Fundy Reaction Responses to Smuggar's Guilty Verdict

[FunFunFundie]

6 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

Going by this PP should have stepped down after the texting scandal. 

People brought this up at the time, and those people were kicked out of the church. I think it’s part of why PP was so adamant that they did nothing wrong. Don’t worry, though, I’m sure those boys will do worse.

[formergothardite]

6 hours ago, Jinder Roles said:

Calvinists would say he needs to repent (if he does and is transformed by the grace of God then he is part of the elect).

I always found the predestination theology one of the most harsh. Basically if you weren’t predetermined to be saved then you were born with zero chance of salvation. So if Josh could have been prevented from doing these things through salvation, but he isn’t part of the elect then according to their beliefs he never really stood a chance. So it kind of sounds like it is more of God’s fault if you follow that line of thinking. I don’t, just to be clear. Josh is 100 percent to blame.

5 hours ago, MedicineWoman said:

The vuolo statement read to me as very defensive of Christianity and not wanting people to be turned off because of Josh. What would actually impress me is a criticism of IBLP. I

Yes, I do think that at least Jeremy is very concerned about his image and how it reflects on their belief system that a predator was in their midst and the only one who did something was the government. It isn’t a good look that their pastor rants that gay people are a threat to children when the real threat was one of their own.  They have chosen the No True Scotsman fallacy, which isn’t surprising.

5 hours ago, Smee said:

But you are supposed to stop it. Which is where JinJer's statement comes in, and the idea that someone who knowingly continues to "live in sin" can't have truly been saved, because if they were, God would prompt them to change their behaviour. Romans 6:

And this is where things get concerning. What happens if Josh is a model prisoner, claims to get for real saved and when he is released acts like he is changed? He might get better at hiding stuff, so are they going to accept that he is “saved” and salvation has changed him? How can they know? They can’t. They have spent years thinking a gay couple who volunteers to feed the homeless is dangerous and destined to hell(according to their pastor), but until the government caught him, they thought Josh was going to heaven. Clearly their beliefs don’t help them spot the real predators.  I hope no matter how he acts in the future, none of them ever buy the “God has changed me” line. 

[St.Clara]

16 hours ago, louisa05 said:

Lori has spoken: 

Presumably her reaction to Bobye Holt’s testimony was to pretend it doesn’t exist. 

 

While I expect nothing short of this from Lori I have to say for just once that I feel generally very disturbed by those arguments along the lines of: Josh is a creep but the rest of the children are seemingly fine, so don´t blame the parents.

When you hit a school bus while driving drunk* and one of the children is killed in that accident you don´t get to say: „Well, the other kids survived and some of them are not even injured, so it probably wasn´t that bad. And that one child was probably weak and sickly anyway even before my car hit it, and so that obviously wasn´t my fault.“

STOP MAKING EXCUSES. YOU KILLED A CHILD.

And yes, in my opinion, Josh is dead, in a way. I think that every baby who is born brings a special gift to the world. Caregivers are responsible for supporting him or her in becoming aware of that. We will never know what Josh´s gift to this world might have been. They destroyed it.

And it´s true, Jill, for example, seems to be doing amazingly well, in spite of all she had to go through. But the credit for that should go to her, not to her parents. Abusers should not be credited for the survival skills of the people they abused.

 

*I am saying "driving drunk" for a reason. Parents will, of course, always make mistakes because they are human. That is not my point. But JB and M were/are abusive parents. Even in case they were not aware of that, originally: that message was being delivered to them in a very clear way, over and over. They just refused to read it. They refuse to read it even now.

[FunFunFundie]

The Duggars (and many of the others we follow here) have made a literal living based on the following premise: if you take relatively extreme measures, follow a strict interpretation of the Bible, and do as they do, your children will be Christian soldiers who never sway from under your control. The Maxwells wrote books about it. PP literally said that there IS a parenting manual, the Bible, and it guarantees a certain outcome. The Duggars consider their visibility their ministry.

You don’t get to live like that and then, when somebody strays, say “well, some kids are bad.”

The Duggars are abusive. But they’ve also been duping others into that same lifestyle. So no, Lori, this isn’t a case of a bad thing happening to good people. The Duggars didn’t just abuse their own kids, they convinced untold others to do the same, and their promise was bullshit all along.

[St.Clara]

9 hours ago, Beermeet said:

I agree.  Losing control of an arrow in their quiver is a big deal!   It looks bad and is risky for the cult.  

How can there be a statute on child sexual assault?  Any really but specifically child.  Because,  they may need to grow up before being able to do something about it legally.  I don't get it, that's not fair at all.  So, if you're 3, you better get it together by 8?  Wtf?!

You are absolutely right. That is why in Germany the law was changed in 2015. So now the statute of limitations for sexual assualt begins when the victim turns 30, and then it´s 5-20 years, depending on the specific charges. So here you have time until you are 35 (at least) in order to take legal action.

[sableduck]

I grew up fundie.  Jinger’s statement is basically fundie speak for enjoy hell, as$hole.

I don’t expect any of them to discuss their parents publicly yet.  That’s another pain, admitting what an absolute failure your parents were, and one they may not be ready to make public yet—or ever.  None of these statements, even JB and Michelle’s, are alluding to them thinking Josh is wrongfully convicted.  My guess is that JerJing came out and said what everyone else is thinking. Derick tried to couch it in classy terms, and Jing used Bible verses, but they’re all really saying about the same thing.  This family, other than maybe Anna, is glad justice was finally served.

[Galbin]

Jason's reshare of Jinger's statement is no longer on his Instagram. Or was it on his stories and has now been automatically deleted?

[snarkopolis]

13 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

I truly do not understand Christians.

They aren't Christians.

 

[imokit]

38 minutes ago, Galbin said:

Jason's reshare of Jinger's statement is no longer on his Instagram. Or was it on his stories and has now been automatically deleted?

It was a story.  With an I agree and Jeremy Vuolo under it.  It was never a post.

[BernRul]

It sounds like some people won't be satisfied until the kidaults literally say "fuck my parents."

Harshly condemning  Josh is absolutely going against the parents, or at least JB. What has JB done recently? Gone to court to publicly defend Josh in his testimony and throw his 4 daughters under the bus, and also release a statement that still professes love for Josh. What do we know about JB? He is such a control freak that he wouldn't let his daughters hold their boyfriends' hands until they were engaged and made the suitors fill out a long ass questionnaire.  He made his children, including his abused daughters,  go on TV to publicly support Josh and downplay their own sexual abuse.

Jill and Jinger are defying the official party line. They have no love for Josh, no vague comments about the truth coming out; Jinger especially is basically telling him he's going to hell. This is a big deal, and while it still should be taken with a big pinch of salt, does go in line with the rumor about Jeremy telling his prayer group the Duggar children were being manipulated and that 2 sisters were disowned. 

As for explicitly condemning their extremely controlling and manipulative parents, Jinger might be worried about the effect that will have on her brothers and sisters, most of whom she probably still loves very much. I doubt she wants to be completely cut off from them. 

[CanadianMamam]

50 minutes ago, Galbin said:

Jason's reshare of Jinger's statement is no longer on his Instagram. Or was it on his stories and has now been automatically deleted?

It is still there for me. It is in his stories.

[lizzybee]

14 hours ago, gustava said:

I thought they were saved through the blood of the lamb and accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.  So couldn't the perv say he'd accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior and his "church" would have to accept that?  Not being snarky.  Serious theological question.

Ok so in reformed theology you're dead in sin and the whole idea of Jesus saving you when you're drowning in sin is rejected. You've already drowned and are dead indeed.  The jig is up for you unless God does something. Salvation is God's doing, and has nothing to do with you. You, sinful being as you are, cannot accept or desire salvation unless God places the desire in you first and he does not do this for everyone. If you read Jinger and Jeremy's book he references quite a lot that his theology was very different from the Duggar family's and I expect this was the thing that JB, JB's pastor, and Jeremy kept going around and around about because those of the IFB persuasion would say you must break your own heart and seek the free salvation offered to you. Reformed says you aren't capable of doing that, sinful being that you are.*

There are, according to the bible, people who would seek to profess Christ that are not of Christ and will lead others astray and hurt them. J&J seem to have determined indeed that Josh is not a true Christian, but a person who is going along with the rest of them for his own reasons and benefits. Indeed, even those who are not of the reformed persuasion identify that at some point a person who is raised in a Christian home must at some point stop living off of their parents' faith and determine what they believe themselves. If you believe you seek your own salvation, well that's what you must do. If you believe that God seeks you, and not the other way around, it'll be this point that you'll fall away or display signs of a lack of salvation if God has not indeed sought you. Either way, they can draw the same conclusion with Josh: that someone that has behaved as he has done, doesn't actually believe what they believe, because if he did, he wouldn't be able to do the things he has done and continue to lie about whether he's done them and be so spectacularly without remorse or call himself a Christian. 

Of course there's no way to know what Josh really believes or what is going through his mind ever. I'm merely explaining what they're likely thinking here based on what they have said. 

*I feel like this is the logical next question so I'll go ahead and answer it. Many people who hear the idea of election are really upset by it because how can a good God accept damnation for some and save others according to his own prerogative. The answer I have seen over and over is that God is both just and merciful. Those who are sent to hell are receiving Justice for their sins and those that God has offered salvation have received Mercy. Go read Romans Chapter 9 if you want to further see where they're getting these ideas. 

If you hate this, remember I'm just answering your questions and please don't shoot the messenger. 🤪

Edited December 11, 2021 by lizzybee
typo

[HerNameIsBuffy]

23 minutes ago, lizzybee said:

Ok so in reformed theology you're dead to sin and the whole idea of Jesus saving you when you're drowning in sin is rejected. You've already drowned and are dead indeed.  The jig is up for you unless God does something. Salvation is God's doing, and has nothing to do with you. You, sinful being as you are, cannot accept or desire salvation unless God places the desire in you first and he does not do this for everyone. If you read Jinger and Jeremy's book he references quite a lot that his theology was very different from the Duggar family's and I expect this was the thing that JB, JB's pastor, and Jeremy kept going around and around about because those of the IFB persuasion would say you must break your own heart and seek the free salvation offered to you. Reformed says you aren't capable of doing that, sinful being that you are.*

There are, according to the bible, people who would seek to profess Christ that are not of Christ and will lead others astray and hurt them. J&J seem to have determined indeed that Josh is not a true Christian, but a person who is going along with the rest of them for his own reasons and benefits. Indeed, even those who are not of the reformed persuasion identify that at some point a person who is raised in a Christian home must at some point stop living off of their parents' faith and determine what they believe themselves. If you believe you seek your own salvation, well that's what you must do. If you believe that God seeks you, and not the other way around, it'll be this point that you'll fall away or display signs of a lack of salvation if God has not indeed sought you. Either way, they can draw the same conclusion with Josh: that someone that has behaved as he has done, doesn't actually believe what they believe, because if he did, he wouldn't be able to do the things he has done and continue to lie about whether he's done them and be so spectacularly without remorse or call himself a Christian. 

Of course there's no way to know what Josh really believes or what is going through his mind ever. I'm merely explaining what they're likely thinking here based on what they have said. 

*I feel like this is the logical next question so I'll go ahead and answer it. Many people who hear the idea of election are really upset by it because how can a good God accept damnation for some and save others according to his own prerogative. The answer I have seen over and over is that God is both just and merciful. Those who are sent to hell are receiving Justice for their sins and those that God has offered salvation have received Mercy. Go read Romans Chapter 9 if you want to further see where they're getting these ideas. 

If you hate this, remember I'm just answering your questions and please don't shoot the messenger. 🤪

I really appreciate you sharing insight into this.  I've been following these people for a long time but the nuances of theology are fascinating but definitely not intuitive for those of us with no experience in reformed beliefs.

[MamaJunebug]

@lizzybee, can’t thank you enough for your info about reformed theology.  It is not sounding like the Christianity I learned in the Lutheran tradition, so I’m going to re-read very carefully.  
 

I’m officially an old, and mellowing, but a significant part of my soul wants to rage against the people who’ve scrummed up so terribly the simple message of G-D’s love for humanity.  For their screwed-up behaviors that cast the beauty of the beliefs as twisted.  I just don’t know, anymore. But I will know. Thank you again. 

[Galbin]

I remember being moved by one of the lost boys faces as they left court, but because they all seem so similar to me I had to go back and look. Well it was Jason. The  picture of him on the 6th of December at 14:48 in the Sun's blog really says it all.

Wish I knew how to paste the photo in here!

 

 

[SassyPants]

7 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

If I’ve said it once on FJ I’ve said it a million times. Once you’ve been in one cult, you’re more likely to join another. She’s been primed since birth to have a cult mentality. It’s her norm. It’s no surprise to me she left one for another. 

Jinger, in particular, is 100% a follower. I think she gravitates to others doing the thinking for her. She is very ripe for being attracted to a cult.

[livinginthelight]

2 hours ago, snarkopolis said:

They aren't Christians.

 

As tempted as I am to agree with you, they are in fact Christians.

CS Lewis said it best, I think. I forget which book it was in, but he said we shouldn't get into the business of figuring out who is and who isn't a Christian based on their theology or actions. Anyone who believes in Jesus is a Christian. There are good Christians and bad Christians. The Duggars are clearly abysmal Christians with horrible beliefs but they are Christians.

@TuringMachine One reason it's so hard to understand Christians is precisely because of the above. I'm a Christian and I have much more in common with the FJ peeps (including the atheists) than I do with the Duggars.

Edited December 11, 2021 by livinginthelight

[nokidsmom]

1 hour ago, BernRul said:

Jill and Jinger are defying the official party line. They have no love for Josh, no vague comments about the truth coming out; Jinger especially is basically telling him he's going to hell. This is a big deal, and while it still should be taken with a big pinch of salt, does go in line with the rumor about Jeremy telling his prayer group the Duggar children were being manipulated and that 2 sisters were disowned. 

As for explicitly condemning their extremely controlling and manipulative parents, Jinger might be worried about the effect that will have on her brothers and sisters, most of whom she probably still loves very much. I doubt she wants to be completely cut off from them.

I expected both Jill and Jinger would be pretty supportive about the truth coming out and showing basically zero support for their brother.  However one thing with Jill: she and Derick both were not afraid to stand up for themselves, knowing full well what that would do to the family relations.   With Jinger, I think she is somewhat on the fence with regards to her family.  She wants her distance, she doesn't approve (and Jeremy obviously doesn't either) but I think she's afraid of being cut off from her family, even though Jill has managed some contact.  Which shows she wouldn't be totally cut off but she's still afraid of it.  I think she dances between appeasing Jeremy and trying to maintain ties. 

[Mela99]

As tempted as I am to agree with you, they are in fact Christians.
CS Lewis said it best, I think. I forget which book it was in, but he said we shouldn't get into the business of figuring out who is and who isn't a Christian based on their theology or actions. Anyone who believes in Jesus is a Christian. There are good Christians and bad Christians. The Duggars are clearly abysmal Christians with horrible beliefs but they are Christians.
[mention=20422]TuringMachine[/mention] One reason it's so hard to understand Christians is precisely because of the above. I'm a Christian and I have much more in common with those on FJ than I do with the Duggars.

Gandhi said it best - I like your Christ. But not your Christians. They are nothing like your Christ.

[Satan'sFortress]

11 hours ago, MedicineWoman said:

Honestly the only family statement I'm impressed with is the Dillard's because of their mention of being lied to. Condemning Josh and his actions should not be that hard even for fundies. CSAM is universally revolting to all belief systems. The vuolo statement read to me as very defensive of Christianity and not wanting people to be turned off because of Josh. What would actually impress me is a criticism of IBLP. I don't expect them to do that nor do I think they have any obligation to at this time but condemnation of Josh is the bare minimum and I'm not convinced it shows any movement in their beliefs.

I agree with you. I thought it was very bold to make the "we've been lied to " statement. I am no Biblical scholar, and I do appreciate the FJ folks who are helping me understand the nuances of the verses that Jill and Jinger each posted. At first read for a non religious person, I connected with Jill's more,  and that made more of an impact on me. Jinger's statement was probably crafted for a fundie audience, but Jill's seems much more targeted to mainstream people. I didn't understand Jinger's until all y'all explained it to me.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, nokidsmom said:

I expected both Jill and Jinger would be pretty supportive about the truth coming out and showing basically zero support for their brother.  However one thing with Jill: she and Derick both were not afraid to stand up for themselves, knowing full well what that would do to the family relations.   With Jinger, I think she is somewhat on the fence with regards to her family.  She wants her distance, she doesn't approve (and Jeremy obviously doesn't either) but I think she's afraid of being cut off from her family, even though Jill has managed some contact.  Which shows she wouldn't be totally cut off but she's still afraid of it.  I think she dances between appeasing Jeremy and trying to maintain ties. 

Again, the difference is money. Having money or the solid skills to get a job that pays enough to live comfortably or lack there of, changes every thing. Money is a great motivator and decision maker. The Dillards have set themselves up for a secure future. They used the JB payout wisely, live in a supportive family environment in a low COL area. Conversely, the Vuolos, who  clearly have also received JB money, sold their home to move to one of the highest COL areas of the country and are not surrounded by family. Jeremy is also advancing his education, but his skills are far less marketable vs Derick’s. Add in the fact that the Vuolos like fancy material things and restaurant meals and you can see that they need far more money to survive. Who has $$$? Well, at the moment, JB does, so they do not want to cut off that needed supply. It’s too bad Jeremy didn’t choose a more marketable graduate degree. I can see lots of financial struggles in the Vuolos future. 
 

JB, M, Derick, Ben, Jeremy they can talk Jesus speak all day long, but let me tell you what they all really worship,  it’s $$$$$$$$$$. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by SassyPants

[Cam]

1 hour ago, Mela99 said:

Gandhi said it best - I like your Christ. But not your Christians. They are nothing like your Christ.

Omg. Totally this.^^^

***

The Dillards took care of any speculation why they were in court with their statement about wanting to hear the true facts because of all the lies they’d previously heard. I can imagine some gaslighting had occurred with JB saying one thing at one time then denying it or changing the story completely. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Cam

[St.Clara]

On 12/9/2021 at 11:58 PM, metheglyn said:

Jill and Derick have posted their statement: https://www.dillardfamily.com/2021/12/dillard-family-statement-on-josh-duggar-verdict-today/

I think this is clearly a criticism of her parents:

Quote

Moreover, “[h]e who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the Lord.” (Proverbs 17:15).  

This can´t be about Josh. He was obviously busy doing his horrible stuff but he has not publicly condemned nor justified anybody during the last years. (Nobody would have listened to him anyway.) This is about JB and M who justified the wicked (=Josh) and condemned the righteous (=Jill). This is the exact same thing that has been said over and over in this forum (imo), only in fundyspeak.

***

I have found an impressing comment by a Christian lady on Youtube: "To Jim Bob Duggar and Michelle Duggar from a CSA Survivor". It is hard to tell how „fundy“ she actually is but she seems to imply that she is believes in submitting to her husband, so rather fundy (imo). She posted this video shortly before the conviction but I still think it fits here.

Quotes:

„The J is for Jim Bob. It was not Jesus first. It was Jim Bob.“

„If I were your daughter I would never let you see your grandchildren again because YOU DON´T CARE.“

About the show:

„Talk about pimping out your children for a buck. Shame on you.“

„I personally pray you burn in hell.“

I put it in spoilers so it does not take so much space.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it81UJLjmMQ

 

The following quote from the comments I put in a spoiler because it is horrible (I think), trigger warning!!!:

Spoiler

Marly Smithsonian: „...They FAILED their daughters, Josh's wife and his children. I am also a survivor and we both know his kids have been through sexual abuse. Anna said Josh LOVED to change diapers, does anyone not understand? Then they should be taken away. I pray CPS opens a case for these children and allow them to come forward and charge the parents, if Josh does not get convicted. And NO, Biden didn't cause this, The Male Duggers did. The parents refused to obey the law, and the Bible states to obey the laws of the land. They also need to have charges and their underage kids need to be put somewhere safe.“

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by St.Clara

[nokidsmom]

53 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Again, the difference is money. Having money or the solid skills to get a job that pays enough to live comfortably or lack there of, changes every thing. Money is a great motivator and decision maker. The Dillards have set themselves up for a secure future. They used the JB payout wisely, live in a supportive family environment in a low COL area. Conversely, the Vuolos, who  clearly have also received JB money, sold their home to move to one of the highest COL areas of the country and are not surrounded by family. Jeremy is also advancing his education, but his skills are far less marketable vs Derick’s. Add in the fact that the Vuolos like fancy material things and restaurant meals and you can see that they need far more money to survive. Who has $$$? Well, at the moment, JB does, so they do not want to cut off that needed supply. It’s too bad Jeremy didn’t choose a more marketable graduate degree. I can see lots of financial struggles in the Vuolos future.

I was focusing more on the family relationship aspect of things in my post but yes, I agree completely that money is a factor here.  And you make good points about the Dillards' and Vuolos' respective financial situations and how that affects the need to make nice with the "family" aka JB in order to keep the $$$ coming in or being able to do without it along with cutting the strings that come attached in these situations.*

Actually I was surprised that the Vuolos moved to LA so Jeremy could pursue studies there. Moving to a HCOL area with no visible means of income that would support it had to come from somewhere and that had to be JB.  They seemed to be doing OK in Laredo and while I can understand Jeremy wanting to pursue his theological studies, at the same time I wondered how they were going to manage given their more fancier tastes in things plus a growing family.  I knew married seminarians with families in college and they were not living the life that Jinjer does.  Far from it.  Those families were definitely struggling.

I never thought Jeremy liked JB, he barely seems to tolerate him for Jinger's sake so why presumably put himself in a position where he's financially reliant on JB even in the short term?  Once Derick figured out the faustian bargain that is JB's fianancial support / control, he took steps to free both himself and Jill from it.   I thought Jeremy would steer clear of such a situation himself. 

*ETA:  There are members of Mr. No's family that take financial support from parents, even in the parents' retirement, because of the good life and fancy things it gives them.  In exchange there are expectations from Mom and Dad in terms of involvement / control and there is constant conflict because of money vs. control.  Mr. No and I have steered clear of this and while we live a less fancy life, "the poor relatives" in the family's view, we have the freedom that comes with that.  Freedom from the control and the conflicts.   And surviving.  And thriving.  That's what I see the Dillards doing and are better for it. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by nokidsmom

[hoipolloi]

3 hours ago, snarkopolis said:

They aren't Christians.

 

They are Christians. 

And please don't resort to saying they're fake Christians or somehow hold invalid beliefs. These people are real, and they identify and are identified as Christian (particularly by the media). If you are also a Christian, you need to reckon with this sizable part of your larger faith community. Dismissing them as inauthentic is not a solution to the major problems they have created for all of us in society at large as well as within their own denominations.