Fundy Reaction Responses to Smuggar's Guilty Verdict

[onekidanddone]

34 minutes ago, adidas said:

It actually disqualifies JimBob from any type of ministry:

1 Timothy 3:4-5

He (a church leader) must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children obedient, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?

Going by this PP should have stepped down after the texting scandal. 

[SpurgysingsHipHop]

Just wanna say, Jingr lead by her headship is a business woman. Distancing yourself from the mess is smart. The hard distance placed between the Vuolos and the Pest through that statement may have been genuine, however I firmly believe they are quite aware of their own potential marketability as a couple and what not distancing themselves from the doo Doo can potentially do to damage those opportunities. 

[Jinder Roles]

2 hours ago, gustava said:

So to be truly saved according to whatever they believe, Josh must repent and/or demonstrate struggled?  Do you have Biblical link for that?  Or does it link to Calvin?  Again, not being snarky, just genuinely interested.

Yes, to be truly saved one must sincerely repent. But also a “true” (ugh) Christian would be striving to make godly (according to them) choices. 
 

God can choose to save anyone, so Josh can be saved. Any evangelical would abide by that statement. 

Arminians would say he needs to repent (his own choice). Calvinists would say he needs to repent (if he does and is transformed by the grace of God then he is part of the elect). I don’t know all the doctrinal ins-and-outs but basically Josh needs to repent lol. 
 

How Christians view salvation depends on the denomination. Salvation doctrines get tricky because the logic of it often breaks down if you think too hard. 
 

Examples of Bible verses:
Ephesians 2:8-9

John 3:16

Romans 10: 9-10

 

[Freejin]

1 hour ago, Mama Mia said:

Good for Jason. And he’s still at home with the family? Very good. He looked really upset at the trial, and he’s only a couple years younger than Joy, so I’m sure they were close growing up. Plus whatever sister -mom was assaulted.

really, I think they’ve all done an amazing job in their responses. While absolutely no one ever proclaimed his innocence- they obviously would have very much hoped it was a mistake, especially once they heard the horrendous details.
People are talking about how they aren’t calling out their parents — but what I’ve noticed is that the wording is very noticeably calling for support and healing and prayers for all victims, and Anna, and the M’s, and maybe a generic wider family /everyone hurt - but NOT specifically saying - “ my prayers also for my parents who are grieving their son who has caused them pain” or anything remotely specific to them. Or even just an “ I love my family, growing up our parents did their best, this has caused them pain” Which strikes me as —- unusual. 
 

It seems they keep asking for prayers for “Josh’s family” (Anna and the kids) but not the Duggar senior family (the OG Duggar family if you will).  

[Jinder Roles]

On the Vuolo statements: 

It is one of the more stronger stances against Josh. However I don’t think Jinger is sticking it to her parents because: 

A) It’s such biblically based critique. Even Boob and Meech can’t argue with the Bible. 
 

B.) Nobody can justify or minimize Josh’s actions this time. 
 

C) Jinger is really close to Michelle and values her opinion strongly. 
 

JB is probably annoyed that he can’t control all of the statements as much as he wishes. But he can’t disagree with the sentiment. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Trace and Alyssa Bates liked Jinger and Jeremy's statement.  Interesting

Jessa, Jill, and Joy did too.  I feel like we're witnessing a real moment here...a shift in real time.

Edited December 11, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[SassyPants]

12 minutes ago, SpurgysingsHipHop said:

Just wanna say, Jingr lead by her headship is a business woman. Distancing yourself from the mess is smart. The hard distance placed between the Vuolos and the Pest through that statement may have been genuine, however I firmly believe they are quite aware of their own potential marketability as a couple and what not distancing themselves from the doo Doo can potentially do to damage those opportunities. 

I don’t see these folks as being successful in business at all. Everything they’ve tried beyond the influencer gig has been unsuccessful. I do not think either of them have the knowledge, energy or tenacity to be successful, long term in the business world. Even the effort at being an influencer is half assed. Jinger’s work reality is her family was paid to live their lives in front of the camera because her parents had 19 kids. No one is going to pay either Jinger or Jeremy to do anything at this point. They have few skills and are not doing anything “entertaining” that other people would be willing to plop down hard earned money to watch or listen to. I imagine the future will be rough until they get their expectations and egos in check

[HarryPotterFan]

I’m a few pages behind, but some thoughts before I get distracted and end up more behind: 

I’m loving the statements from Jill/Derick and Jinger. The Dillard statement is such an excellent way to say “fuck you, mom and dad!” using the Bible. Insulting them I the only language they know. Letting them know they are failures in the eyes of Jesus  and no better than their POS son. Chef’s kiss. Jinger’s statement focuses on Smuggar and doesn’t mention her parents but is also an excellent fuck you. Saying he’s not a Christian and going to hell is the biggest fuck you a Fundie could make.

Bravo. I hope they can support each other over the distance apart 

6 hours ago, fluffernutter said:

COMPLETELY off topic but remember that one time Ben thought he would try rapping? 🤣 To this day I laugh remembering the cringe. 

  Hide contents

 

I hope I did this right, mods if I didn't my apologies. 

Spurgeon is like, “I can’t even talk yet and I’m a better rapper than my dad.” If I was Spurgeon that clip would be enough of a reason to pack my bags and never look back the soon as I turn 18. 

[Smee]

1 hour ago, Doogie said:

Having grown up in a Southern Baptist church, that is what they believe. I have always felt this was strange though - that you could spend much of your life bring a “sinner”, and then you publicly profess your faith and ask Jesus into your heart and then Boom! You are saved. 

It's because of the belief that we are ALL sinners. From Romans 3:

Quote

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

This is where you get the problematic "sin flattening" that we've talked about on fj before. If you've lied to your parents and eaten an extra slice of cake, that's a sin and it separates you from God, but if you repent and turn to Jesus, by grace you will be saved. If you've led an army to murder a thousand people and encouraged the rape of children, that's a sin and it separates you from God, but if you repent and turn to Jesus you will be saved.

But you are supposed to stop it. Which is where JinJer's statement comes in, and the idea that someone who knowingly continues to "live in sin" can't have truly been saved, because if they were, God would prompt them to change their behaviour. Romans 6:

Quote

 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

 

[Pleiades_06]

4 hours ago, HereComesTreble said:

FYI, The Leaving Eden podcast released a post-verdict episode. It’s a former fundie’s podcast. I believe her name is Sadie Anderson. 

Sadie Carpenter. I’m a big fan. 

[Cam]

42 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Yes, to be truly saved one must sincerely repent. But also a “true” (ugh) Christian would be striving to make godly (according to them) choices. 

God can choose to save anyone, so Josh can be saved. Any evangelical would abide by that statement. 

Arminians would say he needs to repent (his own choice). Calvinists would say he needs to repent (if he does and is transformed by the grace of God then he is part of the elect). I don’t know all the doctrinal ins-and-outs but basically Josh needs to repent lol. 
How Christians view salvation depends on the denomination. Salvation doctrines get tricky because the logic of it often breaks down if you think too hard. 

Examples of Bible verses:
Ephesians 2:8-9

John 3:16

Romans 10: 9-10

My personal belief is that a true God deity would not require the complexity of all the above doctrines. I’m a reasonably intelligent person but keeping everything straight about all those rules in religion does not register in my brain. I never understood Catholicism which I was raised in and even as I later leaned on Pentecostal beliefs I still couldn’t make myself adhere strictly to all its teachings.  When I began to see myself as agnostic and not ruling out atheism, so much of my confusion lifted. Everything seemed much clearer.

[DCM]

39 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Trace and Alyssa Bates liked Jinger and Jeremy's statement.  Interesting

Jessa, Jill, and Joy did too.  I feel like we're witnessing a real moment here...a shift in real time.

As of now also included is: Micheal/Brandon Keilen and Claire Duggar, 

[MedicineWoman]

Honestly the only family statement I'm impressed with is the Dillard's because of their mention of being lied to. Condemning Josh and his actions should not be that hard even for fundies. CSAM is universally revolting to all belief systems. The vuolo statement read to me as very defensive of Christianity and not wanting people to be turned off because of Josh. What would actually impress me is a criticism of IBLP. I don't expect them to do that nor do I think they have any obligation to at this time but condemnation of Josh is the bare minimum and I'm not convinced it shows any movement in their beliefs.

[Sister Mozz]

33 minutes ago, DCM said:

As of now also included is: Micheal/Brandon Keilen and Claire Duggar, 

Claire Duggar? Ma Spivey's daughter? That's shocking to me.

[Beermeet]

39 minutes ago, Cam said:

My personal belief is that a true God deity would not require the complexity of all the above doctrines. I’m a reasonably intelligent person but keeping everything straight about all those rules in religion does not register in my brain. I never understood Catholicism which I was raised in and even as I later leaned on Pentecostal beliefs I still couldn’t make myself adhere strictly to all its teachings.  When I began to see myself as agnostic and not ruling out atheism, so much of my confusion lifted. Everything seemed much clearer.

Totally!!!!  Same.  

Cheers 😊

[ToriAmos]

Did anyone 'like' the Dillard's statement?

[Bastet]

I have been modest in my expectations of the Duggars’ responses to the guilty verdict. I totally expected that one or more would go all Q Anon and claim that Josh was clearly a victim of a conspiracy controlled by a left wing cabal holed up in the basement of a DC pizza parlor. That none have is gratifying, though I know that it’s early yet and the memory of evidence both horrifying and undeniable will fade.

 But so far, damn! They will continue to hold and act on beliefs that i find despicable, but still,  the verdict may offer them a little more air and sunlight than they had before, and then, who knows?

[adidas]

2 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

Going by this PP should have stepped down after the texting scandal. 

Absolutely.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

I wonder if Bill Gothard will release a statement. He used to make statements that a young acolyte posted for him. I wouldn't pay him a penny, but I would be curious how he would react. Gothard deserves some blame here as well and I have some petty satisfaction that he lived to see this.

[zee_four]

9 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

That was some note—3 pages, bible quotes and hormones.  How could he resist.😉

LOL. I was a firecracker in high school.  One of the first freshman section editors of the school paper, I wrote a 10 paper for freshman English (our teacher was gay and out but not directly at school it was 2002) on biblical support for homosexuality and abortion. I got a C because I spent the first half of the paper debunking literal translations of the Bible and how distorted English versions especially KJV are from the original Koné Greek, Aramaic and Biblical Hebrew like how the Red Sea has also been interpreted as reed seas which were fairlult plentiful in the area or so I read.

Anyway then I transitioned something like, if you still believe in the Bible literally (my tone implied ... you idiots) then here is support for homosexuality and abortion. Ii was upset I thought I did great and worked my scrawny tall butt off but he said trying not to laugh, you can't spend half your paper debunking your source material and then insulting anyone who still believes in it then making your argument. In retrospect duh. It was a good lesson to learn.

One of my many suspensions was the day or two after the invasion of Iraq for making a shirt with an American flag cut into a swastika pinned with safety pins and wrote Heil Bush. I was still 14.

My intentions were good but in retrospect I see where I went wrong. I still shouldn't have been punished for freedom of speech but I did cross the line with the swastika. Again another thing in retrospect that makes tons of sense that didn't at the time.

My boyfriend was a tall pale lanky sweetheart who played guitar in a punk ska band. We dated for years, broke up were still friends and went to prom together,  and we saw each other 5 years later and went on a Montana, Banff and Calgary, BC and Glacier road trip. He got married shortly after and still lives in Montana running a restaurant that has turned into a bar and punk music venue.

Back then we followed Anti Flag, The Lawrence Arms, Five Iron Frenzy, Streetlight Manifesto. I went to Punk Against Bush that summer. I was an angry undiagnosed bipolar 1 with psychotic mania. I was incredibly conscientious but I was freaking 14, 15 years old and was like a bull in a China shop. 

Ive definitely mellowed out and can look back and be like what was I thinking but laugh and support my young teenage self. I actually also went to Punk Against Trump a few years ago, stirring some of that anger that is sometimes righteous 15-20 years later. Sometimes I wish I had that drive and idealism, but never want to truffle again like I did. Turning to drugs because my episodes pushed everyone away. 

But as weird as that letter sounds, it worked and for all the abuse and crap I went through later in life, my first boyfriend who we lost our virginity to each other was incredibly sweet and we stayed together for awhile. Almost my last bit of innocense which tells you a lot about my life if Bible supported teenage sex was my innocent phase. 

[marmalade]

1 hour ago, ToriAmos said:

Did anyone 'like' the Dillard's statement?

It was posted on their blog, so we can't compare. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Jinger left one cult for a marginally better one. Keep in mind MacArthur held services during the Pandemic and scoffed at distancing and masks for safety. Keep in mind MacArthur thinks that anxiety and depression can be prayed away and don't need psychological or psychiatric help. Keep in mind MacArthur attacked Beth Moore and thinks women shouldn't be allowed to speak in churches. Keep in mind that MacArthur thinks the women leaders make the people they lead vulnerable.

I think Jinger left IBLP and the Duggars for a much better life. She is still fundie. On the plus side, her current group isn't quiverfull. They believe in education and they are moderate compared to IBLP. On the negative side, they still see women as lesser.

If I’ve said it once on FJ I’ve said it a million times. Once you’ve been in one cult, you’re more likely to join another. She’s been primed since birth to have a cult mentality. It’s her norm. It’s no surprise to me she left one for another. 

[MarblesMom]

On 12/9/2021 at 4:54 PM, clueliss said:

I’m waffling in where to put this (because pastorfromok is NOT fundie, I’m found him on deconstructing Exvangelical tiktok 

 

I LOVE this guy!   Calls it like it is!

 

[SamanthasMom]

I think Christmas will give some insight on how to interpret these statements. If everyone is at the TTH house like nothing happened, I will think this was mostly distancing from Josh. The Dillards and Vuolos are the exceptions since they were moving away from the official narrative long before the verdict.

If though we start to see the adult children stay more with their own families, I will be more hopeful they are really looking at the bigger issues in the family and questioning their parents and IBLP. So far, I don’t think we have any real signs of the latter.

[Jrodseyeliner]

3 minutes ago, SamanthasMom said:

I think Christmas will give some insight on how to interpret these statements. If everyone is at the TTH house like nothing happened, I will think this was mostly distancing from Josh. The Dillards and Vuolos are the exceptions since they were moving away from the official narrative long before the verdict.

If though we start to see the adult children stay more with their own families, I will be more hopeful they are really looking at the bigger issues in the family and questioning their parents and IBLP. So far, I don’t think we have any real signs of the latter.

Ma Spivey will be taking in Justin and some of the howlers!!