FAA identifier. KBNA is Nashville International; BNA derives from its original name, Berry Field, Nashville.
5. "One three zero" or 130 degrees stands for the heading ATC wanted Joe to fly. There are 360 degrees in a circle. In navigation, 0 is straight north, 90 is east, 180 is south, 270 is west. In this case, he was instructed to fly basically southeast. The takeoff runway was 01, so it points a degree right of north, which is why he had to turn back to the southeast over the lake.
6. "METARs" stands for Meteorological Aerodrome Reports. The METAR/weather, as a pilot posted on Airliners.Net: "... just after 11amCST, was cool, gusty, and low 1,300 ft. ceilings." Winds from the north. Ceiling is the height from the ground to the base of the lowest cloud layer. Once he hit 1,300 feet, he was in Instrument Flying Conditions (IFC) operating by Instrument Flying Rules (IFR). Yes, flying has many, many acronyms.
7. There is no such thing as "black boxes," a term that is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. The Flight Data Recorder (FDR) and Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) are ORANGE for visibility and they will be a high priority for the recovery teams. They are sealed and can last for quite awhile underwater. And call 'em orange boxes for god's sake.

B. The investigation: The National Transportation Safety Board has sole and ultimate investigative authority for accidents involving air, rail, highway, marine and pipeline. They issue a finding of probable cause; this is not admissible in any court of law as "evidence," but is used as the basis for the Board to issue recommendations to those involved, including the FAA, airlines, general aviation, airports, cities, manufacturers and so on. Those do not have the force of law and are often ignored by, say, the FAA and airlines because they don't want to spend the money involved. However, you are safer in the air than on the road to the airport thanks to the work of the CAB before 1967 and the NTSB since, thanks to it issuing safety guidance and recommendations which have actually been adopted. The safety we enjoy now was bought in blood.

C. The NTSB probable cause ruling and report usually takes around one-two years. Some crashes are more cut and dried and the NTSB chairman will say, "It appears this happened, but until the final meeting, we won't know." Cessna, local law enforcement, Pratt and Whitney-the engine manufacturer, the instruments manufacturer, etc. etc., will all have the opportunity to weigh in. There will be hearings and witnesses will be called, but they are not trials.

Examples: Braniff flight 250 crashed on 6-Aug-1966 near Falls City, NE. The first NTSB formal meeting with testimony was conducted in December, 1966. Probable cause report came out in May, 1968. When Air France 447 crashed on 1-June-2009, probable cause wasn't issued by the Brazilian authority until 5-July-2012. But airliner crashes are far more important and lengthy than private jets like this one. And AF447 was very complicated.

(Side-note: This crash was also investigated by Dr. Ted Fujita on behalf of British Aircraft Corporation. The flight went down in tornadic conditions. Dr. Fujita began to develop his Fujita Scale of Tornado Intensity from this crash and beyond. We still use it today to rate tornadoes as EF-0 to EF-5. The deaths of 42 people and more led to this and other tornado safety improvements. Again, our greater safety, bought in blood.

 C. [Speculation] From the airspeed/course/altitude plots, it appears that as he turned over the lake, he was flying at 2,800 feet and 226 knots. He then sped up to 259 knots and then 293 knots then 305 knots while losing 1,000 feet of altitude. He pitched back up to 2,900 feet and sped up, but then lost full control and was last plotted at 1,900 feet going 243 knots. This was followed by the immediate fall into the lake.

D. [Mostly Speculation] The "alarm warnings" heard on the ATC recording were, according to Cessna Citation pilots posting elsewhere, sounds consistent with a warning to the pilot to turn off the engine igniters after takeoff, not that anything was wrong. He was probably so overwhelmed doing everything alone that he was unable to attend to turning off the engine igniters. It's like once your barbecue grill is lit, you can stop pressing the igniter button.

E. FAA confirms there was only one pilot on board. This would indicate Brandon was not considered a qualified pilot for the purposes of this flight. But being an owner/operator flying your own jet means you can get in trouble very, very quickly by yourself and with no qualified pilot in the right seat to help you, you get quickly overcome in a rapid emergency with no altitude or airspeed to recover an upset.

F. Solo jet flying is common; it's not terribly smart, but is done in situations like a ferry flight to a maintenance base. Not for flying your whole family. Most corporations and institutions have long banned leadership from flying together on the same flight. The cult has just discovered why.

Both Gothardism and aviation are among my bugaboos/passions (along with the local angle), so this was a perfect storm for me. Thanks for reading this numbingly long thing. I appreciate the site and its openness. ?